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« on: February 27, 2008, 03:19:10 PM »

Patripassianism is a form of modalism, the teaching that there is only one God, who appears in three different modes (as opposed to the orthodox teaching that there is one God, who exists in three persons).

Patripassianism comes from the Latin, and means "the father suffers." The name refers to the teaching that God the Father suffers on the cross as Son — since the two are different modes of the same person. Patripassianism is closely related to Sabellianism.
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2008, 04:06:28 PM »

Hm. Is this a convert forum topic? And is there really anything to discuss within it?

What is this in context to?
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2008, 05:33:50 PM »

He has this whole theory that those who cross themselves the byzantine way, thumb and two fingers together, are patriapassianists.
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 05:48:23 PM »

He has this whole theory that those who cross themselves the byzantine way, thumb and two fingers together, are patriapassianists.

He's one of those Old Believers who opposed Patriarch Nikon's reforms in the early eighteenth century.  That's fine with me.  I don't appreciate my practice of crossing myself being called heretical or worthy of anathema, however.
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2008, 09:46:24 AM »

Patripassianism is a form of modalism, the teaching that there is only one God, who appears in three different modes (as opposed to the orthodox teaching that there is one God, who exists in three persons).

Patripassianism comes from the Latin, and means "the father suffers." The name refers to the teaching that God the Father suffers on the cross as Son — since the two are different modes of the same person. Patripassianism is closely related to Sabellianism.


Sabellianism was declared a heresy by the orthodox church.  last time I checked.  SO...not really sure what your point is.  Even with the other clarifications. 
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2008, 11:21:41 AM »

Patripassianism is a form of modalism, the teaching that there is only one God, who appears in three different modes (as opposed to the orthodox teaching that there is one God, who exists in three persons).

Patripassianism comes from the Latin, and means "the father suffers." The name refers to the teaching that God the Father suffers on the cross as Son — since the two are different modes of the same person. Patripassianism is closely related to Sabellianism.

Fatman,

This is a copy-and-paste straight out of wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patripassianism).  You didn't write this article yourself, did you?
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2008, 11:46:21 AM »

This Macedonian heretic denies the deity of the Holy Spirit. Isn't it obvious? He only uses two fingers. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 06:08:03 PM »

This Macedonian heretic denies the deity of the Holy Spirit. Isn't it obvious? He only uses two fingers. Roll Eyes
Not true...
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 06:32:13 PM »

Not true...
So then, how is it true that we who cross ourselves with three fingers crucify the Father?  Is it possible that a symbol may not have an inherent absolute meaning, that it's meaning may be connected to and defined by the culture that developed it?
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 06:59:32 PM »

So then, how is it true that we who cross ourselves with three fingers crucify the Father?  Is it possible that a symbol may not have an inherent absolute meaning, that it's meaning may be connected to and defined by the culture that developed it?

In like manner, in the Sign of the precious Cross, this excellent sacrament of the faith teaches us how to know a mystery. For the joining of three fingers together-the thumb, the ring finger and the little finger- confesses the mystery of the three divine hypostases, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons, while joining together the other two fingers-the forefinger and the middle finger- and extending them signifies the mystery of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who is perfect God and perfect Man. Slightly bending the middle finger confesses the mystery that the Son of God bowed the heavens and came down upon the earth and bacame man for our salvation. Thus, having joined these two fingers, we first place them on the head, or on the forehead; we confess that He Who is our one true and eternal Head gave us Himself  as head over all Churches; that is, over His body. Next, we place them on the belly, confessing His desent to earth; we clearly proclaim His conception without seed in the most pure womb of the Mother of God and His dwelling there for nine months, for He alone passed through her womb as the sun through glass, without damaging her virginity by His birth. Then, we place them on the right shoulder; we confess that He sits at the right hand of God the Father, until His enemies are made His footstool. Finally, we place them on the left shouder, signifying that He will come agian for judgment and will render unto those on the left everlasting punishmant, but unto those on the right everlasting life. Thus having signed ourselves with the Sign of the precious Cross, we bow before God in adoration, beseeching Him to deliver us from the lot of those on the left and to grant us His blessing.

