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Author Topic: ROCOR Missal  (Read 3713 times) Average Rating: 0
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ebpusey
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« on: February 28, 2008, 11:28:10 PM »

Hello,

How can one get one's hands on a ROCOR Missal and Pontifical?

Thanks,

Glen
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ebpusey
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2008, 11:46:46 PM »

And further, in what ways does this Missal differ from other Western Rite missals (obviously excluding the Liturgy of St. Tikhon used by the AWRV)?  I have seen two documents online (at Fr. Aidan Keller's website) which have peaked my interest. Any information would be extremely helpful.
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Elisha
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« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 01:31:10 AM »

I have no idea, but try asking them.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 01:32:02 AM by Elisha » Logged
Credo.InDeum
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« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 02:10:02 AM »

Missal seems very Latin .... do you mean a printed copy of the Divine Liturgy of St Basil and the the Divine Liturgy of St Chrysostom?
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« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 02:13:45 AM »

Missal seems very Latin .... do you mean a printed copy of the Divine Liturgy of St Basil and the the Divine Liturgy of St Chrysostom?

Credo.InDeum,
No, look at the link I provided again.
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« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 02:26:43 AM »

Missal seems very Latin
You probably didn't realise it, but they are are talking about Western Rite Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 05:55:55 AM »

And further, in what ways does this Missal differ from other Western Rite missals (obviously excluding the Liturgy of St. Tikhon used by the AWRV)?  I have seen two documents online (at Fr. Aidan Keller's website) which have peaked my interest. Any information would be extremely helpful.


Why obviously excluding the DL of St. Tikhon?  St. Tikhon had it approved by the Holy Synod while bishop of America, predating ROCOR.
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« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 09:36:04 AM »

I believe ROCOR Western Rite  preferred going to  an older  rite than the adpated Anglican Rite that St Tikon used. St Tikon's Liturgy is  the only one that the synod of Bishops in Russia actually approved of and authorized.  St Tikon followed their instructions to th "T" and for those former Anglicans it is a blessing to here correct Orthodox doctrine in a familiar setting that is more comfortable to them and fills their spiritual needs and traditions. The use of sarunm Rite and The Rite of St Peter still have had to adapt their rites to meet the requirements set out by the Synod of Bishops.  The Antichian Western Rite was approved by the Antiochian Patriarch in the last half of the 2oth century.  The ROCOR  Western Rite is even newer.

Thomas
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« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 12:47:35 PM »

To answer ebpusey's second question I think ROCOR's Roman Rite Missal is the version of the Roman Missal approved by the Russian Church in the late 1800s at the request of the convert Overbeck (who wasn't allowed to serve as a Russian priest because he was a former Roman Catholic priest who married). I've been told it's simpler than the Tridentine Mass (like the traditional Dominican Missal is in the Roman Church) but still traditional Roman Rite (in this Orthodox version there's no filioque and an epiklesis added).

The Antiochian version is, with those Orthodox changes, the Tridentine Mass.

Both are done in English but I think of course can be done in Latin (the West's traditional and pre-schism liturgical language). St Mark's Antiochian in Denver does one in Latin.

St Tikhon had the idea of a Ortho-fied Book of Common Prayer for an Anglicanism reunited with his church and never actually used it. He sent a BCP to Russia for study and the Holy Synod wrote a report, which the Antiochians implemented many years later and still do.

IIRC Western Rite Orthodoxy exists in only the Antiochian Church, ROCOR and one European Orthodox church. The rites are:

• Roman Rite (ROCOR),
• Roman Rite (Antiochian),
• modified BCP (Antiochian),
• ROCOR's Anglicanesque one (part BCP, part Sarum Use Roman, part byzantinisations) done by two or three ex-Anglicans in Australia and
• the so-called reconstructed Gallican Rite (heavily byzantinised) which St John of Shanghai and San Francisco in the 1950s help draw up for 'the Orthodox Church of France' (l'ECOF) when it was in ROCOR. I don't know what happened but much of this little church is now outside canonical Orthodoxy but I recently read that some parishes in Europe are back in it and using this rite.

