EP & Met. Zizioulas Slam The Russian Orthodox Church As They Meet In Rome

[Irish Hermit]

03/06/2008 20:46

VATICAN - ORTHODOX

Orthodox and Catholics together to respond to the world's challenges, says
Bartholomew I
by NAT da Polis

http://www.asianews.it/main.php?l=en

The ecumenical patriarch delivers a masterful inaugural lecture for the 90th
anniversary of the Pontifical Oriental Institute. Metropolitan of Pergamon
Ioannis Zizioulas talks about the isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church
who, in name of tradition, finds itself unable to face the modern world.


Rome (AsiaNews) - A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way
to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the
self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points
Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to
the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome. They are also the main thrust in
Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas' comments to AsiaNews about the
patriarch's speech. For the latter the attitude of the Russian Orthodox
Church is one of "conservatism," showing an inability to meet "the
challenges of the modern world."

Bartholomew I was invited to Rome for the 90th anniversary of the Institute,
an institution that includes the well-known Faculties of Eastern Church
Studies and Eastern Canon Law.

The Patriarch spoke about what the Orthodox Church expects from this
institution as service to the contemporary world. In his inaugural lecture
titled Theology, Liturgy, and Silence - Fundamental Insights from the
Eastern Fathers for the Modern World, he stressed the importance to the
theology of the great Fathers of the Church, those of the united Church of
the first millennium, whose spirit lives on as a solid basis for the
document elaborated in Ravenna, which is the Sister Churches' response to
the challenges of the contemporary world.

What word of salvation can the Eastern Church's theology bring to the modern
world? To this initial question, Bartholomew answered by starting with
Patristic theology, explaining that such a theology cannot be reduced to a
structured system of truth, but is on the contrary the light and grace of
the Holy Spirit which gives life to the whole Church and thus "rejuvenates
the entire world."

A theology that is cut off from Church and society is "a sterile study of
doctrinal formulations, rather than a deifying vision of conviction and
commitment, capable of transforming the whole world."

During the Age of Byzantium, so reviled because misunderstood, when
religious live encompassed every aspect of secular life, when "[t]heological
culture embraced every aspect," he said, every "manifestation, activity,
institution, intuition, and literary achievement in Byzantine society [. .
.] the Church Fathers were primarily pastors, not philosophers. They were
concerned first with reforming the human heart and transforming society, not
with refining concepts or resolving controversies." For the patriarch the
fundamental aspects of Patristic thought can enlighten theology in the modem
age.

Liturgy

First of all, the Fathers of the Church never saw theology as a monopoly of
the professional academic or the official hierarchy. Theology, Bartholomew I
noted, was a communal experience or as St Paul put it, a way "to bring to
light [for all] what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in
 God" (Eph, 3:9). Again this background it is the Church which guarantees
the Apostolic Age's normative continuity, from Patristic times till now. And
when the Church prays as a liturgical assembly it is truly itself.

Thanks to this liturgical aspect Eastern Christians were given courage under
the Ottoman Empire and more recently under post-Revolutionary Russia. "This
profound sense of community must, therefore, also characterize our
theological perception of the world today. This means that no individual can
ever exhaust the fullness of truth in isolation from others, outside the
communion of saints."

The Patriarch also spoke about Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. "With regard to
fraternal relations among our Sister Churches, [if] the two lungs of the
Eastern and Western Churches [. . .] must breathe in harmony, [n]either
should assume provocative initiatives-whether unilaterally or universally-in
its ministry to God's people."

Finally, "[w]e urge you to serve the theological word by breathing the air
of theology and kneeling humbly before the living Creator", Bartholomew
said, invitng the Pontifical Oriental Institute to "play a decisive role in
the rapprochement between the East and the West."

Russian Orthodoxy's insularity

The Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas, an eminent Orthodox
theologian, spoke with AsiaNews about the difficult ecumenical path with the
Russian Orthodox Church. This comes just a day after a representative of the
Moscow Patriarchate advised Orthodox believers not to pray with members of
other Christian confessions.

