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Author Topic: Is the Roman Church Sincere about Ecumenism?  (Read 8943 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2008, 12:32:38 AM »

You mean, like the"La Vista Report"?



God Bless you Brother thanks for this above.......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2008, 12:36:43 AM »

 Roll Eyes
Who needs Rome to divide the Orthodox when we do such a good job of it ourselves?
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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2008, 12:48:49 AM »



Now i see there are many posters that stopped posting here, on this forum  it has a lot of old posts that go back years,,let me ask the question were are these people were did they go ,,, maybe replies by the moderators like this drove them off.....when i first joined this forum i compilmented the interaction  be us and the moderators maybe i spoke to soon ....ask father ambrose if im parinoid or not....history it self confesses romes treachery against the orthodox east......so if that makes me parinoid so be it .....mom and dad were in jesenovac bosnia death camp due to the croatian/Franciscan/ustasha..... stasko/stanislav
stashko,

I consider myself generally aware of the nature of relations between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, though I certainly am ignorant of some details of how the Roman church has treated specific peoples (such as the genocides of the 1940's).  As such, I try to extend to Rome the benefit of the doubt and avoid giving credence to ideas of "hidden Vatican agendas" in their ecumenical relations with the Orthodox Church.  I don't deny, though, the reality of your experience of the Ustasha, backed as it was by the hierarchy of the Roman church in Croatia.  I evidently need to inform myself a bit more regarding this chapter in your family's history so I can offer you more sensitivity than I did by insinuating that you may be paranoid.  Please forgive me for my rather tactless choice of words.

- Peter
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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2008, 12:57:18 AM »

Roll Eyes
Who needs Rome to divide the Orthodox when we do such a good job of it ourselves?
Brother this above i don't  understand....i allway thought we are united ,,the orthodox in the holy mysteries and not  by one supreme bishop.....??
Brother a question is the east and west easter on the same day this year...i don't have a orthodox calendar to look it up...i looked at the forum calendar all it lists is birthdays.......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2008, 01:01:39 AM »

i allway thought we are united ,,the orthodox in the holy mysteries and not  by one supreme bishop.....??
And what's the point of being united in the Mysteries when we publicly attack each other on the Internet for the world to see?
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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2008, 01:21:47 AM »

And what's the point of being united in the Mysteries when we publicly attack each other on the Internet for the world to see?

Maybe there is no point...you will know them by their fruits.
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« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2008, 01:28:05 AM »

Maybe there is no point...you will know them by their fruits.
Yep.
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« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2008, 01:39:16 AM »

Which is why I used the nominative case of the first-person plural pronoun.  Wink
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« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2008, 02:03:13 AM »

Which is why I used the nominative case of the first-person plural pronoun.  Wink

And I used the third person...because I don't even try to pretend anymore Wink
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« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2008, 02:11:59 AM »

And I used the third person...because I don't even try to pretend anymore Wink
You don't have to pretend. I've seen your fruits GiC, and they are good (despite your claims to the contrary).
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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2008, 03:30:32 AM »

Nothing so beautiful as an organ recital of Bach's canatas and fueges. Thanks be to God for talented and artistically/musically inspired people!

Well true, I meant in an Orthodox Church though, destroying the Byzantine Chant.
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« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »

The short answer: according to Rome's own lights yes! Although some Roman Catholic websites (including biased news ones) egg on division between Orthodox leaders I don't think 'divide and conquer' is what Rome is trying to do (unlike in the 1500s with the start of the Greek Catholic churches).

Well said.

Rome wants corporate reunion with all the Orthodox. It sincerely believes that Orthodoxy with the modern Vatican glued on top would still be Orthodoxy. Essentially Greek Catholicism writ large only not self-latinised.

In part I agree with you, in part not. Yes, there are definitely some  Catholics who see reconciliation with the Orthodox in terms of "Greek Catholicism writ large only not self-latinised". But there are also a few of us who believe that uniatism was a mistake with or without latinization.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2008, 11:29:19 PM »

Organs weren't part of orthodoxy when i was growing up neither were pews,or new calendar.,,we kept the holy orthodox church the way we recieved it from our mother church in constantinople.....now our mother church has changed,,but we the children remain as it was given to us almost iv seen pews in some of our churches never liked them ,,,but thank God we don't have organ's or the new calendar,,,,,,hello new mom are you out there your children are calling you to bring us back to the ancient orthodox way....stasko/stanislav
I was at a Greek Orthodox Liturgy recently, and there was a musician who would introduce the singing with some chords from a hand held organ. I asked the priest about it, and he said that this was introduced so that people would sing on the correct note.
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« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2008, 11:32:19 PM »


