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Author Topic: EP & Met. Zizioulas Slam The Russian Orthodox Church As They Meet In Rome  (Read 14576 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 07, 2008, 03:51:27 AM »

03/06/2008 20:46

VATICAN - ORTHODOX

Orthodox and Catholics together to respond to the world's challenges, says
Bartholomew I
by NAT da Polis

http://www.asianews.it/main.php?l=en

The ecumenical patriarch delivers a masterful inaugural lecture for the 90th
anniversary of the Pontifical Oriental Institute. Metropolitan of Pergamon
Ioannis Zizioulas talks about the isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church
who, in name of tradition, finds itself unable to face the modern world.


Rome (AsiaNews) - A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way
to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the
self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points
Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to
the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome. They are also the main thrust in
Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas' comments to AsiaNews about the
patriarch's speech. For the latter the attitude of the Russian Orthodox
Church is one of "conservatism," showing an inability to meet "the
challenges of the modern world."

Bartholomew I was invited to Rome for the 90th anniversary of the Institute,
an institution that includes the well-known Faculties of Eastern Church
Studies and Eastern Canon Law.

The Patriarch spoke about what the Orthodox Church expects from this
institution as service to the contemporary world. In his inaugural lecture
titled Theology, Liturgy, and Silence - Fundamental Insights from the
Eastern Fathers for the Modern World, he stressed the importance to the
theology of the great Fathers of the Church, those of the united Church of
the first millennium, whose spirit lives on as a solid basis for the
document elaborated in Ravenna, which is the Sister Churches' response to
the challenges of the contemporary world.

What word of salvation can the Eastern Church's theology bring to the modern
world? To this initial question, Bartholomew answered by starting with
Patristic theology, explaining that such a theology cannot be reduced to a
structured system of truth, but is on the contrary the light and grace of
the Holy Spirit which gives life to the whole Church and thus "rejuvenates
the entire world."

A theology that is cut off from Church and society is "a sterile study of
doctrinal formulations, rather than a deifying vision of conviction and
commitment, capable of transforming the whole world."

During the Age of Byzantium, so reviled because misunderstood, when
religious live encompassed every aspect of secular life, when "[t]heological
culture embraced every aspect," he said, every "manifestation, activity,
institution, intuition, and literary achievement in Byzantine society [. .
.] the Church Fathers were primarily pastors, not philosophers. They were
concerned first with reforming the human heart and transforming society, not
with refining concepts or resolving controversies." For the patriarch the
fundamental aspects of Patristic thought can enlighten theology in the modem
age.

Liturgy

First of all, the Fathers of the Church never saw theology as a monopoly of
the professional academic or the official hierarchy. Theology, Bartholomew I
noted, was a communal experience or as St Paul put it, a way "to bring to
light [for all] what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in
 God" (Eph, 3:9). Again this background it is the Church which guarantees
the Apostolic Age's normative continuity, from Patristic times till now. And
when the Church prays as a liturgical assembly it is truly itself.

Thanks to this liturgical aspect Eastern Christians were given courage under
the Ottoman Empire and more recently under post-Revolutionary Russia. "This
profound sense of community must, therefore, also characterize our
theological perception of the world today. This means that no individual can
ever exhaust the fullness of truth in isolation from others, outside the
communion of saints."

The Patriarch also spoke about Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. "With regard to
fraternal relations among our Sister Churches, [if] the two lungs of the
Eastern and Western Churches [. . .] must breathe in harmony, [n]either
should assume provocative initiatives-whether unilaterally or universally-in
its ministry to God's people."

Finally, "[w]e urge you to serve the theological word by breathing the air
of theology and kneeling humbly before the living Creator", Bartholomew
said, invitng the Pontifical Oriental Institute to "play a decisive role in
the rapprochement between the East and the West."

Russian Orthodoxy's insularity

The Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas, an eminent Orthodox
theologian, spoke with AsiaNews about the difficult ecumenical path with the
Russian Orthodox Church. This comes just a day after a representative of the
Moscow Patriarchate advised Orthodox believers not to pray with members of
other Christian confessions.

"In the Eastern Church, especially in the Russian Church, there is a degree
of insularity that leads to conservatism. There is an inability to face the
challenges of the modern world, with tradition as an excuse," Metropolitan
Ioannis said.

The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today, said that "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition. Tradition as the Christian Church's
message does not mean doing nothing; instead it contains truth's momentum
and does not fear the challenge of the contemporary world."

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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2008, 04:11:52 AM »

Ziziloulas at it again. ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2008, 05:15:54 AM »

..., an eminent Orthodox
theologian, spoke with AsiaNews about the ...

To me, this is becoming unbearable.

Please, pray for me.
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2008, 07:25:31 AM »

Quote
The Patriarch also spoke about Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. "With regard to
fraternal relations among our Sister Churches, [if] the two lungs of the
Eastern and Western Churches [. . .] must breathe in harmony, [n]either
should assume provocative initiatives-whether unilaterally or universally-in
its ministry to God's people."

Ugh! The EP needs to revisit the talk he gave declaring our ontological differences with Rome and steer clear of this nonsense.

Quote
"In the Eastern Church, especially in the Russian Church, there is a degree
of insularity that leads to conservatism. There is an inability to face the
challenges of the modern world, with tradition as an excuse," Metropolitan
Ioannis said.

Is it me, or is Metr. Zizioulas sounding more and more like so many Catholic apologists? I'll take the MP's 'inability to face the challenges of the modern world' over Metr. Zizioulas' supposed 'ability' any day.

Quote
The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today, said that "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition. Tradition as the Christian Church's
message does not mean doing nothing; instead it contains truth's momentum
and does not fear the challenge of the contemporary world."

What does that mean, "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition"? Sounds a bit unorthodox to me, but then I'm not a theologian.

John
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 07:26:47 AM by prodromos » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2008, 07:46:34 AM »

Ugh! The EP needs to revisit the talk he gave declaring our ontological differences with Rome and steer clear of this nonsense.

Is it me, or is Metr. Zizioulas sounding more and more like so many Catholic apologists? I'll take the MP's 'inability to face the challenges of the modern world' over Metr. Zizioulas' supposed 'ability' any day.

What does that mean, "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition"? Sounds a bit unorthodox to me, but then I'm not a theologian.

Since they are in Rome, didn't they notice the scramble to undo the chaos of the reshaping of tradition a la Vatican II, out of which Rome is only now emerging?

