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Author Topic: Is the Roman Church Sincere about Ecumenism?  (Read 9367 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 12, 2008, 11:42:24 AM »

This thread has been split from the
EP & Met Zizioulas Slam the Russian Orthodox Church as They Meet In Rome topic.
 





Even if the Pope is a man of the utmost integrity he must have felt a small frisson of delight to see the Moscow-Constantinople problem get ratcheted up several more notches.

 How the Catholics must despise these two men, even as they will use them and shower praises on them.


I find this quite offensive Fr. Ambrose. Catholics have no desire to see disccord and splintering in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 11:47:51 AM »

I find this quite offensive Fr. Ambrose. Catholics have no desire to see disccord and splintering in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

If anything, we would like unity! It would make it a lot easier in ecumenical discussions and agreements.
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 11:56:54 AM »

Since they are in Rome, didn't they notice the scramble to undo the chaos of the reshaping of tradition a la Vatican II, out of which Rome is only now emerging?

More accurately, the "spirit of Vatican II." I believe the Council will bring forth great fruit during this century, once it is properly and more fully (and faithfully) implemented. It will help equip the Catholic Church to face the unprecedented challenges to Christianity in the post-modern world. We are already on the front lines in this struggle.
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 04:23:54 PM »

Im against any type of unity with the catholic roman church .....the ecumenical patriarch is trying to rush this unity he seems to be overlooking alot what rome has done to the east also our different theologies. ...why are we orthodox sending  our future religious to latin education centers ,,,we have our own education centers...it seems to me that our religious the ecumenical patriarch and metropalitan zizolous have been infected by rome ,,they should be sent their to live and have all the unity they want...with out us....i truly hope the the greek orthodox church in the u.s.a.  seperates it 's self from constantinople and becomes self governing....im all for the russian orthodox patriarchate taking the helm ...to lead and guide us....

      From constantinople our mother church we got our orthodoxy...if our mother fails to defend our ancient faith by kissing up to the latins and by interducing thing like  organs ,,pews,,,new calender..and only God knows whats waiting to be interduced in the future...we have to find a new mom...russia could be  or the other ancient patriarchates mybe the one in antioch any one would be better than the one we have now......i rather see a split between us than allow this unity to happen......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 04:28:04 PM »

if our mother fails to defend our ancient faith by kissing up to the latins and by interducing thing like  organs ,,pews,,,new calender..and only God knows whats waiting to be interduced in the future
Oh my! Are you serious? You think that organs and pews are erros? WOW!!!
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 04:29:29 PM »

Oh my! Are you serious? You think that organs and pews are erros? WOW!!!

Great, here comes the Anathema Against Pews....
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 04:46:37 PM »

I find this quite offensive Fr. Ambrose. Catholics have no desire to see disccord and splintering in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
Dear Papist,

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of Sourozh (one of the great notable men of the Russin Church of our lifetime) wrote something totally honest and also quite extraordinary for a person who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics. 

When he was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow because of ill health he
delivered a written report to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in 'extinguishing' Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:

Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 04:55:36 PM »

Oh my! Are you serious? You think that organs and pews are erros? WOW!!!

Organs are horrible.
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2008, 05:05:29 PM »

Dear Papist,

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of Sourozh (one of the great notable men of the Russin Church of our lifetime) wrote something totally honest and also quite extraordinary for a person who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics. 

When he was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow because of ill health he
delivered a written report to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in 'extinguishing' Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:

Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.




Father Bless ....I agree with this russian metropolitan in what he said..rome is out to destroy us ...i read a article a while back about this subject now if only i can find it .......i wonder the education center in rome that the ecumenical patriarch and the metropolitan zizolus attended was set up for this purpose to destroy from the inside out ...just wondering about it....stasko/stanislav..................if the jesuits could masquerade as orthodox priest to decieve in the past trying to fragment splinter the orthodox church ,,,anything is possable............

Edited only in order to fix quote.
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2008, 06:03:04 PM »

Dear Papist,

In 1997, Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of Sourozh (one of the great notable men of the Russin Church of our lifetime) wrote something totally honest and also quite extraordinary for a person who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics. 

When he was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow because of ill health he
delivered a written report to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in 'extinguishing' Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

The whole thing is in "Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:

Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.


And yet, he is so very wrong. I have seen you posting on line for several years now and it has always appeared that you take every opportunity you can to take jabs at the Catholic Church, whether your position is unfounded or not. Its interteresting becasue people who do this are usually those who are not as convinced of their own postion as they would lead others to believe. Are you doubting Eastern Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2008, 06:04:06 PM »

Organs are horrible.
Really? I was just at a discernment weekend for the Dominican Order and the organ music that accompanied our prayers was simply sublime.
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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2008, 06:39:24 PM »

And yet, he is so very wrong. I have seen you posting on line for several years now and it has always appeared that you take every opportunity you can to take jabs at the Catholic Church, whether your position is unfounded or not.
*
The history of interaction between the Orthodox Church and Roman Catholicism gives every reason to be very cautious and suspicious when dealing with the Roman Catholics. We must not be naive and that is why it is beneficial to remember such trenchant statements as Metropolitan Anthony's from time to time.

