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Author Topic: If we are so Orthodox do we really need the Papacy?  (Read 2836 times) Average Rating: 0
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Dan Lauffer
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« on: October 30, 2002, 09:07:50 AM »

Friends,

There is an excellent discussion of this topic going on now on the ByzCath.org forum. Check it out and let's talk.

http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001627#000014


Dan Lauffer
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Robert
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2002, 02:57:13 PM »

Dan,

I understand you are trying to be helpful with the link.

But it would be more appropiate in my opinion to start a new thread here, then to link to another forum's thread that represents a Catholic opinion.


Bobby
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2002, 03:33:09 PM »

Dear brothers,

Parse the concept whichever way one will, 'Orthodox in Communion with Rome'--and in light of the Vatican I dogma--can never be considered other than a nonsequitur according to the ethos of Holy Orthodoxy, the Pillar and Ground of Truth.

Abdur
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Aklie Semaet
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2002, 03:54:14 PM »

I find it unfortunate and counterproductive that in most of these discussions about reunion with Rome the dominant issue is the role of the Papacy. There are tons of issues that need to be discussed and resolved. Things like Christology, Baptismal rites, purgatory, etc. But we never talk about any of that; the issue always centers around what power the Pope is supposed to hold over us, how we need to submit to him, how his infallibility is played out, etc. This indicates that the discussion is centered on power and not on Christ.
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2002, 04:11:50 PM »

Dear Aklie,

Interesting point.  

I know speaking for myself that I like discussing the papacy and its role in a unified Church because, in my opinion, the office of the papacy and its exercise is the only significant issue that divides us.  If we can work on this and fix this, I feel the rest of the stuff will either be easier to deal with or will be demonstrated to be not as big a deal as we thought.
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2002, 04:28:45 PM »

[I find it unfortunate and counterproductive that in most of these discussions about reunion with Rome the dominant issue is the role of the Papacy.]

I understand what you are saying and I do not neceassarily disagree with it.  But to resolve any issue you have to start from the top and work from there.

And, in this case, the role of the Papacy is the key issue.  Once thats resolved, the rest of the issues can be resolved through truly Ecumenical councils..

We Orthodox Catholics shake our heads when the topic of negiotation regarding doctrine is brought up.  Our reaction is....... Other than the issue of the Pope, what is there to negiotate?  Everything we now believe is exactly what the whole church  believed when it was still basically united and comprised of the 'One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church' we profess belief in.  We have neither added, subtracted, or changed any dogma as both the Roman Catholics and Protestants have.  

Therefore, it is up to them to return and we will all build from there.

I agree that there are many theological issues to be resolved, and that the Churches aren't as close as some Papal Catholics claim.  Because what has been added by that Church since the schism.

Orthodoc
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Aklie Semaet
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2002, 04:36:15 PM »

Mor Ephrem,

Yes, I totally agree with you. I made a more complete statement on this on the other website.

I just can not help but to notice that all the discussion on this issue always ends up with how the Pope needs to have the power to interfere in our internal affairs, how we would all crumble to jurisdictional chaos if we didn't have a Pope, etc. All of these false conclusions are false because they rest on an incorrect premise. One of them is that we need them (the Vatican) to maintain our integral unity. How is that? Our Church has been the same since it began 2,000 years ago. Theirs has split numerous times; thanks in part to their legalistic intolerance they gave us the great 'gift' of Protestantism (which is a wild buffalo herd, eclectic as can be, and appears that it will never be tamed and brought back to Apostolic sanity). With a record like that how are they to keep US united?
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Ethiopia ijochwan wede Egzabiher tezregalech
Dan Lauffer
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2002, 05:22:08 PM »

Bobby,

I may start a new thread if I have time.

BTW My avatar does resemble me.  Just ask Serge.  

But you look Marvelous. Grin

Dan Lauffer
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Aklie Semaet
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2002, 05:39:06 PM »

Sorry Orthodoc,

I didn't see your post earlier. I am in agreement with you. My intention, or my orientation on this question, is not coming across well. I am only criticizing Catholics who center the whole discussion on how they need to control us, etc. Don’t you agree that this seems to be more about power and not so much about Christ?  
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Ethiopia ijochwan wede Egzabiher tezregalech
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2002, 06:00:43 PM »

[Don’t you agree that this seems to be more about power and not so much about Christ?]

ABSOLUTELY!  I see the whole Vatican that way!

Orthodoc
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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
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