Topic: Sould Popes Kiss the Quran?

[Amdetsion]

stashko

One day you may get a chance to read The Slave Narratives.

The collection of prayers, songs and writtings of African slaves in America is a daugnting record of utter hopelessness and despair heaped onto a people by a people who claimed Christ as their savior for over 400 years.

I mention this because I think reading it will help you, me and others to learn 'true' forgiveness that Christ teaches. This forgiveness is not to be confused with satans' "forgive but don't forget" kind of "forgiveness" that we all currently enjoy. Forgiving and not forgetting is wickedness; pure and uncut. 'True' forgiveness is very painful to people like us. It dos not feel good.

But it is good.

The slaves in American to my tear filled shock blessed there persecutors 'deeply' even died for them. How do you die for somebody who is happily killing you and your children at the same time?

I do not know....

But I want to know what this kind of 'mind' is about. This would be the key to true humility which is at the root of true forgiveness.

Seems somehow the pain of cruelty and death had NO POWER over the African slave in America. It did not torcher his mind or consume his soul. It had no power over him at all it seems.

I do not have (or have but not using) that power they had and niether do you seeing the post you placed on this thread and we are free men in our day and age.

Free?

I hope you get a chance to read The Slave Narratives.

Peace.

Christ has Risen!

[PeterTheAleut]

Somehow, I think we may need to take some cultural differences into account in our analysis of and response to stashko's words.  Speaking Serbian as his native language, and English only as a second language, does the word "hourises" express the same meaning to stashko as it communicates to us?  Is the concept the same?

Yes, I know the idea of the "72 virgins" that "hourises" seems to entail is quite crass and insulting to our cultural sensibilities, and stashko would do well to be much more aware of this.  But maybe this level of innuendo isn't quite what stashko wanted to convey, so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to jump on him and say that he needs a warning for blatantly insulting Roman Catholics.  Can we so accurately attribute to him the level of intent necessary for such harsh judgment?

[stashko]

......

Dear Father Deacon....Bless...He the pope didn't end communisim in the east as the catholic church claim's...communisim eventuliy died on it's own russia couldn't mantain the iron curtain countries it was very expensive for them to keep them so they released them ,,russia it self was suffering severly financially..it's like catholic giving credit to that fatima/ Lourdes phony apparition that supposedly lberated the eastern block country's due to her imaculate heart....such nonsence....like that phony apparition wasn't aware that the orthodox church and faithful honored the Most Holy Mother greatly......
      Father Deacon ,,,since the catholic pope is the supreme head of the catholic Church and not Christ and the catholic's preach the pope more than christ....For them he is a supreme Shepherd  ,,By kissing the quran he actully did canonized it,, he either was insane or senile..what reward will he get for it but the musilm heaven and all the thing's that go with it....           
          Serbia ,bosnia, croatia,slovania,macadonia mountain negro..weren't part of the iron curtain countrys they seperated from russia in the 50 i believe..they had a form of communisim that didn't have sever restrictions a more relaxed version were people can travel anywhere they wanted.......with out being shot......when communisim still ruled in the Balkans we had a sister that was taken from our mother in the second war by croatian ustasa put in a orphanage with other serbian children they were going to set the orphanage on fire ,,a religious saved them scattered them among the croatian family's she survived raised by them ..when communisim ruled the balkan she was allowed to visit us here in the states for six months..then she went back to osjek croatia were she lived and died......
     Father Deacon it's not easy to forgive ....i know i eventually have to forgive...God's Peace........Christ Has Risen....

[ozgeorge]

I must also agree with Lubeltri that Ozgeorge is not consistent with his moderation and seems to have a bone to pick with you especially.

Juliana,
I think transparency is a good thing, so you should know that in fact the Moderators talk amongst themselves whenever an issue comes up about the best way to deal with the situation. Just because a moderator enacts the consensus decision of the Moderator Team does not mean that they alone are responsible for taking the decision. I know that it can appear this way on the "outside" but rest assured that this is not the case. I can understand how you might have made this mistake based on what you are able to see, but there is a Moderators Forum which you are not able to see.
So whenever you see a moderator working, just be aware that they are working as part of a team, and not an individual. This will help you to avoid jumping to the conclusion that their actions are a personal vendetta.
George

[SolEX01]

Dear Father Deacon....Bless...