"In the Eastern Church, especially in the Russian Church, there is a degree
of insularity that leads to conservatism. There is an inability to face the
challenges of the modern world, with tradition as an excuse," Metropolitan
Ioannis said.

The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today, said that "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition. Tradition as the Christian Church's
message does not mean doing nothing; instead it contains truth's momentum
and does not fear the challenge of the contemporary world."

[Anastasios]

Ziziloulas at it again. ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[orthodoxlurker]

..., an eminent Orthodox
theologian, spoke with AsiaNews about the ...

To me, this is becoming unbearable.

Please, pray for me.

[prodromos]

The Patriarch also spoke about Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. "With regard to
fraternal relations among our Sister Churches, [if] the two lungs of the
Eastern and Western Churches [. . .] must breathe in harmony, [n]either
should assume provocative initiatives-whether unilaterally or universally-in
its ministry to God's people."

Ugh! The EP needs to revisit the talk he gave declaring our ontological differences with Rome and steer clear of this nonsense.

"In the Eastern Church, especially in the Russian Church, there is a degree
of insularity that leads to conservatism. There is an inability to face the
challenges of the modern world, with tradition as an excuse," Metropolitan
Ioannis said.

Is it me, or is Metr. Zizioulas sounding more and more like so many Catholic apologists? I'll take the MP's 'inability to face the challenges of the modern world' over Metr. Zizioulas' supposed 'ability' any day.

The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today, said that "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition. Tradition as the Christian Church's
message does not mean doing nothing; instead it contains truth's momentum
and does not fear the challenge of the contemporary world."

What does that mean, "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition"? Sounds a bit unorthodox to me, but then I'm not a theologian.

John

[ialmisry]

Ugh! The EP needs to revisit the talk he gave declaring our ontological differences with Rome and steer clear of this nonsense.

Is it me, or is Metr. Zizioulas sounding more and more like so many Catholic apologists? I'll take the MP's 'inability to face the challenges of the modern world' over Metr. Zizioulas' supposed 'ability' any day.

What does that mean, "the true value of tradition is only reached
when we can reshape our tradition"? Sounds a bit unorthodox to me, but then I'm not a theologian.

Since they are in Rome, didn't they notice the scramble to undo the chaos of the reshaping of tradition a la Vatican II, out of which Rome is only now emerging?

As for facing the modern world, New Rome is not the capital of a Christian empire, its the captive of an aggresively secular Muslim one.  The EP is repeating the mistakes of Old Rome when it sunk into obscurity during the Dark Ages, resulting in 1054.

[Irish Hermit]

To me, this is becoming unbearable.

Please, pray for me.

Lurker,

I also found it unbearable when I read it.

For those who enjoy the politics of the Church and the ongoing Moscow-Constantinople stand-off, this will be great entertainment.

For those who love the Church and wish her to dwell in peace and love, this is simply a misery.

How unthinkable that the EP and Zizioulas should launch this attack on the Russian Church from the precincts of the Vatican!    How the Vatican must be enthralled with the antics and the petty vindictiveness of these two men, one of them supposedly the spiritual leader of all the world's Orthodox.

Even if the Pope is a man of the utmost integrity he must have felt a small frisson of delight to see the Moscow-Constantinople problem get ratcheted up several more notches.

It is obvious that the EP is trying to capitalise on the contretemps which developed at Ravenna last October with the Russians.  He is trying to ingratiate himself with the Pope and the Vatican.   How the Catholics must despise these two men, even as they will use them and shower praises on them.

The sooner Bartholomew and Zizioulas accept a cardinal's hat from the Supreme Pontiff and take up residence in Rome the better.