Let every believer be not careless, nor let him brazenly cross himself as though it were nothing, but let him make the Sign of the Cross on his person with awe, with right faith and with a cleen conscience, as the theological writings indicate. It is also written in the books of the holy fathers that if anyone crosses himself improperly, that is, if he crosses himself wrongly, out of pride or laziness, and waves his hand back and forth, the demons rejoice at such hand-waving.

When you cross yourself with three fingers you confess that the Father died on the cross as the Son. The sign of the cross is a confession of faith. When you do not cross yourself corectly, you do not confess right faith.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 07:20:11 PM »

When you cross yourself with three fingers you confess that the Father died on the cross as the Son. The sign of the cross is a confession of faith. When you do not cross yourself corectly, you do not confess right faith.
So then, if this is true of us, then we are equally justified to say, as Symeon did above, that you deny the deity of the Holy Spirit when you cross yourself with only two fingers.  Do you see what I'm saying?  You've attached an absolute meaning to a symbol and are judging us by this meaning, yet you won't allow us to do the same to you.
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2008, 10:38:27 PM »

So then, if this is true of us, then we are equally justified to say, as Symeon did above, that you deny the deity of the Holy Spirit when you cross yourself with only two fingers.  Do you see what I'm saying?  You've attached an absolute meaning to a symbol and are judging us by this meaning, yet you won't allow us to do the same to you.
The sign of the cross is not just some symbol. It is  a confession of faith.

Do you reject the mystery of the three divine hypostases, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons? Do you reject the mystery of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who is perfect God and perfect Man? Do you reject the mystery of the Son of God who bowed the heavens and came down upon the earth and bacame man for our salvation?
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 11:48:28 PM »

The sign of the cross is not just some symbol. It is  a confession of faith.
Yes, the sign of the cross as a whole is a confession of faith.  What each element of the Sign represents in connection with this confession, whether the person crosses himself with two fingers or with three, has a symbolic meaning to the person crossing himself, though.  Can you really make this meaning absolute and then condemn those who cross themselves with three fingers as Patripassianist heretics?  When I cross myself with three fingers, I certainly don't think I'm crucifying the Father and the Spirit, for that's not what the symbol of crossing myself with three fingers means to me.  But if that's what the symbol of the three-fingered cross means to you, then by all means for your salvation cross yourself with two fingers according to your practice.  Just don't make your interpretation of the symbol of the three-fingered cross absolute, for no symbol has absolute meaning apart from the person who attaches meaning to the symbol.

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Do you reject the mystery of the three divine hypostases, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons? Do you reject the mystery of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who is perfect God and perfect Man? Do you reject the mystery of the Son of God who bowed the heavens and came down upon the earth and bacame man for our salvation?
No, no, and no.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2008, 12:17:31 AM »

In like manner, in the Sign of the precious Cross, this excellent sacrament of the faith teaches us how to know a mystery. For the joining of three fingers together-the thumb, the ring finger and the little finger- confesses the mystery of the three divine hypostases, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in three Persons,

Why does it have to be those fingers.  Why not the thumb, the forefinger and middle finger?  And these represent the trinity? 

Quote
while joining together the other two fingers-the forefinger and the middle finger- and extending them signifies the mystery of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Who is perfect God and perfect Man. Slightly bending the middle finger confesses the mystery that the Son of God bowed the heavens and came down upon the earth and bacame man for our salvation.

Same question here.  How come the ring finger and pinkie cannot represent the two natures of Christ? 

Quote
Thus, having joined these two fingers, we first place them on the head, or on the forehead; we confess that He Who is our one true and eternal Head gave us Himself  as head over all Churches; that is, over His body. Next, we place them on the belly, confessing His desent to earth; we clearly proclaim His conception without seed in the most pure womb of the Mother of God and His dwelling there for nine months, for He alone passed through her womb as the sun through glass, without damaging her virginity by His birth. Then, we place them on the right shoulder; we confess that He sits at the right hand of God the Father, until His enemies are made His footstool. Finally, we place them on the left shouder, signifying that He will come agian for judgment and will render unto those on the left everlasting punishmant, but unto those on the right everlasting life. Thus having signed ourselves with the Sign of the precious Cross, we bow before God in adoration, beseeching Him to deliver us from the lot of those on the left and to grant us His blessing.