With all due respect - a Deacon cannot give any blessing until he's ordained to the priesthood unless it is custom for Serbian Orthodox to ask their Deacons for a Blessing.  In that case, I apologize for my ignorance.    

[stashko]

stashko

One day you may get a chance to read The Slave Narratives.

The collection of prayers, songs and writtings of African slaves in America is a daugnting record of utter hopelessness and despair heaped onto a people by a people who claimed Christ as their savior for over 400 years.

I mention this because I think reading it will help you, me and others to learn 'true' forgiveness that Christ teaches. This forgiveness is not to be confused with satans' "forgive but don't forget" kind of "forgiveness" that we all currently enjoy. Forgiving and not forgetting is wickedness; pure and uncut. 'True' forgiveness is very painful to people like us. It dos not feel good.

But it is good.

The slaves in American to my tear filled shock blessed there persecutors 'deeply' even died for them. How do you die for somebody who is happily killing you and your children at the same time?

I do not know....

But I want to know what this kind of 'mind' is about. This would be the key to true humility which is at the root of true forgiveness.

Seems somehow the pain of cruelty and death had NO POWER over the African slave in America. It did not torcher his mind or consume his soul. It had no power over him at all it seems.

I do not have (or have but not using) that power they had and niether do you seeing the post you placed on this thread and we are free men in our day and age.

Free?

I hope you get a chance to read The Slave Narratives.

Peace.

Christ has Risen!

Dear Father Deacon Amdetsion  Bless i will look for that book...I really do realise that i have to forgive but not Forget....it's so sad that people do so much evil to each other ,,even some so called religious....God Help us all....
God's Peace .....to you...and ....Christ Has Risen.....

[SolEX01]

Somehow, I think we may need to take some cultural differences into account in our analysis of and response to stashko's words.  Speaking Serbian as his native language, and English only as a second language, does the word "hourises" express the same meaning to stashko as it communicates to us?  Is the concept the same?

Yes, I know the idea of the "72 virgins" that "hourises" seems to entail is quite crass and insulting to our cultural sensibilities, and stashko would do well to be much more aware of this.  But maybe this level of innuendo isn't quite what stashko wanted to convey, so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to jump on him and say that he needs a warning for blatantly insulting Roman Catholics.  Can we so accurately attribute to him the level of intent necessary for such harsh judgment?

Serbs are perceived to have two enemies - Catholics (Ustasha) and Muslims (former Ottoman Empire & today's Kosovo Albanians).  We know what happened in 1389 in Kosovo.   
Seeing the Pope of Rome kiss the Koran only fuels their fire that both enemies are one and the same regardless of religion and nationality.
I feel that stashko's words portrayed frustration rather than a deliberate attempt to insult Catholics.
I see stashko's words as a reminder of the temporality of the papacy and the betrayal of celibacy by those Catholic priests who engaged in pederasty.

[stashko]

With all due respect - a Deacon cannot give any blessing until he's ordained to the priesthood unless it is custom for Serbian Orthodox to ask their Deacons for a Blessing.  In that case, I apologize for my ignorance.    

But i believe they can say God Bless you...they are a ordained holy order in the church.....there not considered lay people .....God's Peace...Xpictoc Bockrece.......

[SolEX01]

But i believe they can say God Bless you...they are a ordained holy order in the church.....there not considered lay people .....God's Peace...Xpictoc Bockrece.......

A Deacon is considered the ultimate lay person, while they are ordained, their function is to assist Priests and other clergy.  A Deacon will not allow one to kiss his hand.
You and I can tell each other "God Bless You" - if a Deacon does so, he is technically acting no differently than we are.

