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Author Topic: The Theology of Metropolitan John Zizioulas  (Read 26008 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2008, 10:17:04 PM »

And what is that condemnation that you speak of? Wink
Read the passage from 1 Corinthians to which I referred you, and see if that doesn't answer your question.
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« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2008, 10:36:47 PM »

Read the passage from 1 Corinthians to which I referred you, and see if that doesn't answer your question.
I don't see what you mean. Those verses support both theologies.
When Adam ate the fruit. Did God condemn him to just death or did he say, you will die and then go to hell. Eternal death is Hell.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2008, 10:46:08 PM »

I don't see what you mean. Those verses support both theologies.
I'm not speaking high theology here.

Quote
When Adam ate the fruit. Did God condemn him to just death or did he say, you will die and then go to hell. Eternal death is Hell.
I think you're reading into this discussion, and my participation in it, much more than I intend to communicate.  IOW, you're making things much more complicated than they need to be.
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« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2008, 04:55:58 AM »

It doesn't differ one bit. The difference is that the end result is hell instead of hell. But what is hell?
For the sake of Orthodox that might read this, I'll just put the link to the taching of "Bishop" Spong which you claim doesn't differ for what Metr. Zlizloulas teaches (I don't know if he'd agree with you, but let each one decides for oneself).
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html

Quote
The issues to which I now call the Christians of the world to debate are these:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
The difference is that the end result is hell instead of hell. But what is hell?

I haven't had a revelation about hell, and I am unaware of any Church teaching about it, save from Apocalypsis of St. John the Theologian. No Church Father spoke about it, I guess they had good reasons for that. Therefore, I can't answer your question. But, it seems to me it was a rethorical one, and that you are prepared to answer it, I'm eager to listen the answer that Holy Fathers before your teachers have not addressed. I'm transformed into an ear.

If eternal life is infinite that why are you looking at time? Recapitulation doesn't include time.
You really don't see it do you? The end times are at every liturgy. Are not the saints there judging us in the Icons. Church is a depiction of the last day.

The apples and oranges you are mixing here are based on grave misconception of basics of Orthodox Faith. Liturgy is resemblance of the Judgment Day (but not only of it I'd say), while eucharist is Christ's real flash and blood. It was you who tried to make a false equilizer between praying for the intercession of Saints before an icon and epiklezis of eucharist.

It seems you are either heavily puzzled, or do not confess Orthodox Faith.

Is that what Metr. Zlizloulas' teaching lead you to? Is that why you are failing to address the questions I asked?
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« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2008, 10:12:25 AM »



I haven't had a revelation about hell, and I am unaware of any Church teaching about it, save from Apocalypsis of St. John the Theologian. No Church Father spoke about it, I guess they had good reasons for that. Therefore, I can't answer your question. But, it seems to me it was a rethorical one, and that you are prepared to answer it, I'm eager to listen the answer that Holy Fathers before your teachers have not addressed. I'm transformed into an ear.

Many of the fathers speak of Hell. They give insight to what it is. How one interprets it all depends on the condition of the soul. What I look at is the Dogma on creation. After all it is Dogma. Created from Nihl has consequences. What are they? They are a return to Nihl.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2008, 10:17:51 AM »



The apples and oranges you are mixing here are based on grave misconception of basics of Orthodox Faith. Liturgy is resemblance of the Judgment Day (but not only of it I'd say), while eucharist is Christ's real flash and blood. It was you who tried to make a false equilizer between praying for the intercession of Saints before an icon and epiklezis of eucharist.


The blood and body of Christ is real. Just as when we Pray to the saints and they hear us. A depiction doesn't mean it isn't or can not happen. You partake of the Original when we meet the requirement that lead us to the Original.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2008, 10:28:34 AM »

They are a return to Nihl.


No, sinners will be in hell, which is a conscious place of suffering for eternity. All people will be resurrected: good and bad, and judged together. This is Orthodox teaching. Here are the texts from the Sunday of the Last Judgment that prove this.



RIGHTEOUS JUDGE OF ALL MANKIND!
YOU WILL COME TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD,
ENTHRONED IN GLORY AND ESCORTED BY YOUR ANGELS.
EVERY MAN WILL STAND IN FEAR BEFORE YOU,
TREMBLING AT THE RIVER OF FIRE FLOWING PAST YOUR THRONE,
AS EACH ONE WAITS TO HEAR THE SENTENCE HE DESERVES.
ON THAT AWESOME DAY HAVE MERCY ON US AS WELL, O CHRIST;
COUNT US WORTHY OF SALVATION,
FOR, WORTHLESS AS WE ARE, WE TURN TO YOU IN FAITH,//
COMPASSIONATE AND MERCIFUL LORD!

THE BOOKS WILL BE OPENED AND THE WORKS OF ALL MEN LAID BARE:
THE VALE OF TEARS WILL ECHO WITH GNASHING OF TEETH;
THE SINNERS WILL MOURN IN VAIN, AS THEY DEPART TO ETERNAL DAMNATION.

