Topic: Cathedral Rite vs. Monastic Rite

[Elisha]

Here is a question for you experts:

What is Cathedral Rite vs Monastic Rite?  Does this have to do with NOT doing the psalm verses during the first two Antiphons or is it whether or not the first two antiphons are "Through the Prayers..." & "O Son of God..." vs "Bless the Lord..." & "Praise the Lord..." (this being, for non-feast day Sundays of course)?  I'm guessing it is the latter and NOT doing the psalm verses is more (in my cynical mind) laziness.

I split this topic off of the question about Soul Saturday since this was taking over that discussion - Arimethea, Liturgy Section Moderator

[arimethea]

What is Cathedral Rite vs Monastic Rite?  Does this have to do with NOT doing the psalm verses during the first two Antiphons or is it whether or not the first two antiphons are "Through the Prayers..." & "O Son of God..." vs "Bless the Lord..." & "Praise the Lord..." (this being, for non-feast day Sundays of course)?  I'm guessing it is the latter and NOT doing the psalm verses is more (in my cynical mind) laziness.

The Cathedral Rite died when Constantinople fell. The Cathedral Rite required large multiple choirs and many deacons in order to be done properly.

Our modern practice is based totally on the Monastic Rite. Even the antiphons on "Through the prayers..." and "O Son of God..." are monastic rite for Festal Liturgies that has become the regular usage is Greek influenced parishes.

The Cathedral Practice of Antiphonal singing was adopted and preserved in the later Monastic Practice. My comment about Michael Farrow inventing the Psalm verses is based on the fact then when the antiphonal singing took place it was with an entire psalm rather then a few select verses. These Antiphons as used in the Cathedral Rite were processional pieces to usher the people into the churches so the full psalm with a refrain was needed to get everyone into such places as Agia Sophia.

[Deacon Lance]

"The Cathedral Rite died when Constantinople fell. The Cathedral Rite required large multiple choirs and many deacons in order to be done properly."

Actually the Cathedral Rite was still serve in the Cathedral of Thessalonika in St. Simeon the Theologian's time. Doctor Alexander Lingas in his article: 'Festal Cathedral Vespers in Late Byzantium', Orientalia Christiana Periodica 63 (1997): 421-455, debunked the theory that the Cathedral Rite was difficult to execute. See also: http://www.analogion.com/CathedralRite.html

"Our modern practice is based totally on the Monastic Rite. Even the antiphons on "Through the prayers..." and "O Son of God..." are monastic rite for Festal Liturgies that has become the regular usage is Greek influenced parishes."

Again the Antiphons were taken directly from the Cathedral Rite where they were used both at Vespers and Liturgy and were called the Little Antiphons precisely because they only used 4 verses of 3 Psalms.

The format was:
Little Litany
Prayer
Pslam 114 4 verses with response: Through the prayers of the Theotokos…
Little Litany   
Prayer
Psalm 115 4 verses with response: O Son of God Risen from the Dead…
Hymn of the Only Begotten Son
Little Litany
Prayer 116 4 verses with response: The Trisagion


The Psalm verses disappeared from the Trisagion and Pslams 114 and 115 were replaced with Pslams 65 and 66 for Sundays and 91 and 92 for Weekdays and selected Psalms for Feasts of Our Lord. The Carpatho-Rusyns still normally use Pslams 65 and 66 on Sundays. The Typical Psalms and Beatitudes are an importation from the Monastic Typika service.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Deacon Lance]

An outline of the Cathedral Services:

Cathedral Vespers

Blessing
Great Litany (Synapte)
Prayer
Psalm 85 with R. Glory to you O God
Little Litany
Prayer
Psalm 67 vs1 with R. Alleluia
Psalm 140 with R. Glory to your life-giving Resurrection (entrance made at vs 8 )
Stichera
Prokimen
Fervent Litany (Ektene)
The Little Antiphons (just like at Liturgy)
   Little Litany
   Prayer
   Pslam 114 4vs with R. Through the prayers of the Theotokos…
   Little Litany   
   Prayer
   Psalm 115 4vs with R. O Son of God Risen from the Dead…
   Only Begotten Son
   Little Litany
   Prayer 116 4vs with R. Trisagion
Litany of Supplication (Aiteseis)
Prayer
Prayer of Bowed Heads
Aposticha
Lite
Troparia
Dismissal

