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Author Topic: Schismatic "traditionalist" groups AKA Groups to avoid at ALL cost  (Read 26783 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2002, 02:10:31 PM »

I might be in the minority here, but I don't think anyone can say that the "modernists" or the "traditionalists" are right.  The answer lies somewhere in the middle.  While modernism for the sake of modernism(or ecumenism) without any pastoral or liturgical reason is wrong, I would say that making a dogma out of everything from clerical facial hair to standing(seating) arrangements is also wrong.  There are serious issues that need to be realized, but I don't think Orthodoxy in America will ever deal with these problems as long as we have straw men to burn while we happily remain confident in our jurisdictionalism.

This is why the OCA needs ROCOR(and vice versa).  To help maintain the status quo of Orthodoxy without verging into extremism.  There are some things within the OCA that I consider incorrect modernism(modernism without a good reason) and there are also many in the ROCOR (mostly converts) who fulfill St. Ignatius Branchininov(sp?)'s critism of monks of the time: that they worship dried bread and peas, getting caught up in the externals but not in the reason for them(paraphrase).  

God bless you all.  The jurisdictions will soon unite or they will not.  If it is God's will, it may take 100 years for this to happen, which will be a short period in the history of the church.  I rejoice that it seems that Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox will soon come together in full communion.  My fondest wish is to see that same hope foster between the "traditional" and "mainline" jurisdictions.  O death, where is thy sting?
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« Reply #91 on: November 05, 2002, 02:23:34 PM »


AmatorDeus:

great post!  I agree 100%

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« Reply #92 on: November 05, 2002, 03:09:20 PM »

You honestly mean to tell me that what calendar one follows takes precendence over unity and christian love?

I don't think one need be an old calendarist to find serious defects in the new calendar.  It's a hybrid that wreaks havoc on the typikon.  The reason that the Russian Church doesn't use it is that it analyzed the matter very thoroughly early in the 20th century and found it to be unworkable.  

In addition, I have a hard time considering the treatment of Orthodox faithful in Greece who opposed the change as "christian love."

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« Reply #93 on: November 05, 2002, 03:30:10 PM »

So for your above question, perhaps it is one better asked of your own leaders. Ask them, "why was it and is it still so important to be aligned with the popes calendar when it has caused so much disunity, death, discord, and disfunctionality. Why have you done what you have?
What makes the Julian calendar (the calendar of the pagan emperor Julius Caesar) so important to the Church?  I believe that the answer lies in the fact that it was the CIVIC, Secular calendar of the Roman Empire.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It is simply an arbitrary measurement of time which the Church adopted.  The Julian calendar was scrapped by Roman Catholic ecclesiastical (and secular) authorities upon the realization that the Julian Calendar is quite inaccurate.  The Protestant nations resisted it's adoption, but with International trade and interaction, realized the folly of sticking with an inaccurate (and different) calendar, just to spite the Pope, and they eventually adopted the Gregorian Calendar.   Look at the confusion over dates in Russian history of the 20th century.  The October Revolution actually took place in November (new calendar).   Why can't the Church adopt the civic calendar in common use.  That's what the Christians in Rome did when they adopted the Julian Calendar in the first place.  There's nothing particularly holy about it.  And for that matter, the ancient Persian Church utilized the totally different Persian calendar, while in full communion with the Church of the Greco-Roman World.  The calendar we use is just a tool for measuring time.  Should the Church also resist the evil heresy of Daylight Savings Time as as well?

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« Reply #94 on: November 05, 2002, 03:36:23 PM »

There are a number of logistical and logical reasons to keep the Church on the Old Calendar including that it destroys the Typikon. A number of articles on why can be found here. I mean if Jews and other other religious groups can keep their earlier religious calendars, why not us? Its not like we are against the secular world using theor own secular calendar!

As for the evil of Daylight Savings Time, personally I despise it and would wholly support a ban of it by my city, state, country or Church! ;-) :-p God Bless!
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« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2002, 03:39:57 PM »

Despise, Nik?

That's some pretty strong words! Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: November 05, 2002, 03:45:10 PM »

LOL! At least I didn't anathemize it or call it a heretic! ;-) But I do think that it's in schism with my sense of time Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2002, 03:51:33 PM »

There are a number of logistical and logical reasons to keep the Church on the Old Calendar including that it destroys the Typikon.