YOUR JUDGMENTS ARE JUST, O LORD ALMIGHTY!
WE BEG YOU, MASTER, FULL OF GOODNESS AND COMPASSION://
TAKE PITY ON US WHO SING TO YOU, MOST MERCIFUL ONE!

THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND AND THE GRAVES BE OPENED:
ALL MANKIND WILL ARISE IN TREMBLING;
THE RIGHTEOUS WILL REJOICE, AS THEY RECEIVE THEIR REWARD,
BUT THE WICKED WILL DEPART TO ETERNAL FIRE WITH WAILING AND HORROR.
LORD OF GLORY, HAVE MERCY ON US!
NUMBER US WITH THOSE WHO LOVE YOU, MASTER,//
FOR YOU ALONE ARE GOOD!

I SHUDDER IN TERROR WHEN I THINK OF THAT DREADFUL DAY;
I WEEP AS I CONSIDER THE DARKNESS THAT WILL NEVER SEE LIGHT:
THERE THE WORM SHALL NOT CEASE, OR THE FIRE BE QUENCHED;
THE PAIN OF THOSE WHO REJECT YOU WILL NEVER END.
SAVE ME, YOUR MOST WORTHLESS SERVANT, RIGHTEOUS JUDGE,//
FOR YOUR MERCY AND COMPASSION ARE MY ONLY HOPE!


WHEN THE THRONES ARE SET IN PLACE AND THE BOOKS ARE OPENED,
THEN GOD WILL TAKE HIS PLACE ON THE JUDGMENT-SEAT.
WHAT A FEARFUL SIGHT,
AS THE ANGELS STAND IN AWE AND THE RIVER OF FIRE FLOWS BY:
WHAT SHALL WE DO, WHO ARE ALREADY CONDEMNED BY OUR MANY SINS,
AS WE HEAR CHRIST CALL THE RIGHTEOUS TO HIS FATHER'S KINGDOM,
AND SEND THE WICKED TO ETERNAL DAMNATION?

WHO AMONG US CAN BEAR THAT TERRIBLE VERDICT?
HASTEN TO US, LOVER OF MANKIND AND KING OF THE UNIVERSE://
GRANT US THE GRACE OF REPENTANCE BEFORE THE END AND HAVE MERCY ON US!



WHEN YOU, O GOD, SHALL COME TO EARTH WITH GLORY,
ALL THINGS SHALL TREMBLE,
AND THE RIVER OF FIRE SHALL FLOW BEFORE YOUR JUDGMENT SEAT,
THE BOOKS SHALL BE OPENED AND THE HIDDEN THINGS DISCLOSED;
THEN DELIVER ME FROM THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE,//
AND MAKE ME WORTHY TO STAND AT YOUR RIGHT HAND, RIGHTEOUS JUDGE!

                                                                               
Terror and amazement seize me
when I think of the unquenchable fire of Gehenna,
of the bitter worm and gnashing teeth.                                         
But release me and forgive me, O Christ,                                       
and set me in the ranks of Your elect.                                       
Unworthy though I be,                                                         
may I also hear Your voice                                                     
that so greatly desired, calls Your saints to joy,                             
and may I attain the ineffable blessings of the Kingdom of heaven.             
                                                                               
When at the judgement of the world
You will separate the sinners from the righteous,

count me as one of Your sheep
and do not place me with the goats, loving Lord,
but may I hear Your words of blessing.

The river of fire devours and torments me;                             
the gnashing of teeth grinds me to dust.                               
The darkness of the abyss fills my heart with dismay,                 
and what can I do to gain God's mercy?                                 
                                                                       
Spare, Lord, spare Your servant;                                     
do not deliver me to the bitter tormentors,                           
to the cruel angels of hell,                                           
who will never let me be at rest. 
                                   
                                                                                                                                             
Lord, Pardon, remit and forgive all my sins against You;
do not condemn me there, in the presence of the angels,               
to the punishment of fire and to unending shame.                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
Deliver me, Lord, from the gates of hell,
from chaos and darkness without light,
from the lowest depths of the earth and the unquenchable fire,
and from all the other everlasting punishments.

Lord of supreme love, as I think upon Your fearful judgement seat and
the day of Judgement, I tremble and am filled with fear, accused by my
own conscience.  When You sit on Your throne and bring all to trial
then no one will be able to deny his sins, for the truth will accuse
him and terror will hold him fast.  The flames of Gehenna will roar
and the sinners will gnash their teeth.  Therefore have mercy upon me
before the end,//AND SPARE ME, RIGHTEOUS JUDGE!


             
Terror seizes me when I think of the unquenchable fire,                       
of the bitter worm, the gnashing of teeth, and soul-destroying hell;           
yet I do not turn to true compunction.                                         
Lord, Lord, before the end, strengthen Your fear within me.                   

