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Author Topic: Usury is sinful?  (Read 21140 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tzimis
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2008, 11:18:51 PM »

You don't have a savings account?
 
I live in NYC. Starting Home prices in the suburbs start at about 600k. Do you have a savings account to buy it out right?
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2008, 11:19:20 PM »

I wonder where Christ's advice to one of His servants fits in here:

Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the {e} bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? -Luke 19:23

Perhaps, I think the usury of the Bible is concerned more with charging exorbitant amounts of interest or exploitation and taking advantage of the poor, I suppose who are usually going to be the ones who are in debt and in need of borrowing.
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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2008, 11:25:37 PM »

I wonder where Christ's advice to one of His servants fits in here:

Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the {e} bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? -Luke 19:23

Perhaps, I think the usury of the Bible is concerned more with charging exorbitant amounts of interest or exploitation and taking advantage of the poor, I suppose who are usually going to be the ones who are in debt and in need of borrowing.

But this is not an advice that Christ gives to His disciples, to give money to the "bank." He just tells a story, a parable, where the main hero is some king (maybe a pagan king). And the meaning of this parable, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with charging interest on the loaned money - it's about a person's spiritual growth.
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« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2008, 11:33:04 PM »

But this is not an advice that Christ gives to His disciples, to give money to the "bank." He just tells a story, a parable, where the main hero is some king (maybe a pagan king). And the meaning of this parable, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with charging interest on the loaned money - it's about a person's spiritual growth.

I quite agree with you that Christ's advice here is not literal and that it's not financial counsel which Christ seeks to give here but rather spiritual. However, I doubt very much that Christ would contradict His own commandments in order to deliver some spiritual message. Perhaps, then we are to understand the commandment somewhat differently rather than as some kind of absolute prohibition. Very often it's the middle way, avoiding extremes, which scripture is really pointing to.
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« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2008, 11:36:09 PM »

Right, but right here on this forum, people spend time and eloquence condemning those who fornicate, and yet nobody spends nearly as much time and eloquence condemning those (beginning from our very beloved selves) who partake in usury. Meanwhile, usury is as much a gross sin and insult to God as fornication is.
Not that I doubt you, dear brother, it's just that I've never heard this before in such an absolute manner like I'm used to hearing about fornication.
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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2008, 11:36:44 PM »

But this is not an advice that Christ gives to His disciples, to give money to the "bank." He just tells a story, a parable, where the main hero is some king (maybe a pagan king). And the meaning of this parable, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with charging interest on the loaned money - it's about a person's spiritual growth.
Let us assume that you have never barrowed a penny. When you pay taxes you are paying towards a deficit. You are funding a loan payment to the world bank. You're just as guilty. Does Christ tell us not to pay taxes?
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« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2008, 11:43:11 PM »

Let us assume that you have never barrowed a penny. When you pay taxes you are paying towards a deficit. You are funding a loan payment to the world bank. You're just as guilty.

But of course I am. And when people are supporting the war machine that supports the absolute power of corporations over the whole wide world, or when they are electing mass murderers to the White House... they are as guilty. And I am as guilty, too. A lot more than a couple that loves each other and has great sex without tying a stupid "knot," I guess.
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« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2008, 11:44:50 PM »

I quite agree with you that Christ's advice here is not literal and that it's not financial counsel which Christ seeks to give here but rather spiritual. However, I doubt very much that Christ would contradict His own commandments in order to deliver some spiritual message. Perhaps, then we are to understand the commandment somewhat differently rather than as some kind of absolute prohibition. Very often it's the middle way, avoiding extremes, which scripture is really pointing to.

How about His words in another parable about hacking a guy to pieces? Is that a tacit approval of this kind of punishment, too?
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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2008, 12:09:44 AM »

But of course I am. And when people are supporting the war machine that supports the absolute power of corporations over the whole wide world, or when they are electing mass murderers to the White House... they are as guilty. And I am as guilty, too. A lot more than a couple that loves each other and has great sex without tying a stupid "knot," I guess.

Fornication isn't the same thing. One can be married and fornicate. Fornication before marriage is also wrong. If it doesn't work out to become marriage the damage is hurtful to the next relationship that works out to be meaningful. Sex is used as an expression of eros. How special is it when it's given to many. If it works out than glory to god. But if it doesn't, that is where the problem is. It is our duty as parents to guide our children.
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2008, 01:48:24 AM »

How about His words in another parable about hacking a guy to pieces? Is that a tacit approval of this kind of punishment, too?