I've read an article about this, and I thought it was cool how the Typikon and the old calendar worked so well.  But I've always wondered, since the Typikon was made back then with the current calendar, why the Typikon just couldn't be adapted to the current calendar in use today?  Is that such an impossibility?    

I mean if Jews and other other religious groups can keep their earlier religious calendars, why not us? Its not like we are against the secular world using theor own secular calendar!

Yes, but it is too easy to forget that the calendar in use by the secular world is a Christian calendar.  It isn't 2002 because the secular world said so.  It's 2002 because that is the year since the birth of Christ.  The world is using our calendar.  If Jews and other religious groups use their own religious calendars, that is because they are required for the calculation of their feasts which wouldn't go well on a Christian calendar.  But the "secular" calendar is a Christian calendar.  Is it, then, so bad to expect/hope that Christian feasts would be in sync with a Christian calendar?  OK, maybe people don't like the new calendar, or the way it was implemented, or both.  But, like it or not, that is what we all use.  I don't think anyone here would write a check today saying it is 23 October 2002.  You'd rightly write 5 November.  So if we are already using the secular calendar (which is a Christian calendar) for everything else, why not sanctify time by using that calendar?  Christmas is 25 December on the Old Calendar and the New, but OC 25 December falls on NC 7 January?  Why not just use 25 December?  

I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why the calendar is such an integral issue.  Perhaps some of you will call me a modernist, a monophysite, or something like that, but I am trying to understand, and the "OC only" crowd hasn't convinced me.            
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« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2002, 05:14:59 PM »

I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why the calendar is such an integral issue.

The "new" calendar is actually a hybrid of the Julian and Gregorian calendars--it retains the Julian Paschalion, but switced to the Gregorian for the Menaion.  Two examples of the problems it creates are:

1) some years the Apostles' Fast disappears.
2) some feasts are connected to both the Menaion and the Paschalion.  This year, St George fell during Lent, which made many of the hymns nonsense, because they speak of having just celebrated Pascha.  

There are a host of others, but these two stick out in my mind, since they happened this year.  I don't think it's so much about today being more holy as October 23 than it is as November 5, as it is about fiddling with something centuries old that developed in a rather amazing fashion and required no "fixing."  The Paschalion and the Menaion fit together hand in glove.  You can't go arbitrarily changing dates without causing some chaos in the celebration of the services.

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« Reply #99 on: November 05, 2002, 05:56:52 PM »

Perspective, people, perspective. The rite, with the typikon, menaion, etc. exists for the bene esse of the Church - it is not of the essence. It is a learning aid, not the learning. One can adopt a calendar that accurately marks the changing of the seasons, modify the rite accordingly, and be completely orthodox. I didn't say one necessarily should, just that one can.
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« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2002, 06:52:54 PM »

I've been wondering about this calendar issue...

It's said that the New Calendar destroys the integrity of the Menaion, etc.  What I'm wondering is why all those couldn't be reconciled with the New Calendar.  The only restriction on Pascha that I am aware of is that it must be after Passover.  

I'm a bit surprised that the Church adopted a pagan calendar and then rejected a Christian's revision of it (even though it be the Pope).  I sometimes wonder if resistance to the New Calendar is only because it's a "Papist Calendar".

I do agree that calendar reform should have been by consensus, and it is most unfortunate that the calendar issue is a divisive force in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2002, 10:29:20 PM »

The reason some are still honestly in question about the significance of the calendar change is because my repeated question was willfully ignored. And why?

The reason nobody dared answer my question is because they know full well only one answer would be even remotely acceptable, and that answer also happened to be the truth, and they do not like the truth.

The answer to the question of why the calendar was changed by a deposed Freemason had nothing to do with scientific accuracy, which would have been a completely useless undertaking from an ecclesiastical point of view. The real purpose of the calendar change was to move toward a union with the Western “Churches of Christ” (aka heresies). This is so evidenced by all the many other God and Christ defying tendencies of the innovators, who have since demonstrated their unequivocal hatred for anything handed to them by the Fathers.

When speaking of the last days, the prophet Daniel foretold that Antichrist will even "think to change times and laws" (Dan. 7,25).