When You, O God, shall judge all things,                                     
who among us earthborn, beset by passions,
shall dare to stand before You?
Then the unquenchable fire and the destroying worm                             
shall seize the condemned and hold them fast forever.
                         
                                                                               
The Lord comes to punish sinners and to save the righteous.
Let us tremble and lament,
and call to mind that day when our hidden secrets will be disclosed
and He will pay us what is due.

                                                                   
BEHOLD, THE DAY OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY COMES,                       
AND WHO CAN ENDURE THE FEAR OF HIS PRESENCE?                       
IT IS A DAY OF WRATH; OF THE BURNING, FIERY FURNACE,               
AND THE JUDGE SHALL SIT, GIVING EACH THE DUE REWARD OF HIS WORKS.
                                                                   
I THINK UPON THAT DAY AND HOUR                                                   
WHEN WE SHALL ALL STAND NAKED AS MEN CONDEMNED                                 
BEFORE THE JUDGE WHO RESPECTS NO MAN'S PERSON.                                   
THEN THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND                                                     
AND THE EARTH'S FOUNDATIONS SHALL SHAKE:                                         
THE DEAD SHALL RISE FROM THEIR GRAVES,                                           
AND MEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TOGETHER FROM ALL GENERATIONS.                         
THEN EACH MAN'S SECRETS WILL BE OPENLY BROUGHT BEFORE YOU,                     
AND THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER REPENTED SHALL WEEP AND LAMENT,                         
DEPARTING TO THE OUTER FIRE;
                                                     
BUT WITH GLADNESS AND REJOICING//                                               
THE COMPANY OF THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL ENTER THE HEAVENLY BRIDAL CHAMBER!           

                                                                                 
HOW SHALL IT BE IN THAT FEARFUL DAY AND HOUR,                                   
WHEN THE JUDGE SHALL SIT ON HIS DREADFUL THRONE!                                 
THE BOOKS SHALL BE OPENED, AND MEN'S ACTIONS EXAMINED,                         
AND THE SECRETS OF DARKNESS SHALL BE MADE PUBLIC.                               
ANGELS SHALL MOVE QUICKLY, GATHERING ALL THE NATIONS:                           
COME AND HEARKEN, KINGS AND PRINCES,                                             
THOSE WHO WERE SLAVES AND FREE,                                                 
SINNERS AND RIGHTEOUS, RICH AND POOR:                                           
FOR THE JUDGE IS COME TO PASS SENTENCE ON ALL OF THE INHABITED EARTH!
           
AND WHO SHALL BEAR TO STAND BEFORE HIS FACE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE
                                                           ANGELS,
CALLING US TO ACCOUNT FOR OUR ACTIONS AND THOUGHTS BY NIGHT OR BY DAY?         
HOW SHALL IT BE THEN IN THAT HOUR?                                             
BUT BEFORE THE END IS HERE, MAKE HASTE, MY SOUL,//                             
CRYING:  TURN ME BACK AND SAVE ME, ONLY COMPASSIONATE GOD!                   

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« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2008, 10:33:13 AM »

Hades is a place that man can come back from. All will resurrect to be judged. Hell is the second death.
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« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2008, 10:47:38 AM »

Many of the fathers speak of Hell.
Some reference, please. Not necessarily "many" but a few would suffice.
Hades is a place that man can come back from. All will resurrect to be judged. Hell is the second death.
I'd really appreciate the reference to Hades as the place. I claim it's never been the teaching of the Church.

Created from Nihl has consequences. What are they? They are a return to Nihl.

That'll do fine for phylosophers, gnostics and socialists you posted above as relevant.

Us, Orthodox Christians, know the return to the Creator is promised and immortality is the properties of soul.

The blood and body of Christ is real. Just as when we Pray to the saints and they hear us. A depiction doesn't mean it isn't or can not happen.
And who exactly claimed anything else here?

You partake of the Original when we meet the requirement that lead us to the Original.

Would you translate it into English, please?
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« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2008, 11:08:40 AM »

Some reference, please. Not necessarily "many" but a few would suffice.I'd really appreciate the reference to Hades as the place. I claim it's never been the teaching of the Church.
Read the Bible.
Quote
That'll do fine for phylosophers, gnostics and socialists you posted above as relevant.

Us, Orthodox Christians, know the return to the Creator is promised and immortality is the properties of soul.
[/quote]
Saint Irenaeus puts it: "The teaching that the human soul is naturally immortal is from the devil" (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching, III, 20. 1).

In the Great Euchologion (Venice, 1862), a fundamental liturgical book of the Church, we read:
"O God, the great and most high, Thou Who alone hast immortality"


                [7th prayer of Vespers, p. 15]

"Thou Who alone art life-giving by nature... O only immortal"

            [Ode 5, Funeral Canon for Laymen, p. 410]

"Thou art the only immortal" [p.  410]

"The only One Who is immortal because of His godly nature"

            [Ode 1, Funeral Canon for Laymen, p. 471]

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2008, 11:19:37 AM »

the soul is not naturally immortal but once created, God allows it to exist by grace for eternity, for both good and bad people.
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2008, 11:24:14 AM »

the soul is not naturally immortal but once created, God allows it to exist by grace for eternity, for both good and bad people.
Wouldn't that mean that the soul is immortal?
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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2008, 11:28:06 AM »

Wouldn't that mean that the soul is immortal?