Cathedral Matins

Blessing
Litany of Peace
Prayer
Psalms 3, 62, 133 with R. Glory to you O God
Little Litany
Prayer
Psalm 118 vs 1-72 with Alleluia
Little Litany
Prayer
Psalm 118 vs 73-131 with R. Give me understanding O Lord
Little Litany
Prayer
Psalm 118 vs 132-176 with Alleluia
Canticle of Three Youths (Cross with three candles placed on ambon and entrance)
Psalm 50
Resurrection Troparion
Psalms 148, 149, 150
Stichera
Eothinon
Troparion: You are truly blessed, O Virgin Theotokos…
Canticle of Zachary with Blessed be the Lord God of Israel
Canticle of the Theotokos
Great Doxology
Troparion: Today Salvation has come to the world… or You came forth from death…
Prokimen: Arise then O Lord lift up your hand…
Gospel of the Resurrection
Litany
Dismissal
   

[arimethea]

Actually the Cathedral Rite was still serve in the Cathedral of Thessalonika in St. Simeon the Theologian's time. Doctor Alexander Lingas in his article: 'Festal Cathedral Vespers in Late Byzantium'...

Again the Antiphons were taken directly from the Cathedral Rite where they were used both at Vespers and Liturgy and were called the Little Antiphons precisely because they only used 4 verses of 3 Psalms.

Dr. Lingas has his agenda and therefore makes some leaps that have been criticized by those who actually study Liturgical development vs. musical development where Dr. Lingas true talents are.

The Little Antiphons developed during the transitional period from the Constantinople period to the post Constantinople period. It is no surprise that Simeon the New Theologian was serving Cathedral Rite practices in Thessaloniki since this would have been during start of 1000AD some 400 years before the practice had totally fallen out of use. It is late enough where some of the monastic practices had crept into the Cathedral Rite. After the Iconoclastic period the Cathedral and Monastic practices started a flip flop on some of their aspects. They key thing to remember is that by this point every major city had its own unique practice.

[Deacon Lance]

What do Dr. Lingas' critics find wrong with his assertations?

As to the mixing of Rites, yes it was in fact St. Simeon who introduced the Monastic practice of singing of Canons into Cathedral Matins because the people liked them. He also reduced the psalmody because the people grumbled the services were too long.

Fr. Deacon Lance   

[ilyazhito]

Services too long? That is a typical complaint. Anyhow, there wasn't one monastic rite: There are at least two, the Studite and the Sabaite rites. The Studite Rite in combination with the abbreviations used in the Cathedral Rite is the basis of the services in most of the Greek-speaking churches (GOAA, Patriarchate of Constantinople, Church of Greece). The Sabaite Typikon is the one used by Jerusalem, the Church of Russia (ROCOR and MP) as the basis of their services, hence the greater number of Vigils in Russian parishes, even though the Vigils are not literally all night, they maintain the spirit and basic structure of the Sabaite Vigils. There is a third rite The rite of Mt. Athos, that is used on the Holy Mountain and those monasteries such as St. Anthony's in Arizona. There are more Vigils, as in the Sabaite Rite, and the Vigil literally lasts all night. I don't know the other details, but hopefully this helps. I just wanted to clarify that there is not one Monastic Rite, but multiple Monastic Rites.