I read it Brother....they really  slamed into our saintly Fr. Ambrose on that thread.......God forgive them...stasko/stanislav


I don't believe Fr Ambrose would be particularly comfortable with being described as saintly  Wink

John
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« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2008, 11:42:36 PM »

....history it self confesses romes treachery against the orthodox east......so if that makes me parinoid so be it .....mom and dad were in jesenovac bosnia death camp due to the croatian/Franciscan/ustasha..... stasko/stanislav
I don't know what the answer is for the terrible animosities that have developed between the different groups in the Balkans.
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« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2008, 06:19:38 AM »

I don't believe Fr Ambrose would be particularly comfortable with being described as saintly  Wink

John


Brother...any one like Father that defends orthodoxy like he does and others and you also are living saints in my book...God Bless you Brate.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2008, 06:46:13 AM »

I don't know what the answer is for the terrible animosities that have developed between the different groups in the Balkans.


Its mostly religious hates croatian can't understand why were not under the pope,,,we can't understand why would anyboby want to be under a pope... Christ never left his church he is the supreme leader,,,he also gave us the holy spirit to teach lead and guide the church,,,  and the muslim are a different story the took sides with the croatians to benifit there position but they killed jews serbs jypsies and croatians and others....serbs were always a majority be it in bosnia,, kosovo,, serbia,, ...mountian negro ,,,vojvodina,,so the muslim wanted to whittle down the serbs...bosnian muslim fought at times against the croatian and the croatians fought them and us...some one that knows the situation there could answer better than i the reasons for the animosity mostly i think it was  for the land  ....how did a serb tell the difference between a croatian and a bosnian muslim during the war since we all look like the same people ...answer there told to drop there pants muslims are circumcise, croatian generally are not,,also the muslim did the same to identifiy a serb or a croatian from a muslim.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2008, 05:24:19 PM »

Brother,,,
For the latins maybe its fine.....  but not for us orthodox we like our ancient traditional way better.......and  not in the holy orthodox divine  liturgy.....stasko/stanislav

I totally agree.  Having experienced both ways (I was formerly Southern Baptist), I definitely prefer the Orthodox music with just the human voice.  I much prefer it to accompaniment by piano/organ/guitar (or whole praise band, which is my absolute pet peeve).  For one thing, I really like listening to the words of the hymn. 
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« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2008, 06:36:03 PM »

stashko,

I consider myself generally aware of the nature of relations between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, though I certainly am ignorant of some details of how the Roman church has treated specific peoples (such as the genocides of the 1940's).  As such, I try to extend to Rome the benefit of the doubt and avoid giving credence to ideas of "hidden Vatican agendas" in their ecumenical relations with the Orthodox Church. 
...
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Peter, that´s different historic experience.

Nobody say all Roman Catholics persecute others everywhere, all the times.

But errors of St. Augustine and his Platonic view of permissibility of the use of force against heretics, adopted by Rome and lately confirmed by Thomas Aquinas, as well as emphasize on will by Bonaventura and Franciscans generally are theological foundation of it.

Methods of Jesuits and their creative approach to speaking the truth make the foundation they simply remain silent on it, since the goal justifies the means, according to them. While the goal is the earthy kingdom and not Heavenly Kingdom.

The influence of Messianic approach towards earthy kingdom from Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Frank should neither be disregarded.

But I do wish you never understand the experience my bro Stanislav is speaking about.
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« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2008, 07:40:16 PM »

Im against any type of unity with the catholic roman church ...

As long as RCC wants dialog with us, we simply cannot refuse it and remain Christians.

What we cannot accept are joint prayers and the belief that there is more than one Church.

Yet, agenda of negotiations proposed by RCC and accepted by the representatives of Orthodox lead by Mrt. Zlizloulas, that fail to address the cricital issues of differences in Faith and is focused of lousy rephrase of Ecumenical Councils about primacy and taxis certainly leads to unrest among Orthodox.

Mrt. Zlizloulas should not lead any theological "commission" of Orthodox anymore.
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« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2008, 08:10:20 PM »

As long as RCC wants dialog with us, we simply cannot refuse it and remain Christians.

What we cannot accept are joint prayers and the belief that there is more than one Church.

Yet, agenda of negotiations proposed by RCC and accepted by the representatives of Orthodox lead by Mrt. Zlizloulas, that fail to address the cricital issues of differences in Faith and is focused of lousy rephrase of Ecumenical Councils about primacy and taxis certainly leads to unrest among Orthodox.