Quote
ts interteresting becasue people who do this are usually those who are not as convinced of their own postion as they would lead others to believe. Are you doubting Eastern Orthodoxy?
*
Have you seen any evidence that I am not convinced of the Orthodox position?
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2008, 06:40:47 PM »

Organs weren't part of orthodoxy when i was growing up neither were pews,or new calendar.,,we kept the holy orthodox church the way we recieved it from our mother church in constantinople.....now our mother church has changed,,but we the children remain as it was given to us almost iv seen pews in some of our churches never liked them ,,,but thank God we don't have organ's or the new calendar,,,,,,hello new mom are you out there your children are calling you to bring us back to the ancient orthodox way....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2008, 06:44:18 PM »

Organs are horrible.

Nothing so beautiful as an organ recital of Bach's canatas and fueges. Thanks be to God for talented and artistically/musically inspired people!
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2008, 09:01:27 PM »

Organs weren't part of orthodoxy when i was growing up neither were pews,or new calendar.,,we kept the holy orthodox church the way we recieved it from our mother church in constantinople.....now our mother church has changed,,but we the children remain as it was given to us almost iv seen pews in some of our churches never liked them ,,,but thank God we don't have organ's or the new calendar,,,,,,hello new mom are you out there you children are calling you to bring us back to the ancient orthodox way....stasko/stanislav

If we had more psaltis we wouldn't need organs. Instead of complaining about organs become a psalty. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2008, 09:36:37 PM »

Nothing so beautiful as an organ recital of Bach's canatas and fueges. Thanks be to God for talented and artistically/musically inspired people!
Brother,,,
For the latins maybe its fine.....  but not for us orthodox we like our ancient traditional way better.......and  not in the holy orthodox divine  liturgy.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2008, 10:07:53 PM »


Have you seen any evidence that I am not convinced of the Orthodox position?
Just in the manner you attack the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Its as if you have to attack her to convince yourself of your religion. Its just old fashioned psychology.
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2008, 10:21:36 PM »

Just in the manner you attack the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Its as if you have to attack her to convince yourself of your religion. Its just old fashioned psychology.
*
Right!  So is this the reason you had to attack us by creating what were originally called Uniate Churches but are now called "Orthodox in communion with Rome"?
Quote
find this quite offensive Fr. Ambrose. Catholics have no desire to see disccord and splintering in the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
*
Never heard of uniatism?  A nasty, thoroughly well-organised and ongoing attempt to subvert the unity of the Orthodox Churches.

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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2008, 10:31:15 PM »

If we had more psaltis we wouldn't need organs. Instead of complaining about organs become a psalty. Wink


It's no excuse to have organs ,,,if i had a voice i would sing.....nothing like the natural human voices singing praises to the co substantial and undivided Trinity our great Lord and God ,,,who gave us the voices to praise him.......please don't mention that in the old testament  the jews used instuments to praise the lord.....i know that but we arn't jews......
Brother,,,
     Ive heard Good Cantors and bad ones ,,also good and bad choirs  ..i prefer them anyday than a organ...God truly blesses his children that do the best in singing with a good or bad voice ,,because they gave to God all that they had ....also there voices improve for the better the longer one sings, thats God's blessing to them ....stasko/stanislav
....
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2008, 10:53:11 PM »

That religious school in Rome that trains eastern clergy,, for got the name what ever it's called.....that place is trying to destroy  orthodoxy from the inside out..,,just look at the ecumenical patriarch and metropolitan zizolous what it done to them......we better wake up and stop sending our future religious there for education......rome  is not our friend it's to power hungry and it won't give it up ....this german pope i don't trust at all ........he will say few small things to pacifie us but he won't give up power,, germans arn't known to give up power that easy .....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2008, 11:21:04 PM »

Just in the manner you attack the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Its as if you have to attack her to convince yourself of your religion. Its just old fashioned psychology.


Odd, I've never seen Fr. Ambrose do any such thing.  You on the other hand are noted for your attacks on the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Go figure.  Roll Eyes  
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2008, 12:06:10 AM »

Organs are horrible.

I certainly agree...but am not quite willing to elevate my personal opinions about aesthetics to the level of dogma.
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2008, 02:18:21 AM »

Really? I was just at a discernment weekend for the Dominican Order and the organ music that accompanied our prayers was simply sublime.

Wow, with which province? I was just at one a month ago in the Eastern Province!
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2008, 02:46:04 AM »

Brother,,,
For the latins maybe its fine.....  but not for us orthodox we like our ancient traditional way better.......and  not in the holy orthodox divine  liturgy.....stasko/stanislav

Firstly, I'm not a brother!  Grin

Secondly, I wasn't suggesting that Bach should be played during the liturgy.

Thirdly, I'm of the opinion that beautiful music is to be enjoyed whenever and wherever we find it. I'm quite sure that God-given talents aren't regional, nor dependant on one's personal theology.  Tongue
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2008, 03:30:08 AM »

Firstly, I'm not a brother!  Grin

Secondly, I wasn't suggesting that Bach should be played during the liturgy.