As for facing the modern world, New Rome is not the capital of a Christian empire, its the captive of an aggresively secular Muslim one.  The EP is repeating the mistakes of Old Rome when it sunk into obscurity during the Dark Ages, resulting in 1054.
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2008, 08:21:49 AM »

To me, this is becoming unbearable.

Please, pray for me.
Lurker,

I also found it unbearable when I read it.

For those who enjoy the politics of the Church and the ongoing Moscow-Constantinople stand-off, this will be great entertainment.

For those who love the Church and wish her to dwell in peace and love, this is simply a misery.

How unthinkable that the EP and Zizioulas should launch this attack on the Russian Church from the precincts of the Vatican!    How the Vatican must be enthralled with the antics and the petty vindictiveness of these two men, one of them supposedly the spiritual leader of all the world's Orthodox.

Even if the Pope is a man of the utmost integrity he must have felt a small frisson of delight to see the Moscow-Constantinople problem get ratcheted up several more notches.

It is obvious that the EP is trying to capitalise on the contretemps which developed at Ravenna last October with the Russians.  He is trying to ingratiate himself with the Pope and the Vatican.   How the Catholics must despise these two men, even as they will use them and shower praises on them.

The sooner Bartholomew and Zizioulas accept a cardinal's hat from the Supreme Pontiff and take up residence in Rome the better.

I apologise for my words if they seem strong.  I am deeply wounded by this Greek attack on the Russian Church.  I am deeply wounded by the bad impressions this will give everybody about the Orthodox Church and its unity and about the quality of our leaders.  I am deeply wounded by the thought that the EP and Zizioulas have enflamed the existing wounds between Moscow and Constantinople.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 08:24:48 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2008, 08:26:16 AM »

Amen Father, I couldn't agree more.

John
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2008, 09:16:21 AM »

...

Thank you Father, I did start feeling a relief.

It seems Patriarch Bartholomew has not mentioned Russians at all, it was Mrt. Zlizlous who did it.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801277.htm
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2008, 09:49:43 AM »

How unthinkable that the EP and Zizioulas should launch this attack on the Russian Church from the precincts of the Vatican!   
About as unthinkable as an Orthodox Priest slandering the Ecumenical Patriarch....
News for you father, His All Holiness didn't do what you claimed, nor is Metropolitan Zizoulas in Rome.
So can we expect a retraction, an apology?
Nah...guess not.
What an interesting Lent you lot observe.
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 11:54:45 AM »



reshape our tradition  Watch this phrase during 2008.
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 11:59:37 AM »

OzGeorge:

To quote the news article in speaking of Zizioulas: "The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today..."

Certainly sounds like Zizioulas was in Rome with Bartholomew to me. So George, when... "...can we expect a retraction, an apology?" from you ?  Roll Eyes

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Quote: "The sooner Bartholomew and Zizioulas accept a cardinal's hat from the Supreme Pontiff and take up residence in Rome the better."


Couldn't have said it better myself.

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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2008, 12:21:09 PM »

Certainly sounds like Zizioulas was in Rome with Bartholomew to me.
Actually, I went over the article again and, after reading ozgeorge's complaint, there are some vagueness. Is Metr. Zizloulas in Rome, or if he had just spoke with the reporter while was accompanying the Patriarch during a previous visit?

We had an opportunity in Serbia to witness false agency report about the words of one of Serbian Metropolitans yesterday.
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2008, 12:30:12 PM »

If the last two paragraphs of the news article are accurate, then Zizioulas was indeed in Rome with Bartholomew on this latest escapade.

Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for George's apology for slandering an Orthodox priest, during Lent, etc., etc.
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2008, 12:39:37 PM »

If the last two paragraphs of the news article are accurate, then Zizioulas was indeed in Rome with Bartholomew on this latest escapade.

Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for George's apology for slandering an Orthodox priest, during Lent, etc., etc.

Well, we are speaking about if that might tear as apart.

It's curious the report is in asia times while the visit, as covered by European reports, and words of Patriarch Bartholomew, have been  business as usual. Metr Zizloulas' words got a bit more poison on the arrows than the last time...
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2008, 01:12:34 PM »

Speaking of this latest escapade... looks like it has produced more "spirit of Ravenna" fruit:

Bartholomew invited by the pope to participate in the synod of bishops

(http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11708&size=A)

» 03/07/2008 13:13
VATICAN
by NAT da Polis
In the "spirit of Ravenna", the ecumenical patriarch will take part in the meeting of the world's Catholic bishops, scheduled to take place in October on the theme "The word of God in the life and mission of the Church".


Vatican City (AsiaNews) - Benedict XVI has invited ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew to take part in the upcoming synod of bishops, scheduled for October, and to give an address to the assembly, together with the pope himself.

The news of the invitation, not yet released by Vatican sources, comes at the conclusion of Bartholomew's visit to Rome for the 90th anniversary of the Pontifical Oriental Institute, during which he met with the pope.  The invitation to attend the synod came during lunch yesterday.  In itself, the presence of representatives of other Christian Churches and confessions is a normal practice for synod assemblies, ever since Vatican Council II invited the "fraternal delegations".  What makes this event significant is the personal invitation extended to Bartholomew, the solemnity reserved for this, and the atmosphere in which it took place.

In regard to the meeting between Benedict XVI in Bartholomew, there has in fact been talk of the "spirit of Ravenna", meaning the meeting of the "Mixed international commission for theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church" held in Ravenna from October 8-14, 2007.  The final document of the meeting - although it was released by a commission, and is therefore not binding - was described as "an important step forward" by Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the pontifical council for Christian unity, although "the road to full unity is still a very long one".

The document, Cardinal Kasper explains to Vatican Radio, "speaks of the tension between authority and conciliarity, or collegiality, at the local level, meaning that of the diocese, and at the regional and universal level.  The important step is that for the first time the Orthodox Churches have told us yes, there exists this universal level of the Church, and there is also conciliarity, collegiality, and authority at the universal level; this means that there is also a Primacy: according to the practice of the ancient Church, the first bishop is the bishop of Rome, there is no doubt of this.  But we did not speak of what the privileges of the bishop of Rome are, we only indicated the praxis for the sake of future discussions".

But the ecumenical patriarch will not only be present at the 12th general ordinary assembly of the synod of bishops that will be held at the Vatican from October 5-26, 2008, on the theme of "The word of God in life and mission of the Church".  It seems, in fact, that Bartholomew could personally lead the delegation that the patriarchate sends to Rome every June 29th to take part in the celebration of the feast of Saint Peter and Paul.

