Author Topic: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?  (Read 2617 times)

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Offline OrthodoxSitkan

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Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« on: March 14, 2008, 10:31:00 PM »
I was wondering are there any Tradititional Oriental Orthodox groups like the Old Caledarists in Byzantine Orthodoxy or the SSPX in the Latin Church--that would assert they are the True Church and Baptize Catholics and Byzantine Orthodox?  I have never heard of any.  Is this phenomenon absent in the Oriental Orthodox Churches?  Maybe the Oriental Churches are free of this.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2008, 10:41:50 PM »
The mainstream Copts baptize Catholics and have baptized Eastern Orthodox whose baptismal certificates cannot be produced (that I know by anecdotal evidence).

As far as the Eastern (or as you call it, Byzantine) Orthodox Church is concerned, it is not just traditionalist Orthodox who baptize Catholics. It is not so common, but it does occur.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 10:46:39 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline OrthodoxSitkan

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2008, 10:48:05 PM »
Ok, I had heard some of the Oriental Orthodox baptize Byzantine Orthodox, but wasn't sure.  So I suppose that OO's are the traditionalists of Orthodoxy.  That is interesting.  It would be interesting to know why Coptic Orthodox baptize Byzantines or Latins.  Do they have the same concept of Grace as Byzantine Orthodox?  If not what is it?

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 11:16:59 PM »
Ok, I had heard some of the Oriental Orthodox baptize Byzantine Orthodox, but wasn't sure.  So I suppose that OO's are the traditionalists of Orthodoxy.  That is interesting.  It would be interesting to know why Coptic Orthodox baptize Byzantines or Latins.  Do they have the same concept of Grace as Byzantine Orthodox?  If not what is it?

Armenians and Indians do not even chrismate Eastern Orthodox and will commune Catholics. It seems with the Copts thought that the concern is not grace per se but the fact that Latins do not have immersion baptism (for the most part).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 11:17:14 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 08:45:17 AM »
It seems with the Copts thought that the concern is not grace per se but the fact that Latins do not have immersion baptism (for the most part).

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I've always understood the primary concern to be that we simply do not accept the legitimacy of RC priesthood.
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Offline HaileAmanuel

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 12:37:21 PM »
My Brothers,

I'm sorry if I seem incompetent, but is the question asking 'if any of the Oriental Orthodox Churches catechize and baptize converts?'

The Ethiopian/Eritrean Orthodox Tewahido Church [supposedly] catechize and baptize anyone who desires initiation to our, the EOTC.  I say 'supposedly' catechize, because I know situations in which a bishop accepted a 'quick' confession of belief [unfortunately] of candidates and baptized them, along with the administering of Chrismation and Holy Communion, of course.

I think that I can speak on behalf of the Coptic Church also, because a friend of mine was previously Eastern Orthodox, before being catechized and baptized into the Coptic Orthodox Church at the hand of one Its Bishops.  Also, most of the EOTC traditions come from the Church of Alexandria (the Coptic Orthodox Church).

Thanks and I'm sorry if I caused any confusion.

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Offline Marc Hanna

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 02:20:26 PM »
Typically, the Copts and Armenians don't rebaptize if the converts baptism is legitimate.  Usually, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox baptisms are considered genuine.  There is a case for re-chrismation (reconfirmation) as this was often the case in the early church when an apostate or a heretic rejoined the church; but we don't consider RC's and EO's heretics we just have anathemas against them.

Offline PSFam

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 01:58:00 PM »
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I've always understood the primary concern to be that we simply do not accept the legitimacy of RC priesthood.

We accept the Catholic Church as a valid Apostolic church and accept their baptism as valid.  It is that, as Anastasios stated, we do not accept the baptism by sprinkling. If they were baptised by immersion (as some Eastern rite Catholics do) then there is no need to re-baptise.
Though usually whether re-baptised or not with rare exception all converts are re-chrismated
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Offline PSFam

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 02:02:37 PM »
Though in regards to traditionalist movements within the OO. There as yet has not arisen a modernist movement, at least in the Coptic church, that such a traditionalist group would spring up in response.

Though I fear in this age of relativism and moral equivalence that such a thing may occur.
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Offline buzuxi

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 03:09:45 PM »
The Copts inline with canon 7 of Constantinople recognize proper baptismal form which is triple immersion in each name of the Trinity thus RC are rebaptized. I dont see any reason why there would be a traditionalist group within the Coptic Church. I can only see such a group arise out of the armenians since they celebrate Easter with the west and not with their fellow OO's.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 03:12:22 PM by buzuxi »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Are there any Traditionalist Oriental Orthodox Groups?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 08:21:29 PM »
I can only see such a group arise out of the armenians since they celebrate Easter with the west and not with their fellow OO's.

Calendars aren't an issue with the Armenians, and as far as I know, other OO's.  In fact, the Armenians in Jerusalem are still on the old calendar and do Easter at the old time and no one thinks twice about the fact that we are doing everything at different times. 

I also think the Indians here in the U.S. do Easter with the West.

I just don't think the difference in calendars is something that would get the OO's upset.  We have a history of diversity in practice, so differences like that are tolerated.  I think that is what has saved us from having some of the schisms that have plagued the EO's, like the calendar schism and the Old Believer schism over how to make the sign of the cross.  EO's are more used to uniformity, so stuff like a different calendar or a different way of crossing oneself would cause a problem.  However, since diversity of practice is the norm for OO's, we don't go into schism over that sort of thing.  That's not to say we don't have schisms.  Goodness knows, we have our schisms in the OO community.  However, it is not over that sort of thing.