Thirdly, I'm of the opinion that beautiful music is to be enjoyed whenever and wherever we find it. I'm quite sure that God-given talents aren't regional, nor dependant on one's personal theology.  Tongue


sorry about that......i agree out of the church its fine who ever likes it the organ music will seek it out....i ve been here in chicago at lasalle and oak st to greek church that has a organ hated it .....they  had it so loud it gave a me headache..i left ...never went back to holy liturgy there....though i do support there summer festival they do know how to celibrate plus i like the greek music non liturgical that is....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2008, 03:45:36 AM »

For me, nothing beats a Solemn High Mass with schola, polyphonic choir and organ!
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2008, 04:31:29 AM »

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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2008, 04:35:39 AM »

^^LOL
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2008, 05:14:47 AM »

Great, here comes the Anathema Against Pews....

From the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (unauthorized version Wink)

To those who impiously teach that the ordered seating of Christians in hardened wooden boxes during divine services is pleasing and acceptable to God.

AnathemaGrin


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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2008, 05:54:22 AM »


From the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (unauthorized version Wink)

To those who impiously teach that the ordered seating of Christians in hardened wooden boxes during divine services is pleasing and acceptable to God.

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And what if the seating is soft and comfortable? Is that pleasing and acceptable to God?  Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2008, 09:56:52 AM »

The short answer: according to Rome's own lights yes! Although some Roman Catholic websites (including biased news ones) egg on division between Orthodox leaders I don't think 'divide and conquer' is what Rome is trying to do (unlike in the 1500s with the start of the Greek Catholic churches). Rome wants corporate reunion with all the Orthodox. It sincerely believes that Orthodoxy with the modern Vatican glued on top would still be Orthodoxy. Essentially Greek Catholicism writ large only not self-latinised.

You can love much in Western Catholicism including the traditional music, acknowledging the massive amount it and the Eastern Orthodox have in common (including the big difference with Protestants, belief in an infallible church), but see the Orthodox point (without falling into 'graceless heretics' rhetoric) that because the two sides differ on how exactly the infallible church works, a union now would mean a unia: one side ceasing to be what it is now.
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2008, 01:17:07 PM »

i don't think so......as Father ponted out by the russian metropolitan the catholic church is out to destroy orthodoxy...exsample bosnia world war 11  Franciscans/ustasha also somthing in the news link,,,,,,catholic clergy and nuns at work.......stasko/stanislav......................Rwandan priest gets life for 1,500 dead 2 hours, 12 minutes ago
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080313/ap_on_re_af/rwanda_genocide

ARUSHA, Tanzania - A U.N. tribunal has extended the sentence of a priest to life in prison after upholding his war crimes conviction for ordering militiamen to burn and bulldoze a church with 1,500 people inside during the 1994 Rwandan genocide.

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The International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda's ruling came after Rwandan Roman Catholic priest Athanase Serombawar appealed his 2006 conviction, a tribunal statement posted on its Web site late Wednesday said. He was originally sentenced to 15 years in prison.

The tribunal is trying the alleged masterminds of the 100-day Rwandan genocide in which more than 500,000 minority Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed by Hutu extremists.

The tribunal said it convicted Seromba for "his role in the destruction of the church in Nyange Parish, and the consequent death of approximately 1500 Tutsi refugees sheltering inside."

Seromba was convicted of leading a militia that attacked the people and poured fuel through the roof of the church, while police threw grenades inside. After failing to kill everybody inside the church, Seromba ordered it to be demolished, the tribunal found.

Thousands of Rwandans have turned away from Catholicism, angered and saddened by the complicity of church officials in the genocide.

Priests, nuns and followers were implicated in the killings and some churches were sites of notorious massacres.

The Rwanda war crimes tribunal has delivered 32 judgments, including five acquittals, since the U.N. Security Council established it in November 1994. There are 27 trials under way.
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2008, 01:55:38 PM »

You're confusing the conduct of some people in the Roman Catholic Church with official Roman Catholic policy, and what happened in Rwanda was nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2008, 02:35:33 PM »


It's no excuse to have organs ,,,if i had a voice i would sing.....nothing like the natural human voices singing praises to the co substantial and undivided Trinity our great Lord and God ,,,who gave us the voices to praise him.......please don't mention that in the old testament  the jews used instuments to praise the lord.....i know that but we arn't jews......
Brother,,,
     Ive heard Good Cantors and bad ones ,,also good and bad choirs  ..i prefer them anyday than a organ...God truly blesses his children that do the best in singing with a good or bad voice ,,because they gave to God all that they had ....also there voices improve for the better the longer one sings, thats God's blessing to them ....stasko/stanislav
....
First you state that if you had a voice you would sing and than in your next paragraph you state that even a bad chanter is welcomed. Thats fine but do you see the delema.
You're still not singing or chanting. Roll Eyes I don't like organs and I doubt there will be organs in the next age. Someone has to step up don't you think?
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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2008, 04:17:15 PM »

*
Right!  So is this the reason you had to attack us by creating what were originally called Uniate Churches but are now called "Orthodox in communion with Rome"?*
Never heard of uniatism?  A nasty, thoroughly well-organised and ongoing attempt to subvert the unity of the Orthodox Churches.