Yes, but not "naturally".

BTW, where did I mention the word "naturally"? It's easier for you to refute what I never said than to respond to my questions.

According to you, is the sentence:

Immortality is the properties of the soul

heretical, or is there something else wrong with it?
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« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »

the soul is not naturally immortal but once created, God allows it to exist by grace for eternity, for both good and bad people.

I'd phrase it a bit different - God creates soul immortal and it can cease to exist only by a destructive act of God.
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« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2008, 11:30:49 AM »

Read the Bible.

LOL

Is that best you can do?
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« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2008, 11:39:17 AM »

     St. Athanasius on the incarnation; 

3. Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ; and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked-namely, the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree, they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things-namely, a law and a place.

4. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature ; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again.

5. This, then, was the plight of men. God had not only made them out of nothing, but had also graciously bestowed on them His own life by the grace of the Word. Then, turning from eternal things to things corruptible, by counsel of the devil, they had become the cause of their own corruption in death; for, as I said before, though they were by nature subject to corruption, the grace of their union with the Word made them capable of escaping from the natural law, provided that they 'retained the beauty of innocence with which they were created.
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« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2008, 11:42:14 AM »

I'd phrase it a bit different - God creates soul immortal and it can cease to exist only by a destructive act of God.
Wrong read above. man is the reason for his own death.
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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2008, 11:48:08 AM »

I think I have proven my point. There is no need to go any further. I know what my Church teaches. If you want to bask in Protestantism. no problem with me.
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« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2008, 11:49:19 AM »

Wrong read above. man is the reason for his own death.

Are all followers of metr. Zlizloulas bound to express themselves in cryptic, minimalistic, inconclusive and defect manner, or just I haven't had meet one that expresses himself reasonably?
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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2008, 11:52:44 AM »

I think I have proven my point. There is no need to go any further. I know what my Church teaches. If you want to bask in Protestantism. no problem with me.


Huh?

Is that all?

Where are the answers to my questions?

Why did you imply and refuted words I never said, but failed to address questions about the teaching?
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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2008, 11:55:26 AM »

     St. Athanasius on the incarnation; 

4. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature ; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again.


This is a false quote, St. Atanasios addressed here the state before Christ, before the Incarnation of Son as Jesus Christ. Still he hasn't used the finite verb, but infinite - returning to non-existence.

Lousy teaching needs false quotations.
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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2008, 12:11:02 PM »

Wouldn't that mean that the soul is immortal?

Of course it would, but not "naturally", since we are not platonists, but Orthodox Christians whom believe that God created all things, visible and invisible.

Just like St. John of Damascus thaught us

http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactii.html#BOOK_II_CHAPTER_XII

Quote
<- BOOK II CHAPTER XII ->
Concerning Man.

IN this way, then, God brought into existence mental essence(6), by which I mean, angels and all the heavenly orders. For these clearly have a mental and incorporeal nature: "incorporeal" I mean in comparison with the denseness of matter. For the Deity alone in reality is immaterial and incorporeal. But further He created in the same way sensible essence(7), that is heaven and earth and the intermediate region; and so He created both the kind of being that is of His own nature (for the nature that has to do with reason is related to God, and apprehensible by mind alone), and the kind which, inasmuch as it clearly falls under the province of the senses, is separated from Him by the greatest interval. And it was also fit that there should be a mixture of both kinds of being, as a token of still greater wisdom and of the opulence of the Divine expenditure as regards natures, as Gregorius, the expounder of God's being and ways, puts it, and to be a sort of connecting link between the visible and invisible natures(Cool. And by the word "fit" I mean, simply that it was an evidence of the Creator's will, for that will is the law and ordinance most meet, and no one will say to his Maker, "Why hast Thou so fashioned me?" For the potter is able at his will to make vessels of various patterns out of his clay(9), as a proof of his own wisdom.

Now this being the case, He creates with His own hands man of a visible nature and an invisible, after His own image and likeness: on the one hand man's body He formed of earth, and on the other his reasoning and

thinking soul(1) He bestowed upon him by His own inbreathing, and this is what we mean by "after His image." For the phrase "after His image" clearly refers(2) to the side of his nature which consists of mind and free will, whereas "after His likeness "means likeness in virtue so far as that is possible.

Further, body and soul were formed at one and the same time(3), not first the one and then the other, as Origen so senselessly supposes.