***

Perhaps he will be getting that Cardinal's hat sooner than one might expect.  Grin


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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2008, 04:11:55 PM »

News for you father, His All Holiness didn't do what you claimed,

The article says these things:

"A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome."

Notice that the Russian Church was one of the Patriarch's two main points with his address.

"They are also the main thrust in Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas' comments to AsiaNews about the patriarch's speech.

His Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew initiated the attack on the Russian Orthodox Church as one of the main points in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome.  Met. Zizioulas picked it up and handed it to the Press in his comments about the Patriarch's speech.


Quote
nor is Metropolitan Zizoulas in Rome.

I see others have replied to this.

Quote
So can we expect a retraction, an apology?
Nah...guess not.

No! No apology.  It is His Divine All-Holiness who should be apologising to the Church for disgracing the Orthodox world and for intentionally exacerbating the stress between Moscow and Constantinople.
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2008, 04:29:59 PM »

Dear Ozgeorge,

There is no reason to take such a tone with Father Ambrose. Many of us know him to be one of the most kind and charitable Priests we have ever met, thanks be to God.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin




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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2008, 05:12:00 PM »

There is no reason to take such a tone with Father Ambrose. 
I'm not a groupie. Nor have I raised him to guru status.


Many of us know him to be one of the most kind and charitable Priests we have ever met, thanks be to God.
Obviously, you need to meet more priests.
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2008, 05:16:13 PM »

I'm not a groupie. Nor have I raised him to guru status.

Obviously, you need to meet more priests.
George,

I think this is awfully unfair.  After all, I reported His Divine All-Holiness accurately.  But you did not read accurately and you then attacked me unfairly.
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2008, 05:26:18 PM »

George,

I think this is awfully unfair.  After all, I reported His Divine All-Holiness accurately.  But you did not read accurately and you then attacked me unfairly.

No. What you're doing is gossiping based on a series of articles which never once quote His All Holiness in any way which supports your claim.

Sorry, I fail to see gossip as befitting either priests or monastics.

It is yourself who has brought disgrace on Orthodoxy, her Priesthood and her Monasticism- not Patriarch Bartholemew.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2008, 05:30:03 PM »


It is yourself who has brought disgrace on Orthodoxy, her Priesthood and her Monasticism- not Patriarch Bartholemew.

Now, THAT seems like pure conjecture.
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 05:31:56 PM »

Now, THAT seems like pure conjecture.

Not really. Just look at the fruits.
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 05:32:20 PM »

No. What you're doing is gossiping based on a series of articles which never once quote His All Holiness in any way which supports your claim.
It's possible that the article is a bunch of lies or that Zizioulas was lying to the reporter about what His Divine All-Holiness said.  One or the other must be true. Is that what you are saying?  Go back and read it again.
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 05:44:41 PM »

It's possible that the article is a bunch of lies or that Zizioulas was lying to the reporter about what His Divine All-Holiness said.  One or the other must be true. Is that what you are saying?  Go back and read it again.
I suggest you read the article again yourself.
His All Holiness is quoted several times in it. Yet not one quote from the Patriarch supports the claim that he denigrated the Russian Patriarch. Did you ever stop to question why? No. Because you wanted to rush in to be first to insult, slander and denigrate the Oecumenical Patriarch. "Kind and charitable people" are not quick to publically insult, slander condemn others on the flimsy basis of a media article which can't even quote the person to support it's claim. So no, I don't think what I said was "unfair"- it is an accurate assesment based on more evidence than your claims about His All Holiness.
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 07:53:44 PM »

I suggest you read the article again yourself.
His All Holiness is quoted several times in it. Yet not one quote from the Patriarch supports the claim that he denigrated the Russian Patriarch. Did you ever stop to question why? No. Because you wanted to rush in to be first to insult, slander and denigrate the Oecumenical Patriarch. "Kind and charitable people" are not quick to publically insult, slander condemn others on the flimsy basis of a media article which can't even quote the person to support it's claim. So no, I don't think what I said was "unfair"- it is an accurate assesment based on more evidence than your claims about His All Holiness.

Hear, hear!
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2008, 02:00:06 AM »

Hear, hear!
As I say, it is possible that either the newspaper lied or that Metr. Zizioulas lied to the newspaper.   Both are unlikely.  This is a high quality Roman Catholic paper headquartered in Rome and run by the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions.  It reports on Catholic religious news in "Asia" (which for their purposes includes Russia.)

http://www.asianews.it/

I suppose that the Russian Church has become so accustomed to interference from Constantinople over the last few decades that it is inclined to give credence to this report. 
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2008, 02:08:38 AM »

As I say, it is possible that either the newspaper lied or that Metr. Zizioulas lied to the newspaper.
Part of the issue I see is that you're presenting to us not only the news article, but also your commentary on the news article.  Frankly, I just don't see much in the text of the article itself to support much of your interpretation of it.
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2008, 02:13:11 AM »

It reports on Catholic religious news in "Asia" (which for their purposes includes Russia.)
I see. So you source your "news" from the asian version of "Zenit News Agency" (of which "asianews.it" is an affiliate according to their own website). The RC propaganda machine is your idea impartiality I guess.
I guess it never occurred to you that it is in the interests of RC propaganda to cause division between the EP and the MP. If it's on the internet in print, it must be the correct and impartial version of facts. Roll Eyes

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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2008, 03:21:09 AM »

Silly me... the Roman propaganda machine is to blame  Roll Eyes

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2008, 03:26:25 AM »

Part of the issue I see is that you're presenting to us not only the news article, but also your commentary on the news article.
I believe my commentary is borne out by what is stated in the newspaper.

Everybody has a commentary.  Your denial of my commentary constitutes *your* commentary. 

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« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2008, 03:31:36 AM »

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.
Since it is agitating a worthless worm of a monk in New Zealand they had better start denying it quick smart. I cannot sleep at night with the thought that the Patriarch and Zizioulas have attacked my Church.
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« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2008, 03:40:16 AM »

Silly me... the Roman propaganda machine is to blame  Roll Eyes
No. Silly you for using RC propaganda as your source of information, and making yourself look bad.
"Oh, the EP is leading us into a new false union with Rome, and here is an infallible article from a Vatican news source to prove it". Cheesy

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.
Perhaps being monks they spend their time in prayer instead of gossiping on the internet.
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2008, 03:41:47 AM »

I believe my commentary is borne out by what is stated in the newspaper.
As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published. Wink
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2008, 03:45:54 AM »

Unless any of us were present to hear His All Holiness's words, we are merely repeating media blurb. Without the full story, we are resorting to gossip, ill-informed conjecture and possibly slander. Not a good look for Lent.

