OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 26, 2014, 05:26:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Similarities, differences, and compatibility of EC and EO  (Read 8322 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« on: March 17, 2008, 02:56:28 PM »

This thread was split off from the discussion "2 out of 3 ain't bad..." in the Convert Forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15067.msg215198.html#msg215198

- Cleveland, Global Moderator


Well, Carole, if your husband and daughter do not become the kind of EO converts you sometimes see prowling online, you should be okay. IMO, to live as an Eastern Catholic and to live as an Eastern Orthodox are not all that different. The filioque, from the Catholic perspective, is not a big issue---the Catholic Church does not teach real double procession (in other words, with or without the filioque, the Father is the source), and the Eastern Catholics and increasing numbers of EO today recognize it as not a Church-dividing issue.

I believe there is much you and your family can share---it's not like they will be Baptists. But even then I've seen families stay together with that kind of difference.

I really admire your deep consideration, Carole. You do not take these things lightly, whichever way you end up going.

May I ask, where you Eastern Catholic?  If not then how do you know if it is "not all that different" from living as an Eastern Orthodox?  I beg to differ.  It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 
I know, I was Greek Catholic.  Remember some of us have real life experience when we discuss things.

BTW, I love that icon under your name. Where did you find it?

May I ask, were you Eastern Catholic?  If not then how do you know if it is "not all that different" from living as an Eastern Orthodox?  I beg to differ.  It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 
I know, I was Greek Catholic.  Remember some of us have real life experience when we discuss things.  There are KEY differences between the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.  It doesn't matter if the Greek Catholic parish has a similar liturgy to the Orthodox parish up the street, the Orthodox and Roman/Greek Catholics have key teachings of the Faith that are very different. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:37:15 AM by cleveland » Logged

lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 03:10:04 PM »

May I ask, were you Eastern Catholic?  If not then how do you know if it is "not all that different" from living as an Eastern Orthodox?  I beg to differ.  It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 
I know, I was Greek Catholic.  Remember some of us have real life experience when we discuss things.  There are KEY differences between the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.  It doesn't matter if the Greek Catholic parish has a similar liturgy to the Orthodox parish up the street, the Orthodox and Roman/Greek Catholics have key teachings of the Faith that are very different. 

I said it was my opinion. Take it as you will. In terms of day-to-day devotional life, they are not that different, IMO.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,198


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 04:18:36 PM »

I said it was my opinion. Take it as you will. In terms of day-to-day devotional life, they are not that different, IMO.
"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV, so... [my opinion is pretty much useless.]"
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 04:20:19 PM »

I said it was my opinion. Take it as you will. In terms of day-to-day devotional life, they are not that different, IMO.

An opinion based on what experience?  You're Latin-rite, yes?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 04:52:42 PM »

"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV, so... [my opinion is pretty much useless.]"

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night . . .   Wink
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 04:54:37 PM »

An opinion based on what experience?  You're Latin-rite, yes?

Yes, though I used to attend DL on a semi-regular basis at a Ruthenian parish and on an occasional basis at a Greek Orthodox parish.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 05:07:59 PM »

An opinion based on what experience?  You're Latin-rite, yes?

I don't know if my opinion counts, but I've been a practicing Eastern Catholic for almost 8 years now.  I've considered the possibility of joining the Orthodox Church.  Honestly, I'm probably still considering it.  But as far as the day to day devotional life of a pious Eastern Catholic vis-a-vis a pious Eastern Orthodox, it is very possible to be virtually indistinguishable.  Some Orthodox friends of mine has commented that I'm more Orthodox than their hierarch (in jest, surely) in some of my observances and they find it amusing that I'm unabashedly in communion with Rome.  The only difference they see is in who I commemorate and pray for and in who I view as the final authority on a matter of faith.

Of course, parish life is another matter.  We're latinized and we skimp on liturgical observances.  We don't have Vespers or Matins on Saturday/Sunday at my parish.  That doesn't stop me from doing reader services.  I find much of the more Eastern praxis-oriented brethren in the Eastern Catholic Churches complaints about not being able to pray more fully in an Eastern way to be trite and lazy.  There is no reason, given internet access, that one cannot, at the very least, pray Vespers and Matins for Sundays in the home as a reader's service.  The texts are out there if one looks for them, free of charge and in a readable format.  It takes merely the desire and the will to make the time and do it.  But that's another thread for another time.

By the way, I'm not interested at this time in the debate or listening to proselytizing; it's Holy Week for those of us on the Gregorian Calendar.  Plus, I've read it all and heard it all before, so please, don't bother.  I am personally still unconvinced that Eastern Christian praxis and theology is ultimately unable to reconcile with its Western counterpart.  

Carole, you certainly sound like you are very thorough in searching for the right path in your walk with God.  You are certainly in my prayers.  
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 12:07:42 AM »

Appearances are just that, appearances.  An Eastern Catholic CAN NOT accept the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  If he does this means he rejected the core teachings of his church, in other words, excommunicated himself.  Eastern Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox.
Because while the standard issue argument is that "well, we have similar (and I say that with seriousness) liturgics and prayers to the Orthodox, so we are the same" THIS DOES NOT MAKE YOU ORTHODOX.
Renouncing Roman Catholic doctrine and being received into the Orthodox Church per instructions of the Orthodox Bishop is the way to be Eastern Orthodox.

Luberti, in what opinion do you base this on?  Attending a Ruthenian Catholic liturgy doesn't make you Orthodox or understand the Orthodox Church. Attending a few services at an Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't give a person a deep understanding of the Orthodox faith.
As a man who comes from a family that has Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox in it, I assure you shallow opinions from outsiders don't really mean anything. 
There is so much history behind the whole existence of Greek/Byzantine Catholics in the first place.  Then there was the whole family issues when the brave souls reclaimed their Orthodox Faith in this Country and built Orthodox Parishes, yes Eastern Orthodox parishes. 
While the two may seem similar I can assure you the Roman Catholics/Byzantine/Greek Catholics do not share the same beliefs as the Eastern Orthodox.  If an Eastern Catholic did share the same beliefs as an Eastern Orthodox he would in fact excommunicated himself from his church and couldn't receive communion. 