Mrt. Zlizloulas should not lead any theological "commission" of Orthodox anymore.



Forgive me brother i agree as the Lord says we have to be a family all christians togeather united .....it just so hard to trust anymore the western church.....but i do forgive.....How can all the other Patriarchs prevent this greek metropolitan from distorting everything ,,,why don't they speak up and support the russian patriarch before this goes to far.....in what the ecumenical patriarch is doing and allowing this metropolitan .........stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2008, 08:25:42 PM »


Forgive me brother ...

May God forgive you, bro, and may forgive me for I cannot see what is there that should be forgiven to you - I haven't noticed it.


How can all the other Patriarchs prevent this greek metropolitan from distorting everything ,,,why don't they speak up and support the russian patriarch before this goes to far.....in what the ecumenical patriarch is doing and allowing this metropolitan .........stasko/stanislav

It seems most of them think the best method is to ignore him. The approach has been taken by Russians, too.

I don't know if Ecumenical Patriarch can do anything. He is captive.
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« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2008, 08:34:32 PM »

I totally agree.  Having experienced both ways (I was formerly Southern Baptist), I definitely prefer the Orthodox music with just the human voice.  I much prefer it to accompaniment by piano/organ/guitar (or whole praise band, which is my absolute pet peeve).  For one thing, I really like listening to the words of the hymn. 


I agree the hymn's are beautiful not drowned out by a organ ....the hymn's are theology in song in what we as orthodox believe.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2008, 08:49:05 PM »


Its mostly religious hates croatian can't understand why were not under the pope,,,we can't understand why would anyboby want to be under a pope... Christ never left his church he is the supreme leader,,,he also gave us the holy spirit to teach lead and guide the church,,,  and the muslim are a different story the took sides with the croatians to benifit there position but they killed jews serbs jypsies and croatians and others....serbs were always a majority be it in bosnia,, kosovo,, serbia,, ...mountian negro ,,,vojvodina,,so the muslim wanted to whittle down the serbs...bosnian muslim fought at times against the croatian and the croatians fought them and us...some one that knows the situation there could answer better than i the reasons for the animosity mostly i think it was  for the land  ...
But how to promote reconciliation appears to remain elusive.
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« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2008, 10:27:05 AM »

Peter, that´s different historic experience.

Nobody say all Roman Catholics persecute others everywhere, all the times.

But errors of St. Augustine and his Platonic view of permissibility of the use of force against heretics, adopted by Rome and lately confirmed by Thomas Aquinas, as well as emphasize on will by Bonaventura and Franciscans generally are theological foundation of it.

Surely you don't think the Byzantines held to a concept of "religious freedom," do you? They were hardly religious pluralists, just as "medieval" as the Westerners.
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« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2008, 12:23:46 PM »

Surely you don't think the Byzantines held to a concept of "religious freedom," do you? They were hardly religious pluralists, just as "medieval" as the Westerners.

Surely you don't think I'd buy such a false equalizer between the Eastern Rome and the Western One?

There is clear line of distinction between them proved not only by the differences in theology I posted above and you failed to refer to, than in history, too.
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« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2008, 03:38:01 AM »

There are many sincere people in the Roman communion who wish to see reconciliation with Orthodoxy.  However, in the end, I believe that, tragically, the Roman curia is not sincere and wishes to absorb Orthodoxy.  I am quoting a post I made in response to a post by lubeltri on The Roman Catholic View of Mortal Sin thread and posts I have made on other threads to support this argument.

This is a big hobby-horse of your's, I can see.  It's perfectly natural for the Orthodox to define themselves in opposition to the RCC, since non-Orthodox seem to find them to be so similar, and since many RC ecumenical types often poo-poo the differences between the two Churches. 

The RCC is a much bigger "noise" in the world today than the Orthodox Church.  I don't think you realise how sensitive the Orthodox are about this, and how nervous the RCC makes them feel.  Or to put it another way; you are aware of how the Orthodox feel, but seeing the RCC as being essentially a benevolent organisation, or in fact as the very vehicle of salvation, you are aghast at why so many Orthodox see the need to distinguish themselves from the RCC.   Some of the Orthodox concern is due to unreasonable paranoia, but some is clearly not.  A couple of years ago, I mentioned to you that RC schools in the Middle East encourage Orthodox to join them and receive a free education.  All they have to do in return is join the Melkite Church.  How is this to be understood by the Orthodox? 