And this isn't the first time that the EP has been insulted on this forum on the grounds of media hearsay and incomplete reporting. Perhaps tempers should have longer fuses, and a little thought and prayerful consideration entered into before fingers start typing.
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2008, 03:47:24 AM »

As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published. Wink

My thoughts, exactly.
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2008, 04:12:33 AM »

Since it is agitating a worthless worm of a monk in New Zealand they had better start denying it quick smart. I cannot sleep at night with the thought that the Patriarch and Zizioulas have attacked my Church.
Denying what? You still haven't told us what the Patriarch said to stir such righteous anger in you.

Lets see. The image source code for this smiley is "forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yikes.gif". Even your smileys have to be sourced from the Catholics.
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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2008, 04:17:31 AM »

As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published. Wink
Yes, quite right.  As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion.  I wonder if his Catholic friends in Rome have ever realised that?
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« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2008, 04:20:46 AM »

As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion.
And one wonders if he's even that, but we already hashed that out in another thread, so I won't go into it again here.
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« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2008, 04:23:15 AM »

I wonder if his Catholic friends in Rome have ever realised that?
Why don't you ask your Catholic friends at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency ?
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2008, 04:25:25 AM »

Denying what? You still haven't told us what the Patriarch said to stir such righteous anger in you.
Lets see. The image source code for this smiley is "forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yikes.gif". Even your smileys have to be sourced from the Catholics.
Well, the Moderators did say they were going to do something about upgrading the smileys on this Forum.....

As for sourcing it from the Catholics... I came here after spending several years on Catholic Answers Forum. So I have a collection of the smileys they use. They are not *their* smilies - they have sourced them from various other sources. 

As you know most of the Orthodox were booted out of there in November last year.  While I was on that Forum quite a number of Catholics investigated Orthodoxy and were eventually received.  I make no apologies for having been there.
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« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2008, 04:27:24 AM »

Why don't you ask your Catholic friends at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency ?
Isn't this getting a bit silly?  When have I said that the people at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency are my friends?
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« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2008, 04:29:37 AM »

As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion. 

You are convinced that the EP is pro-choice because of the abridged media statment you provided this forum? Quite frankly, Father, I am shocked that it takes so little for your respect to go to zero.

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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2008, 04:39:02 AM »

Isn't this getting a bit silly? 
"Getting" silly? The opening post was silly.

When have I said that the people at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency are my friends?
Well, you're willing to trust and believe in them aren't you?
I ask again: What particular words of the Patriarch aroused your righteous and impartial anger?
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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2008, 04:46:38 AM »

You are convinced that the EP is pro-choice because of the abridged media statment you provided this forum? Quite frankly, Father, I am shocked that it takes so little for your respect to go to zero.
Well, I would think that a pro-choice Patriarch would be enough to condemn him in itself without any other causes

See
"Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion" (written by a priest under the Ecumenical Throne)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf

But my disillusionment with him spreads across a whole spectrum...

His excommunication of the Jerusalem Patriarch at the time of the Australian upset, his interference in Estonia, the unlawful acceptance of Bishop Basil Osbourne, his interference and role in creating the mess in the Ukraine.

As for complaining that I lack respect for him...  I refer you to the statements made by his monks on the Holy Mountain.


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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2008, 04:50:39 AM »

Get back to me when you decide to answer my question:
I ask again: What particular words of the Patriarch aroused your righteous and impartial anger?
While you do your google search to find what the Patriarch actually said, I'm off to the Vigil.
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2008, 04:52:55 AM »

"Getting" silly? The opening post was silly.
The opening post was a news item from a reputable source.

If it is lying about what the Patriarch and the Metropolitan said, I am sure the the EP's public relations office will deny it within a few hours.  Obviously the EP would not want to damage any further his relationship with Moscow because of a mendacious news report.  So, in the meantime, let us patiently await the EP's press release.
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2008, 06:15:17 AM »

So, in the meantime, let us patiently await the EP's press release.

If you had waited patiently, Father, this thread would not started in the half-cocked and inflammatory manner that it did. Wink
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« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2008, 06:35:11 AM »

If you had waited patiently, Father, this thread would not started in the half-cocked and inflammatory manner that it did. Wink
I posted a news item from a reputable news source.  That's how it started , and not in a "half-cocked and inflammatory manner."

I have suggested waiting patiently for the EP media release on this in order to dampen the angry reaction of a few people on the Forum. 
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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2008, 06:57:19 AM »

I posted a news item from a reputable news source.  That's how it started , and not in a "half-cocked and inflammatory manner."

I'm sorry, Father, but repeating unconfirmed media statements about a man you have admitted to having zero respect for merely reveals your personal bias. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm sure you would have expected confirmation regarding any statement made by the Russian Patriarch; and would be a little upset to see this kind of half-cocked and inflammatory thread regarding him. I know I would be.

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« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2008, 08:19:51 AM »

I'm sorry, Father, but repeating unconfirmed media statements about a man you have admitted to having zero respect for merely reveals your personal bias.
Who does not have a bias, pro or con, about this controversial Patriarch?

If you are correct, then we shall expect to see a rectification of the misreported comments issued within a few hours from the EP's media office.  If they have misrepresented His Divine All-Holiness and Metr. Zizioulas to the extent that it may cause an intensification of the problems between Moscow and Constantinople, we can be sure he is horrified and he has already been on the telephone and arranging to have it corrected.
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« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2008, 08:47:12 AM »

No doubt ( Roll Eyes )the "Roman propaganda" machine is fabricating this bit of info. as well:

"Bartholomew I is being accompanied on his visit by Metropolitan Archbishop Gennadios of the Greek Orthodox in Italy and Malta, and exarch for Southern Europe; Metropolitan Athanasios of Helioupolis and Thiera; and Metropolitan Ioannis of Pergamo, Orthodox president of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches."

Source article here: http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-21986

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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2008, 11:09:10 AM »

If you are correct, then we shall expect to see a rectification of the misreported comments issued within a few hours

I've got an even better idea.
If you are correct in your "righteous anger", then surely we should see a response from His Beatitude Patriarch Alexy at this "affront" by His All Holiness even before His All Holiness "seeks to rectify" this pathetic online blurb you think qualifies as "news". Let's see what his Beatitude says.
By the way, why should we expect a response "in a few hours"? Don't you realise the "article" is already three days old?
But my guess is that both His All Holiness and His Beatitude, being Orthodox Monks, will be spending time in prayer rather than spending the eve and early hours of Cheesefare Sunday online in internet forums.
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« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2008, 12:08:49 PM »

But my guess is that both His All Holiness and His Beatitude, being Orthodox Monks, will be spending time in prayer rather than spending the eve and early hours of Cheesefare Sunday online in internet forums.
A bit judgemental?