Uniatism was not designed to destroy the Eastern Orthodox Church. Rather it is a place for those who want to be Catholic without becoming Latin. It is meant to bring the EO Church back into communion with the Church established by Jesus Christ. It may not be the best way to accomplish this but it is an attempt.
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« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2008, 04:47:09 PM »

First you state that if you had a voice you would sing and than in your next paragraph you state that even a bad chanter is welcomed. Thats fine but do you see the delema.
You're still not singing or chanting. Roll Eyes I don't like organs and I doubt there will be organs in the next age. Someone has to step up don't you think?


your absolutly right i did say that but since we use old slavonic in the serbian church and i don't know it at all ,,,its going to tough to sing......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2008, 05:03:47 PM »

You're confusing the conduct of some people in the Roman Catholic Church with official Roman Catholic policy, and what happened in Rwanda was nothing to do with Eastern Orthodoxy.


Brate....may be different countrys but it is similar the atrocities though here it was catholic on catholic and if there were orthodox there they would of swiped the orthodox out probably first .....how do you know the official  roman church policy......i don't trust them.....if all of our bishops are smart they wouldn't either.....including his Holiness the ecumenical Patriarch.......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2008, 05:32:38 PM »


Brate....may be different countrys but it is similar the atrocities though here it was catholic on catholic and if there were orthodox there they would of swiped the orthodox out probably first .....how do you know the official  roman church policy......i don't trust them.....if all of our bishops are smart they wouldn't either.....including his Holiness the ecumenical Patriarch.......stasko/stanislav

In the absence of any valid secret documents detailing a hidden agenda, the best indicator of what the Latins' policy is will be what they tell the world it is.  Unless you have any evidence that it isn't their policy, you're engaging in nothing but groundless speculation.
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« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2008, 06:32:46 PM »

Never heard of uniatism?  A nasty, thoroughly well-organised and ongoing attempt to subvert the unity of the Orthodox Churches.
The Melkite Catholic Patriarch has called uniatism "an ecclesiological failure," which – as he sees it – can only be corrected by moving from unia to koinonia.


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« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2008, 11:37:37 PM »

In the absence of any valid secret documents detailing a hidden agenda, the best indicator of what the Latins' policy is will be what they tell the world it is.  Unless you have any evidence that it isn't their policy, you're engaging in nothing but groundless speculation.
(speaking to stashko)  And I might add the adjective paranoid to describe this speculation.
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« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2008, 11:57:59 PM »

In the absence of any valid secret documents detailing a hidden agenda, the best indicator of what the Latins' policy is will be what they tell the world it is.
You mean, like the"La Vista Report"?

Quote
" Fourteen years ago the U.S. Government de-classified the now famous "La Vista Report" of May 15, 1947, a top-secret U.S. Army Intelligence report documenting the Vatican’s role in aiding the escape of numerous high-ranking Nazi war criminals, among them Ante Pavelic, fascist leader of wartime Croatia; Franz Stangel, Commander of Treblinka; Eduard Roschmann, "the Butcher of Riga"; Klaus Barbie, "the Butcher of Lyon"; SS General Walter Rauff, inventor of the mobile gas truck; Adolf Eichmann, "architect of the Holocaust"; and tens of thousands of others. Writing about the document prior to its release, internationally renowned Nazi hunter Charles R. Allen Jr. noted that in light of the revelations contained in this and other classified documents about the role of the Vatican in the Holocaust it would be logical and proper that a commission of inquiry into these concerns including Jewish and Catholic scholars ought to be established to locate and examine all documentation in all relevant archives so that collectively they may determine what role both the Vatican and US Intelligence played in aiding and abetting the escape of some of history’s most notorious murderers. ...............

.........The leader of the Catholic Church in Croatia, Archbishop Stepinac, fervently supported the Ustasha movement and welcomed the invading Nazi army as it entered Zagreb. On April 11th he met with Ustasha leaders and on April 12th he blessed the newly arrived Ustasha leadership in a public ceremony at his cathedral. In his Easter address of that month he compared the creation of the new fascist state to the resurrection of Christ. In his pastoral letter of April 28th he ordered the clergy and called upon all Catholic people of Croatia and Bosnia to follow their "Poglavnik" (Fuhrer) Ante Pavelic, for he had seen in Pavelic’s rule "God’s hand in action." The pastoral letter was read over the radio and in every Catholic parish in fascist Croatia.

Stepinac met with the Croatian Fuhrer when he arrived from Italy on April 16th. That evening Stepinac held a dinner party in his residence in honor of Pavelic and the Ustasha leadership. In his diary, Stepinac described the day and admitted that Pavelic told him of his plans to "exterminate" the non-Catholic religions in Croatia. Stepinac’s diary indicates that he too was prepared for an all out religious war, for he added that "If that man (Pavelic) rules Croatia for ten years...Croatia will be a paradise on earth."