I personally really love the present Pope.  I really respect how he "tells is like it is", but does so in a spirit of love.  I trust in his sincerity.  However, I am really not sure that the Roman curia wants anything other than to absorb Orthodoxy, not come to a consensus with Her about ecclesial matters.  It's unfortunately only far too human to want to preserve what prestige, power, and influence one already has, and not give it up.  I'm not saying that this is true only in the RCC; Orthodoxy has its problems with this kind of attitude today too.  Suffice it to say, however, that while I may love and admire individual RC people or prelates, that I do not trust the motives of the RCC as a whole. 


... the Vatican bureaucracy is so vast, that often the "right hand does not know what the left hand is doing."...


.... I once heard an Eastern Catholic priest tell a story about an audience some Catholics had with the Pope (Paul VI if memory serves).  During the audience, one of the faithful asked the Pope: "Holy Father, how many people work in the Vatican?"  The Pope  considered the question thoughtfully for a few moments, and then responded:  "Oh, I would say about half."  In other words, fifty percent of the people working in the Vatican were trying to implement the policies and practices of the Roman see, while the other half were either tying them up in bureaucratic knots, ignoring them, or actively opposing them.

The continuing negative experience of the Eastern Catholics with the Roman Church should put the Orthodox on the alert.  Here is but one example: the field of canon law.  They have been struggling for decades to have eastern concepts recognized in their canon law, but continue to have to make decisions based on Roman concepts, as I see it seemingly because Roman canon lawyers simply can't be bothered to go online and order a few books on Orthodox views of canon law and ecclesiology!  Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to root around for themselves and find some info.  Perhaps you could start with the work of the well-respected Eastern Catholic canon lawyer Fr Jobe Abbass (sp?)

It seems that well-intentioned Catholics  sometimes seem to have great difficulty grasping Eastern concepts.  But when they work at it, they can come up with remarkably charitible and gracious ways of relating to the Orthodox.  One should remember that a considerable amount of positive change that emanated from Vatican II(and all but the most rigid Orthodox, IMHO, would have to acknowledge that at leastsome  positive things came from Vatican II) was inspired by the Melkite Church.  A document like the one signed at Balamand, however, is a mixed creature.  Clearly, there are elements in Balamand that are totally incompatible with Orthodox ecclesiology, but on the other hand, some of its declarations show remarkable sensitivity and deference to Orthodox values and concepts regarding the nature of the Church.

Orthodox nervousness regarding the Catholic Church cannot all be dismissed simply as Orthodox paranoia, though there is an unfortunate element of that present.  There are prominent Catholics out there, who, IMHO, are rightly viewed by the Orthodox as having a kind of benevolent yet arrogant superiority complex regarding the Eastern Church based on genuine ignorance about the differences between the West and Orthodoxy.  "The Orthodox are exactly the same as us, except that they are completely disorganised and don't have the benefit of communion with the Roman see, poor souls.  Oh yes, and they have such a beautiful and rich liturigical tradition."
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St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2008, 03:58:40 AM »

The RCC is so vast and entwined with so many bureaucratic structures, that often "the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing".  Well-meaning people are thwarted (who knows how much) by those who simply want to see as much ecclesial prestige as possible to remain concentrated where it is today, and well-meaning people who want to accomodate the Orthodox are held at bay by those who would like to absorb the Orthodox Church into the Catholic fold, in a situation not unlike that under which Eastern Catholicism exists today.  Pope Benedict may well desire in his heart of hearts to see a return to the understanding of the papacy as it was in the Patristic era, I don't know, but there is no way that he would be able to pull this off with entrenched Vatican power interests looking on.  When all is said and done, this is, unfortunately, the sober reality of the situation.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 04:21:34 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2008, 10:25:14 AM »

Pravoslavbob has it right. I'd say that the pope is too far removed from much of what goes on. Even interpretations of encyclicals can wind up subverting the original intent. JP IIs writings would lead one to believe that the eastern catholic churches should be returning to their traditions, but they have been unable to overcome  politics in the process. So, some things get restored, and other things get added that are not traditional, such as routinely holding Saturday evening vesperal liturgies, a la Saturday evening RC masses, that just happen to make Sunday attendance unnecessary. Not exactly a return to eastern tradition IMHO.

Worse for me is the lack of closer relationships between congregations and their clergy because of the size of RC parishes. There is a standard nowadays in American RC dioceses of about 7000 parishioners per priest- hardly a ratio that makes for a relationship with a spiritual father. The RC church appears too willing to change things to meet current social trends if it is expedient to do so, as long as it doesn't upset the established order itself. It's the internal spiritual warfare that should matter most. I don't see how Orthodoxy could reconcile with them as a result.
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