God then made man without evil, upright, virtuous, free from pain and care, glorified with every virtue, adorned with all that is good, like a sort of second microcosm within the great world(4). another angel capable of worship, compound, surveying the visible creation and initiated into the mysteries of the realm of thought, king over the things of earth, but subject to a higher king, of the earth and of the heaven, temporal and eternal, belonging to the realm of sight and to the realm of thought, midway between greatness and lowliness, spirit and flesh: for he is spirit by grace, but flesh by overweening pride: spirit that he may abide and glorify his Benefactor, and flesh that he may suffer, and suffering may be admonished and disciplined when he prides himself in his greatness(5): here, that is, in the present life, his life is ordered as an animal's, but elsewhere, that is, in the age to come, he is changed and--to complete the mystery--becomes deified by merely inclining himself towards God; becoming deified, in the way of participating in the divine glory and not in that of a change into the divine being(6).

But God made him by nature sinless, and endowed him with free will. By sinless, I mean not that sin could find no place in him (for that is the case with Deity alone), bat that sin is the result of the free volition he enjoys rather than an integral part of his nature(7); that is to say, he has the power to continue and go forward in the path of goodness, by co-operating with the divine grace, and likewise to turn from good and take to wickedness, for God has conceded this by conferring freedom of will upon him. For there is no virtue in what is the result of mere force(Cool.

The soul, accordingly(9), is a living essence, simple, incorporeal, invisible in its proper nature to bodily eyes, immortal, reasoning and intelligent, formless, making use of an organised body, and being the source of its powers of life, and growth, and sensation, and generation(1), mind being but its purest part and not in any wise alien to it; (for as the eye to the body, so is the mind to the soul); further it enjoys freedom and volition and energy, and is mutable, that is, it is given to change, because it is created. All these qualities according to nature it has received of the grace of the Creator, of which grace it has received both its being and this particular kind of nature.

Marg. The different applications of "incorporeal." We understand two kinds of what is incorporeal and invisible and formless: the one is such in essence, the other by free gift: and likewise the one is such in nature, and the other only in comparison with the denseness of matter. God then is incorporeal by nature, but the angels and demons and souls are said to be so by free gift, and in comparison with the denseness of matter.

Further, body is that which has three dimensions, that is to say, it has length and breadth and depth, or thickness. And every body is composed of the four elements; the bodies of living creatures, moreover, are composed of the four humours.

Now there are, it should be known, four elements: earth which is dry and cold: water which is cold and wet: air which is wet and warm: fire which is warm and dry. In like manner there are also four humours, analogous to the four elements: black bile, which bears an analogy to earth, for it is dry and cold: phlegm, analogous to water, for it is cold and wet: blood, analogous to air(2), for it is wet and warm: yellow bile, the analogue to fire, for it is warm and city. Now, fruits are composed of the elements, and the humours are composed of the fruits, and the bodies of living creatures consist of the humours and dissolve back into them. For every thing that is compound dissolves back into its elements.

Marg. That man has community alike with inanimate things and animate creatures, whe-

ther they are devoid of or possess the faculty of reason.

Man, it is to be noted, has community with things inanimate, and participates in the life of unreasoning creatures, and shares in the mental processes of those endowed with reason. For the bond of union between man and inanimate things is the body and its composition out of the font elements: and the bond between man and plants consists, in addition to these things, of their powers of nourishment and growth and seeding, that is, generation: and finally, over and above these links man is connected with unreasoning animals by appetite, that is anger and desire, and sense and impulsive movement.

There are then five senses, sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch. Further, impulsive movement consists in change from place to place, and in the movements of the body as a whole and in the emission of voice and the drawing of breath. For we have it in our power to perform or refrain from performing these actions.

Lastly, man's reason unites him to incorporeal and intelligent natures, for he applies his reason and mind and judgment to everything, and pursues after virtues, and eagerly follows after piety, which is the crown of the virtues. And so man is a microcosm.

Moreover, it should be known that division and flux and change(3) are peculiar to the body alone. By change, I mean change in quality, that is in heat and cold and so forth: by flux, I mean change in the way of depletion(4), for dry things and wet things and spirit s suffer depletion, and require repletion: so that hunger and thirst are natural affections. Again, division is the separation of the humours, one from another, and the partition into form and matter(6).

But piety and thought are the peculiar properties of the soul. And the virtues are common to soul and body, although they are referred to the soul as if the soul were making use of the body.

The reasoning part, it should be understood, naturally bears rule over that which is void of reason. For the faculties of the soul are divided into that which has reason, and that which is without reason. Again, of that which is without reason there are two divisions: that which does not listen to reason, that is to say, is disobedient to reason, and that which listens and obeys reason. That which does not listen or obey reason is the vital or pulsating faculty, and the spermatic or generative faculty, and the vegetative or nutritive faculty: to this belong also the faculties of growth and bodily formation. For these are not under the dominion of reason but under that of nature. That which listens to and obeys reason, on the other hand is divided into anger anti desire. And the unreasoning part of the soul is called in common the pathetic and the appetitive(7). Further, it is to be understood, that impulsive movement s likewise belongs to the part that is obedient to reason.