Most Western Rite Orthodox are Antiochian former Anglicans in America using the modified BCP (St Tikhon rite).

Interestingly there are four times more of them than their opposite number in the Roman Church using a different modified BCP.

I think the Antiochians allow statues and ROCOR doesn't but both use Western crucifixes. I also was recently told that the Antiochian ones cross themselves the Western way, left to right, whilst the ROCOR ones do it the Byzantine way (as I've seen on video) claiming correctly that it's authentic early-mediaeval Western practice.

In practice both groups are often noticeably byzantinised, the mirror of Roman Rite practices and devotions in a Byzantine Catholic parish.

Aidan Keller used to be a priest and monk in a group not in canonical Orthodoxy with its own version of Sarum Use (which in practice looked very byzantinised).
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ebpusey
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« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 02:56:56 PM »

Why obviously excluding the DL of St. Tikhon?  St. Tikhon had it approved by the Holy Synod while bishop of America, predating ROCOR.

I was referring only to variations on the classical Roman Rite (perhaps this was only clear in my own head!) I have often wondered what the actual Ordinary and Canon of the Mass approved by the Russian Church looks like. From what I understand, it varies from the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory as used in the AWRV, though this may simply be in the number of Saints mentioned in the Canon.
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« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 07:13:04 PM »

I also was recently told that the Antiochian ones cross themselves the Western way, left to right, whilst the ROCOR ones do it the Byzantine way (as I've seen on video) claiming correctly that it's authentic early-mediaeval Western practice.

I can only speak for my own Antiochian WR parish, but I think most people there cross themselves the Byzantine way.  I tried it for awhile, but the Western way feels more natural to me (after years in an Anglo-Catholic parish).
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Credo.InDeum
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 01:10:59 AM »

Credo.InDeum,
No, look at the link I provided again.

Sorry, I didn't realise that "them" was a link ... I've visited the link now and I see that this is about an Anglican-like Orthodox rite ... possibly similar to the Anglican Use rite in the Catholic Church.

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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 08:38:55 AM »

Sorry, I didn't realise that "them" was a link ... I've visited the link now and I see that this is about an Anglican-like Orthodox rite ... possibly similar to the Anglican Use rite in the Catholic Church.

Yes - both are eastward-facing with traditional vestments and often with 'thou'-style English - but the Orthodox versions are more traditional. Anglican Use RC is a splice of the modern (1979) American Book of Common Prayer, which has slightly edited-down versions of the prayers of the old book, and the standard modern RC service (the offertory and the words of institution in the consecration for example).
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Credo.InDeum
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 12:15:23 AM »

Why did the 'western rite' Orthodox folk use an Anglican book of common prayer as a starting point when the book of common prayer was already a derivative of the ancient Latin Roman rite? Why not just use an english translation of the ancient Latin Roman rite?
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 04:12:05 AM »

Why did the 'western rite' Orthodox folk use an Anglican book of common prayer as a starting point when the book of common prayer was already a derivative of the ancient Latin Roman rite? Why not just use an english translation of the ancient Latin Roman rite?
As a theory, it was most likely due to the fact that those coming to the Western Rite early on where coming from an Anglican background so they used what they knew.
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Joseph
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2008, 08:09:02 AM »

Because St Tikhon, influenced by his friend the Anglican Bishop of Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, Charles Grafton, a non-papalist Anglo-Catholic, thought Anglicans corporately converting to Orthodoxy was more likely than Rome so doing?
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ebpusey
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2008, 06:26:17 PM »

Because St Tikhon, influenced by his friend the Anglican Bishop of Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, Charles Grafton, a non-papalist Anglo-Catholic, thought Anglicans corporately converting to Orthodoxy was more likely than Rome so doing?

Bishop Grafton also was a friend of St. John of Kronstadt. In Grafton's biography, it is noted that he was permitted to walk behind the Iconstasis, which is thoroughly surprising.
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