One distinct and obvious manifestation is the ecumenist introduction of new “theological thought”. Thus we see new heretical statements of faith, contractual agreements slandering Christ, joint prayer, and disgusting displays of hypocrisy. The pile of their filth towers so high I could not even begin to illustrate it.

All of this is a denial of the Church and Christ. Those who follow these heretics, whether they realize it or not, are working against God and the overthrow of the Church. "If he neglect to hear the Church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican" (Mt. 18,17).

Therefore, the struggle of the traditional Orthodox Christians is as clear as the water in a mountain spring. We struggle to preserve Orthodoxy inviolate just as they received it from the Fathers and the Apostles. Like the gigantic flag hanging on the side of Esphigmenou on Mt. Athos declares to the Greek destroyers sent by “Patriarch” BartholomewGǪOrthodoxy or Death!
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« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2002, 10:46:10 PM »

Oh great, now the new calendarists are the anti-Christ. I wonder what conspiracy theory is next, maybe all of the Patriarchs have the mark of the beast on their head and we don’t know it?

But God Bless those Monks in Mt. AthosGǪ.
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« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2002, 11:39:29 PM »

Therefore, the struggle of the traditional Orthodox Christians is as clear as the water in a mountain spring. We struggle to preserve Orthodoxy inviolate just as they received it from the Fathers and the Apostles. Like the gigantic flag hanging on the side of Esphigmenou on Mt. Athos declares to the Greek destroyers sent by “Patriarch” BartholomewGǪOrthodoxy or Death!

Dear OOD,

On a lighter note, I always wondered where you got your screen name, and now I know.  Nice!  Cool
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« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2002, 11:56:19 PM »

Hypo Orthodox,

"Dan, I'm not Anastasios and I can't speak for him, but I find the term "Orthodox(y) in communion with Rome" out of place on this board.  You may use it on your Byzantine Forum to your heart's content, but here, IMHO, it has no place.  You may speak of "Eastern Catholic(ism) in communion with Rome" here, and no one will object, however."

Your comment is ludicrous.  The name of this forum is Orthodox-Catholic (in communion with Rome).  I don't really care how you think we ought to be defined.  I don't limit your definition of yourself and I don't care what you think of how we define ourselves.

Dan Lauffer



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« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2002, 12:00:10 AM »

Orthodoc,

"But lets be completely honest.  We all know that both you and Dan are here from the Byzantine Catholic Forum to troll.  So, maybe Nik is right - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

Rubbish!  Your comments only reflect that you are a snide know it all.  I am here because this section of the forum is titled "Orthodox-Catholic in communion with Rome.  That is what I am.  You are the troll here.

Dan Lauffer

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« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2002, 12:42:05 AM »

Lets chill with the irrelevant comments and keep the discussion on topic.

Dan I think an apology is necessary to Orthoman, that was quite an rude remark to make, especially publically.

and Orthoman I think an apology is necessary to Dan for calling him a troll.

Thanks,

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« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2002, 08:57:44 AM »

Bobby,

I would never argue with a lady.  Hence I will follow your instruction.  

Orthodoc, I apologize for calling you a troll.  However, I'm serious in my intention to speak as clearly as I can about the blessings of be Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2002, 10:27:46 AM »

[Your comment is ludicrous.  The name of this forum is Orthodox-Catholic (in communion with Rome).  I don't really care how you think we ought to be defined.  I don't limit your definition of yourself and I don't care what you think of how we define ourselves.]

And, based on that, why should we care what you think about us referring to you as a Uniate?

Orthodoc



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« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2002, 10:31:28 AM »


And, based on that, why should we care what you think about us referring to you as a Uniate?

Orthodoc


Oh, I don't know.  Maybe civility?  Maybe basic respect?  Maybe charity?  

This whole name calling thing is ridiculous to begin with.  For starters, this is the bloody Internet.  Nothing like a little anonymity to give people the courage to do things they wouldn't do face-to-face.  Computers are great things to hide behind.  And secondly, this is supposed to be a Christian forum.  Argue all you want about theology, but to stoop to name calling makes our Lord weep.  Maybe that's why it was raining here yesterday afternoon...
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« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2002, 10:33:21 AM »

Orthodoc,

"And, based on that, why should we care what you think about us referring to you as a Uniate?"