The part(9) which does not pay heed to reason includes the nutritive and generative and pulsating faculties: and the name "vegetative(9a)" is applied to the faculties of increase and nutriment and generation, and the name "vital" to the faculty of pulsation.

Of the faculty of nutrition, then, there are four forces: an attractive force which attracts nourishment: a retentive force by which nourishment is retained and not suffered to be immediately excreted: an alterative force by which the food is resolved into the humours: and an excretive force, by which the excess of food is excreted into the draught and cast forth.

The forces again(1), inherent in a living creature are, it should be noted, partly psychical, partly vegetative, partly vital. The psychical forces are concerned with free volition, that is to say, impulsive movement and sensation. Impulsive movement includes change of place and movement of the body as a whole, and phonation and respiration. For it is in our power to perform or refrain from performing these acts. The vegetative and vital forces, however, are quite outside the province of will. The vegetative, moreover, include the faculties of nourishment and growth, and generation, and the vital power is the faculty of pulsation. For these go on energising whether we will it or not.

Lastly, we must observe that of actual things, some are good, and some are bad. A good thing in anticipation constitutes desire: while a good thing in realisation constitutes pleasure. Similarly an evil thing in anticipation begets fear, and in realisation it begets pain. And when we speak of good in this connection we are to be understood to mean both real and apparent good: and, similarly, we mean real and apparent evil. 
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« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2008, 12:30:48 PM »

Wouldn't that mean that the soul is immortal?

No, not in the sense you mean.
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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2008, 12:32:06 PM »

I think I have proven my point. There is no need to go any further. I know what my Church teaches. If you want to bask in Protestantism. no problem with me.

No you haven't, and Orthodoxy does not teach what you are saying it does. Does your priest and bishop know that you confess soul destruction and a non-eternal hell?
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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2008, 12:43:29 PM »

No, not in the sense you mean.

Excuse me, Anastasios, but what is wrong with sound Christian doctrine of immortality of soul?

I mean, nobody here mentioned that soul isn't created by God ex nihilo, or that its immortality is caused by anything else but by God. That we leave to platonists, gnostics, socialists or whomever.
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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2008, 01:04:18 PM »

Excuse me, Anastasios, but what is wrong with sound Christian doctrine of immortality of soul?

I mean, nobody here mentioned that soul isn't created by God ex nihilo, or that its immortality is caused by anything else but by God. That we leave to platonists, gnostics, socialists or whomever.

Right that is what I meant.
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« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2008, 01:06:23 PM »

No you haven't, and Orthodoxy does not teach what you are saying it does. Does your priest and bishop know that you confess soul destruction and a non-eternal hell?

Unless things have changed since the last discussion, no, his priest and bishop have no idea what he is confessing on internet forums.
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« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2008, 01:17:25 PM »

Demetrios,

For many of us here, theology is not the proper subject of the impious discourse and the irreverent intellectual speculation that seems to mark so much of modern academics.  Theology is instead man's feeble attempt to articulate that which God has revealed of Himself to us and is intended to inspire a sense of fear and reverent awe toward God and His saving plan for mankind.  Seen in this light, theology is a deadly serious endeavor, since our very salvation is at stake.
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« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2008, 07:33:21 PM »

No you haven't, and Orthodoxy does not teach what you are saying it does. Does your priest and bishop know that you confess soul destruction and a non-eternal hell?
Eternal death is hell. Who said that death can not be Eternal. Nihl is eternal.
Weather God creates the conditions for man to exist in your type of hell by keeping man alive or he condemns as a protestant is the same thing. If God has created the condition for suffering he already knows what that suffering will do. Your theology is than, no different than a protestant who judges. People hold on to this belief because they need a revenge for those they hate.
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« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2008, 07:51:06 PM »

Unless things have changed since the last discussion, no, his priest and bishop have no idea what he is confessing on internet forums.
I'll give you his number. you can call him.
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« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2008, 02:27:18 AM »

Eternal death is hell. Who said that death can not be Eternal. Nihl is eternal.
Weather God creates the conditions for man to exist in your type of hell by keeping man alive or he condemns as a protestant is the same thing. If God has created the condition for suffering he already knows what that suffering will do. Your theology is than, no different than a protestant who judges. People hold on to this belief because they need a revenge for those they hate.
Maybe in this case Protestants have a better understanding of biblical doctrine than you have.  History also shows us that it wasn't Protestants who first articulated a doctrine of eternal suffering in hell--it was none other than Jesus Christ who did this, as Anastastios has attempted to remind you.
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« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2008, 03:44:32 AM »

Weather God creates the conditions for man to exist in your type of hell by keeping man alive or he condemns as a protestant is the same thing.

God doesn't "keep man alive" in Hades, nor he will be "keeping man alive" in eternal Hell.

Immortality is a properties of soul, for God creates soul immortal.