It understanding what the Deposit of Faith Teaches and knowing what it takes and is required to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian. It is complete and utter acceptance of what the church teaches in order for a person to receive the Eucharist, for it is Christ who unites the faithful.

If you don't want to hear it then don't post comments on the issue. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 12:14:17 AM by username! » Logged

username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 12:21:29 AM »

Quote from: lubeltri on Today at 03:10:04 PM
I said it was my opinion. Take it as you will. In terms of day-to-day devotional life, they are not that different, IMO.

Luberti, this is the Convert forum on an Orthodox Christian message board.  Your opinion on the day to day devotional life between Roman Catholics/Byzantine Rite Catholics is just opinion.
The similar prayers and similar liturgics do not make Byzantine Rite Catholics magically into Orthodox Christians.
It isn't something to be made light of.  As a member of a church you are to follow and adhere to the teachings of that church.  If you deviate from those teachings then you have removed yourself from the church, in Latin terms, excommunicated yourself.  This means you can not partake in Communion, you can not unite yourself through Christ with the members of the church who adhere to the teachings of the church.
Byzantine Rite Catholics are often pulled in two directions.  You are told to be eastern as possible while at the same time you MUST adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church.  These teachings include the dogmas that have pushed Roman Catholics/Byzantine Rite Catholics very far from the Orthodox Deposit of Faith.
Unless a person has lived that hardship he will never understand it.   You can not have ANY reservations about the teachings of the church in order to be able to approach the chalice, let alone receive the other sacraments.  You can not make up excuses of stand on the middle ground or pick and choose what to believe.
It isn't something to be made light of, we are talking about people's salvation here.  It is a really really hard spiritual struggle many Eastern Catholics live with.  Not anything to simply toss out your opinion on.
Logged

Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 09:56:45 AM »

Appearances are just that, appearances.  An Eastern Catholic CAN NOT accept the teachings of the Orthodox Church.  If he does this means he rejected the core teachings of his church, in other words, excommunicated himself.  Eastern Catholics are not Eastern Orthodox.
Because while the standard issue argument is that "well, we have similar (and I say that with seriousness) liturgics and prayers to the Orthodox, so we are the same" THIS DOES NOT MAKE YOU ORTHODOX.
Renouncing Roman Catholic doctrine and being received into the Orthodox Church per instructions of the Orthodox Bishop is the way to be Eastern Orthodox.

Nowhere have I ever said that I'm Orthodox nor am I trying to be Eastern Orthodox.  I'm not one of those "Orthodox in Communion With Rome" type people.  As I stated in my first post in this thread, I unabashedly identify myself as a Catholic Christian.  I merely have not been convinced that one must sever communion with the see of Rome in order to practice my faith in Christ in an Eastern Slavic context (where I find my faith increasing daily due in large part to that very context; it works for me). 

Quote
If an Eastern Catholic did share the same beliefs as an Eastern Orthodox he would in fact excommunicated himself from his church and couldn't receive communion. 

Technically speaking, this is not correct.  The Guidelines for Communion in the Catholic Church specifically state that any member of the Eastern Orthodox communion may receive communion in any Catholic Church.  The only caveat is that such a member should follow the directives of his own bishop (ie, receiving communion in a Catholic church could very well lead to excommunication in one's own Orthodox church).

Quote
If you don't want to hear it then don't post comments on the issue. 


I was referring to specific proselytizing and the ever-present list of reasons.  I was also trying to keep this thread about Carole and her search for the Truth and not turn it into yet another thread about the differences between Eastern and Western expressions of the Faith.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:57:40 AM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 03:51:56 PM »

This is not the point at all, I don't care what some missal says in a Catholic Church.  If you receive communion in your church you are saying to your brethren that you stand tall with them in your faith and that you believe and accept EVERY SINGLE TEACHING of your church, and if you are "in union with Rome" that would include what Rome requires as well.  If an Eastern Orthodox would receive communion in your church he would be turning his back on his church and the teachings of the ancient unchanged Deposit of Faith, it would mean he accepted the whole Papal issue etc....  While many people believe receiving Communion is a total private devotion the truth is it is a Communal act of unity, as Christ unites us all.  While preparing to receive the Eucharist is a matter of private devotion and confession/repentance and all the other steps taken in order to receive Communion, the actual event of receiving Communion is a communal celebration.  It is a gathering of the faithful who approach the chalice and receive Christ and by doing so all are saying that they believe as one and that they are affirming their faith as defined by, at least in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the un-changed Nicene Creed and the Deposit of Faith and instructions.  These instructions are rightfully dispensed by our Bishops and through his priests and deacons.   This is why it doesn't matter what a Roman Catholic or Papal Church prints in its pew book about dispensing Communion to those who aren't subjective to the Pope.
Simply, you can not offer Communion, Christ, the Eucharist to those who do not follow and believe the teachings of your Church.  In the Case of the Roman Catholic Church and the various Ritual Churches within it you must be subject to the Pope.  It is one of the biggest parts of being a member of that Church.  If you do not agree with the rules about the pope for instance than you are not able to receive Communion.  It isn't as if Communion is a private act and technically anyone that disregards church teaching or picks and chooses what teaching he can believe can receive Communion.  Communion, receiving Christ, is the unifying act all the faithful, faithful to Christ, their brethren and those faithful to the Church teachings DO in order to become one, receive Christ, Christ who binds us all. 