I apologise for my words if they seem strong.  I am deeply wounded by this Greek attack on the Russian Church.  I am deeply wounded by the bad impressions this will give everybody about the Orthodox Church and its unity and about the quality of our leaders.  I am deeply wounded by the thought that the EP and Zizioulas have enflamed the existing wounds between Moscow and Constantinople.

[prodromos]

Amen Father, I couldn't agree more.

John

[orthodoxlurker]

...

Thank you Father, I did start feeling a relief.

It seems Patriarch Bartholomew has not mentioned Russians at all, it was Mrt. Zlizlous who did it.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801277.htm

[ozgeorge]

How unthinkable that the EP and Zizioulas should launch this attack on the Russian Church from the precincts of the Vatican!   

About as unthinkable as an Orthodox Priest slandering the Ecumenical Patriarch....
News for you father, His All Holiness didn't do what you claimed, nor is Metropolitan Zizoulas in Rome.
So can we expect a retraction, an apology?
Nah...guess not.
What an interesting Lent you lot observe.

[observer]

reshape our tradition  Watch this phrase during 2008.

[Heracleides]

OzGeorge:

To quote the news article in speaking of Zizioulas: "The prelate, who accompanied the Patriarch Bartholomew to Rome where he met
Benedict XVI today..."

Certainly sounds like Zizioulas was in Rome with Bartholomew to me. So George, when... "...can we expect a retraction, an apology?" from you ?  

***

Fr. Ambrose:

Quote: "The sooner Bartholomew and Zizioulas accept a cardinal's hat from the Supreme Pontiff and take up residence in Rome the better."


Couldn't have said it better myself.

[orthodoxlurker]

Certainly sounds like Zizioulas was in Rome with Bartholomew to me.

Actually, I went over the article again and, after reading ozgeorge's complaint, there are some vagueness. Is Metr. Zizloulas in Rome, or if he had just spoke with the reporter while was accompanying the Patriarch during a previous visit?

We had an opportunity in Serbia to witness false agency report about the words of one of Serbian Metropolitans yesterday.

[Heracleides]

If the last two paragraphs of the news article are accurate, then Zizioulas was indeed in Rome with Bartholomew on this latest escapade.

Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for George's apology for slandering an Orthodox priest, during Lent, etc., etc.

[orthodoxlurker]

If the last two paragraphs of the news article are accurate, then Zizioulas was indeed in Rome with Bartholomew on this latest escapade.

Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for George's apology for slandering an Orthodox priest, during Lent, etc., etc.

Well, we are speaking about if that might tear as apart.

It's curious the report is in asia times while the visit, as covered by European reports, and words of Patriarch Bartholomew, have been  business as usual. Metr Zizloulas' words got a bit more poison on the arrows than the last time...

[Heracleides]

Speaking of this latest escapade... looks like it has produced more "spirit of Ravenna" fruit:

Bartholomew invited by the pope to participate in the synod of bishops

(http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11708&size=A)

» 03/07/2008 13:13
VATICAN
by NAT da Polis
In the "spirit of Ravenna", the ecumenical patriarch will take part in the meeting of the world's Catholic bishops, scheduled to take place in October on the theme "The word of God in the life and mission of the Church".


Vatican City (AsiaNews) - Benedict XVI has invited ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew to take part in the upcoming synod of bishops, scheduled for October, and to give an address to the assembly, together with the pope himself.

The news of the invitation, not yet released by Vatican sources, comes at the conclusion of Bartholomew's visit to Rome for the 90th anniversary of the Pontifical Oriental Institute, during which he met with the pope.  The invitation to attend the synod came during lunch yesterday.  In itself, the presence of representatives of other Christian Churches and confessions is a normal practice for synod assemblies, ever since Vatican Council II invited the "fraternal delegations".  What makes this event significant is the personal invitation extended to Bartholomew, the solemnity reserved for this, and the atmosphere in which it took place.