I have a cardiac problem (several in fact) which impact on my life and my parish life. I am awake for about 4 hours and then asleep for about four hours.  Sitting vertically, say at a computer, is less strain on the heart than lying horizontal; in fact I sleep propped up in a vertical position.  I am on the waiting list for a heart transplant but it's unlikely I'll get it.  The 8-12 hearts available in this country per annum are allocated on a point system and I am a bit too old and I have no family.  First dibs goes to younger people who have spouses and children.  Tonight I read and intoned Vespers and Matins from the Triodion in my "cell" in front of the holy icons.  It's not ideal but I am not complaining (although it was a huge wrench to loose the ability to serve Liturgy about 4 years ago.)  But thank God for everything, the good and the bad.  One thing that has developed as I have fought back the idleness of being housebound is working with people on the Internet and acquainting them with the treasures of Orthodoxy.  This happens mainly on a list I operate for Celtic Christianity - it was never started with the intention of evangelising but it has turned out that way.

I ask your forgiveness for posting the article which annoyed you and for our following correspondence.
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« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2008, 12:25:08 PM »

I also ask forgiveness for causing any trouble, but also forgiveness for refraining to participate in the thread once I perceived my stance would hurt feelings.
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2008, 01:02:45 PM »

I ask your forgiveness for posting the article which annoyed you and for our following correspondence.
God forgives and so do I.
I'm sorry about our correspondence too, but rest assured that if someone accused you of something which you were not present to respond to, that I would stand up for you too.
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« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2008, 03:06:23 PM »

The opening post was a news item from a reputable source.

If it is lying about what the Patriarch and the Metropolitan said, I am sure the the EP's public relations office will deny it within a few hours.  Obviously the EP would not want to damage any further his relationship with Moscow because of a mendacious news report.  So, in the meantime, let us patiently await the EP's press release.
I don't think lying is the best word to describe what the news article has done with the Patriarch's and Metropolitan's statements; I would choose the word paraphrase, instead.  The article is probably very honest insofar as it goes, but it is still presenting to us their paraphrase of what the prelates said and spattering the text with just enough quotes to support their interpretation.  Is this honest journalism?  Maybe, if all you want is sound bites.  But it's probably quite biased, considering the known pro-Vatican agenda of Asia News, and it's certainly not complete.
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« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2008, 03:57:54 PM »

Theres no reason to deny the report, only its interpretation of what was actually said. The EP has been doing precisely what the report has conveyed for decades now. Are we still in denial about joint prayers taking place and that "agreed upon statments" dont exist?. Are we in denial that relations between the MP and the EP have been strained for many years now? And do any think the union of ROCOR and MP will have absolutely no effects on the Russian Church's role in ecumenism?
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« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2008, 04:06:44 PM »

Are we in denial that relations between the MP and the EP have been strained for many years now?
Good point.  A Vatican-leaning news agency sees discord between Moscow and Constantinople and thinks it big news.  But can they grasp the fact that the two partiarchates have often been at odds with each other since the Russian Church dubbed Moscow the Third Rome several hundred years ago?  This isn't news to the Orthodox.  (FWIW, I don't mean to imply in my words that "Moscow:  Third Rome" theory is the sole reason for such discord between the EP and MP, for I see both sides blameworthy in their divisiveness.)
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« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2008, 05:17:58 PM »

if family feuds did'nt exist things would be boring...

pax etc etc
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« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2008, 07:42:50 PM »

Theres no reason to deny the report, only its interpretation of what was actually said. The EP has been doing precisely what the report has conveyed for decades now. Are we still in denial about joint prayers taking place and that "agreed upon statments" dont exist?. Are we in denial that relations between the MP and the EP have been strained for many years now? And do any think the union of ROCOR and MP will have absolutely no effects on the Russian Church's role in ecumenism?

Besides, I heard recently that some GOAers in the states here have dubbed His All-Holiness "Black Bart".  There's no reason to be defensive since he obviously has some unhappy members in his constituency.  Those in the OCA (myself included) have obviously not been afraid to voice our disagreements with our hierarchs.
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« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2008, 09:51:29 PM »

Complete text of Bartholomew's lecture at the "Pontifical Oriental Institute" in Rome on March 6, 2008 - http://www.pontificalorientalinstitute.com/news/recent-news-and-events-at-poi/theology-liturgy-and-silence.html

Doubtless filtered through the "Roman propaganda" machine, I am sure Bartholomew, now that the text is available on-line, will peruse it and correct the world as to how the Roman's have twisted his words to serve their own evil machinations.  Roll Eyes

Pics of Bartholomew's return home to the "Pontifical Oriental Institute" here: http://www.pontificalorientalinstitute.com/gallery-and-multimedia/picture-gallery/bartolomeo-i-ecumenical-patriarch-of-constantinople-some-pics-of-the-event.html
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« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2008, 12:01:23 AM »

Complete text of Bartholomew's lecture at the "Pontifical Oriental Institute" in Rome on March 6, 2008 - http://www.pontificalorientalinstitute.com/news/recent-news-and-events-at-poi/theology-liturgy-and-silence.html
Is this really the complete text of the EP's address?  I saw nothing whatsoever in his address regarding Moscow, and the only mention of Russia was totally in passing.  I even did a text search for the name "Moscow" and found nothing.

Then again, after I reread yet again the Asia News article in this thread's OP, I saw nothing in the article to even remotely indicate that the EP ever said any one thing about Moscow--the only person reported to have spoken about Moscow was Metropolitan John (Zizioulas).
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« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2008, 12:29:22 AM »

Then again, after I reread yet again the Asia News article in this thread's OP, I saw nothing in the article to even remotely indicate that the EP ever said any one thing about Moscow
HUH?

Rome (AsiaNews) – "A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome."


Note the main points of the Patriarch's address:

1) Catholic-Orthodox unity needed to face the challenges of the modern world

2) the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church


The article then continues:

"They [Catholic-Orthodox unity and Russia's isolation] are also the main thrust in Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas’ comments to AsiaNews about the patriarch’s speech. For the latter the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church is one of “conservatism,” showing an inability to meet “the challenges of the modern world."