I don't.  I just consider the source.  Call us "sewer rats" if it makes you happy.  Calling names does not enhance understanding nor does it advance the truth.  If it makes you happy call us what you wish.  It means nothing to me.  

This section is reserved for Orthodox-Catholic in communion with Rome.  If you don't like it, don't post on this section.

Dan Lauffer



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« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2002, 10:41:04 AM »

Schultz,

Right you are.  Threads degenerate once their purpose is lost.  I wonder if it's time to close this one?  

Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2002, 11:02:02 AM »

Schultz,

Right you are.  Threads degenerate once their purpose is lost.  I wonder if it's time to close this one?  

Dan Lauffer

Dan, is THAT your purpose for posting on this thread that is dedicated to civil dialogue to promote understanding in Christian charity between [Eastern and Oriental] "Orthodox" Christians AND [Roman/Eastern] "Catholics in communion with Rome"? To be the one to suggest closing it?  

What you are interpreting as a hyphen in the title of this thread between "Orthodox" and "Catholic in communion with Rome" is not a hyphen: it is a dash.  Two distinct groups, i.e., one simply "Orthodox" and the other simply "Catholic in communion with Rome."  "Orthodox-Catholic in communion with Rome" is *NOT* the title of this thread.  We've gone over this quite thoroughly on this thread before you started posting here and arrived at a peaceful agreement.  Rome is not "orthodox" big "O."  So to be in communion with Rome cannot be "orthodox" big "O" from our perspective.  Please don't try to proselytize us to the contrary with your "Orthodox in communion with Rome" agenda.  However, if you want to use the small "o" in reference to yourself, I don't think many here would object.

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« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2002, 11:04:03 AM »

I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss relations between:

1.  Orthodox Christians
2.  Catholics in communion with Rome


I've never thought that Dan was a troll.  He is a Catholic, but a nice one.

From what I know, Dan likes to refer to himself as "Orthodox in communion with Rome".  Some of us may find that descriptor to be an oxymoron, but it's no excuse for bad behavior.  If that's how he wants to refer to himself, why make a big deal out of it.  Be courteous.

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« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2002, 11:16:00 AM »

//Origen (or should I say Joe):

D*mn!  Must have been the fake beard that gave me away! Cool

//But lets be completely honest.  We all know that both you and Dan are here from the Byzantine Catholic Forum to troll.  So, maybe Nik is right - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Personally, I come on my own.  I don't represent byzcath.org.  Why would you imply such a thing if you wish to be honest?  I agree with Dan.  This, I thought, is an Orthodox-Catholic Discussion board.  For you and others to refer to Byzantine Catholics as "trolls" is pretty disturbing.  What people call themselves is one thing; what they are called by others is another.  I have learned a lot here in only a short time.

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« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2002, 11:30:17 AM »

Dan Lauffer is certainly not a troll, but an idealistic small-o orthodox who is trying to be as Orthodox as possible in a Rome-centric Catholic system. Orthodoc and I fight over church labels but he's no troll either.
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« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2002, 12:23:22 PM »

Schultz:

From your last name I am assuming that you are neither what is called a 'cradle Orthodox' nor from a slavic back ground.  If I have this wrong I apologize to you.

To those of us who are Orthodox Catholic and from a slavic (some times Eastern Catholic) background these issues are much more than name calling.  In fact, they are sore spots because of the pain and confusion they inflicted upon our ancestors.

The whole formation of the Unia (Eastern Catholic Church) was initiated on our ancestors by the Roman Catholic Church and based on pressure, politics, and  deception.
Read the 33 articles of the  'Union of Brest' to see what life was like for our ancestors as Orthodox Catholics under Roman Catholic rule.  As such, they were not allowed to bring the Sacraments to the sick and dying,  ring the church bells
on Good Friday, hold processions during Holy Days. their monasteries and churches were being forcibly changed into Latin Rite RC,  they had taxation without  representation in the Senate ( See Article 12).  I could go on but you can read the entire document at -

http://www.archeparchy.ca/history/union_of_brest.htm#33

This will give you an idea of what life was like for them IN THEIR OWN LANDS  under Roman Catholic rule.  And give you a better idea why they signed the union with Rome which certainly wasn't for either theological or doctrinal reasons.