There is no question that Stepinac knew of the Ustasha’s plans for committing genocide even before they came to power. After Stepinac’s death in 1960, Ilija Jukic, a leading member of the Croatian Peasant Party, wrote of how he had told Stepinac in March 1941 that the Pavelic-Budak group "were thinking of applying Hitler’s methods to the Serbs in Croatia if they ever came to power." Stepinac disingenuously told Jukic that he would look into it. But Stepinac already was resolved on an attitude of passive acceptance of genocide, as is revealed from entries in his diary, such as one from 1940 when he wrote: "... the Serbs have not learned anything... and in the end they will lose everything.... I wish them no evil because they are God’s children. But if nothing can teach them a lesson, distress will."'
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2008, 12:02:45 AM »

(speaking to stashko)  And I would add the adjective paranoid to describe this speculation.



Now i see there are many posters that stopped posting here, on this forum  it has a lot of old posts that go back years,,let me ask the question were are these people were did they go ,,, maybe replies by the moderators like this drove them off.....when i first joined this forum i compilmented the interaction  be us and the moderators maybe i spoke to soon ....ask father ambrose if im parinoid or not....history it self confesses romes treachery against the orthodox east......so if that makes me parinoid so be it .....mom and dad were in jesenovac bosnia death camp due to the croatian/Franciscan/ustasha..... stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2008, 12:15:44 AM »

Stashko...  These are the same folks who were touting the "Vatican propaganda" machine in another thread last week. Just consider the sources and don't worry about their lack of consistency.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2008, 12:17:04 AM »

maybe replies by the moderators like this drove them off.....
I'm a moderator too, and I have a different opinion (see above).
Don't forget, moderators are poster's too. Unless they are writing in green they are not acting as a moderator. We moderators couldn't be a more different bunch of posters, and often disagree about issues such as this, but we still manage to work together.
I can understand this thread upsetting you.
Remember, it's the first week of Lent, and the Purple Demons are about (I think you guys call them the "Snakes"). These demons will make people say and do things they don't mean to do. A metania and asking of forgiveness is enough to drive them away and the Bells of Pascha will send them back to hell until next year.
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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2008, 12:30:11 AM »

Stashko...  These are the same folks who were touting the "Vatican propaganda" machine in another thread last week. Just consider the sources and don't worry about their lack of consistency.  Roll Eyes


I read it Brother....they really  slamed into our saintly Fr. Ambrose on that thread.......God forgive them...stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2008, 12:32:38 AM »

You mean, like the"La Vista Report"?



God Bless you Brother thanks for this above.......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2008, 12:36:43 AM »

 Roll Eyes
Who needs Rome to divide the Orthodox when we do such a good job of it ourselves?
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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2008, 12:48:49 AM »



Now i see there are many posters that stopped posting here, on this forum  it has a lot of old posts that go back years,,let me ask the question were are these people were did they go ,,, maybe replies by the moderators like this drove them off.....when i first joined this forum i compilmented the interaction  be us and the moderators maybe i spoke to soon ....ask father ambrose if im parinoid or not....history it self confesses romes treachery against the orthodox east......so if that makes me parinoid so be it .....mom and dad were in jesenovac bosnia death camp due to the croatian/Franciscan/ustasha..... stasko/stanislav
stashko,

I consider myself generally aware of the nature of relations between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, though I certainly am ignorant of some details of how the Roman church has treated specific peoples (such as the genocides of the 1940's).  As such, I try to extend to Rome the benefit of the doubt and avoid giving credence to ideas of "hidden Vatican agendas" in their ecumenical relations with the Orthodox Church.  I don't deny, though, the reality of your experience of the Ustasha, backed as it was by the hierarchy of the Roman church in Croatia.  I evidently need to inform myself a bit more regarding this chapter in your family's history so I can offer you more sensitivity than I did by insinuating that you may be paranoid.  Please forgive me for my rather tactless choice of words.

- Peter
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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2008, 12:57:18 AM »

Roll Eyes
Who needs Rome to divide the Orthodox when we do such a good job of it ourselves?
Brother this above i don't  understand....i allway thought we are united ,,the orthodox in the holy mysteries and not  by one supreme bishop.....??
Brother a question is the east and west easter on the same day this year...i don't have a orthodox calendar to look it up...i looked at the forum calendar all it lists is birthdays.......stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2008, 01:01:39 AM »

i allway thought we are united ,,the orthodox in the holy mysteries and not  by one supreme bishop.....??
And what's the point of being united in the Mysteries when we publicly attack each other on the Internet for the world to see?
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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2008, 01:21:47 AM »

And what's the point of being united in the Mysteries when we publicly attack each other on the Internet for the world to see?

Maybe there is no point...you will know them by their fruits.
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« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2008, 01:28:05 AM »

Maybe there is no point...you will know them by their fruits.
Yep.
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« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2008, 01:39:16 AM »

Which is why I used the nominative case of the first-person plural pronoun.  Wink
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« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2008, 02:03:13 AM »

Which is why I used the nominative case of the first-person plural pronoun.  Wink

And I used the third person...because I don't even try to pretend anymore Wink
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« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2008, 02:11:59 AM »

And I used the third person...because I don't even try to pretend anymore Wink
You don't have to pretend. I've seen your fruits GiC, and they are good (despite your claims to the contrary).
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« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2008, 03:30:32 AM »

Nothing so beautiful as an organ recital of Bach's canatas and fueges. Thanks be to God for talented and artistically/musically inspired people!