[Amdetsion]

A Deacon is considered the ultimate lay person, while they are ordained, their function is to assist Priests and other clergy.  A Deacon will not allow one to kiss his hand.
You and I can tell each other "God Bless You" - if a Deacon does so, he is technically acting no differently than we are.

Good point.

Please note that though the above is right; in the Ethiopian Orthodox and the Coptic Orthodox Churches the rank of deacon has two levels (after 'Reader') Sub-Deacon and Archdeacon. They are both 'deacons' and are refered to as "Deacons". However; the archdeacon is not refered to as 'deacon' but is always called "archdeacon" in the event that he is apointed to work directly under an archbishop. This is done so that when an "archdeacon' is around people are aware from his use of the title that he is the right hand of the bishop and is recieved as such. This is a matter of protocal. All archdeacons whether called deacon or archdeacon all have the same rank.

These two ranks are not considerd "ultimate lay person" at all. Men with these ranks are clergyman. Archdeacons are likened more to a sub-priest so tom speak. The archdeacon wheres a crown during all services and administers the Holy blood of Christ during communion. Deacon is barely distinguisheable from priest except for the lack of a head cover after service the deacon is in a black robe with a large neck cross.

[Anastasios]

A Deacon is considered the ultimate lay person, while they are ordained, their function is to assist Priests and other clergy.  A Deacon will not allow one to kiss his hand.
You and I can tell each other "God Bless You" - if a Deacon does so, he is technically acting no differently than we are.

A deacon is ordained to the first degree of the priesthood, and often people will kiss his hand right after he has celebrated because like a priest, he has touched the Eucharist (and consumed the chalice). He is called Father.  His funeral is similar to a layman's, although he is buried with his censor.

[SolEX01]

Amdetsion & Deacon Anastasios - thanks for the explanations and I have a better understanding even though I saw the Deacon as "ultimate lay person" designation somewhere in the OC.net forum.  While people can kiss the Deacon's hand immediately after receiving the Eucharist, from my experience, a Deacon under the Moscow Patriarchate would not allow me to kiss his hand when I met him at a church festival.  I suppose I didn't know any better at the time.   

Other Orthodox jurisdictions (Antiochian and OCA come to mind) have sub-deacons as well.  I have not heard of Archdeacon in the GOA.

[Anastasios]

Amdetsion & Deacon Anastasios - thanks for the explanations and I have a better understanding even though I saw the Deacon as "ultimate lay person" designation somewhere in the OC.net forum.  While people can kiss the Deacon's hand immediately after receiving the Eucharist, from my experience, a Deacon under the Moscow Patriarchate would not allow me to kiss his hand when I met him at a church festival.  I suppose I didn't know any better at the time.   

Other Orthodox jurisdictions (Antiochian and OCA come to mind) have sub-deacons as well.  I have not heard of Archdeacon in the GOA.

Yes, you are right that it is not normative to kiss a deacon's hand.

[Pravoslavbob]

A deacon is ordained to the first degree of the priesthood...

Archdeacons are likened more to a sub-priest so tom speak.

I respectfully disagree.

Amdetsion & Deacon Anastasios - thanks for the explanations and I have a better understanding even though I saw the Deacon as "ultimate lay person" designation somewhere in the OC.net forum. 

I proposed this very analogy in this thread.    It is just one view, but it is a legitimate position to take, and I stand by it.

Perhaps we could discuss the nature of the diaconate in that thread instead of this one if we felt so inclined. 

[Frederic]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: At most you can say the act was imprudent. Anyone with a brain knows what John Paul II believed about the Catholic and Christian faith. Read Dominus Iesus. Ask what the Muslims think of that. They know what he believes, but they also know his goodwill, and he had that in spades. Sometimes his love and goodwill led him a bit too far (Assisi 1986 is another example). This was a man who personally lived through the most appallingly violent time in human history. He was a man who deeply desired peace. Sometimes, like I said, his gestures went a bit over the top. But it doesn't take away from what a great apostle of peace and understanding John Paul II was.