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I'm familiar with any parable which refers to the things you mention above and which in return Christ praises those who committed such actions. If you have a reference I'd be interested in giving it more thought. Thanks
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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2008, 02:22:04 AM »

I live in NYC. Starting Home prices in the suburbs start at about 600k. Do you have a savings account to buy it out right?

Ummm...I think he asked if you had a savings account because you get interest on a saving's account; heck, you get interest on some checking accounts. If you have either one of these you are guilty of the sin of usury. If you have credit cards you may not be directly guilty of usury, but you are guilty of making another fall into this sin...so if you do so without absolute necessity, you are culpable. There are also various bonds, CD's, etc. that give interest...ownership of these would be usurious. And as for owning a home, I guess you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it when you must force your lender into the sin of usury inorder to buy one?
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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2008, 10:25:57 AM »

Ummm...I think he asked if you had a savings account because you get interest on a saving's account; heck, you get interest on some checking accounts. If you have either one of these you are guilty of the sin of usury. If you have credit cards you may not be directly guilty of usury, but you are guilty of making another fall into this sin...so if you do so without absolute necessity, you are culpable. There are also various bonds, CD's, etc. that give interest...ownership of these would be usurious. And as for owning a home, I guess you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it when you must force your lender into the sin of usury inorder to buy one?
I didn't know a corporation can be held accountable for a sin. Yes Father, Citibank is here for there confession. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2008, 10:43:13 AM »

Fornication is a sin towards a future husband or wife. In Orthodoxy time is irrelevant. We have to look at it from the all perspectives. Lets use a theoretical wife as an example.
When my wife was 4 she had long brown hair down to her legs, when she was 5 she learned to ride a bike, when she was 10 she had a birthday party, when she was 18 she graduated high School, when she was 19 she had sex with Sam, when she was 20 she had sex with Joe, when she was 22 she had sex with tom. The question is who is she sinning against?
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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2008, 10:51:52 AM »

Fornication is a sin towards a future husband or wife. In Orthodoxy time is irrelevant. We have to look at it from the all perspectives. Lets use a theoretical wife as an example.
When my wife was 4 she had long brown hair down to her legs, when she was 5 she learned to ride a bike, when she was 10 she had a birthday party, when she was 18 she graduated high School, when she was 19 she had sex with Sam, when she was 20 she had sex with Joe, when she was 22 she had sex with tom. The question is who is she sinning against?

Yes, but no one's arguing that fornication is not a sin.  The assertion is that, for the same reason that fornication is a sin, usury is also just as much a sin.  How do you answer the charge that they're NOT different in terms of degree?
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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2008, 10:54:38 AM »

I didn't know a corporation can be held accountable for a sin. Yes Father, Citibank is here for there confession. Roll Eyes
At the Last Judgment, when the books are opened and all people are judged for EVERYTHING they have ever done or not done, I don't think participation in the sins of a corporation will go unnoticed.
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2008, 10:55:10 AM »

Yes, but no one's arguing that fornication is not a sin.  The assertion is that, for the same reason that fornication is a sin, usury is also just as much a sin.  How do you answer the charge that they're NOT different in terms of degree?
Sin is a sin when it affects people. Not corporations.
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2008, 11:02:24 AM »

Sin is a sin when it affects people. Not corporations.
IOW, you're arguing from your own logic, not from the Scriptures and Tradition that say that usury is a sin.  How do you justify logic that disregards the word of Scripture?

Besides, you talked earlier of corporations affecting people.  If you are to talk of what affect we have on corporations, then we're talking about corporations being sinned against.
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2008, 11:13:20 AM »

IOW, you're arguing from your own logic, not from the Scriptures that say that usury is a sin.  How do you justify logic that disregards the word of Scripture?
I will agree with you that people misusing corporations to profit unjustly are guilty of sin if they misuse there power. When the book are opened the corporation will not exist to be held accountable. The people will. I think it's beyond our power to control the worldly powers. We fell into them.  It is under our control to not fornicate.
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2008, 11:36:07 AM »

Rather than attacking the idea of credit and modern banking because of its misuse by people (and taking out a loan you can't pay for a la the current foreclosure, racking up credit card debt, etc. is entirely irrelevant to credit and is more a matter of self control), the ability to obtain a loan has revolutionized the standard of living for many people around the world.  There is no better example of this than the work of Dr. Muhammad Yunus. 