Judgment is not punishment in the sense of God's revenge, it is not aimed at eternal revenge, but is consequence of our free will and for what we have done during our lifetime.

Nobody has ever known what the Hell is like. At least nobody Orthodox - Hell in its fullness is yet to be established when bodies are resurrected.
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« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2008, 08:28:55 AM »

God doesn't "keep man alive" in Hades, nor he will be "keeping man alive" in eternal Hell.
Exactly

Quote
Immortality is a properties of soul, for God creates soul immortal.
Souls are immortal only when in communion with Christ.

Quote
Judgment is not punishment in the sense of God's revenge, it is not aimed at eternal revenge, but is consequence of our free will and for what we have done during our lifetime.
God is a bi-polar god than. He loves you but he hates you.
Quote
Nobody has ever known what the Hell is like. At least nobody Orthodox - Hell in its fullness is yet to be established when bodies are resurrected.
[/quote]
Hell is a condition for the living. When one is in there sins they are in hell.
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« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2008, 09:29:39 AM »

Eternal death is hell. Who said that death can not be Eternal. Nihl is eternal.
Weather God creates the conditions for man to exist in your type of hell by keeping man alive or he condemns as a protestant is the same thing. If God has created the condition for suffering he already knows what that suffering will do. Your theology is than, no different than a protestant who judges. People hold on to this belief because they need a revenge for those they hate.

I've posted the Orthodox liturgical texts. Why do you disagree with what the Fathers have written?
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« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2008, 09:33:42 AM »

Souls are immortal only when in communion with Christ.

Stop here. Prove it or admit it's utter nonsense.

I claim souls are created immortal by God ex nihilo. Therefore:

God is a bi-polar god than. He loves you but he hates you.

Is non-conclusive from what Orthodoxy profess and I'm trying to present to you.

Once created immortal, they'll end up eternally either with God in Paradise, or with the master of death in hell, but again immortal, since they are created such.

Hell is a condition for the living.

Haven't you said above that Hades is the place (and not a condition)?

When one is in there sins they are in hell.

In foretaste of it only. Hell still doesn't exist in its fullness - it will be such once the bodies are resurrected.
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« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2008, 09:47:11 AM »

I've posted the Orthodox liturgical texts. Why do you disagree with what the Fathers have written?
I don't. Your interpretation of the text is flawed.
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« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2008, 09:48:29 AM »

Stop here. Prove it or admit it's utter nonsense.

I extend the same offer to you. Prove that the soul is immortal.
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« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2008, 09:55:04 AM »

I extend the same offer to you. Prove that the soul is immortal.
I already have:

Just like St. John of Damascus thaught us

http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exactii.html#BOOK_II_CHAPTER_XII

<- BOOK II CHAPTER XII ->
Concerning Man.
...

The soul, accordingly(9), is a living essence, simple, incorporeal, invisible in its proper nature to bodily eyes, immortal, reasoning and intelligent, formless, making use of an organised body, and being the source of its powers of life, and growth, and sensation, and generation(1), mind being but its purest part and not in any wise alien to it; (for as the eye to the body, so is the mind to the soul); further it enjoys freedom and volition and energy, and is mutable, that is, it is given to change, because it is created. All these qualities according to nature it has received of the grace of the Creator, of which grace it has received both its being and this

Now I'm waiting for your proof.
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« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2008, 10:02:52 AM »

I already have:

Now I'm waiting for your proof.

How can human nature unite as a whole in Christ. That my friend is your question. It can not. Your answer is below.

 
Quote
In the 38th epistle of Saint Basil, we note the following that was written by the saint, regarding the subject of inter-embracing: “Whatever the Father is, is also found in the Son. And whatever the Son is, is also found in the Father. The Son is found in His entirety within the Father and He respectively has the Father in His entirety within Him. Thus, the hypostasis of the Son is the image and the likeness by which the Father is recognized.  And the hypostasis of the Father is recognized in the image of the Son”.  This is where the phrase of the fourth Gospel relates to : “Whomsoever has seen me, has seen the Father, for I am in the Father and the Father is in me”.  Whomsoever sees the Son, also sees the Father. The Father is fully present, and the Son is fully present within the Father. In this way,  each hypostasis, each persona becomes the bearer of the entire Essence.  Godhood cannot be partitioned or fragmented; each Persona possesses godhood, undivided and complete.

This is precisely what allows each persona to exist inside the other personae. Saint Gregory the Nazianzene says:  “Godhood is unpartitioned, among its parts”.  Godhood, nature, essence cannot be partitioned.  It is however found in full, in the individual personae, in other words, in the personae that are different to each other.

Here we have a mysterious, paradoxical concept, which of course one could call a mystery (like the whole mystery of the Holy Trinity) and not attempt to comprehend at all.  But, as we attempted to do so with the other aspects of this great mystery of the Holy Trinity, we shall likewise attempt to shed light on this mystery also.