I read on the other boards all these complaints from Roman Catholics that people are "cafeteria" Catholics. Even from the so-called traditionalists (who by the way, deny the current missal of their church, bash their supreme leader, the Pope, all of which technically place themselves in defiance of their church's teachings...)
I hear this crying of picking and choosing (which the traditionalists do the same amount of picking and choosing what they have to believe) and guess what?
When you have orders from on high that says the person giving out Communion (remember receiving Communion means you are saying in public to those around you that you share the same beliefs and follow church teachings) can give it to Polish Catholics, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox, well, that's just amazing.
Polish Catholics are protestants, they protested Rome.  They don't completely practice private confession, they have public confession during the Confiteor and Absolution (although the Absolution given is equal in their minds to the one given in the confessional).  I can go on, but the point is, they have moved away from Rome and denounced teachings of that Church.
Therefore, why and how can they receive Communion in your church?  Why should they be allowed?  By creating their own churches and hierarchy and creating their own liturgical practices that are in defiance of Roman Catholic/Papal teaching they have broken Communion.  See, you can not share communion with them.  Sharing communion/receiving Christ unifies believers. 
I could go on, as we know us Eastern Orthodox have completely different beliefs than the Roman Catholics/Catholics that are subject to Papal authority. 
Point is, it is completely wrong to offer to share communion with people that aren't members of your church.
If they were members of your church they would follow the teachings of the church completely.
Giving communion or at least offering communion to anyone that you want to sends out the signal that you don't have to hold true to the Faith to receive Christ and be unified to each other. 
Kind of like letting some married men be Ordained priests but mandating celibacy for other men (like if you are a Latin catholic man you can't be married, have a wife, and be ordained, but if you left, married became an Anglican minister you can certainly be received as a married Latin Catholic priest).  It all seems pretty much the same thinking, a cafeteria brand thought that waxes and wanes like the Moon.  It's ok for some, not for others, we'll accept some as brothers and sisters and share the Eucharist with them even though they don't believe what we require card-carrying members to believe, you know, that the Pope is the Supreme Pontiff, etc.. 
You either stand tall in belief with your brothers and sisters and accept the Deposit of Faith and affirm that by receiving the Most Precious Body and Blood of Our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who unifies us and saves us..... or you don't.  If you don't, then you can not approach the chalice and make that public act of receiving Christ which shouts, I believe Lord, this is your Church, the teachings of your Church are true and I would never sway from your instruction.  I believe in One God, The Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth of All things Visible and Invisible and in One Lord Jesus Christ.............................  and in the Deposit of Faith, the instructions of the hierarchy and I affirm that I can't pick and choose what teachings of the church I can believe in this week.  If someone approaches the chalice and isn't in agreement with the terms and conditions then he is hurting himself and those around him, by receiving from that Chalice he is saying he is their brother, but in his heart he knows he isn't, he is then providing false witness to the Church, the brethren and to Christ.
Logged

Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 05:14:18 PM »

username!,

The problem is you are applying the Orthodox belief that to receive Communion one must believe 100% what the Church teaches and be a member of that Church. Catholics obviously don't accept this because they allow those who are less than 100% in accord with them to receive, i.e Orthodox, Assyrians, Polish Nationals.  Of course this naturally arises out of the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the sacraments of those Churches.  It even forsees allowing Protestants to receive if they have no minister of their own available. The Catholic Church prudently limits all this, but it is all tied to the fact that the Catholic Church believes all the validly baptized are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, which the Catholic Church believes itself to be the fullest expression of.  The Catholic Church looks at seperated Christians as errant sons and daughters not strangers and outsiders.

You state:

"If you do not agree with the rules about the pope for instance than you are not able to receive Communion."

Yet 24 of 26 Melkite bishops proclaimed at the 1995 Holy Synod:

1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

and were not excommunicated.  In fact they were not even required to retract the proclamation.

I can respect the fact that the Orthodox do not agree with this and I always advise Orthodox to not approach a Catholic Chalice as they will be excommunicating themselves according to Orthodox teaching and canon.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 05:19:54 PM »

username!

Deacon Lance took the words out of my mouth...er...fingers.  Please don't fall into the trap of applying your Church's theology/praxis onto the theology/praxis of the Catholic communion.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 05:21:11 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 05:33:24 PM »

Clearly examples of how the Roman/Byzantine Catholic Church differs in teaching/praxis than the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Which obviously shows that there are huge/major differences even if Luberti doesn't agree or seem to think so.
Deacon Lance, Schultz, I can assure you I know the Roman/Byzantine Catholic teachings. 

At least you Shultz aren't attempting to claim the Byzantine Catholics are Orthodox in Communion with Rome, and I don't think I've ever seen Deacon Lance make that claim either. 
The part that can get real fuzzy is when people start claiming they are Orthodox Christians but under Rome.
At least Deacon Lance and Shultz have already pointed in this very thread to huge differences that demonstrate the difference between the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics aligned to Rome.

I'm not going to touch the Melkite issue with a 59 meter long shock proofed anti-statically equipped doppler radar readied telephone pole. 

Logged

Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 06:08:22 PM »

No I don't agree with the Orthodox in communion with Rome title.  That said I do subscribe to the Zoghby Initiative if for no other reason it pretty much desrcibes what I believe.  I say the same prayers as the Orthodox, I study the same Fathers, I believe somewhere in the 90%+ range what Orthodoxy teaches, which I acknowledge is not enough for the Orthodox Churches standard. Obviously I subscribe to the belief that St. Peter's role as head of the College of Apostles was unique and more than honorary and so his succesor's role as head of the College of Bishops is unique and more than honorary. I also don't subscribe to the Ultramontane view of the Papacy as endowed with divine right to micro manage and interfere anywhere and everywhere it sees fit. I also can't subscribe to the current Orthodox rejection of a real Primacy for the Bishop of Rome and their substitution of a honorary primacy in his place. As a Patriarch functions for his Local Synod, the Pope should function for an Ecumenical Synod, or so I believe.  As regards the current subject, I also can't subscribe to the current Orthodox all or nothing stance on inter-communion.  Spain introduced the Filioque in the 500s. The East new about this but did not excommunicate Spain over this. Now I realize other differences have cropped up since then but the principle remains the same, the East did not always have an all or nothing position.  That said I see no reason to denigrate current Orthodox teaching as some Catholic Apologists do, becasue they have good reasons and backing for their current positions, no the least of which is the dysfuntional way the Eastern Catholic Churches operate and relate to Rome.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 06:53:24 PM »

I don't know if my opinion counts, but I've been a practicing Eastern Catholic for almost 8 years now.  I've considered the possibility of joining the Orthodox Church.  Honestly, I'm probably still considering it.  But as far as the day to day devotional life of a pious Eastern Catholic vis-a-vis a pious Eastern Orthodox, it is very possible to be virtually indistinguishable.  Some Orthodox friends of mine has commented that I'm more Orthodox than their hierarch (in jest, surely) in some of my observances and they find it amusing that I'm unabashedly in communion with Rome.  The only difference they see is in who I commemorate and pray for and in who I view as the final authority on a matter of faith.
 