Perhaps my words were strong.  I am not attacking the very idea of credit.  After all, I used credit to attend college by obtaining a student loan which, as Anastasios pointed out, has an interest rate lower than the rate of inflation so, from my perspective, it's barely credit and more an agreement to pay back over time a large amount of money that will, in effect, be less than what I borrowed once all the math is worked out. 

Like most things in this world, credit can be good when used in moderation.  People nowadays, however, view credit as a right instead of a privilege and that has led us as a nation down the garden path of unmanageable debt.  It can be a very dangerous thing and, IMHO, a thing that many people do not need, with the possible exception of a mortgage.  I think many people tend to think more in terms of wants instead of needs and suffer financially as a result. 

Take, for example, any number of my coworkers.  They complain about the cost of parking in downtown Baltimore when every single one of the loudest voices lives very close to public transportation, be it bus, light rail, or commuter train.  My firm reimburses the entire cost of a monthly transit pass (inlcuding commuter rail) but may only cover 2/3 of the cost of parking depending on the garage/lot.  The passes are also tax deductible.  I save almost $1000 a year in transportation costs and $300 a year in taxes.  Now that my wife is working at my firm, we'll be saving over $2500/year total just by using public transportation to get to work.  For those among my coworekrs who live within the grasp of Maryland MTA's service, this should be a no brainer.  Sadly, it's apparently quantum mechanics.

Yes, that's anecdotal, but it's just one example of how a want can trump a need that can save you thousands of dollars a year.  Of course, not everyone lives near public transportation.  But those that do and don't use, and then complain about commuting costs are just examples of how screwed up our financial priorities are in this country, and that includes the notion that credit is a right rather than a privilege.

In short, credit can be a great thing.  It has done wonders for many, many people the world over.  But, like most, if not all, good things, it's abuse leads to the chains of debt resolution.
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2008, 11:40:19 AM »

Usury means charging interest. Like, you give one cent to someone, and say, give me back this cent and one half of the cent. Or, one thousand dollars that I gave you, plus two hundred dollars. It does not matter what exactly is the interest and why is it being charged and whether the lender uses it for good or for evil purposes. The Scriptures are clear. You charge interest, so you are doing what the Lord commands you NOT to do. You aid someone who is charging interest by agreeing to pay this interest - so, you are patraking in sin.

As Anastasios pointed out, many government backed student loans charge an interest rate less than the rate of inflation.  With payments stretched out over, say, a decade, once all the math is completed, the money paid back can be actually less than the money loaned.

So it ultimately the rate and time of repayment does factor into the definition of a loan as "usurious".
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2008, 11:42:12 AM »

I didn't know a corporation can be held accountable for a sin. Yes Father, Citibank is here for there confession. Roll Eyes

Corporations may be autonomous legal entites, but they are controlled by humans, by their stock holders, by their corporate board. It would be they who are guilty of the sin of usury, it would be they and their employees that you are causing to sin when you take out a loan.
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2008, 11:42:59 AM »

Sin is a sin when it affects people. Not corporations.

So stealing from Wal-Mart isn't a sin?
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2008, 11:49:39 AM »

Fornication is a sin towards a future husband or wife. In Orthodoxy time is irrelevant. We have to look at it from the all perspectives. Lets use a theoretical wife as an example.
When my wife was 4 she had long brown hair down to her legs, when she was 5 she learned to ride a bike, when she was 10 she had a birthday party, when she was 18 she graduated high School, when she was 19 she had sex with Sam, when she was 20 she had sex with Joe, when she was 22 she had sex with tom. The question is who is she sinning against?

Actually traditionall speaking, fornication is regarded as a sin against the woman's father, not one's future spouse. Whereas adultery is traditionally regarded as a sin against the husband (and only the husband)...let's be sure to understand the proper sociological context of the laws we are fighting so hard to uphold.

Perhaps you should read the relative Canons of St. Basil to give you some insight into this matter, of particular interest is his 21st. Canon:

'If any man cohabiting with a woman fails afterwards to rest content with inatrimony and falls into fornication, we judge such a man to be a fornicator, and we consider him to deserve even more in the way of penances. We have not, however, any Canon by which to task him with the charge of adultery if the sin is committed with a woman free from marriage. For an adulteress, it says, being defiled shall be defiled, and shall not return to her husband. And "anyone who keeps an adulteress is foolish and impious." One, however, who has committed fornication cannot be denied the right to cohabit with his wife. So that a wife must accept her husband when he returns from fornication, but a husband must send a defiled wife away from his home. The reason for these inconsistencies is not easily to be found, but at any rate a custom to this effect has obtained prevalence.'