Now I have to agree that it is most strange that the news report says that the matter of the Russian Church's self-isolation was one of the two main points of the presentation by the EP.  Yet the text which is now on the Web says not one word about this!!

It is doubly strange that the Metropolitan confirms that the Russian self-isolation was one of the major "thrusts" of the EP's speech.  And yet again, it does not even exist in the text of the speech which is on the web.

Something is awry.

Has the online speech been edited so as not to offend the Russians?  Did His Divine All-Holines realise he may have stepped over the line and virtually declared war on a sister Church from the precincts of the Vatican?   Did the Vatican immediately see the enormous diplomatic gaffe in which it could be seen to be implicated?  Why is the online text so very much at odds with the news report and with what the Metropolitan claimed the Patriarch's speech contained?
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« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2008, 01:02:40 AM »

HUH?

Rome (AsiaNews) – "A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome."


Note the main points of the Patriarch's address:

1) Catholic-Orthodox unity needed to face the challenges of the modern world

2) the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church


The article then continues:

"They [Catholic-Orthodox unity and Russia's isolation] are also the main thrust in Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas’ comments to AsiaNews about the patriarch’s speech. For the latter the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church is one of “conservatism,” showing an inability to meet “the challenges of the modern world."

Now I have to agree that it is most strange that the news report says that the matter of the Russian Church's self-isolation was one of the two main points of the presentation by the EP.  Yet the text which is now on the Web says not one word about this!!

It is doubly strange that the Metropolitan confirms that the Russian self-isolation was one of the major "thrusts" of the EP's speech.  And yet again, it does not even exist in the text of the speech which is on the web.

Something is awry.

Has the online speech been edited so as not to offend the Russians?  Did His Divine All-Holines realise he may have stepped over the line and virtually declared war on a sister Church from the precincts of the Vatican?   Did the Vatican immediately see the enormous diplomatic gaffe in which it could be seen to be implicated?  Why is the online text so very much at odds with the news report and with what the Metropolitan claimed the Patriarch's speech contained?

It is also possible that the author of the article in question inferred that the EP made Russia a point in his speech based on the comments of the Metropolitan John.  I've seen journalistic error such as that before, and not as infrequently as I'd like.

Whether the Patriarch made such comments or not, I do know from my visit to the Phanar that the Patriarchate does take seriously its relationship with Moscow.  Some of the Patriarchal staff were specially chosen for their ability to speak Russian in order to communicate with Moscow more effectively, and one of the deacons that we visited had spent a lot of time communicating (in person and correspondence) with the MP.  Despite what we think, I seriously doubt that either one wants to alienate the other.  However, it is a time-honored practice (even in Church relationships) to use third parties to convey messages even when one is in direct communication with the target audience - this has been a method of princes, patriarchs, and paupers for a long time.  It wouldn't surprise me if comments were made without the intention of seeming hostile, but with the intention of "stirring the pot," so to speak.  However, since the supposed comments of the Patriarch that are alluded to by the article do not seem to appear in the text of the speech, this is idle conjecture on my part - although my speculation would be as applicable to the seemingly straightforward comments of Metropolitan John.
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« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2008, 01:05:38 AM »

HUH?

Rome (AsiaNews) – "A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome."


Note the main points of the Patriarch's address:

1) Catholic-Orthodox unity needed to face the challenges of the modern world

2) the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church


The article then continues:

"They [Catholic-Orthodox unity and Russia's isolation] are also the main thrust in Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas’ comments to AsiaNews about the patriarch’s speech. For the latter the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church is one of “conservatism,” showing an inability to meet “the challenges of the modern world."

Now I have to agree that it is most strange that the news report says that the matter of the Russian Church's self-isolation was one of the two main points of the presentation by the EP.  Yet the text which is now on the Web says not one word about this!!

It is doubly strange that the Metropolitan confirms that the Russian self-isolation was one of the major "thrusts" of the EP's speech.  And yet again, it does not even exist in the text of the speech which is on the web.

Something is awry.

Has the online speech been edited so as not to offend the Russians?  Did His Divine All-Holines realise he may have stepped over the line and virtually declared war on a sister Church from the precincts of the Vatican?   Did the Vatican immediately see the enormous diplomatic gaffe in which it could be seen to be implicated?  Why is the online text so very much at odds with the news report and with what the Metropolitan claimed the Patriarch's speech contained?
Or maybe the news report from your "reputable" news source lied and attributed to the EP words he never spoke.  Either way, there is certainly something fishy about these conflicting accounts.
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« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2008, 01:14:14 AM »

Complete text of Bartholomew's lecture at the "Pontifical Oriental Institute" 

On an unrelated note (and please, don't read any hostile intent into my question - there isn't any): why do you keep putting Pontifical Oriental Institute in quotation marks?  It is a proper name of said institute, not some sort of nickname.  Heck, it is a premiere institute for studying the Liturgy at the very least (this is the extent of my exposure to those who are at or came from the Institute).

Or maybe the news report from your "reputable" news source lied and attributed to the EP words he never spoke.  Either way, there is certainly something fishy about these conflicting accounts. 

I'm not finding any reason to consider AsiaNews a reputable and independent news source.  Of course, it should be stated and emphasized that criticism of the source should not be taken as criticism of any users here quoting the source or relying on it; far from it.  If it's the only source, then that's what we have to work with.  However, if AsiaNews and the Pontifical Oriental Institute are reporting different things about the Patriarch's speech, I'll trust the Institute over AsiaNews any day, since the Institute has (at least to me) proven itself to be an esteemed establishment for higher learning.
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« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2008, 01:29:55 AM »

I'm not finding any reason to consider AsiaNews a reputable and independent news source..... However, if AsiaNews and the Pontifical Oriental Institute are reporting different things about the Patriarch's speech, I'll trust the Institute over AsiaNews any day,
AsiaNews.it is a publication of the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions so surely it has a little credence.  :-)
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« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2008, 03:38:53 AM »

Good point.  A Vatican-leaning news agency sees discord between Moscow and Constantinople and thinks it big news.  But can they grasp the fact that the two partiarchates have often been at odds with each other since the Russian Church dubbed Moscow the Third Rome several hundred years ago?  This isn't news to the Orthodox.  (FWIW, I don't mean to imply in my words that "Moscow:  Third Rome" theory is the sole reason for such discord between the EP and MP, for I see both sides blameworthy in their divisiveness.)