Since this document was signed in the 16th century and people were still basically illerate, the premise was that as long as everything looked the same and sounded the same the average peasant would never know that they were in fact no longer Orthodox but had become part of the Roman Catholic Church. Because they based everything on what they saw and heard when they attended Church. The word 'Pravoslavnie' (Orthodox) was still retained in the Liturgy.  But its meaning was changed by the now Eastern Catholic Church to justify its usage.  The goal was to gradually latinize them until they had become full fledged Latin Roman Catholics.  When the people questioned any slight change such as the  the commemoration of the Pope, etc. they were in many instances actually told that the Pope had become Orthodox!  That they were 'Orthodox In Communion with Rome' (rather than under its authority since the Pope was now Orthodox).  This included my own grandparents who came here as 'Greek Catholics'.  Many of the founders of my former parish and my present  parish came here at the turn of the century having no idea that they were not 'Pravoslavnie'  (Orthodox) but in fact, part of the Roman Catholic Church.  They were devoted to the Orthodox Catholic Church while not being part of it.  Others were aware of what had transpired but did not have the freedom to return to the Orthodox faith while still in europe (this included my grandparents).
 
Look how many of the Byzantine Catholics and Ukrainian Catholics here and else where react when you refer to them as part of the Roman Catholic Church or under the authority of Rome. or a Rite wthin the Papal Catholic Church structure. They deny it because they have bought the deception hook, line, and sinker.  Phrases like 'in communion with' rather than 'under the authority of', Sui Juris instead of  'Byzantine Rite of the Papal Catholic Church'.  After 400+ years they are still searching for an identity.  In just my life time alone they have gone from 'Greek Catholic', to either 'Byzantine Catholic' or 'Ukrainian Catholic' depending on the ethnic identity they adhered to, and now back to 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.  

Words are VERY IMPORTANT because they can be used to manipulate and deceive Schultz.  And thats why so many of us from a particular background will  challenge anyone who uses many of those same identities today.  This includes the terms "Orthodox In Communion With Rome' and giving the Roman Catholic Church exclusive rights to the word 'Catholic'.

I notice that whenever this type of  issue comes up it is shrugged off as 'name calling'.  Usually by those who don't have the emotional connection to the history behind it.  Dan is well aware of the reaction that 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' gets from some of us.  Yet he goes out of his way to use it.  You will notice that he never answers my questions except for insulting replies.  This latest one is mild compared to the private one he sent me through the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum which was my reason for leaving that forum.  Names that my mother would have washed my mouth out with soap for. And he used a Christian forum to send them to me.

I don't mean to start a feud here.  But felt I had to explain to some why this issue is a lot more than name calling.

If I have offended you by addresing this to you personally, I apologize.  I am just using your post as a way to try and explain the real issues behind this series of posts.

If we are to discuss Orthodox /Catholic (In communion with Rome) issues then we should be be prepared to discuss not only the theological, and dogmatic issues that separate us, but the emotional things as well.


Orthodoc
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« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2002, 12:44:44 PM »

[D*mn! Must have been the fake beard that gave me away! ]

Nah!  We all have our own style of writing.  You are no exception.  Actually it was a wild guess that turned out to be right on!

[Personally, I come on my own. I don't represent byzcath.org. Why would you imply such a thing if you wish to be honest?]

I don't remember implying that you represent the byzcath.org.  Just that you are a member and a poster there.

[This, I thought, is an Orthodox-Catholic Discussion board. For you and others to refer to Byzantine Catholics as "trolls" is pretty disturbing.]

Tha'ts kind of stretching a point, isn't it?  I don't think either I or anyone else referred to ALL Byzantine Catholics as trolls.  If that's the way you took it than I apologize.

[I have learned a lot here in only a short time.]

GOOD!  And on that note let me personally offer you a warm welcome.

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« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2002, 12:55:41 PM »

Orthodoc,

I understand the issues between the Unia and the Orthodox.  I know how hot blood can boil.  However, we as Christians are called to rise above this.  Of course, we can and do fail in this regard and fail quite often, especially when we have the protection of cyberspace and the semi-anonymity of the internet.  