Perhaps you can see why I take issues with the rigid application of some of these ancient canons and laws, which are clearly based on a different society and time...as foreign to us (thank God) as ancient economies would be to modern economies.
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2008, 12:04:00 PM »

If it's so important to not pay interest, then save and pay in cash rather than going for instant gratification.  Interest is the fee for having now what you would otherwise have to save to have.

In strictly economic terms thats not true because at the rate inflation is spreading a dollar today is worth more than a dollar 2 weeks from now..... Further, as prices rise and income lies stagnant, the non-instant way of getting things becomes longer and more drawn out.

-Nick
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2008, 12:08:21 PM »

Actually traditionall speaking, fornication is regarded as a sin against the woman's father, not one's future spouse. Whereas adultery is traditionally regarded as a sin against the husband (and only the husband)...let's be sure to understand the proper sociological context of the laws we are fighting so hard to uphold.

Perhaps you should read the relative Canons of St. Basil to give you some insight into this matter, of particular interest is his 21st. Canon:

'If any man cohabiting with a woman fails afterwards to rest content with inatrimony and falls into fornication, we judge such a man to be a fornicator, and we consider him to deserve even more in the way of penances. We have not, however, any Canon by which to task him with the charge of adultery if the sin is committed with a woman free from marriage. For an adulteress, it says, being defiled shall be defiled, and shall not return to her husband. And "anyone who keeps an adulteress is foolish and impious." One, however, who has committed fornication cannot be denied the right to cohabit with his wife. So that a wife must accept her husband when he returns from fornication, but a husband must send a defiled wife away from his home. The reason for these inconsistencies is not easily to be found, but at any rate a custom to this effect has obtained prevalence.'

Perhaps you can see why I take issues with the rigid application of some of these ancient canons and laws, which are clearly based on a different society and time...as foreign to us (thank God) as ancient economies would be to modern economies.
In the context of Greek society. When a father gives his daughter in marriage he is offering Pricka along with her virginity. Virginity was a garenttee in that culture. The woman would be sent back to her father where she would remain unmarried forever if she wasn't a virgin.
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2008, 12:14:09 PM »

In strictly economic terms thats not true because at the rate inflation is spreading a dollar today is worth more than a dollar 2 weeks from now..... Further, as prices rise and income lies stagnant, the non-instant way of getting things becomes longer and more drawn out.

-Nick

Okay, fine, interest at any rate above the rate of inflation is said fee and last time I checked, inflation wasn't running at a 13.9% clip.
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2008, 12:15:33 PM »

Fornication is a sin towards a future husband or wife. In Orthodoxy time is irrelevant. We have to look at it from the all perspectives. Lets use a theoretical wife as an example.
When my wife was 4 she had long brown hair down to her legs, when she was 5 she learned to ride a bike, when she was 10 she had a birthday party, when she was 18 she graduated high School, when she was 19 she had sex with Sam, when she was 20 she had sex with Joe, when she was 22 she had sex with tom. The question is who is she sinning against?


All sins are against GOD, no?

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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2008, 12:23:42 PM »

All sins are against GOD, no?

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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2008, 12:38:30 PM »

When you sin against your brother you are affecting his salvation. If he hates you will he go to heaven?
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2008, 12:58:21 PM »

When you sin against your brother you are affecting his salvation. If he hates you will he go to heaven?

Psalm 50 is commonly known as David's lamentation after Nathan showed him his sin in having Uriah killed so David's sin of adultery would be covered.  By your paradigm, one could say that David sinned against Uriah twice over by sleeping with his wife and then having him killed.  But nowhere in that Psalm does David mention Uriah.

He decries his own sin against God, specifically when he prays, "Against You only have I sinned and done this evil in Your sight."

While we can definitely sin against our brother, it has always been my understanding that all sin is against God.
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2008, 01:52:50 PM »

Perhaps my words were strong.  I am not attacking the very idea of credit.  After all, I used credit to attend college by obtaining a student loan which, as Anastasios pointed out, has an interest rate lower than the rate of inflation so, from my perspective, it's barely credit and more an agreement to pay back over time a large amount of money that will, in effect, be less than what I borrowed once all the math is worked out. 