[frjohnmorris]

Services too long? That is a typical complaint. Anyhow, there wasn't one monastic rite: There are at least two, the Studite and the Sabaite rites. The Studite Rite in combination with the abbreviations used in the Cathedral Rite is the basis of the services in most of the Greek-speaking churches (GOAA, Patriarchate of Constantinople, Church of Greece). The Sabaite Typikon is the one used by Jerusalem, the Church of Russia (ROCOR and MP) as the basis of their services, hence the greater number of Vigils in Russian parishes, even though the Vigils are not literally all night, they maintain the spirit and basic structure of the Sabaite Vigils. There is a third rite The rite of Mt. Athos, that is used on the Holy Mountain and those monasteries such as St. Anthony's in Arizona. There are more Vigils, as in the Sabaite Rite, and the Vigil literally lasts all night. I don't know the other details, but hopefully this helps. I just wanted to clarify that there is not one Monastic Rite, but multiple Monastic Rites.

Because the Studite Monastery in Constantinople was a strong defender of Orthodoxy during the Iconoclastic controversy, its usage became standard throughout Eastern Orthodoxy. The Studite Monastery combined the best of the monastic typikon with the Cathedral typikon to produce what is called the Byzantine synthesis. There are two Typikons in use throughout most of Eastern Orthodoxy. The Russians follow the Typikon from St. Sabba's monastery. The Greeks follow the Typikon of the Great Church (Constantinople) which was revised in 1888 and introduced some changes such as moving the Gospel from its traditional place before the canon of Matins until after the 8th ode. Antiochians use the Greek Typikon, but have not adopted most of the revisions of 1888. We still chant the Matins Gospel in its traditional place. You can download a version of the Greek Typikon of 1888 with footnotes noting the differences between the modern Greek typikon and the Sabbite Typikon and the changes that were made by Violakis, who was the Head Chanter at Constantinople and compiled the Greek Typikon of 1888. You can download it at almoutran.com/pdf/typikon.pdf

Fr. John W. Morris

[WPM]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

[frjohnmorris]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

[WPM]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

[frjohnmorris]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

[WPM]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

I have the time necessary to do that.

[hecma925]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

I have the time necessary to do that.

I thought you weren't living close to an Orthodox parish. 

[WPM]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

I have the time necessary to do that.

I thought you weren't living close to an Orthodox parish.  

That's true but I'm using the Prayer books at home.

[Iconodule]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

I have the time necessary to do that.

I thought you weren't living close to an Orthodox parish.  

That's true but I'm using the Prayer books at home.

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

[hecma925]

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

But WPM can read the prayers, canons, akathists.  Reading the psalms, especially if he has the time to read kathismas according to the day of the week, can be very helpful since he can't get to Church.

[Iconodule]

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

But WPM can read the prayers, canons, akathists.  Reading the psalms, especially if he has the time to read kathismas according to the day of the week, can be very helpful since he can't get to Church.

That's true. But it will certainly cut the time down.

[hecma925]

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

But WPM can read the prayers, canons, akathists.  Reading the psalms, especially if he has the time to read kathismas according to the day of the week, can be very helpful since he can't get to Church.

That's true. But it will certainly cut the time down.

And anyone can read a Typika service.  There's plenty one can do when there is no parish nearby.  It's just using time wisely, which I fail at a lot.  If WPM has 2+ hours to spend, he can accomplish quite a bit.  And that's not even reading very fast.

[WPM]

I'm prepared to spend several hours in Liturgy each Sunday.

It would take a lot longer than an hour to do a full Matins as mandated by the Typikon. Most, if not all, Eastern Orthodox parishes abbreviate Matins. Some leave out the Psalms in Vespers or abbreviate them as the Russians do when they sing "Blessed is the man...." instead of reading the entire first Katisma as mandated by the Typikon for Saturday evening Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

I think it should be about 2 hours long each Sunday before communion.

A full Matins according to the Typikon includes 3 Katisma. The Book of Psalms is divided into 20 sections called Kathisma, which means "sitting" because one sits when they are read. After each Kathisma there are Troparia, plus there are at least 2 canons, one of the Tone of the Week, one for the Saint and the Katbasia, which is canon for the season. The Beatitudes sung on a normal Sunday have troparia between the verses. Thus, I doubt that one could do everything from the beginning of Matins until Communion in less than 2 hours.