Well true, I meant in an Orthodox Church though, destroying the Byzantine Chant.
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« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »

The short answer: according to Rome's own lights yes! Although some Roman Catholic websites (including biased news ones) egg on division between Orthodox leaders I don't think 'divide and conquer' is what Rome is trying to do (unlike in the 1500s with the start of the Greek Catholic churches).

Well said.

Rome wants corporate reunion with all the Orthodox. It sincerely believes that Orthodoxy with the modern Vatican glued on top would still be Orthodoxy. Essentially Greek Catholicism writ large only not self-latinised.

In part I agree with you, in part not. Yes, there are definitely some  Catholics who see reconciliation with the Orthodox in terms of "Greek Catholicism writ large only not self-latinised". But there are also a few of us who believe that uniatism was a mistake with or without latinization.

God bless,
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« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2008, 11:29:19 PM »

Organs weren't part of orthodoxy when i was growing up neither were pews,or new calendar.,,we kept the holy orthodox church the way we recieved it from our mother church in constantinople.....now our mother church has changed,,but we the children remain as it was given to us almost iv seen pews in some of our churches never liked them ,,,but thank God we don't have organ's or the new calendar,,,,,,hello new mom are you out there your children are calling you to bring us back to the ancient orthodox way....stasko/stanislav
I was at a Greek Orthodox Liturgy recently, and there was a musician who would introduce the singing with some chords from a hand held organ. I asked the priest about it, and he said that this was introduced so that people would sing on the correct note.
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« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2008, 11:32:19 PM »


I read it Brother....they really  slamed into our saintly Fr. Ambrose on that thread.......God forgive them...stasko/stanislav


I don't believe Fr Ambrose would be particularly comfortable with being described as saintly  Wink

John
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« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2008, 11:42:36 PM »

....history it self confesses romes treachery against the orthodox east......so if that makes me parinoid so be it .....mom and dad were in jesenovac bosnia death camp due to the croatian/Franciscan/ustasha..... stasko/stanislav
I don't know what the answer is for the terrible animosities that have developed between the different groups in the Balkans.
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« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2008, 06:19:38 AM »

I don't believe Fr Ambrose would be particularly comfortable with being described as saintly  Wink

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Brother...any one like Father that defends orthodoxy like he does and others and you also are living saints in my book...God Bless you Brate.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2008, 06:46:13 AM »

I don't know what the answer is for the terrible animosities that have developed between the different groups in the Balkans.


Its mostly religious hates croatian can't understand why were not under the pope,,,we can't understand why would anyboby want to be under a pope... Christ never left his church he is the supreme leader,,,he also gave us the holy spirit to teach lead and guide the church,,,  and the muslim are a different story the took sides with the croatians to benifit there position but they killed jews serbs jypsies and croatians and others....serbs were always a majority be it in bosnia,, kosovo,, serbia,, ...mountian negro ,,,vojvodina,,so the muslim wanted to whittle down the serbs...bosnian muslim fought at times against the croatian and the croatians fought them and us...some one that knows the situation there could answer better than i the reasons for the animosity mostly i think it was  for the land  ....how did a serb tell the difference between a croatian and a bosnian muslim during the war since we all look like the same people ...answer there told to drop there pants muslims are circumcise, croatian generally are not,,also the muslim did the same to identifiy a serb or a croatian from a muslim.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2008, 05:24:19 PM »

Brother,,,
For the latins maybe its fine.....  but not for us orthodox we like our ancient traditional way better.......and  not in the holy orthodox divine  liturgy.....stasko/stanislav

I totally agree.  Having experienced both ways (I was formerly Southern Baptist), I definitely prefer the Orthodox music with just the human voice.  I much prefer it to accompaniment by piano/organ/guitar (or whole praise band, which is my absolute pet peeve).  For one thing, I really like listening to the words of the hymn. 
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« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2008, 06:36:03 PM »

stashko,

I consider myself generally aware of the nature of relations between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics, though I certainly am ignorant of some details of how the Roman church has treated specific peoples (such as the genocides of the 1940's).  As such, I try to extend to Rome the benefit of the doubt and avoid giving credence to ideas of "hidden Vatican agendas" in their ecumenical relations with the Orthodox Church. 
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Peter, that´s different historic experience.

Nobody say all Roman Catholics persecute others everywhere, all the times.

But errors of St. Augustine and his Platonic view of permissibility of the use of force against heretics, adopted by Rome and lately confirmed by Thomas Aquinas, as well as emphasize on will by Bonaventura and Franciscans generally are theological foundation of it.

Methods of Jesuits and their creative approach to speaking the truth make the foundation they simply remain silent on it, since the goal justifies the means, according to them. While the goal is the earthy kingdom and not Heavenly Kingdom.

The influence of Messianic approach towards earthy kingdom from Judaism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Frank should neither be disregarded.