I am not trying to downplay the importance of our particular ethnic traditions nor the history of strife between the Orthodox and the Catholics, especially of Slavic backgrounds.  I am trying to remind us all
(myself included) that we are emulate Christ in all things.  It is quite easy to toss words around when you don't have to look at the person one is directing them at.  It is very similar to road rage, where we have the protection of our two-ton automobiles and feel safe enough to flip the bird, wave our fists, and scream our heads off.  If we're not careful, we lose our sense of reality and in far too many occasions people lose their heads and actually follow up on their threats, causing physical harm to someone who may have inadvertently cut them off.

We are here in this particular forum to discuss Orthodox - Catholic relations.  This is an issue that can easily degenerate into name calling, particularly because it involves such a turgid history for those of Slavic backgrounds.  

We must resist the temptation to say, "Well, I don't give a rat's rearend what you have to say because you're just a Uniate" and stay clear of the urge to shout back, "Well, you're just a blind fool who can't see that union with Rome is what God wants."  We are all Christians here and should act as much, even if we feel and know that one side does not have the fullness of the Faith.  We all still look to Christ as our model, as our teacher and as our God.  

The next time we find ourselves immediately reacting to a post and typing a reply without much thought, STOP.  Ask yourself "Is this how Christ would respond?".  We must remember that we, both Orthodox and Catholic, are not trying to stop Christ, as did the Pharisees and Sadducess, that "brood of vipers".  We are all trying to follow Him as best we can.  

Should we discuss the best way to do that?  Of course!  But we should not, for ANY reason, play the blame game with people who weren't around when the original game was played.

And no, I'm not of Slavic background.  And before you ask, I'm a Latin Catholic who has recently discovered Eastern Christianity and am studying it intently.
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« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2002, 01:59:00 PM »

Orthodoc,

"But lets be completely honest.  We all know that both you and Dan are here from the Byzantine Catholic Forum to troll.  So, maybe Nik is right - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

Rubbish!  Your comments only reflect that you are a snide know it all.  I am here because this section of the forum is titled "Orthodox-Catholic in communion with Rome.  That is what I am.  You are the troll here.

Dan Lauffer



"Orthodox in Communion in Rome" is as offensive to ethnic Orthodox as the expression "Apostate Orthodox in Communion with the Grand Crusader" would be to you.

Btw: When do the BC hierarchs plan on changing the parish titles from 'Byzantine Catholic' to 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome?'

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« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2002, 02:24:03 PM »

OK.  I don't want this thread closed, but there are some unpleasant things that I want stopped.

However, I'm serious in my intention to speak as clearly as I can about the blessings of be Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

Dan is welcome to speak about his experience as an Eastern Catholic, especially in this folder that deals with Orthodox/Catholic relations.  But, in line with the terms I laid down as normative on this site, "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" is not appropriate.  So I'm only asking one thing of Dan here, and that is to use "Eastern Catholic", "Byzantine Catholic", or something like that when speaking of the Eastern Churches recognising the authority of Rome.  

And, based on that, why should we care what you think about us referring to you as a Uniate?

I also want to remind Orthodoc that, in line with those same guidelines I mentioned above, "Uniate" is not appropriate and should not be used.  

Oh, I don't know.  Maybe civility?  Maybe basic respect?  Maybe charity?  

This whole name calling thing is ridiculous to begin with.  For starters, this is the bloody Internet.  Nothing like a little anonymity to give people the courage to do things they wouldn't do face-to-face.  Computers are great things to hide behind.  And secondly, this is supposed to be a Christian forum.  Argue all you want about theology, but to stoop to name calling makes our Lord weep.


Schultz is right.  To stoop to name-calling and things of that sort is no big deal on the internet, since it is anonymous.  But what does that say about the name-caller?  Surely our Lord cannot be pleased at this sort of thing.  Whatever the differences between Orthodox and Catholics, we are brothers in Christ.  Why don't we start acting like it?

To those of us who are Orthodox Catholic and from a slavic (some times Eastern Catholic) background these issues are much more than name calling.  In fact, they are sore spots because of the pain and confusion they inflicted upon our ancestors.