I agree it was a bad idea. But at the same time, not a huge deal. Kissing is a sign of respect and gratitude. John Paul II did it often. Recall his kissing the tarmac whenever he got off a plane. If I were kissing a Qur'an given to me as a gift, with that kiss I would be expressing gratitude for the gift and respecting the certain elements of truth found within it. It was and is obvious to everyone (including to the cleric who presented it) that John Paul was not personally endorsing Muhammad's supposed revelation as found in that book when he kissed it.

« May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan! »

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html

[JamesR]

...and South America, stopped human sacrifice in Mexico

Only to enslave us, rape us and use us as slaves at labour plantations and destroy nearly every element of our pre-Columbian history and culture...

Back on topic, is it really that big of a deal when we take into consideration the fact that our Ecumenical Patriarchate prays with heretics and that certain Orthodox Churches officially participate in the Ecumenical Movement which is built upon the heretical notion that there are more than one Churches with the intention of creating a new "universal Church" even though WE ARE the universal, only one true Church?

[Shanghaiski]

Facepalm.

[Cyrillic]

...and South America, stopped human sacrifice in Mexico

Only to enslave us, rape us and use us as slaves at labour plantations

You were very bad slaves, didn't work hard enough (is this where the lazy mexican stereotype comes from?). At least we Dutchmen made a lot of money in the transatlantic slave trade that followed, so consider this a belated thank you.

[biro]

Deciding whether JamesR's post or Cyrillic's post stinks worse is like deciding whether it's better to poke yourself in the right eye or the left. 

[yeshuaisiam]

Old thread...

He also got the mark of shiva by a hindu priestess.

Also participated in religious ceremonies with half naked tribal women next to him.

Gotta love ecumenism.

[JamesR]

Nothing wrong with venerating the book that is personally responsible for the martyrdom of millions of us throughout history

Personally, I'd RATHER the Pope receive the Hindu Shiva mark and venerate pagan and/or tribal artifacts opposed to the Qur'an, at least those things do not explicitly reject Christ and have not explicitly lead to the deaths of millions of us.

On an entirely different note, I'd rather be an Aztec neo-pagan anyday like my ancestors opposed to accepting colonialism and being a Roman Catholic.

[mike]

Gotta love ecumenism.

Where do you see ecumenism here?

[JamesR]

Gotta love ecumenism.

Where do you see ecumenism here?

Paying respect to a book that personally rejects Christ being the Son of God and has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Christians throughout history?

[Alpo]

Gotta love ecumenism.

Where do you see ecumenism here?

Paying respect to a book that personally rejects Christ being the Son of God and has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Christians throughout history?

World English Dictionary

ecumenism , ecumenicism or ecumenicalism  (ɪˈkjuːməˌnɪzəm, ˈɛkjʊm-, ˌiːkjʊˈmɛnɪˌsɪzəm, ˌɛk-)
 
— n
   the aim of unity among all Christian churches throughout the world

[JamesR]

ecumenism...the aim of unity among all Christian churches throughout the world

Some consider Islam to be a Christian heresy, in which case, ecumenism would apply here to the Pope's action, he is trying to unite Muslims to the Roman Catholic faith through showing respect to their Holy Book the Qur'an which is purely evil.

Ecumenism is built on heresy. Just from that definition alone, it assumes that there is more than one Christian Church throughout the world, but in the Nicean Creed and in standard Orthodox doctrine, we profess that there is only ONE Church. There is NO SUCH THING as "your Church and my Church" or "this Church and that Church" but there is only ONE Church and everything else is not a Church but a house of schismatics and heretics.

[JoeS2]

Honestly, a professing Christian kissing a book that denies the divinity of Christ?  Wow.  I say let heretics kiss what they want.  What do we have to do with the pope anyway?

A gentle bow and a hand shake would have been more appropriate.  But, the KISS means something more than a plain thank you.  I think if the pope had to do this over Im sure he would have done it differently.

[theistgal]

And since the incident in question happened at least 25 years ago and said Pope has died, not sure what anyone thinks can be done about it now.