Fr. John W. Morris

I have the time necessary to do that.

I thought you weren't living close to an Orthodox parish.  

That's true but I'm using the Prayer books at home.

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

I know ... You need a Priest, Deacon, and Singers/Chanters.

[genesisone]

You can't do the liturgy by yourself.

I know ... You need a Priest, Deacon, and Singers/Chanters.

No. Not that many. I remember at least one Liturgy with only the priest and myself (chanter).

[frjohnmorris]

I suspect that the standardization of our services came about as the result of the invention of the printing press that made it possible to mass produce books containing the same text. The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice because the Turks would not let the Orthodox have their own printing press. The first printed edition of the Typikon appeared in 1545. Before that each monastery or parish had to rely on hand copied editions of the service books. It would have only natural that mistakes by individuals making the copies and other factors would have led to local variations. Printing made standardization possible.

Fr. John W. Morris 

[mike]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

[mike]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

Well, Cracow actually.

[mike]

The first printed edition of the Typikon appeared in 1545. Before that each monastery or parish had to rely on hand copied editions of the service books.

It would be 54 years after first Orthodox service books had been printed.

[frjohnmorris]

The first printed edition of the Typikon appeared in 1545. Before that each monastery or parish had to rely on hand copied editions of the service books.

It would be 54 years after first Orthodox service books had been printed.

I do not know which books were first printed. I just know about the Typikon because I edited an English translation of the Arabic version of the Greek Typikon and it has frequent notes indicating differences between it and the Typikon printed in Venice.
Regardless of what book was printed first, it stands to reason that printing introduced a degree of uniformity impossible before.

Fr. John W. Morris

[Romaios]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

Well, Cracow actually.

The Leitourgikon of Makarije, Târgoviște, 1508:



Previously he had printed an Oktoechos (1494), a Psalter (1495) and an Euchologion (1493-1495) at Cetinje in Montenegro. He learned the craft of printing in Venice...

[frjohnmorris]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

Well, Cracow actually.

The Leitourgikon of Makarije, Târgoviște, 1508:



Previously he had printed an Oktoechos (1494), a Psalter (1495) and an Euchologion (1493-1495) at Cetinje in Montenegro. He learned the craft of printing in Venice...

The first printed edition of the Greek Euchologion was printed in Venice in 1526. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euchologion#Publication

Fr. John W. Morris

[mike]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

Well, Cracow actually.

The Leitourgikon of Makarije, Târgoviște, 1508:



Previously he had printed an Oktoechos (1494), a Psalter (1495) and an Euchologion (1493-1495) at Cetinje in Montenegro. He learned the craft of printing in Venice...

Octoechos, Cracow, 1491. Clesely followed with Horologion, and both Triodions. But after the couple of years the printer was tried for heresy and stopped printing.






They verily look alike.

[frjohnmorris]

The first Orthodox service books were printed in Venice Vilnia

fixed that for you

Well, Cracow actually.

The Leitourgikon of Makarije, Târgoviște, 1508:



Previously he had printed an Oktoechos (1494), a Psalter (1495) and an Euchologion (1493-1495) at Cetinje in Montenegro. He learned the craft of printing in Venice...

Octoechos, Cracow, 1491. Clesely followed with Horologion, and both Triodions. But after the couple of years the printer was tried for heresy and stopped printing.






They verily look alike.

Who tried him for heresy? Since it was in Poland, I assume that it was the Catholic authorities as Orthodox were being persecuted by the Polish Catholic kings at that time.

Fr. John W. Morris

[mike]

Who tried him for heresy? Since it was in Poland,

Some ecclesiastical court.

I assume that it was the Catholic authorities as Orthodox were being persecuted by the Polish Catholic kings at that time.

Not really for following 100 years or so. Actually XV-XVIth centuries were not bad.