Liturgics and prayers may be the same, but in essence the core beliefs are different.  A Non-Denominational person could pray the Canon of St. Andrew but that doesn't make him the same as an Eastern Orthodox except that he finds organized religion obtuse (or whatever they choose to believe that afternoon).
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2008, 06:54:56 PM »

^^ Excellent post! (Fr. Deacon Lance's post, I mean.)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 09:10:50 PM by PJ » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2008, 07:21:20 PM »

username!,

"Liturgics and prayers may be the same, but in essence the core beliefs are different."

This is were you lose me. Certainly we don't have 100% agreement, but to state core beliefs are different is strecthing it a bit. Core beliefs=Trinity, Jesus Christ, One person, two natures, Incarnated through the Virgin Theotokos, By death He trampled Death and gives us life through the Holy Spirit by means of the Mysteries which are our means of theosis along with prayer, fasting, and the spiritual and corporal works of mercy. These are what I consider the Core Beliefs to be, I would hope the Orthodox would feel the same.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2008, 07:40:01 PM »

. I also can't subscribe to the current Orthodox rejection of a real Primacy for the Bishop of Rome and their substitution of a honorary primacy in his place. As a Patriarch functions for his Local Synod, the Pope should function for an Ecumenical Synod, or so I believe.  As regards the current subject, I also can't subscribe to the current Orthodox all or nothing stance on inter-communion.  Spain introduced the Filioque in the 500s. The East new about this but did not excommunicate Spain over this.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You know the Orthodox don't think the Pope ever held some monarchical power, so why would you say we just put a fill-in for his real primacy with one of honor?  There hasn't been the need for an Ecumenical Council since the last one, and since then the Bishop of Rome has strayed from his original job description so of course we needed to assign someone to be the mediator, next on the list the Bishop of Constantinople, hence he got the title. 
Rome did indeed accuse Constantinople of heresy because they thought the Greeks took out the Filioque from the Creed!!  Silly me, I'll have to find a reference for that, but I think you probably know what I am talking about. 

No one would deny those are part of Christianity, Deacon Lance.  I know you know and I know you know that I know the reasons the Roman Catholic/Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox do not inter-commune.  These are the issues that separate us.  However, remember Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans, atheists all perform corporal works of mercy, fasting, some perform some form of theosis with their god(s), but that doesn't make them Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic. 
Logged

Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2008, 09:27:24 PM »

There is a difference between monarchial power, and a real, effective primacy as exercised by Rome before the schism, and the impotent honorary primacy exercised by the EP now.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,198


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2008, 10:25:09 PM »

There is a difference between monarchial power, and a real, effective primacy as exercised by Rome before the schism, and the impotent honorary primacy exercised by the EP now.

Fr. Deacon Lance
ISTM that there's also a great difference between the real, effective primacy exercised by Rome before the schism and the overinflated tyranny exercised by the papacy since then.
Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2008, 10:25:36 PM »

Anglo-Catholics are more Catholic than Catholics.  Are they Catholic?
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2008, 11:04:16 PM »

  The Guidelines for Communion in the Catholic Church specifically state that any member of the Eastern Orthodox communion may receive communion in any Catholic Church. 
Yes, but they also require that the Eastern Christian be "properly disposed".
This was brought up in the CAF under the Traditional forum and the topic of who can go to heaven. The R. Catholic poster there stated that the Eastern Orthodox Christian must be "properly disposed," in order to receive Holy Communion in a R. Catholic Church. And according to him, "properly disposed" would mean that the person is not in the state of mortal sin. Further, he said that according to Catholic belief, it is a mortal sin of heresy to refuse to believe in the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the Papal Infallibility and therefore, in order to be "properly disposed," an Eastern Christian must renounce all of the beliefs of the Orthodox Church which contradict the Roman Catholic beliefs such as those mentioned. Someone questioned him on it, but soon after, the moderators shut down the forum and it was closed to any further comments. 
Logged
Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2008, 11:20:04 PM »

PeterThe Aleut,

Quote
ISTM that there's also a great difference between the real, effective primacy exercised by Rome before the schism and the overinflated tyranny exercised by the papacy since then.

Which is why I said before the schism.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2008, 11:30:50 PM »

username!,

The problem is you are applying the Orthodox belief that to receive Communion one must believe 100% what the Church teaches and be a member of that Church. Catholics obviously don't accept this because they allow those who are less than 100% in accord with them to receive, i.e Orthodox, Assyrians, Polish Nationals.  Of course this naturally arises out of the fact that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of the sacraments of those Churches.  It even forsees allowing Protestants to receive if they have no minister of their own available. The Catholic Church prudently limits all this, but it is all tied to the fact that the Catholic Church believes all the validly baptized are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, which the Catholic Church believes itself to be the fullest expression of.  The Catholic Church looks at seperated Christians as errant sons and daughters not strangers and outsiders.

You state:

"If you do not agree with the rules about the pope for instance than you are not able to receive Communion."

Yet 24 of 26 Melkite bishops proclaimed at the 1995 Holy Synod:

1. I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2. I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

and were not excommunicated.  In fact they were not even required to retract the proclamation.