I crossed out the number two, with a question in mind.  Why can it not be three?  Everything else sounds pretty fair to me. 

Quote
Let every believer be not careless, nor let him brazenly cross himself as though it were nothing, but let him make the Sign of the Cross on his person with awe, with right faith and with a cleen conscience, as the theological writings indicate. It is also written in the books of the holy fathers that if anyone crosses himself improperly, that is, if he crosses himself wrongly, out of pride or laziness, and waves his hand back and forth, the demons rejoice at such hand-waving.

Brazenly?  Really?  right faith huh...clean conscious?  What theological writings?  What holy fathers?  demons rejoicing?  Do you have any quotes for any of this? 

Just trying to understand where you're comin from on these things, because I've never read it, except in the writings of declared heretics or schismatics...so...slightly problematic I would say...
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2008, 12:51:29 AM »

Why does it have to be those fingers.  Why not the thumb, the forefinger and middle finger?  And these represent the trinity? 

Same question here.  How come the ring finger and pinkie cannot represent the two natures of Christ? 

I crossed out the number two, with a question in mind.  Why can it not be three?  Everything else sounds pretty fair to me. 

Brazenly?  Really?  right faith huh...clean conscious?  What theological writings?  What holy fathers?  demons rejoicing?  Do you have any quotes for any of this? 

Just trying to understand where you're coming from on these things, because I've never read it, except in the writings of declared heretics or schismatics...so...slightly problematic I would say...
My sources are the Old Orthodox Prayer Book, and the Psalter printed under the Patriarchate of Patriarch Joseph of Moscow.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2008, 07:16:50 AM »

Thank you for that reference! 

Would you care to respond to my questions?  I truly am curious as to why one finger is more important than the other. 

Let me know...
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2008, 07:01:13 PM »

Thank you for that reference! 

Would you care to respond to my questions?  I truly am curious as to why one finger is more important than the other. 

Let me know...

I do not have an answer for your questions at this time, but I will look into it and respond to your questions as soon as I get an answer.
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 05:27:00 PM »

Why does it have to be those fingers.  Why not the thumb, the forefinger and middle finger?  And these represent the trinity? 

Same question here.  How come the ring finger and pinkie cannot represent the two natures of Christ? 

I crossed out the number two, with a question in mind.  Why can it not be three?  Everything else sounds pretty fair to me. 

Brazenly?  Really?  right faith huh...clean conscious?  What theological writings?  What holy fathers?  demons rejoicing?  Do you have any quotes for any of this? 

Just trying to understand where you're coming from on these things, because I've never read it, except in the writings of declared heretics or schismatics...so...slightly problematic I would say...

because it forms the letters XC IC.
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 06:17:25 PM »

because it forms the letters XC IC.
So, forming the letters J C doesn't count?
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2008, 10:46:10 PM »

So, forming the letters J C doesn't count?

Right PtA...Your explanation (fatman) (below) has not really helped me out at all...

because it forms the letters XC IC.

In Eastern Orthodox blessings, a priest will put out his index finger, then curve the middle finger in the form of a "c", and then cross his ring and thumb "finger" while curving the pinkie to form a "c"  which in total format looks like IC XC. 

SO...I again have no idea why the fingers thing is such a big deal.  we are both apparently making the symbol of Jesus Christ.  So why is one better than the other? 