You make a good point, but i think as of now, the real tensions is over the diocese of Sourozh and the newly created Russian Tradition Ecumenical exarchate (or whatever the heck its called). I do believe a schism is coming, and its only a matter of time before the MP will sever ties with the EP.  The EP has been playing "brinkmanship" with Moscow and sooner or later  the straw will break the camels back.
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« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2008, 12:08:41 PM »

Yes, quite right.  As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion.  I wonder if his Catholic friends in Rome have ever realised that?

Well, if he were a Catholic patriarch, he would have been forced to retract that 1990 statement (if quoted accurately by the San Francisco newspaper). But he's EO, and the Ecumenical Patriarch to boot. Who else do we dialogue with?
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« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2008, 11:39:43 PM »

Please try and stay on topic everyone.  I just split the thread and put the new one
here.  If this thread goes off topic like this again, I may lock it.  Thanks.

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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2008, 07:00:39 PM »

Not really. Just look at the fruits.

Yes, jurisdiction fights in Estonia, stiring the pot in the Americas with sending Ligonier realing back and sending Spyridon to "set things right," capitulation at Ravenna, etc.  some fruits.
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« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2008, 08:19:12 PM »

Yes, jurisdiction fights in Estonia, stiring the pot in the Americas with sending Ligonier realing back and sending Spyridon to "set things right," capitulation at Ravenna, etc.  some fruits.
I think if you go back and read the context for ozgeorge's quote, you'll actually find that he was not talking about the EP's fruits; he was really referring to the fruits of a particular poster here.
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« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2008, 08:34:46 PM »

I think if you go back and read the context for ozgeorge's quote, you'll actually find that he was not talking about the EP's fruits; he was really referring to the fruits of a particular poster here.
*
Yes, this is true.  George was referring to me
Quote
George: It is yourself who has brought disgrace on Orthodoxy, her Priesthood and her Monasticism- not Patriarch Bartholemew.
*

But I see that I am not alone in my concerns about the actions of His Divine All-Holiness.  Others have brought up their concerns, the last of whom is ialmisry:
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ialmisry: Yes, jurisdiction fights in Estonia, stiring the pot in the Americas with sending Ligonier realing back and sending Spyridon to "set things right," capitulation at Ravenna, etc.  some fruits.



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« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2008, 06:41:38 AM »

*
Yes, this is true.  George was referring to me *

But I see that I am not alone in my concerns about the actions of His Divine All-Holiness.  Others have brought up their concerns, the last of whom is ialmisry:





Father a question when did this title come into existence his Divine all-holiness ...To me it dosen't sound right it sounds arrogant and pompous ,,it shows no humility....have there been any of our saints that were called anything similar while alive on earth...other then they calling them selfs extreme sinners or the worst of the worst as sign of them being very humble and holy.......oce blagoslovi...........stasko/stanislav
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« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2008, 08:33:41 AM »


Father a question when did this title come into existence his Divine all-holiness
*
I do not know the history of it, but "His Divine All-Holiness" is his correct title.  For some reason the "Divine" is not often used in English.

"Divine" in the title is the translation of Theiotatos" 

"H Autou Theiotatos Panagiotatos Bartholomeos A' "   (Hope I have the Greek right?)

His Divine All Holiness Bartholomew the First.

People should probably start to use his correct title.
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« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2008, 10:07:06 AM »

I guess the EP, who has about 2000 immediate followers, and whose selection has to be approved by the Turkish government (That IS right, isn't it?), is fighting for the very survival of the patriarchate any way he can.

It is also my understanding that the majority of Orthodox Christians are within the Slavic churches, and are not involved in most of the EP-Vatican stuff. So, the EP-Vatican efforts come across more as spin to me.

Even the Protestant sect, the Shakers, sang, "turn, turn, turn" , not spin, spin, spin. Smiley (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
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« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2008, 11:16:04 AM »

That is why we desire EO unity. No more Lyonses, Ferrara-Florences and Balamands, all of which just further divided the EO Churches.  Hopefully the Holy Father makes that visit to Patriarch Alexei soon.
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« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2008, 07:55:21 PM »

I guess the EP, who has about 2000 immediate followers,

"Followers"?....... He's not a guru. He is a Bishop.
The Oecumenical Patriarch has jurisdiction over the GO Churches of the Northern half of Greece, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, The United Kingdom etc as well as all the monasteries of the Holy Mountain.
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« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2008, 02:55:24 AM »

Ozgeorge is correct.  The majority of Eastern Orthodox believers in the United States are in fact part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in the USA, the Ukrainian Orthodox, EP, and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese are all part of the EP. 
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« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2008, 09:58:33 AM »

"Followers"?....... He's not a guru. He is a Bishop.
The Oecumenical Patriarch has jurisdiction over the GO Churches of the Northern half of Greece, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, The United Kingdom etc as well as all the monasteries of the Holy Mountain.

The fact remains that the majority of Orthodox Christians worldwide are not within any of the jurisdictions that commemorate him, regardless of his span of control as ecumenical patriarch, so a lot of what passes for progress between east and west, by way of the EP-Vatican meetings, ends up as just spin. A truly conciliar meeting could produce something different, assuming the Faithful (followers) agree.
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« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2008, 11:19:24 AM »

"Followers"?....... He's not a guru. He is a Bishop.
The Oecumenical Patriarch has jurisdiction over the GO Churches of the Northern half of Greece, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, The United Kingdom etc as well as all the monasteries of the Holy Mountain.

His jurisdiction is not uncontested in all of the above.
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« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2008, 11:42:23 AM »

The fact remains that the majority of Orthodox Christians worldwide are not within any of the jurisdictions that commemorate him, regardless of his span of control as ecumenical patriarch, so a lot of what passes for progress between east and west, by way of the EP-Vatican meetings, ends up as just spin. A truly conciliar meeting could produce something different, assuming the Faithful (followers) agree.

I know you're tying to make a good factual point, but accuracy on the details allows people to focus on your argument and less on the semantics.  To wit:

The fact remains that the majority of Orthodox Christians worldwide are not within any of the jurisdictions that commemorate him

The "jurisdictions that commemorate him" are the Autocephalous Churches of the Eastern Orthodox Church; just as the Jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate commemorates the Patriarchs of Moscow, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. - a "jurisdiction" commemorates through it's head, and they commemorate the other heads.

a lot of what passes for progress between east and west, by way of the EP-Vatican meetings, ends up as just spin. A truly conciliar meeting could produce something different, assuming the Faithful (followers) agree.