How is it possible, for one persona to be the bearer of the entire Essence, and how is it possible for a persona to exist inside another persona, without losing its identity?  Because, if we place two personae inside each other, there is the risk that they may relate to each other so much, that their individuality may be lost. On the contrary, here, the existence of the one persona inside the others actually creates an “individuality”, a “selfsameness”, an “anotherness”. In our experience this is not possible, and the Fathers attribute this to the fact that our nature –the essence of humanity- is partitioned when the persona comes into being. No single person is the bearer of the entire human essence, because if he were the bearer of the entire human essence, then at the death of one person, all people would have to die – all of the essence of humanity. The entirety of human nature would be eliminated, with the death of one man alone. But in the case of mankind, we have a partitioning of the essence and of the nature, with the birth of every single person.  This is attributed to the fact that the created being is composite, it has a beginning, and it moves within the limits of space and time, where space and time divide, and not unite.  This is why the created are also mortal/perishable.

These conditions cannot apply to God, as God has no beginning, and He has no mortality. Subsequently, He has no partitioning of the essence. With the three personae, the Essence is not partitioned into three parts, so that each persona has a part; instead, each persona takes all of the essence, it has all of the essence.

In our experience, if we examine the biological hypostasis of man, we can see that this does not apply, because we are all born with this partitioning nature. Hence the existence of death. Apart from the above, in our experience when we refer to personal relations, we can observe the phenomenon whereby a specific person has been regarded as the bearer of the entire human essence, of human existence. For example, in an announcement regarding the victims of a battle, the Ministry of Defence will say that there were ten fatalities. To a person who has no personal relations with those ten dead people, they are ten different people, whose individual deaths did not affect human nature in its entirety. Other people continue to exist, who continue to live and therefore human nature will continue to perpetuate itself. But for the mother of each of those deceased, or for someone who had a personal relationship with them, that one deceased person is a bearer of the entire human essence. He cannot be counted as “one of the ten”. He is the one, the person, the entire person. All of human nature is at risk of vanishing, when one person vanishes.  This is our experience within a personal association. Outside of a personal association, we cannot have this kind of experience. And why is this? Because this unity is so close, between two people, that the one actually considers the other to be the bearer of human essence, of human existence in its fullness,   

With these precise types of categorizing in the back of our mind, we can explain why this paradoxical and no less mysterious phenomenon occurs, as applied to the Holy Trinity. For example, when considering how the murder of one person is equivalent to a “crime against all of mankind”.  Or, when we say “after all, only one man was killed, the world isn’t lost”… Why is this?  Where do all these ideas of generalizing, of absolutizing a single person to such an extent spring from?  Well, all these ideas spring from our experience of personal relations, from our experience of the persona. The more we regard someone a persona, the more we regard him the bearer of humanity overall.

We have taken this from the concept that we have of God, because this is what God, the Holy Trinity means: that a single persona is not a portion of the essence; it is the entire essence. Thus, we can observe in our own experience also, indications of such a Triadic existence - the same manner of existence as the Holy Trinity. And that is what makes us human beings the images of God. When we say that man is made in the image of God, we need to look for the analogies between God and man, based on the triadic association. This is why the dogma on the Holy Trinity is so important. Because it sheds light on man’s very existence.


http://www.oodegr.com/english/dogmatiki1/D2b.htm  [Inserted reference  --Anastasios]
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« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2008, 10:11:53 AM »

How can human nature unite as a whole in Christ. That my friend is your question. It can not. Your answer is below.



Forgive me, but it is not up to you to rephrase my questions.

BTW, who is the author of that rubbish utter nonsense you posted? A socialist or a gnostic again?
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« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2008, 10:15:14 AM »

How can human nature unite as a whole in Christ. That my friend is your question. 

It isn't my question, since I'm an Orthodox Christian and I'm not striving to unite my nature (as a whole?) in Christ, but to unite my person.
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« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2008, 10:38:37 AM »

Your liturgy is short on references to the Holy Spirit (explicit or implicit) and is at least one reason, IMHO, why liturgical scholars such as Keith F. Pecklers, S.J. and James F. White, among others, bemoan that an eschatological element is tragically missing from the Roman liturgy (and I would extrapolate from this the Western Christian experience in general), and why I think the transformative nature of the liturgy and the Church has not been successfully appropriated or understood by the West.

You may have a point there, Pravoslavbob; but it's a little hard to tell, what with the way you're lumping all Catholic liturgies together, whether they be Roman, Ambrosian, Byzantine, Chaldean, Coptic, Maronite, etc. etc.
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« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2008, 11:08:59 AM »

I don't. Your interpretation of the text is flawed.

There is nothing to interpret. The text is clear.
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« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2008, 11:12:49 AM »

From Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos:

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.07.htm
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« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2008, 11:14:31 AM »

It isn't my question, since I'm an Orthodox Christian and I'm not striving to unite my nature (as a whole?) in Christ, but to unite my person.
That is correct. But what makes you think that your nature is already united?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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