I can respect the fact that the Orthodox do not agree with this and I always advise Orthodox to not approach a Catholic Chalice as they will be excommunicating themselves according to Orthodox teaching and canon.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Concerning the Melkite declaration, I thought that Cardinal Ratzinger issued a statement shortly after this saying that this was not completely acceptable to the Roman Catholic Church?
Concerning the guidlines for an Eastern Christian to receive Holy Communion in a R Catholic Church, is it defined somewhere in writing, what the condition "properly disposed" actually means when it refers to the Eastern Christian receiving Holy Communion.
Also, you mentioned that a Protestant could receive R.C. Communion. Is this written down somewhere or is it just your opinion that it is possible under certain conditions.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2008, 11:31:15 PM »

Stanley,

Orthodox are not considered schismatic let alone heretical so that fool's arguement falls apart.  Properly disposed means free of mortal sin and having kept the fast. Perhaps the Ultramontanes should read something Rome has written on the Orthodox since Vatican II.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2008, 11:37:33 PM »

Congregation for the Eastern Churches Prot. No. 251/75

June 11, 1997

His Beatitude Maximos V HAKIM
Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarch of Antioch and of all the East, of Alexandria and of Jerusalem.

Your Beatitude,

The news of the project for "rapprochement" between the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate and the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch has given rise to various echoes and comments in the public opinion.

The Congregation for Doctrine of the Faith, the Congregation for the Eastern Churches, and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity have made an effort to study and closely examine the areas which fall within their competence in this domain; and the heads of these Dicasteries have been charged by the Holy Father to express some considerations to Your Beatitude.

The Holy See is greatly interested in and encourages initiatives which favor the road to a complete reconciliation of the Christian Churches. She appreciates the motivation behind the efforts undertaken for several decades by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Patriarchate, which is trying to hasten the coming of this full communion so greatly desired. The Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches recognizes the duty for every Christian (Can. 902), which becomes for the Eastern Catholic Churches a special duty (munus) (Can. 903), whose exercise will be governed "through special norms of particular law while the Roman Apostolic Church functions as the moderator for the universal church" (Can. 904).

This is all the more true for two communities which see themselves as being closely united because of the ties of common origin and common ecclesiastical tradition, as well as by a long experience of common initiatives which no doubt place them into a privileged situation of proximity.

The Church's desire is to find adequate ways and means to progress further along the road of brotherly understanding and, to encourage new structures which further such progress towards full communion.

Pursuing such goals, Your Patriarchate is motivated by a sensibility and a knowledge of the situation and an experience which are peculiarly its own. The Holy See desires to contribute to this process by expressing some considerations which she believes will eventually help the future progress of this initiative.

The Dicasteries involved appreciate very much that common pastoral initiatives are undertaken by Catholics and Orthodox, according to the instructions found in the Directory for the application of the principles and norms for Ecumenism, especially in the areas of Christian formation, of education, a common effort in charity, and for the sharing of prayer when this is possible.

As to experiences of a theological nature, it is necessary to labor patiently and prudently, without precipitation, in order to help both parties to travel along the same road.

The first level in this sharing concerns the language and the categories employed in the dialogue: one must be very careful that the use of the same word or the same concept is not used to express different points of view and interpretations of a historical and doctrinal nature, nor lends itself to some kind of oversimplification.

A second level of involvement necessitates that the sharing of the content of the dialogue not be limited only to the two direct participants: the Patriarchates of the Catholic Greek-Melkites and the Orthodox of Antioch, but that it involve the Confessions with whom the two Patriarchates are in full communion: the Catholic communion for the former and the Orthodox for the latter. Even the Orthodox ecclesiastical authorities of the Patriarchate of Antioch have brought forth a similar preoccupation. This global implication also will permit averting the risk that some initiatives, meant to promote the full communion at the local level, might give rise to a lack of understanding or suspicions beyond the generosity of the intentions.

Now we consider the elements contained in the profession of faith of his Excellency Kyr Elias Zoghby, Greek-Melkite Catholic Archbishop emeritus of Baalbek, signed in February 1995, and to which numerous hierarchs of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Synod have adhered.

It is clear that this Patriarchate is an integral part of the Christian East whose patrimony it shares. As to the Greek-Melkite Catholics declaring their complete adhesion to the teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy, it is necessary to take into account the fact that the Orthodox Churches today are not in full communion with the Church of Rome, and that this adhesion is therefore not possible as long as there is not a full correspondence in the profession and exercise of the faith by the two parties. Besides, a correct formulation of the faith necessitates a reference not only to a particular Church, but to the whole Church of Christ, which knows no frontiers, neither in space nor in time.

On the question of communion with the Bishops of Rome, we know that the doctrine concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff has experienced a development over time within the framework of the explanation of the Church's faith, and it has to be retained in its entirety, which means from its origins to our day. One only has to think about what the first Vatican Council affirmed and what Vatican Council II declared, particularly in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium Num. 22 and 23, and in the Decree on ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio Number 2.

As to the modalities for exercising the Petrine ministry in our time, a question which is distinct from the doctrinal aspect, it is true that the Holy Father has recently desired to remind us how "we may seek--together, of course--the forms in which this ministry may accomplish a service of love recognized by all concerned" (Ut unum sint, 95); however, if it is legitimate to also deal with this on a local level, it is also a duty to do this always in harmony with a vision of the universal Church. Touching this matter, it is appropriate to be reminded that in any case, "The Catholic Church, both in her praxis and in her solemn documents, holds that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is--in God's plan--an essential requisite of full and visible communion" (Ut unum sint, 97).

As to the various aspects of communicatio in sacris, it is necessary to maintain a constant dialogue in order to understand the meaning of the current regulation in force, in the light of underlying theological presuppositions; premature, unilateral initiatives are to be avoided, where the eventual results may not have been sufficiently considered, they could produce serious consequences for other Eastern Catholics, especially for those living in the same region.