And as I said on a Catholic board a long time ago - is it possible he just screwed up? I too think it was a stupid thing to do ... maybe even a sin. Well, I'm a sinner too and I can think of plenty worse things I've kissed in my life than a Koran.

[ialmisry]

...and South America, stopped human sacrifice in Mexico

Only to enslave us, rape us and use us as slaves at labour plantations and destroy nearly every element of our pre-Columbian history and culture...

Actually, no.  For a while Nahuatl was the official language of New Spain (at least for the Amerindians), and the language of the seminary for missionaries in Mexico.

but there was enslaving and raping.  And the human sacrifice did stop.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Let's keep on topic.

[theistgal]

Also, the topic title is a bit misleading. Only one Pope in history has ever been accused of "kissing the Koran".

[biro]

And since the incident in question happened at least 25 years ago and said Pope has died, not sure what anyone thinks can be done about it now.

And as I said on a Catholic board a long time ago - is it possible he just screwed up? I too think it was a stupid thing to do ... maybe even a sin. Well, I'm a sinner too and I can think of plenty worse things I've kissed in my life than a Koran.

There is also the fact that he probably had to be diplomatic, considering he was in public, and when you pick up one of those books, that is what you do with it. (If they give you one while you're visiting a mosque or something.)

[NicholasMyra]

Notorious ex-nun, self-described "freelance monotheist" and eminent and shameless Muslim apologist Karen Armstrong has trashed John Paul II as a fundamentalist.

That's what happens when a journalist in the 21st century attempts to embrace a legitimate discipline.

[theistgal]

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, and on Pope John Paul II, two big honkin' sinners.

[yeshuaisiam]

Gotta love ecumenism.

Where do you see ecumenism here?

Paying respect to a book that personally rejects Christ being the Son of God and has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Christians throughout history?

World English Dictionary

ecumenism , ecumenicism or ecumenicalism  (ɪˈkjuːməˌnɪzəm, ˈɛkjʊm-, ˌiːkjʊˈmɛnɪˌsɪzəm, ˌɛk-)
 
— n
   the aim of unity among all Christian churches throughout the world

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ecumenism

Definition 2.  It's what you see in several ecumenism events.  The Pope venerating the Koran, the pope getting Shiva Marks, EO holding services with many pagan "clergy" present.

The answer to the thread OP is NO, the Pope should NOT kiss the Koran.

[mike]

Definition 2.  It's what you see in several ecumenism events.  The Pope venerating the Koran, the pope getting Shiva Marks, EO holding services with many pagan "clergy" present.

As real as your definition of "original Christianity".

[yeshuaisiam]

Definition 2.  It's what you see in several ecumenism events.  The Pope venerating the Koran, the pope getting Shiva Marks, EO holding services with many pagan "clergy" present.

As real as your definition of "original Christianity".

Brother God Bless you.

If I get under you skin or cause you any distress or annoyance (or both), then I am sorry. 
Please forgive me.

Please understand, Ecumenism crushed my belief of somewhere between 26-32 years in the EO church. (Longer than many on this forum have been alive)  I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians...  Including the video I posted about the issue made by the Synod in Resistance.

[mike]

I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians...  Including the video I posted about the issue made by the Synod in Resistance.

That means you all need to buy some dictionaries ASAP.  I can call my cat Dog and my dog - Cat but that won't make any sense.

[yeshuaisiam]

I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians...  Including the video I posted about the issue made by the Synod in Resistance.

That means you all need to buy some dictionaries ASAP.  I can call my cat Dog and my dog - Cat but that won't make any sense.

Ecumenism - 1. A movement promoting unity among Christian churches or denominations. 2. A movement promoting worldwide unity among religions through greater cooperation and improved understanding.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ecumenism

Again Michal, seriously, I am not trying to bother you. I was just using the context of the worldwide unity...

[theistgal]

I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians... 