In regard to the meeting between Benedict XVI in Bartholomew, there has in fact been talk of the "spirit of Ravenna", meaning the meeting of the "Mixed international commission for theological dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church" held in Ravenna from October 8-14, 2007.  The final document of the meeting - although it was released by a commission, and is therefore not binding - was described as "an important step forward" by Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the pontifical council for Christian unity, although "the road to full unity is still a very long one".

The document, Cardinal Kasper explains to Vatican Radio, "speaks of the tension between authority and conciliarity, or collegiality, at the local level, meaning that of the diocese, and at the regional and universal level.  The important step is that for the first time the Orthodox Churches have told us yes, there exists this universal level of the Church, and there is also conciliarity, collegiality, and authority at the universal level; this means that there is also a Primacy: according to the practice of the ancient Church, the first bishop is the bishop of Rome, there is no doubt of this.  But we did not speak of what the privileges of the bishop of Rome are, we only indicated the praxis for the sake of future discussions".

But the ecumenical patriarch will not only be present at the 12th general ordinary assembly of the synod of bishops that will be held at the Vatican from October 5-26, 2008, on the theme of "The word of God in life and mission of the Church".  It seems, in fact, that Bartholomew could personally lead the delegation that the patriarchate sends to Rome every June 29th to take part in the celebration of the feast of Saint Peter and Paul.

***

Perhaps he will be getting that Cardinal's hat sooner than one might expect. 

[Irish Hermit]

News for you father, His All Holiness didn't do what you claimed,

The article says these things:

"A great love for Catholic-Orthodox unity as the only way to face the challenges of the modern world and a profound sadness for the self-imposed isolation of the Russian Orthodox Church are the main points Ecumenical Greek-Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I raised in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome."

Notice that the Russian Church was one of the Patriarch's two main points with his address.

"They are also the main thrust in Metropolitan of Pergamon Ioannis Zizioulas' comments to AsiaNews about the patriarch's speech.

His Divine All-Holiness Bartholomew initiated the attack on the Russian Orthodox Church as one of the main points in his address to the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome.  Met. Zizioulas picked it up and handed it to the Press in his comments about the Patriarch's speech.

nor is Metropolitan Zizoulas in Rome.

I see others have replied to this.

So can we expect a retraction, an apology?
Nah...guess not.

No! No apology.  It is His Divine All-Holiness who should be apologising to the Church for disgracing the Orthodox world and for intentionally exacerbating the stress between Moscow and Constantinople.

[MatthewP]

Dear Ozgeorge,

There is no reason to take such a tone with Father Ambrose. Many of us know him to be one of the most kind and charitable Priests we have ever met, thanks be to God.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

 Duplicate Account; user is also registered here under MatthewPanchisin

[ozgeorge]

There is no reason to take such a tone with Father Ambrose. 

I'm not a groupie. Nor have I raised him to guru status.

Many of us know him to be one of the most kind and charitable Priests we have ever met, thanks be to God.

Obviously, you need to meet more priests.

[Irish Hermit]

I'm not a groupie. Nor have I raised him to guru status.

Obviously, you need to meet more priests.

George,

I think this is awfully unfair.  After all, I reported His Divine All-Holiness accurately.  But you did not read accurately and you then attacked me unfairly.

[ozgeorge]

George,

I think this is awfully unfair.  After all, I reported His Divine All-Holiness accurately.  But you did not read accurately and you then attacked me unfairly.

No. What you're doing is gossiping based on a series of articles which never once quote His All Holiness in any way which supports your claim.

Sorry, I fail to see gossip as befitting either priests or monastics.

It is yourself who has brought disgrace on Orthodoxy, her Priesthood and her Monasticism- not Patriarch Bartholemew.

[Elisha]

It is yourself who has brought disgrace on Orthodoxy, her Priesthood and her Monasticism- not Patriarch Bartholemew.

Now, THAT seems like pure conjecture.

[ozgeorge]

Now, THAT seems like pure conjecture.

Not really. Just look at the fruits.

[Irish Hermit]

No. What you're doing is gossiping based on a series of articles which never once quote His All Holiness in any way which supports your claim.