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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 12:19:09 AM »

Patriarch Meletius ascended the throne of the Patriarchate of Antioch by consent of the Orthodox and Arian Bishops. Because of the confidence of the Council in him, they all, including King Constantius, agreed in writing to accept his interpretation of the verse by Solomon the Wise which says, "The Lord hath created me", which, in the opinion of the Arians, referred to the creation of the Son. He said that Adam beget Seth, and that the meaning of the word created in this verse is to give birth, not to create in the usual sense. Those who were present were greatly rejoiced, and asked him for further proof. Then he raised three fingers of his right hand, the thumb, the index, and the middle finger, and bent the other two, as he said, "These three fingers of the right hand are  a symbol of the Trinity." Then bending the index and the middle fingers and leaving the thumb raised, he added, "And as these fingers now are one, so also the Substance is one." Shortly thereafter Patriarch Meletius was exiled to his native city of Sebaste for harbouring the heresy of Sabellius, the Bishop of Pentapolis.

Source:

Divine Prayers and Services of The Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ
Compiled and arranged by the late Reverend Seraphim Nassar
Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of New York, 1938, 1961
Page 1066
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2009, 01:08:01 AM »

Patriarch Meletius ascended the throne of the Patriarchate of Antioch by consent of the Orthodox and Arian Bishops. Because of the confidence of the Council in him, they all, including King Constantius, agreed in writing to accept his interpretation of the verse by Solomon the Wise which says, "The Lord hath created me", which, in the opinion of the Arians, referred to the creation of the Son. He said that Adam beget Seth, and that the meaning of the word created in this verse is to give birth, not to create in the usual sense. Those who were present were greatly rejoiced, and asked him for further proof. Then he raised three fingers of his right hand, the thumb, the index, and the middle finger, and bent the other two, as he said, "These three fingers of the right hand are  a symbol of the Trinity." Then bending the index and the middle fingers and leaving the thumb raised, he added, "And as these fingers now are one, so also the Substance is one." Shortly thereafter Patriarch Meletius was exiled to his native city of Sebaste for harbouring the heresy of Sabellius, the Bishop of Pentapolis.

Source:

Divine Prayers and Services of The Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ
Compiled and arranged by the late Reverend Seraphim Nassar
Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of New York, 1938, 1961
Page 1066
Your point being...  that you refuse to accept any definition of the "Nikonian" Sign of the Cross that differs from your own? Roll Eyes  So, do you really want to discuss Patripassianism, or do you just want to use this subject as yet another soapbox for you to preach against the "Nikonian" Sign of the Cross?
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2009, 09:12:18 AM »

As a premise, I must say I find nothing contrary to a different tradition to make the Sign of the Cross, as the Old-Believers do. Nevertheless I can't accept this schismatic will saying that ALL the other Orthodox are heretic as they make the Sign of the Cross in a different way. I find this absurd, since your saying that only a strict minority of people will be saved: the practice of a three-fingered Sign of the Cross is bimillenarian and existed largely before the Schism of 1054 AD. There are at least two reasons while your position is so weak:
1) Different words and symbols can express the same faith. Only the seven Mysteries, who were instituted directly by the Lord, should be kept identical overtime. Following your ideas, all first Christians were heretic since the Sign of the Cross was made in a different way both then yours and ours: they used three crosses on forehead, mouth and breast.
2) It's an historical truth that the Russian Old-Believer Orthodox Patriarchs of Moscow BEFORE Nikon's reformations were in full communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Since Nikon introduced the three-fingered Sign of the Cross to follow the practice of Constantinople, maybe you should wonder why the Patriarchs of Moscow never condamned such a supposed "heresy" or even excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch before Nikon's reformations.
3) No Ecumenical Council, no local Synod and no Church Father never condamned such a practice. There are on the contrary many pre-Schism proofs on the contrary, i.e. that there had been two different practices in the First Millennium AD: three crosses on forehead, mouth and breast, or the three-fingered Sign of the Cross.

Sorry but I can't accept your schismatic approach to the problem... considering that some of you preferred not to have clergy and sacraments then admitting that Nikon's innovations had nothing to do with the Orthodox Faith...