In summary, the fraternal dialogue undertaken by the Greek-Melkite Catholic Partriarchate will be better able to serve the ecumenical dialogue to the degree that it strives to involve the entire Catholic Church to which it belongs in the maturing of new sensitivities. There is good reason to believe that the Orthodox in general so share the same worry, due also to the obligations of communion within their own body.

The Dicasteries involved are ready to collaborate in order to further the exchange of verifications and echoes; they express their satisfaction for these meetings which have been held on this subject with the representatives of the Greek-Melkite Catholic Church, and they hope and wish that these meetings continue and intensify in the future.

Not doubting at all that Your Beatitude would want to share these ideas, we beg you to accept the expression of our fraternal and cordial greetings.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Achille Card. Silvestrini
Edward Card. Cassidy
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,061


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2008, 11:45:52 PM »

Can.  844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.

§5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2008, 12:13:57 AM »

§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.
Here it states that the Easter Christian must be "properly disposed." The Catholic on the Traditional Catholic forum CAF - who can go to heaven- thread- said much the same as it was said here by username, that there are essential differences between EO and RC and properly disposed implies that the individual must conform to the R. Catholic teaching on the filioque, papal infallibility, etc., otherwise, he would be in heresy and that this is in itself a mortal sin and so he would not be eligible for holy Communion unless he repent of these "heresies". When someone disagreed with this, the thread was shortly thereafter shut down, and you can check it for yourself on CAF.
So it would be appropriate to refer to an official written declaration of what it would mean for an Eastern Christian to be properly disposed, according to the RC slant on it.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,198


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2008, 12:16:03 AM »

PeterThe Aleut,

Which is why I said before the schism.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Note also that I spoke of Rome's primacy before the schism being real and effective, for I do recognize that her primacy was more than merely honorary.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2008, 12:20:36 AM »

Stanley,

Orthodox are not considered schismatic let alone heretical so that fool's arguement falls apart.  Properly disposed means free of mortal sin and having kept the fast. Perhaps the Ultramontanes should read something Rome has written on the Orthodox since Vatican II.

Fr. Deacon Lance
OK, I would like to believe so, but this seems to gloss over the very essential differences between RC and EO. For example, on the teachings on Purgatory, indulgences, divorce, infallibility, the immaculate Conception, marriage annulments, artificial birth control. And not to mention the filioque which many Orthodox still see as  a serious problem even after the attempted clarification on it. And there are other problems such as the use of instrumental music during the liturgy, pews, the date of Easter. Although R Catholics may regard some of these things as non-essential, it does not necessarily mean that E O accept that.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2008, 12:24:02 AM »


On the question of communion with the Bishops of Rome, we know that the doctrine concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff has experienced a development over time within the framework of the explanation of the Church's faith, and it has to be retained in its entirety, which means from its origins to our day. One only has to think about what the first Vatican Council affirmed and what Vatican Council II declared, particularly in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium Num. 22 and 23, and in the Decree on ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio Number 2.
This seems to point out a serious difference between RC and EO.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2008, 01:59:17 AM »

Stanley,

Orthodox are not considered schismatic let alone heretical ...
If Orthodox and EC are so similar, then why does Catholic Answers forum ban discussions on Orthodoxy from the Eastern Catholic forum and put all articles on E. Orthodoxy in the non-Catholic discussion area?
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2008, 11:02:45 AM »

If Orthodox and EC are so similar, then why does Catholic Answers forum ban discussions on Orthodoxy from the Eastern Catholic forum and put all articles on E. Orthodoxy in the non-Catholic discussion area?

Last time I checked, Catholic Answers was not an official organ of the Catholic Church.  Of course there are differences, but the Magisterium explicitly states that:

Quote from: Catechism of the Catholic Church
1399 The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, "given suitable circumstances and the approval of Church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged."

Theologically speaking, from the Catholic viewpoint (as opposed to the Orthodox viewpoint), communion cannot exist in sacris with another Church if said Church was schismatic or heretical.  Note that the various Protestant denominations are not afforded the same consideration of an in sacris communion. 

In praxis is a whole other matter, of course, and that is what leads us to the Guidelines for Holy Communion.  Also note that "proper disposition" for one sui juris Church in the Catholic Communion may be quite different from one in another Church.  Methinks a Coptic Catholic would not feel himself to be properly disposed by partaking of the one hour Eucharistic fast one finds in the Latin Church.  Ultimately, the status of "proper disposition" is between God and the communicant because none of us are truly worthy or properly disposed to receive Him.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2008, 11:16:32 AM »

Yes, but they also require that the Eastern Christian be "properly disposed".
This was brought up in the CAF under the Traditional forum and the topic of who can go to heaven. The R. Catholic poster there stated that the Eastern Orthodox Christian must be "properly disposed," in order to receive Holy Communion in a R. Catholic Church. And according to him, "properly disposed" would mean that the person is not in the state of mortal sin. Further, he said that according to Catholic belief, it is a mortal sin of heresy to refuse to believe in the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the Papal Infallibility and therefore, in order to be "properly disposed," an Eastern Christian must renounce all of the beliefs of the Orthodox Church which contradict the Roman Catholic beliefs such as those mentioned. Someone questioned him on it, but soon after, the moderators shut down the forum and it was closed to any further comments. 

If the Catholic (assuming he/she even is one) was stooping to that sort of rhetoric, then I think it's just as well that you didn't get a chance to converse with him/her.



If Orthodox and EC are so similar, then why does Catholic Answers forum ban discussions on Orthodoxy from the Eastern Catholic forum and put all articles on E. Orthodoxy in the non-Catholic discussion area?

CAF is an embarrassment to the Catholic Church. The real mystery is why you continue to participate there.