As Christians, we are called to overcome these feelings.  Yes, we know the historical circumstances behind these things, and they were wrong.  They were as wrong in the Slavic lands as they were in Ethiopia, India, and elsewhere.  But we cannot bear grudges and treat each other without love because of these things.  How dare we raise our hands and pray in the Lord's Prayer washbuq lan hawbayn wahtohayn aykano doph hnan shbaqan l-hayobayn (Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us) and then start doing things like this.  How can we ask God's forgiveness for our debts if we haven't already asked for the forgiveness of those against whom we have sinned (which is the clear meaning of the original Syriac the Lord spoke), or in this case freely forgiven those who have offended us?  The name-calling, in spite of the historical circumstances, is symptomatic of a larger problem in our souls, an unwillingness to forgive and to love, even to love our enemies.  So it seems to me.  

May we pray for those who have offended us, past or present, forgive them, and love them as did the Lord, Who could've called down twelve legions of Angels to smite those who would kill Him, but instead prayed for their forgiveness, and even made excuses for them.

Finally, Schultz's last post (today at 11:55am) is full of Christian wisdom, and I hope everyone reads it, takes it to heart, and acts accordingly, on this board and in real life.
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« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2002, 02:28:16 PM »

Oh, brother, Abdur.  I can see it already:

"The Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Cathedral" in Philly, or "The Infant of Prague Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Church" or "The Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary Greek-Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Church," or in St. Petersburg, FL, "St. Therese Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome Church."  What a mouthful!   Wink  And just as bad a mouthful as the Johnstown-based "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese of the USA, Ecumenical Patriarchate" (ACROD)!

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« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2002, 02:32:19 PM »

My dear brother Mor Ephrem,

You flatter me far above what I deserve.  But thank you for your kind words Smiley.
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« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2002, 02:55:01 PM »

Oh, brother, Abdur.  I can see it already:

"The Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Cathedral" in Philly, or "The Infant of Prague Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Church" or "The Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary Greek-Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with Rome Church," or in St. Petersburg, FL, "St. Therese Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome Church."  What a mouthful!   Wink  And just as bad a mouthful as the Johnstown-based "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek-Catholic Diocese of the USA, Ecumenical Patriarchate" (ACROD)!

Hypo-Ortho

It may be too late to do it or logistically impossible, but perhaps a better title for this thread (to forestall future misunderstandings) would be "Eastern/Oriental Orthodox AND Roman/Eastern Catholic Discussion."  Drop the hyphen we presently have and either make it a clear "dash" or substitute it with the conjunction "and."  Just a suggestion.

And, oh yeah, I second Mor's praise of Schultz's reasoned post.

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« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2002, 03:02:35 PM »

Hey Hypo-Ortho,

Do you mean the title of this Forum or the title of this particular Thread.

pax,

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« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2002, 03:19:48 PM »

As I type this the indicators have recorded 1632 VIEWS of this particular thread and still climbing.  Which indicates, that in spite of the emotions and controversary, it is the most viewed topic since the site was resurrected.

It may seem like petty to some, but it is obviously important and interesting to others.

I have also noted, that true to forum, the replies can be divided into two catagories -

(1) Cradle Orthodox Catholic with a slavic backgrounds where the Eastern Catholic Church was enforced

(2) Non slavic or convert Ortodox Catholics with no ties to old world controversaries or history.

It's about what I expected.

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« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2002, 03:22:53 PM »

Hey Hypo-Ortho,

Do you mean the title of this Forum or the title of this particular Thread.

pax,

bobby

Just this particular thread, Bobby.  The title of this Forum, OrthodoxChristianity.net, is very clear to most people of good will and should *not* be changed under any circumstances.

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« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2002, 03:26:19 PM »

I hate this word game - please make this folder 'Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue'. The plain meanings of these capitalized words are clear enough.
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« Reply #128 on: November 06, 2002, 03:35:24 PM »

I hate this word game - please make this folder 'Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue'. The plain meanings of these capitalized words are clear enough.

I hate the game-playing semantics too, Serge.  The plain meanings may be clear to you and me, but it would appear that some may want to obfuscate what we both clearly understand to promote their own agenda.  Hopefully, that is at an end.

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« Reply #129 on: November 06, 2002, 03:36:11 PM »



Since some Catholics in communion with Rome have a hard time with either the term ROMAN Catholic or PAPAL Catholic, lets leave it the way it is.