May God let you understand your sins (since Schismatics have always been considered heretics in the Orthodox Church) and let you repent.
In Christ,  Alex

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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2009, 09:45:18 PM »

Quote
As a premise, I must say I find nothing contrary to a different tradition to make the Sign of the Cross, as the Old-Believers do. Nevertheless I can't accept this schismatic will saying that ALL the other Orthodox are heretic as they make the Sign of the Cross in a different way. I find this absurd, since your saying that only a strict minority of people will be saved: the practice of a three-fingered Sign of the Cross is bimillenarian and existed largely before the Schism of 1054 AD. There are at least two reasons while your position is so weak:
1) Different words and symbols can express the same faith. Only the seven Mysteries, who were instituted directly by the Lord, should be kept identical overtime. Following your ideas, all first Christians were heretic since the Sign of the Cross was made in a different way both then yours and ours: they used three crosses on forehead, mouth and breast.
2) It's an historical truth that the Russian Old-Believer Orthodox Patriarchs of Moscow BEFORE Nikon's reformations were in full communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Since Nikon introduced the three-fingered Sign of the Cross to follow the practice of Constantinople, maybe you should wonder why the Patriarchs of Moscow never condamned such a supposed "heresy" or even excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch before Nikon's reformations.
3) No Ecumenical Council, no local Synod and no Church Father never condamned such a practice. There are on the contrary many pre-Schism proofs on the contrary, i.e. that there had been two different practices in the First Millennium AD: three crosses on forehead, mouth and breast, or the three-fingered Sign of the Cross.

Sorry but I can't accept your schismatic approach to the problem... considering that some of you preferred not to have clergy and sacraments then admitting that Nikon's innovations had nothing to do with the Orthodox Faith...

May God let you understand your sins (since Schismatics have always been considered heretics in the Orthodox Church) and let you repent.
In Christ,  Alex

The sign of the cross must be made according to the rules, in the form of a cross; and the right hand, that is, the dextral hand, must be used in crossing oneself, with the thumb and the two lower fingers joined together, and the extended index finger joined to the middle finger, slightly bent; thus should prelates [and] priests give their blessing and thus should men cross themselves. . . . It befits all Orthodox Christians to hold their hand thus, and to make the sign of the cross upon their face with two fingers, and to bow, as we said before. If anyone should fail to give his blessing with two fingers, as Christ did, or should fail to make the sign of the cross with two fingers, may he be accursed.. . .

 -Chapter 31 of The Council Of The Hundred Chapters.
The Council Of The Hundred Chapters is one those local councils that you say do not existent...
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2009, 09:56:17 PM »

le⋅gal⋅ism
   
/ˈligəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [lee-guh-liz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.    strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, esp. to the letter rather than the spirit.
2.    Theology.
a.    the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
b.    the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.
3.    (initial capital letter) (in Chinese philosophy) the principles and practices of a school of political theorists advocating strict legal control over all activities, a system of rewards and punishments uniform for all classes, and an absolute monarchy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/legalism
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ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2009, 10:53:47 PM »

-Chapter 31 of The Council Of The Hundred Chapters.
The Council Of The Hundred Chapters is one those local councils that you say do not existent...
No, we don't deny its existence.  We just don't acknowledge its authority.  If you, an Old Believer, want to submit to the authority of an Old Believers' council, go right on ahead and knock yourself out.  Just don't expect anyone of us to follow you.
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2009, 11:01:28 PM »

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The sign of the cross must be made according to the rules

Because that's what Orthodoxy is about... rules!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2009, 08:37:55 AM »

I certainly know of the existence of that council, since I studied the phenomenon of Old Believers for an exam at university. That council was a local one, held in 1551 AD under Metropolitan Macarius. Then, this Council has no value not only to me, but I think even to all Orthodox Christians with a little bit of reason. How can a local council, never ratified by an Ecumenical Council, impose canons binding for the entire Church?
I must add that at the time there was no Patriarchate of Moscow; the bishop of Moscow was just a Metropolitan! How can a Metropolitan decide for everyone? Even the Ecumenical Patriarch can't anathematize without the consent of an Ecumenical Council!
The rule of that synod is useless and isn't binding to anyone. This same council obliges even the laymen to have beards...  which means that we can be saved only if we have beards... You new-pharisees are just diminishing the essence of Christianity to human-made rules that have nothing to do with salvation... but only to appearance.
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"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
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