Like most things in this world, credit can be good when used in moderation.  People nowadays, however, view credit as a right instead of a privilege and that has led us as a nation down the garden path of unmanageable debt.  It can be a very dangerous thing and, IMHO, a thing that many people do not need, with the possible exception of a mortgage.  I think many people tend to think more in terms of wants instead of needs and suffer financially as a result. 

Take, for example, any number of my coworkers.  They complain about the cost of parking in downtown Baltimore when every single one of the loudest voices lives very close to public transportation, be it bus, light rail, or commuter train.  My firm reimburses the entire cost of a monthly transit pass (inlcuding commuter rail) but may only cover 2/3 of the cost of parking depending on the garage/lot.  The passes are also tax deductible.  I save almost $1000 a year in transportation costs and $300 a year in taxes.  Now that my wife is working at my firm, we'll be saving over $2500/year total just by using public transportation to get to work.  For those among my coworekrs who live within the grasp of Maryland MTA's service, this should be a no brainer.  Sadly, it's apparently quantum mechanics.

Yes, that's anecdotal, but it's just one example of how a want can trump a need that can save you thousands of dollars a year.  Of course, not everyone lives near public transportation.  But those that do and don't use, and then complain about commuting costs are just examples of how screwed up our financial priorities are in this country, and that includes the notion that credit is a right rather than a privilege.

In short, credit can be a great thing.  It has done wonders for many, many people the world over.  But, like most, if not all, good things, it's abuse leads to the chains of debt resolution.

I still think we are talking about two separate issues.  The type of capitalism / credit / usury  that I have in mind is for-profit work done in developing nations that is raising people out of extreme poverty.  I think that the work of mercy that this becomes is entirely in line with the spirit of the Gospel.  Whereas being a back alley loan shark would probably be today's equivalent of biblical usury. 

For the other issue of financial irresponsibility and over consumption that almost define modern American society, I agree with you entirely - I find them disgusting.  I appreciate your anecdote about public transportation as I also receive a free bus pass since I'm a student.  My commute is 12 km each way, since the weather is so nice right now (I'll rub it in how beautiful AZ is  Grin ) I mostly ride my bike, but during the winter and summer I usually take the bus.  The reason why I don't think this is directly related to capitalism is that you can find examples in non-capitalist societies of the same thing.  And, I don't think there could ever be a viable economic system that would keep people from being stupid.  At least with capitalism, we have the option to live within our means and only use credit to help ourselves (like a mortgage or student loans).
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2008, 02:02:44 PM »

I still think we are talking about two separate issues.  The type of capitalism / credit / usury  that I have in mind is for-profit work done in developing nations that is raising people out of extreme poverty.  I think that the work of mercy that this becomes is entirely in line with the spirit of the Gospel. 

I would agree with you on this entirely.  You mentioned Dr. Muhammad Yunus earlier.  His work is entirely within the spirit of the Gospel, AFAIC.  Everyone wins with microcredit, it seems.

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Whereas being a back alley loan shark would probably be today's equivalent of biblical usury. 

I'd add predatory home mortgage companies who convince even skeptical buyers that they can afford that home with a variable rate loan. Smiley

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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2008, 02:24:36 PM »

Why all this philosophy... a sin is a sin is a sin...

I'm sorry I didn't see this earlier...

Why?  I'm not going to debate whether the Church at any point has seen usury as sinful - historical documents can attest to that.  I'm not going to debate whether the Church considers usury sinful now - I'm not in a position to make that determination.  My slant was that if you can convince people that borrowing money (and paying interest in exchange) is unnecessary in most cases, then the question will become moot as people will do it less.
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2008, 05:08:11 PM »

Psalm 50 is commonly known as David's lamentation after Nathan showed him his sin in having Uriah killed so David's sin of adultery would be covered.  By your paradigm, one could say that David sinned against Uriah twice over by sleeping with his wife and then having him killed.  But nowhere in that Psalm does David mention Uriah.

He decries his own sin against God, specifically when he prays, "Against You only have I sinned and done this evil in Your sight."

While we can definitely sin against our brother, it has always been my understanding that all sin is against God.


The whole point is that our sins affect others salvation. It is best to not put someone in the position to have to forgive us.