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« Reply #130 on: November 06, 2002, 04:49:55 PM »

I have also noted, that true to forum, the replies can be divided into two catagories -

(1) Cradle Orthodox Catholic with a slavic backgrounds where the Eastern Catholic Church was enforced

(2) Non slavic or convert Ortodox Catholics with no ties to old world controversaries or history.

It's about what I expected.

I hope you are not suggesting by way of your categorisation that the people who don't seem to see things your way are those who are non-Slavic, as if you have to be a Slav to understand these things.  

There are people like me who know what the RCC was/is capable of, based on their history in our country even to the present day, but rather than focus our efforts on attacking our brothers, we'd rather try to forgive and move along, and correct when necessary, in imitation of the Lord.

I've noticed when people bring up the topic of a Ukrainian Church independent of the MP, you are quick to note that nationalism should not come before the Gospel, and you are right.  But here you seem precisely to be making this an ethnic issue, rather than an issue fundamentally related to how we apply the Gospel of Christ in our lives.  I cannot see how name-calling or other such displays of a lack of charity help one grow spiritually.  Slav or non-Slav, all are called to love all people with Christian love, even our enemies.  Slav or non-Slav, all are called to forgive freely in imitation of Christ.    

Or do Slavs have a dispensation from living the Gospel of Christ?
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« Reply #131 on: November 06, 2002, 05:50:09 PM »

[I hope you are not suggesting by way of your categorisation that the people who don't seem to see things your way are those who are non-Slavic, as if you have to be a Slav to understand these things.]

Thats not what I am saying at all.  What I am saying is that it is basically an emotional issue based on one's background.  And remains as such even today.  As recent as 50 some years ago, and even today, families have split because of this issue.  What I call the 'Roman Catholic'  word game has led to confusion regarding one's religious identity amongst certain slavic groups.  The results have been  disastrous to many families including my own.  I know of many families that were broken up over this issue and remain so even today.  My grandfather and  his brother lived in the same small town for over 60 years and never spoke over this issue.

[But here you seem precisely to be making this an ethnic issue, rather than an issue fundamentally related to how we apply the Gospel of Christ in our lives.]

Where am I making it an ethnic issue?   Once again, I am saying it is an emotional issue and based on ones personal experiences.   Its ethnic only in the sense it  applies to certain areas of eastern europe where the 'Eastern Catholic Church' was created to proseltyze against the Orthodox Catholics.

 [I cannot see how name-calling or other such displays of a lack of charity help one grow spiritually.]

Neither can I.  But I'm not the one that  came in here and purposely used a term that I knew would offend and incite people.

I used the term Uniate to give  as an example of how offensive a word or term can be to a person who was being offensive by putting the shoe on that persons foot as the saying goes.

I am glad that you have banned the term 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.  I am equally glad you have also banned the term Uniate.
 
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« Reply #132 on: November 06, 2002, 05:52:11 PM »

Abdur,

I may be only idealistic, as Serge suggests.  I've been known to be worse.  Yet, what is the point of prolonging internicene warfare?  For that matter, since I did not fight in the Crusades, you can call the Catholic Church anything you wish as far as I'm concerned.  One must remember, though, it was the East who begged for the West to come and saved them from the Muslims.  1203 should not have happened.  Was the trashing of Agia Sophia directed by the Pope?

"Orthodox in Communion in Rome" is as offensive to ethnic Orthodox as the expression "Apostate Orthodox in Communion with the Grand Crusader" would be to you.

Btw: When do the BC hierarchs plan on changing the parish titles from 'Byzantine Catholic' to 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome?"

I've been wondering when this was going to happen for a long long time.  It may be courtesy to the Orthodox not in communion with Rome that they have not done this.  I simply don't know.  

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« Reply #133 on: November 06, 2002, 05:58:22 PM »

Mor Ephrem,

I will follow your suggestion, though I do not believe it does justice to our parish nor to our archeparchy.  I am Eastern Catholic, if it will stop the fussing.

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« Reply #134 on: November 06, 2002, 07:37:41 PM »

W W J D --

What Would Jesus Do?

Well, gee wiz, He loves us all.   So let's follow His example and pretend to get along.  If we were all sitting in the same room, I bet everyone would try to be polite -- especially if Our Lord was sitting at the head of the table!! Cheesy
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