It's possible that the article is a bunch of lies or that Zizioulas was lying to the reporter about what His Divine All-Holiness said.  One or the other must be true. Is that what you are saying?  Go back and read it again.

[ozgeorge]

It's possible that the article is a bunch of lies or that Zizioulas was lying to the reporter about what His Divine All-Holiness said.  One or the other must be true. Is that what you are saying?  Go back and read it again.

I suggest you read the article again yourself.
His All Holiness is quoted several times in it. Yet not one quote from the Patriarch supports the claim that he denigrated the Russian Patriarch. Did you ever stop to question why? No. Because you wanted to rush in to be first to insult, slander and denigrate the Oecumenical Patriarch. "Kind and charitable people" are not quick to publically insult, slander condemn others on the flimsy basis of a media article which can't even quote the person to support it's claim. So no, I don't think what I said was "unfair"- it is an accurate assesment based on more evidence than your claims about His All Holiness.

[Riddikulus]

I suggest you read the article again yourself.
His All Holiness is quoted several times in it. Yet not one quote from the Patriarch supports the claim that he denigrated the Russian Patriarch. Did you ever stop to question why? No. Because you wanted to rush in to be first to insult, slander and denigrate the Oecumenical Patriarch. "Kind and charitable people" are not quick to publically insult, slander condemn others on the flimsy basis of a media article which can't even quote the person to support it's claim. So no, I don't think what I said was "unfair"- it is an accurate assesment based on more evidence than your claims about His All Holiness.

Hear, hear!

[Irish Hermit]

Hear, hear!

As I say, it is possible that either the newspaper lied or that Metr. Zizioulas lied to the newspaper.   Both are unlikely.  This is a high quality Roman Catholic paper headquartered in Rome and run by the Pontifical Institute for Foreign Missions.  It reports on Catholic religious news in "Asia" (which for their purposes includes Russia.)

http://www.asianews.it/

I suppose that the Russian Church has become so accustomed to interference from Constantinople over the last few decades that it is inclined to give credence to this report. 

[PeterTheAleut]

As I say, it is possible that either the newspaper lied or that Metr. Zizioulas lied to the newspaper.

Part of the issue I see is that you're presenting to us not only the news article, but also your commentary on the news article.  Frankly, I just don't see much in the text of the article itself to support much of your interpretation of it.

[ozgeorge]

It reports on Catholic religious news in "Asia" (which for their purposes includes Russia.)

I see. So you source your "news" from the asian version of "Zenit News Agency" (of which "asianews.it" is an affiliate according to their own website). The RC propaganda machine is your idea impartiality I guess.
I guess it never occurred to you that it is in the interests of RC propaganda to cause division between the EP and the MP. If it's on the internet in print, it must be the correct and impartial version of facts.

"Turn off the windscreen wipers. They don't work; they're only making it worse."

[Heracleides]

Silly me... the Roman propaganda machine is to blame 

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.

[Irish Hermit]

Part of the issue I see is that you're presenting to us not only the news article, but also your commentary on the news article.

I believe my commentary is borne out by what is stated in the newspaper.

Everybody has a commentary.  Your denial of my commentary constitutes *your* commentary. 

[Irish Hermit]

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.

Since it is agitating a worthless worm of a monk in New Zealand they had better start denying it quick smart. I cannot sleep at night with the thought that the Patriarch and Zizioulas have attacked my Church.

[ozgeorge]

Silly me... the Roman propaganda machine is to blame 

No. Silly you for using RC propaganda as your source of information, and making yourself look bad.
"Oh, the EP is leading us into a new false union with Rome, and here is an infallible article from a Vatican news source to prove it".

I wonder when Bartholomew and Zizioulas will get around to disavowing this fabricated Catholic news article.

Perhaps being monks they spend their time in prayer instead of gossiping on the internet.