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Luke 15:21
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. '


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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2008, 05:12:51 PM »


The whole point is that our sins affect others salvation. It is best to not put someone in the position to have to forgive us.


Of course that's true.  I have not doubted that at all.  Indeed, I specifically stated that some sins can be against another.

But you have said that all sins are not against God.

I find that very wrong and the citatation from Luke you posted proves my point.  The Prodigal stated he has sinned against heaven, not just against his father.
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« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2008, 05:19:48 PM »

Of course that's true.  I have not doubted that at all.  Indeed, I specifically stated that some sins can be against another.

But you have said that all sins are not against God.

I find that very wrong and the citatation from Luke you posted proves my point.  The Prodigal stated he has sinned against heaven, not just against his father.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. Both are involved.
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« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2008, 05:38:10 PM »

Corporations may be autonomous legal entites, but they are controlled by humans, by their stock holders, by their corporate board. It would be they who are guilty of the sin of usury, it would be they and their employees that you are causing to sin when you take out a loan.


The employees are just as responsible a tax collector for doing there job.

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24After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"

 25"Yes, he does," he replied.
      When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own sons or from others?"

 26"From others," Peter answered.

   "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. 27"But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."
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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2008, 06:08:15 PM »

Corporations may be autonomous legal entites, but they are controlled by humans, by their stock holders, by their corporate board. It would be they who are guilty of the sin of usury, it would be they and their employees that you are causing to sin when you take out a loan. 

That would make government officials (elected and otherwise) and voting citizens culpable for the sin of the government.  Instead of a slippery slope, how about a greased hillside?
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2008, 07:08:31 PM »

That would make government officials (elected and otherwise) and voting citizens culpable for the sin of the government.  Instead of a slippery slope, how about a greased hillside?

The citizens of a republic are culpable in the actions of the state, especially if they supported the ruling party.
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2008, 07:29:33 PM »

The citizens of a republic are culpable in the actions of the state, especially if they supported the ruling party.

Since we are speaking of sin (an important matter to have all details correct on)... Does this include the disenfranchised?  Should all people be confessing to their Father confessors the sins of the nation?  State?  County?  City?  Of the company they work for?
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2008, 08:20:01 PM »

Since we are speaking of sin (an important matter to have all details correct on)... Does this include the disenfranchised?  Should all people be confessing to their Father confessors the sins of the nation?  State?  County?  City?  Of the company they work for?

Well, that would depend on the degree of involvement; every day we do small things that would be regarded or sins or things that, knowingly or unknowingly, would make our neighbour fall into sin. Every minor infraction throughout the day is generally not recorded to be read back at a later time for confession. But if we are more directly involved, such as a congressman voting for a bill with immoral implications or a member of a corporate board voting for the company to do something regarded as sinful (such as engage in usury?) then I would presume that such things should be confessed...at least as much so as any other sin.
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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2008, 08:56:24 PM »

Well, that would depend on the degree of involvement; every day we do small things that would be regarded or sins or things that, knowingly or unknowingly, would make our neighbour fall into sin. Every minor infraction throughout the day is generally not recorded to be read back at a later time for confession. But if we are more directly involved, such as a congressman voting for a bill with immoral implications or a member of a corporate board voting for the company to do something regarded as sinful (such as engage in usury?) then I would presume that such things should be confessed...at least as much so as any other sin.

The government can not confess. They lend to the banks at the prime lending rate. They are at the heart of the problem. I will agree that all people should accept a degree of liability, but on a personal level we are not sinners because we barrow.
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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2008, 09:05:13 PM »

Sharia loans are obviously the answer to our dilemma.
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« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2008, 09:08:53 PM »

The government can not confess. They lend to the banks at the prime lending rate. They are at the heart of the problem.

Rates that are controlled by the seven member governing board of the Federal Reserve.

Quote
I will agree that all people should accept a degree of liability, but on a personal level we are not sinners because we barrow.

I personally don't buy that usury is a sin, but if we are going to say that it is and be consistent then we must say that when we borrow with interest we are causing someone to engage in the sin of usury. By your reasoning, people who fence stolen property arn't engaging in an immoral act because they didn't actually steal it themselves.
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« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2008, 09:10:30 PM »

Sharia loans are obviously the answer to our dilemma.
They don't have to be sharia loans.
Our local Community Centre offers interest free loans for low income earners to purchase white goods. You don't have to be muslim (or even religious) to introduce interest free loans.
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