God bless,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2008, 11:54:05 AM »

If Orthodox and EC are so similar, then why does Catholic Answers forum ban discussions on Orthodoxy from the Eastern Catholic forum and put all articles on E. Orthodoxy in the non-Catholic discussion area?
Because they were confusing people by claiming to be Catholic.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2008, 11:55:35 AM »

Last time I checked, Catholic Answers was not an official organ of the Catholic Church.  Of course there are differences, but the Magisterium explicitly states that:

Theologically speaking, from the Catholic viewpoint (as opposed to the Orthodox viewpoint), communion cannot exist in sacris with another Church if said Church was schismatic or heretical.  Note that the various Protestant denominations are not afforded the same consideration of an in sacris communion. 


Which is why it is probably a bad pastoral decision to intercommune with the Eastern Orthodox.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2008, 11:57:13 AM »



CAF is an embarrassment to the Catholic Church. The real mystery is why you continue to participate there.

You are right. All Catholic organizations that actually accept the official teachings of the Church are an embarrassment. In fact, let's just close the Vatican so as not to offend the Eastern Orthodox anymore.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2008, 12:11:01 PM »

All Catholic organizations that actually accept the official teachings of the Church are an embarrassment.

You're entitled to your opinion, absurd as it may be. (I thought you were Catholic?)

Actually, most Catholic organizations that accept the official teaching of the Church are much better than CAF. You should check out EWTN sometime -- and that's just for starters.

God bless,
Peter.

P.S. Hmmm ... Now I think I'm feeding the trolls. Wink
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2008, 12:11:30 PM »

That's because that's what we traditional Latin Catholics believe.
So we can see that that there are some R. Catholics who believe that EC and EO are fairly close, while there are other R. Catholics who believe that they are not.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2008, 12:37:29 PM »

So we can see that that there are some R. Catholics who believe that EC and EO are fairly close, while there are other R. Catholics who believe that they are not.

I would have thought we already agreed that some RCs consider that EC and EO to be fairly close, and that other RCs don't. Huh

Didn't you notice that lubeltri qualified his statement as an opinion: "IMO, to live as an Eastern Catholic and to live as an Eastern Orthodox are not all that different."

God bless,
-Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2008, 12:46:42 PM »

You should check out EWTN sometime -- and that's just for starters.

After a little more reflection, I think two examples would be better than one -- let's say EWTN and the byzcath forum. Giving just the one example makes it sounds a little like EWTN is the representative of Catholicism.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2008, 12:48:31 PM »

I would have thought we already agreed that some RCs consider that EC and EO to be fairly close, and that other RCs don't.
Right. This just confirms it.
I recall reading concerning an EC Church in the USA a few years back where it chose to associate with the EO Church. There was a small ceremony with the priests agreeing to be EO and those EC who wanted to, just stayed with the new Church. And in the Ukraine about the time of WWII, many of the Ukrainian EC became EO as their EC Churches were suddenly overnight changed to EO Churches. After the recent revolution in Russia, many of them changed back.
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2008, 01:05:43 PM »

Which is why it is probably a bad pastoral decision to intercommune with the Eastern Orthodox.

Which is why I continued my post with, "In praxis..." Smiley
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2008, 01:29:19 PM »

Yes, but they also require that the Eastern Christian be "properly disposed".
This was brought up in the CAF under the Traditional forum and the topic of who can go to heaven. The R. Catholic poster there stated that the Eastern Orthodox Christian must be "properly disposed," in order to receive Holy Communion in a R. Catholic Church. And according to him, "properly disposed" would mean that the person is not in the state of mortal sin. Further, he said that according to Catholic belief, it is a mortal sin of heresy to refuse to believe in the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the Papal Infallibility and therefore, in order to be "properly disposed," an Eastern Christian must renounce all of the beliefs of the Orthodox Church which contradict the Roman Catholic beliefs such as those mentioned. Someone questioned him on it, but soon after, the moderators shut down the forum and it was closed to any further comments. 

As you know, I'm not the biggest fan of CAF -- what with their taking such liberties as secretly banning posters who are, shall we say, inconvenient.

On the other hand, "taking liberties" doesn't equate to "anything goes". Actually, I expect that the CAF moderators are sincerely trying to promote Catholic teaching -- even if they are a little unscrupulous in how they do so.

In view of that, I would suggest the possibility that the moderators may have chosen to censure that poster, because even they recognize the incompatibility between the Catholic canons (see the Deacon Lance's post) and the idea that "it is a mortal sin of heresy to refuse to believe in the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the Papal Infallibility and therefore, in order to be 'properly disposed,' an Eastern Christian must renounce all of the beliefs of the Orthodox Church which contradict the Roman Catholic beliefs such as those mentioned."

(One can hope, right?)

Blessings,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,075



« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2008, 02:54:21 PM »

Which is why it is probably a bad pastoral decision to intercommune with the Eastern Orthodox.

It doesn't matter WHAT the Roman Catholic Church or any of the Rites within it think about inter-communion.
For one, the Eastern Orthodox CATHOLIC bishops prohibit inter-communion.   
This post has turned into a CAF type thread where the Roman Catholics, and I don't care what rite they belong to, have just shelled out nothing but the typical;

-We're the only church on the planet everyone bows to the Pope
-Canon quotes abound
-the talk of "traditional catholics"  look, I don't think you understand that the Church is to be one and these little tag names separate the members into different groups.  What the heck is a traditional Catholic anyway,
Oh, yeah as evidenced by this whole ridiculous thread it is just another example that Roman Catholics can pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to call themselves and who they will share communion with this week.  Bad news, traditional catholics sound just like the cafeteria catholics they complain about and judge.

-Still no one gets the point that the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church is a Church.  We have been around since day one.  The conversation keeps going in the direction of, well we decided at some point that they were a church so we'll give them communion oh and they're like us too.

-Still the fight is raging here on this thread among Roman Catholics of the Latin and Byzantine Rites.  You don't see any Eastern Orthodox Catholics arguing on this thread among themselves, why? I can give you the answer but hey, it won't matter anyway. 

-I still love the traditional Catholic tag, it's my favorite.  Can I be a traditional tea loving pre-council of lyons Catholic?  Sure I could that would be adding to the diversity right?