[PeterTheAleut]

I believe my commentary is borne out by what is stated in the newspaper.

As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published.

[Riddikulus]

Unless any of us were present to hear His All Holiness's words, we are merely repeating media blurb. Without the full story, we are resorting to gossip, ill-informed conjecture and possibly slander. Not a good look for Lent.

And this isn't the first time that the EP has been insulted on this forum on the grounds of media hearsay and incomplete reporting. Perhaps tempers should have longer fuses, and a little thought and prayerful consideration entered into before fingers start typing.

[Riddikulus]

As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published.

My thoughts, exactly.

[ozgeorge]

Since it is agitating a worthless worm of a monk in New Zealand they had better start denying it quick smart. I cannot sleep at night with the thought that the Patriarch and Zizioulas have attacked my Church.

Denying what? You still haven't told us what the Patriarch said to stir such righteous anger in you.

Lets see. The image source code for this smiley is "forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yikes.gif". Even your smileys have to be sourced from the Catholics.

[Irish Hermit]

As I would expect to read from someone who had already expressed his disdain for the EP weeks before this article was published.

Yes, quite right.  As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion.  I wonder if his Catholic friends in Rome have ever realised that?

[PeterTheAleut]

As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion.

And one wonders if he's even that, but we already hashed that out in another thread, so I won't go into it again here.

[ozgeorge]

I wonder if his Catholic friends in Rome have ever realised that?

Why don't you ask your Catholic friends at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency ?

[Irish Hermit]

Denying what? You still haven't told us what the Patriarch said to stir such righteous anger in you.
Lets see. The image source code for this smiley is "forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/ani_yikes.gif". Even your smileys have to be sourced from the Catholics.

Well, the Moderators did say they were going to do something about upgrading the smileys on this Forum.....

As for sourcing it from the Catholics... I came here after spending several years on Catholic Answers Forum. So I have a collection of the smileys they use. They are not *their* smilies - they have sourced them from various other sources. 

As you know most of the Orthodox were booted out of there in November last year.  While I was on that Forum quite a number of Catholics investigated Orthodoxy and were eventually received.  I make no apologies for having been there.

[Irish Hermit]

Why don't you ask your Catholic friends at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency ?

Isn't this getting a bit silly?  When have I said that the people at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency are my friends?

[Riddikulus]

As you know, I have zero respect for this Patriarch because of his pro-choice stance on abortion. 

You are convinced that the EP is pro-choice because of the abridged media statment you provided this forum? Quite frankly, Father, I am shocked that it takes so little for your respect to go to zero.

[ozgeorge]

Isn't this getting a bit silly? 

"Getting" silly? The opening post was silly.

When have I said that the people at asianews.it and Zenit News Agency are my friends?

Well, you're willing to trust and believe in them aren't you?
I ask again: What particular words of the Patriarch aroused your righteous and impartial anger?

[Irish Hermit]

You are convinced that the EP is pro-choice because of the abridged media statment you provided this forum? Quite frankly, Father, I am shocked that it takes so little for your respect to go to zero.

Well, I would think that a pro-choice Patriarch would be enough to condemn him in itself without any other causes

See
"Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion" (written by a priest under the Ecumenical Throne)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf

But my disillusionment with him spreads across a whole spectrum...

His excommunication of the Jerusalem Patriarch at the time of the Australian upset, his interference in Estonia, the unlawful acceptance of Bishop Basil Osbourne, his interference and role in creating the mess in the Ukraine.

As for complaining that I lack respect for him...  I refer you to the statements made by his monks on the Holy Mountain.

[ozgeorge]

Get back to me when you decide to answer my question:

I ask again: What particular words of the Patriarch aroused your righteous and impartial anger?

While you do your google search to find what the Patriarch actually said, I'm off to the Vigil.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Free-For-All > Religious Topics (Moderator: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)) > Topic: EP & Met. Zizioulas Slam The Russian Orthodox Church As They Meet In Rome