But I do wish you never understand the experience my bro Stanislav is speaking about.
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« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2008, 07:40:16 PM »

Im against any type of unity with the catholic roman church ...

As long as RCC wants dialog with us, we simply cannot refuse it and remain Christians.

What we cannot accept are joint prayers and the belief that there is more than one Church.

Yet, agenda of negotiations proposed by RCC and accepted by the representatives of Orthodox lead by Mrt. Zlizloulas, that fail to address the cricital issues of differences in Faith and is focused of lousy rephrase of Ecumenical Councils about primacy and taxis certainly leads to unrest among Orthodox.

Mrt. Zlizloulas should not lead any theological "commission" of Orthodox anymore.
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« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2008, 08:10:20 PM »

As long as RCC wants dialog with us, we simply cannot refuse it and remain Christians.

What we cannot accept are joint prayers and the belief that there is more than one Church.

Yet, agenda of negotiations proposed by RCC and accepted by the representatives of Orthodox lead by Mrt. Zlizloulas, that fail to address the cricital issues of differences in Faith and is focused of lousy rephrase of Ecumenical Councils about primacy and taxis certainly leads to unrest among Orthodox.

Mrt. Zlizloulas should not lead any theological "commission" of Orthodox anymore.



Forgive me brother i agree as the Lord says we have to be a family all christians togeather united .....it just so hard to trust anymore the western church.....but i do forgive.....How can all the other Patriarchs prevent this greek metropolitan from distorting everything ,,,why don't they speak up and support the russian patriarch before this goes to far.....in what the ecumenical patriarch is doing and allowing this metropolitan .........stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2008, 08:25:42 PM »


Forgive me brother ...

May God forgive you, bro, and may forgive me for I cannot see what is there that should be forgiven to you - I haven't noticed it.


How can all the other Patriarchs prevent this greek metropolitan from distorting everything ,,,why don't they speak up and support the russian patriarch before this goes to far.....in what the ecumenical patriarch is doing and allowing this metropolitan .........stasko/stanislav

It seems most of them think the best method is to ignore him. The approach has been taken by Russians, too.

I don't know if Ecumenical Patriarch can do anything. He is captive.
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« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2008, 08:34:32 PM »

I totally agree.  Having experienced both ways (I was formerly Southern Baptist), I definitely prefer the Orthodox music with just the human voice.  I much prefer it to accompaniment by piano/organ/guitar (or whole praise band, which is my absolute pet peeve).  For one thing, I really like listening to the words of the hymn. 


I agree the hymn's are beautiful not drowned out by a organ ....the hymn's are theology in song in what we as orthodox believe.....stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2008, 08:49:05 PM »


Its mostly religious hates croatian can't understand why were not under the pope,,,we can't understand why would anyboby want to be under a pope... Christ never left his church he is the supreme leader,,,he also gave us the holy spirit to teach lead and guide the church,,,  and the muslim are a different story the took sides with the croatians to benifit there position but they killed jews serbs jypsies and croatians and others....serbs were always a majority be it in bosnia,, kosovo,, serbia,, ...mountian negro ,,,vojvodina,,so the muslim wanted to whittle down the serbs...bosnian muslim fought at times against the croatian and the croatians fought them and us...some one that knows the situation there could answer better than i the reasons for the animosity mostly i think it was  for the land  ...
But how to promote reconciliation appears to remain elusive.
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« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2008, 10:27:05 AM »

Peter, that´s different historic experience.

Nobody say all Roman Catholics persecute others everywhere, all the times.

But errors of St. Augustine and his Platonic view of permissibility of the use of force against heretics, adopted by Rome and lately confirmed by Thomas Aquinas, as well as emphasize on will by Bonaventura and Franciscans generally are theological foundation of it.

Surely you don't think the Byzantines held to a concept of "religious freedom," do you? They were hardly religious pluralists, just as "medieval" as the Westerners.
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« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2008, 12:23:46 PM »

Surely you don't think the Byzantines held to a concept of "religious freedom," do you? They were hardly religious pluralists, just as "medieval" as the Westerners.

Surely you don't think I'd buy such a false equalizer between the Eastern Rome and the Western One?

There is clear line of distinction between them proved not only by the differences in theology I posted above and you failed to refer to, than in history, too.
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« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2008, 03:38:01 AM »

There are many sincere people in the Roman communion who wish to see reconciliation with Orthodoxy.  However, in the end, I believe that, tragically, the Roman curia is not sincere and wishes to absorb Orthodoxy.  I am quoting a post I made in response to a post by lubeltri on The Roman Catholic View of Mortal Sin thread and posts I have made on other threads to support this argument.

This is a big hobby-horse of your's, I can see.  It's perfectly natural for the Orthodox to define themselves in opposition to the RCC, since non-Orthodox seem to find them to be so similar, and since many RC ecumenical types often poo-poo the differences between the two Churches. 