But I'm still told "this isn't the Roman Catholic praxis, or teaching on this or that"  I know the Roman Catholic teaching, the standard stuff you are to believe whether you are Byzantine rite or Chaldean rite. 

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 03:00:12 PM by username! » Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2008, 03:04:11 PM »

We often use the term traditional Catholic as a synonym for orthodox Catholic. Sorry if that bothers you. As for picking and choosing, I see EO Christians do this all the time. Some think mary was a sinner; some do not. Some think abortion is ok; some do not. Some think ecumenism is heresy; some do not. Some believe in the Atonement; some do not. Some believe the Ecumenical Patriarch is an EO christian; some do not. Some think statues are heretical; some do not. Some think contraception is completely ok; somethink its a sin. Etc, ad infinitum.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 03:07:28 PM by Papist » Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,497


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2008, 03:06:57 PM »

We often use the term traditional Catholic as a synonym for orthodox Catholic. Sorry if that bothers you.

And you just missed the entire point of username!'s post.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the sentiment he expressed re: the argument among Catholics.  If this is what the posts were like over at CAF, I'm glad I never went over there.  I expect disagreement, even heated at times, amongst myself and my Orthodox brethren here, but this takes the cake.

This is the end of my participation in this thread.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2008, 03:08:48 PM »

And you just missed the entire point of username!'s post.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the sentiment he expressed re: the argument among Catholics.  If this is what the posts were like over at CAF, I'm glad I never went over there.  I expect disagreement, even heated at times, amongst myself and my Orthodox brethren here, but this takes the cake.

This is the end of my participation in this thread.
Well, disagree with me if you want. I just read the text of the union of brest and there is nothing in there that allows Eastern Catholics to deviate from Catholic teaching.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 971



« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2008, 03:19:27 PM »

This is the end of my participation in this thread.

That is unfortunate.  I was hoping to learn something of substance from this thread.  I pegged your posts as among the more balanced.  I hope you will reconsider.  Or, at least, I hope you will suggest a few good introductory resources so that I may continue on my own.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2008, 03:46:15 PM »

That is unfortunate.  I was hoping to learn something of substance from this thread.  I pegged your posts as among the more balanced.  I hope you will reconsider.  Or, at least, I hope you will suggest a few good introductory resources so that I may continue on my own.
I'm not sure what the exact question is here.
The fact is that there are similarities and there are differences between EO and EC, just as there are similarities and differences between RC and Western rite Orthodox. When all is said and done, when you are in an EC Church, although the liturgy and many of the spiritual practices are similar to those of the EO Church, still you are in a Catholic Church that recognises the supremacy of the Pope. When you are in a Western rite Orthodox Church, although the liturgy and some of the practices may be similar to those of the Western RC Church, still you are in a EO Church that does not recognise the supremacy of the Pope.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2008, 03:52:30 PM »

^^ Very true.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2008, 03:53:16 PM »

It doesn't matter WHAT the Roman Catholic Church or any of the Rites within it think about inter-communion.
For one, the Eastern Orthodox CATHOLIC bishops prohibit inter-communion.   
This post has turned into a CAF type thread where the Roman Catholics, and I don't care what rite they belong to, have just shelled out nothing but the typical;

-We're the only church on the planet everyone bows to the Pope
-Canon quotes abound
-the talk of "traditional catholics"  look, I don't think you understand that the Church is to be one and these little tag names separate the members into different groups.  What the heck is a traditional Catholic anyway,
Oh, yeah as evidenced by this whole ridiculous thread it is just another example that Roman Catholics can pick and choose what they want to believe and what they want to call themselves and who they will share communion with this week.  Bad news, traditional catholics sound just like the cafeteria catholics they complain about and judge.

-Still no one gets the point that the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church is a Church.  We have been around since day one.  The conversation keeps going in the direction of, well we decided at some point that they were a church so we'll give them communion oh and they're like us too.

-Still the fight is raging here on this thread among Roman Catholics of the Latin and Byzantine Rites.  You don't see any Eastern Orthodox Catholics arguing on this thread among themselves, why? I can give you the answer but hey, it won't matter anyway. 

-I still love the traditional Catholic tag, it's my favorite.  Can I be a traditional tea loving pre-council of lyons Catholic?  Sure I could that would be adding to the diversity right?

But I'm still told "this isn't the Roman Catholic praxis, or teaching on this or that"  I know the Roman Catholic teaching, the standard stuff you are to believe whether you are Byzantine rite or Chaldean rite. 

Sorry, username!, I already used up all my troll food on Papist.
-Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2008, 04:02:08 PM »

Sorry, username!, I already used up all my troll food on Papist.
-Peter.
Aww. We don't eats nasty troll food. It burns. It freezes.
Look man, just because I will not stop professing the Catholic Position, that does not make me a troll. Its funny. Whenever anyone is in the minority position on a forum, they are accused of being a troll. Such ad hominem attacks are unbecoming.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2008, 04:03:32 PM »

When all is said and done, when you are in an EC Church, although the liturgy and many of the spiritual practices are similar to those of the EO Church, still you are in a Catholic Church that recognises the supremacy of the Pope. When you are in a Western rite Orthodox Church, although the liturgy and some of the practices may be similar to those of the Western RC Church, still you are in a EO Church that does not recognise the supremacy of the Pope.

I think you hit the nail on the head.
-Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,177



« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2008, 04:07:56 PM »

Look man, just because I will not stop professing the Catholic Position, that does not make me a troll.

It's statements like that which show that you're a troll.

Its funny.

I think it just sad.

Blessings,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,436


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2008, 04:15:51 PM »

It's statements like that which show that you're a troll.

I think it just sad.

Blessings,
Peter.
And its down right pathetic that because I agree with the Church you call me a troll. Its dishonest way to deal with some one you disagree with.

I think its sad.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,146


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2008, 04:35:29 PM »

Temporary cool-down period - I'm locking this thread for one week.  It will be reopened next Wednesday. - Cleveland, Global Moderator
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.187 seconds with 86 queries.