Now, as to your actual argument:

I don't think it is totally "spin."  There has been a definite shift in relations between, say, 1800 and the present, one that is present across the board.  So saying it's total "spin" is over-doing it a bit.  However, on the other hand, the negotiations of one bishop (even if it is the Ecumenical Patriarch) is meaningless if not ratified by a synod; even agreements made by the EP must be ratified by the Synod of Constantinople in order to be binding on the Churches of the Patriarchate - if there is no ratification, then the agreement is only binding on the immediate jurisdiction - i.e. Constantinople and Mt. Athos and the Stavropegial monasteries and parishes.  So, on that level, any dialogue, even if the MP is involved, is just "spin" until it is voted upon (the critical lesson of Florence).
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« Reply #82 on: March 15, 2008, 11:51:41 AM »

Thank you, Cleveland. I suppose only time will tell if the Ravenna conference, etc. has a wider impact than it may have on the immediate participants.
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« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2008, 12:14:27 PM »

Thank you, Cleveland. I suppose only time will tell if the Ravenna conference, etc. has a wider impact than it may have on the immediate participants.

Yeah.  I always try to look on the bright side, but cautious optimism should be the phrase of the day with regards to this.  Reunion is good, only if built on a foundation of true faith and worship; to paraphrase the Lord: "what good does it profit a Church to gain the whole world but to lose its soul?"
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« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2008, 01:10:58 PM »

His jurisdiction is not uncontested in all of the above.

?Evidence?
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« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2008, 01:36:10 PM »

His jurisdiction is not uncontested in all of the above. 

Well - the archdioceses within the Ecumenical Patriarchate are not contesting it, so yes, it is uncontested.  You're bringing up something which is not relevant to the conversation (i.e. interpretation of "barbarians," and whether the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sole jurisdiction over lands not granted explicitly to the other Patriarchates, and such).
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« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2008, 01:40:53 PM »

The fact remains that the majority of Orthodox Christians worldwide are not within any of the jurisdictions that commemorate him, regardless of his span of control as ecumenical patriarch, so a lot of what passes for progress between east and west, by way of the EP-Vatican meetings, ends up as just spin. A truly conciliar meeting could produce something different, assuming the Faithful (followers) agree.

Constantinople still maintains the Canonical Authority over the Church as well as diplomatic preeminence...saddly, political influence and authority has diminished since the fall of the Empire. She has tried to keep the Church together and inline using the authority she has and has done quite well, but with the rise of nationalistic churches in the 19th century the entire Orthodox communion has been placed in peril. Perhaps the best manoeuvre at this point would be to strengthen relations with the west, even at the expense of relations with the Russians and then, weilding greater political force, bring the Russians back into line. This is not to say that we should abandon our progress and embrace the kooky western notions of sin, fear of sex, and anti-science hysteria...but who knows, perhaps we can influence the west to abandon these things helping bring progress and enlightenment to everyone in the process.
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« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2008, 02:23:37 PM »

Constantinople still maintains the Canonical Authority over the Church
Last I saw, the Orthodox have no pope.
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« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2008, 03:53:22 PM »

?Evidence?

For one thing, the existence of churches belonging to other autocephalous Churches in all of the named places.
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« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2008, 04:03:54 PM »

Constantinople still maintains the Canonical Authority over the Church as well as diplomatic preeminence...saddly, political influence and authority has diminished since the fall of the Empire. She has tried to keep the Church together and inline using the authority she has and has done quite well, but with the rise of nationalistic churches in the 19th century the entire Orthodox communion has been placed in peril. Perhaps the best manoeuvre at this point would be to strengthen relations with the west, even at the expense of relations with the Russians and then, weilding greater political force, bring the Russians back into line. This is not to say that we should abandon our progress and embrace the kooky western notions of sin, fear of sex, and anti-science hysteria...but who knows, perhaps we can influence the west to abandon these things helping bring progress and enlightenment to everyone in the process.

Spoken like a true gentile, on all points.
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« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2008, 04:29:33 PM »

For one thing, the existence of churches belonging to other autocephalous Churches in all of the named places. 

Again, as I pointed out before, this has nothing to do with what was being discussed - and now you've drawn GiC into your tangent.
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« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2008, 05:43:38 PM »

Last I saw, the Orthodox have no pope.

Well, actually we do, his throne is the ancient and venerable see of Alexandria. But in terms of canonical authority, he is second to our Oecumenical Patriarch.
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« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2008, 06:33:25 PM »

Isn't there more than one pope in Alexandria?
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« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2008, 06:46:26 PM »

Isn't there more than one pope in Alexandria?
The Vatican will not allow the Eastern Rite Patriarch there to use the title of Pope.
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« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2008, 11:03:16 PM »

The Vatican will not allow the Eastern Rite Patriarch there to use the title of Pope.

I think he means the Coptic Patriarch.
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« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2008, 04:05:46 PM »

Yes. Coptic. Historically, they're the oldest in Alexandria. Pope Shenouda.
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« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2008, 03:20:31 PM »

That is why we desire EO unity. No more Lyonses, Ferrara-Florences and Balamands, all of which just further divided the EO Churches. 

The Balamand Statement may have its faults; nevertheless, to my mind it is categorically different than Lyons and Ferrara-Florence.

Hopefully the Holy Father makes that visit to Patriarch Alexei soon.

I hope for that as well.

-Peter.
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« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2008, 11:10:20 PM »

The title of 'Pope' has been in continuous use for the Patriarch of Alexandria since about 240 a.d. first used for Pope Heraclas of Alexandria.  Pope Shenouda is the Coptic pope of Alexandria while Pope Theodoros is the Greek Orthodox pope of Alexandria.

I'm almost positive that the imposter Coptic Catholic Patriarch Antonios Naguib does not, nor is allowed to use 'pope' for himself based on strict orders from his boss; Pope of Rome .


EDIT:  Derogatory 'U' word replaced with less insulting reference to Catholic Copts...  IOW, please don't use the 'U' word in reference to our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters.  -PtA
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ialmisry
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« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2008, 12:55:08 PM »

The title of 'Pope' has been in continuous use for the Patriarch of Alexandria since about 240 a.d. first used for Pope Heraclas of Alexandria.  Pope Shenouda is the Coptic pope of Alexandria while Pope Theodoros is the Greek Orthodox pope of Alexandria.

I'm almost positive that the imposter Coptic Catholic Patriarch Antonios Naguib does not, nor is allowed to use 'pope' for himself based on strict orders from his boss; Pope of Rome .

Yes, you are correct on that, nor can the Melkite Patriarch who is also Melkite Patriarch of Alexandria use it, nor the Latin one who was abolished (Latin Copts do exist).  Their church is not big enough for two Popes, unlike the Early Church.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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