The RCC is a much bigger "noise" in the world today than the Orthodox Church.  I don't think you realise how sensitive the Orthodox are about this, and how nervous the RCC makes them feel.  Or to put it another way; you are aware of how the Orthodox feel, but seeing the RCC as being essentially a benevolent organisation, or in fact as the very vehicle of salvation, you are aghast at why so many Orthodox see the need to distinguish themselves from the RCC.   Some of the Orthodox concern is due to unreasonable paranoia, but some is clearly not.  A couple of years ago, I mentioned to you that RC schools in the Middle East encourage Orthodox to join them and receive a free education.  All they have to do in return is join the Melkite Church.  How is this to be understood by the Orthodox? 

I personally really love the present Pope.  I really respect how he "tells is like it is", but does so in a spirit of love.  I trust in his sincerity.  However, I am really not sure that the Roman curia wants anything other than to absorb Orthodoxy, not come to a consensus with Her about ecclesial matters.  It's unfortunately only far too human to want to preserve what prestige, power, and influence one already has, and not give it up.  I'm not saying that this is true only in the RCC; Orthodoxy has its problems with this kind of attitude today too.  Suffice it to say, however, that while I may love and admire individual RC people or prelates, that I do not trust the motives of the RCC as a whole. 


... the Vatican bureaucracy is so vast, that often the "right hand does not know what the left hand is doing."...


.... I once heard an Eastern Catholic priest tell a story about an audience some Catholics had with the Pope (Paul VI if memory serves).  During the audience, one of the faithful asked the Pope: "Holy Father, how many people work in the Vatican?"  The Pope  considered the question thoughtfully for a few moments, and then responded:  "Oh, I would say about half."  In other words, fifty percent of the people working in the Vatican were trying to implement the policies and practices of the Roman see, while the other half were either tying them up in bureaucratic knots, ignoring them, or actively opposing them.

The continuing negative experience of the Eastern Catholics with the Roman Church should put the Orthodox on the alert.  Here is but one example: the field of canon law.  They have been struggling for decades to have eastern concepts recognized in their canon law, but continue to have to make decisions based on Roman concepts, as I see it seemingly because Roman canon lawyers simply can't be bothered to go online and order a few books on Orthodox views of canon law and ecclesiology!  Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to root around for themselves and find some info.  Perhaps you could start with the work of the well-respected Eastern Catholic canon lawyer Fr Jobe Abbass (sp?)

It seems that well-intentioned Catholics  sometimes seem to have great difficulty grasping Eastern concepts.  But when they work at it, they can come up with remarkably charitible and gracious ways of relating to the Orthodox.  One should remember that a considerable amount of positive change that emanated from Vatican II(and all but the most rigid Orthodox, IMHO, would have to acknowledge that at leastsome  positive things came from Vatican II) was inspired by the Melkite Church.  A document like the one signed at Balamand, however, is a mixed creature.  Clearly, there are elements in Balamand that are totally incompatible with Orthodox ecclesiology, but on the other hand, some of its declarations show remarkable sensitivity and deference to Orthodox values and concepts regarding the nature of the Church.

Orthodox nervousness regarding the Catholic Church cannot all be dismissed simply as Orthodox paranoia, though there is an unfortunate element of that present.  There are prominent Catholics out there, who, IMHO, are rightly viewed by the Orthodox as having a kind of benevolent yet arrogant superiority complex regarding the Eastern Church based on genuine ignorance about the differences between the West and Orthodoxy.  "The Orthodox are exactly the same as us, except that they are completely disorganised and don't have the benefit of communion with the Roman see, poor souls.  Oh yes, and they have such a beautiful and rich liturigical tradition."
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« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2008, 03:58:40 AM »

The RCC is so vast and entwined with so many bureaucratic structures, that often "the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing".  Well-meaning people are thwarted (who knows how much) by those who simply want to see as much ecclesial prestige as possible to remain concentrated where it is today, and well-meaning people who want to accomodate the Orthodox are held at bay by those who would like to absorb the Orthodox Church into the Catholic fold, in a situation not unlike that under which Eastern Catholicism exists today.  Pope Benedict may well desire in his heart of hearts to see a return to the understanding of the papacy as it was in the Patristic era, I don't know, but there is no way that he would be able to pull this off with entrenched Vatican power interests looking on.  When all is said and done, this is, unfortunately, the sober reality of the situation.
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« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2008, 10:25:14 AM »

Pravoslavbob has it right. I'd say that the pope is too far removed from much of what goes on. Even interpretations of encyclicals can wind up subverting the original intent. JP IIs writings would lead one to believe that the eastern catholic churches should be returning to their traditions, but they have been unable to overcome  politics in the process. So, some things get restored, and other things get added that are not traditional, such as routinely holding Saturday evening vesperal liturgies, a la Saturday evening RC masses, that just happen to make Sunday attendance unnecessary. Not exactly a return to eastern tradition IMHO.

Worse for me is the lack of closer relationships between congregations and their clergy because of the size of RC parishes. There is a standard nowadays in American RC dioceses of about 7000 parishioners per priest- hardly a ratio that makes for a relationship with a spiritual father. The RC church appears too willing to change things to meet current social trends if it is expedient to do so, as long as it doesn't upset the established order itself. It's the internal spiritual warfare that should matter most. I don't see how Orthodoxy could reconcile with them as a result.
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