Although I doubt it will change your mind at all, there are other possible reasons why the late John Paul II may have kissed that Koran. For example, this priest (Father Joe)'s blog post (http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/debates/anti-catholicism/pope-john-paul-ii-kisses-the-koran/) theorizes it was meant as a sign of respect for the people who gave it to him, not for the book itself.

Isn't it basic Christian charity to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible?

Also, to reiterate my earlier question, what exactly can the LATE John Paul II do to rectify the situation now? And is it at all conceivable that God might have forgiven him for it, given that God is notoriously more forgiving than most humans? (Don't we all hope that for ourselves, anyway?)

[Nicene]

If they had any knowledge of the quran they would refuse. Why kiss a book that essentially damns every Christian?

[bergschlawiner]

In all my time in a Muslim environment I have never seen a Muslim kiss the Koran.

[JoeS2]

In all my time in a Muslim environment I have never seen a Muslim kiss the Koran.

I also bet you never ever see one kiss the Bible either.....

[yeshuaisiam]

I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians... 

Although I doubt it will change your mind at all, there are other possible reasons why the late John Paul II may have kissed that Koran. For example, this priest (Father Joe)'s blog post (http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/debates/anti-catholicism/pope-john-paul-ii-kisses-the-koran/) theorizes it was meant as a sign of respect for the people who gave it to him, not for the book itself.

Isn't it basic Christian charity to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible?

Also, to reiterate my earlier question, what exactly can the LATE John Paul II do to rectify the situation now? And is it at all conceivable that God might have forgiven him for it, given that God is notoriously more forgiving than most humans? (Don't we all hope that for ourselves, anyway?)

I could not accept veneration in that respect towards a heresy.  HOWEVER, I could accept if it was an accident (infallible? LOL) on his behalf.  Being in huge crowds and somebody walks up to him with something he thought was a "big bible" and kissed it.   

He really can't rectify the situation.  We can pray for him...

He was also anointed with the mark of Shiva

[age234]

Why should Orthodox discuss this? Because there are undoubtedly Orthodox leaders who secretly (or not) think the Pope's actions were the right course. Now is the time to discuss and pre-empt such attempts at blasphemy in our own Church.

« May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan! »

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html

Wow. To me this is more troubling than kissing the Koran. We want the Forerunner to make people Christians, not protect their false religion.

There is right and wrong diplomacy when it comes to adversaries.

The Pope, I'm sure, thought he was being diplomatic and generous to show that he was a good guy. But when St. Paul said he became all things to all men, this isn't what he had in mind. You don't call down blessings upon false religions, participate in their rites, and venerate their sacred objects for the sake of appearances.

The right way is to act like a Christian. Be good to those who persecute you. Be respectful. But for Peter's sake, don't ask the Forerunner to protect Islam. My goodness.

Not that it matters what I think about a departed Pope of the Catholic Church, but one time is a mistake. This is a bad habit at best, but I find it hard to extend even that much benefit when you consider how much time and planning goes into these kinds of meetings and events. You don't just accidentally get anointed by a Hindu who you are holding an audience with, or mistakenly ask the Forerunner's protection in a prepared speech.

This is what salt losing its saltiness looks like. More concerned about garnering favor than standing for the truth. I think people have more respect for those who stand for something than those who fall for everything.

[biro]

I view issues such as the Pope venerating the Koran as such, and fits the definition of Ecumenism to many Eastern Orthodox Christians... 

Although I doubt it will change your mind at all, there are other possible reasons why the late John Paul II may have kissed that Koran. For example, this priest (Father Joe)'s blog post (http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/debates/anti-catholicism/pope-john-paul-ii-kisses-the-koran/) theorizes it was meant as a sign of respect for the people who gave it to him, not for the book itself.

Isn't it basic Christian charity to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible?

Also, to reiterate my earlier question, what exactly can the LATE John Paul II do to rectify the situation now? And is it at all conceivable that God might have forgiven him for it, given that God is notoriously more forgiving than most humans? (Don't we all hope that for ourselves, anyway?)

Not to mention that most people on this board aren't Roman Catholics in the first place.

That never stopped them from throwing a good hissy fit, though.