What does the Orthodox Church have to say about the Pentecostal Church

[Irenaeus07]

Well, I was invited to a Pentecostal Church service this past weekend.  It was quite interesting, they sing and dance pretty much the whole sermons.  I actually didn't think it was a service at first, I thought it was a concert.  Later I was told that is how they give service.  They speak in tongue, they believe they are endowed with the Holy Spirit. 

I am quite indifferent about what I experienced but I am just curious as to what Orthodox Church has to say about this particular church and more specifically about their methodology of spekaing in tongue and is their interpretation correct, the bible verses they use to justify it. Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians.

Thanks in advance.

[Amdetsion]

You may already know that these people were organized into the pentacostal religious group in the 1970's coming out of another protestant denom.

They function like each Sunday is the 'witness' of the Pentacost of the bible. The same exact power and experience that happend with the Apostles occur with them each Sunday they beleive. They consider this the true "Church" way of worship. A drunken sort-of praise and dance with tongues.

If you read the Acts of the Apostles you will find various opinions voiced by those who witnessed our fathers when they actually recieved the Holy Spirit. They asked them "are you drunk". It was only 9:00 am so the question was rather unwarranted.

Todays so-called 'pentacostal' have a strange religious formula. But what stands prominent is that they believe that they are the true Church and have the true Holy Spirit with them.

All protestants are heretics.

The titles of the various "churches" thye keep making up are does not change that.

The Orthodox church is the Church. WE are to struggle to work with those who are fallen away. NOT reject them.

It is good to visit such "churches" in friendship. WE must always be prepared in these cases to teach the true Church to those who are estarnged from it.

Most importantly we are not to look down on anyone. We as orthodox have to express openess to all people without placating them or undermining the true way of the Church in the process.

[serb1389]

Irenaeous07,

If you don't mind me asking...what did you mean by you were indifferent to what you experienced? 

As to your question. I really liked Dcn. Amdetsion's response, with a few exceptions.  But very concise definitions in the beginning.  Much can be learned by searching through their church web-sites as well. 

I am not sure how good your knowledge of orthodoxy is, but if it is decent you should be able to see some acute differences.  Just my 2 cents. 

[Irenaeus07]

Irenaeous07,

If you don't mind me asking...what did you mean by you were indifferent to what you experienced? 

Indifferent meaing, I don't have much say about it either good or bad except for one thing. There is an outward reality and an inward reality.  The outward reality is that they are not part of the Original church and it is not fitting for me to take knowledge from them per se.  Inwardly, God is the controller of all things in existences.  And He has allowed them to exist for a wisdom.  And while pondering over this issue, I believe outwardly they are faulty (ie outside the church,) inwardly God is keeping them within the bonds of belief in the Trinity, until we get our (Orthodox) act together.  After reading Sermon of the Mount, I truly believe that if the Orthodox Christian actually lived the Beatitudes, people would flock to the doors of the Orthodox Church in large groups, for we would be the Light of the World.  But being the first church, it is really hard for one to display humility to other Christians, knowing this fact, this will be the toughest cross for the Orthodox to bear and humility is an essential element for traveling the spiritual path. And our Lord know best.
 

As to your question. I really liked Dcn. Amdetsion's response, with a few exceptions.  But very concise definitions in the beginning.  Much can be learned by searching through their church web-sites as well. 

I am not sure how good your knowledge of orthodoxy is, but if it is decent you should be able to see some acute differences.  Just my 2 cents. 

I've only been into the Orthodox church on my own for a couple of months now. 4 months all together, two with the intention as actually wanting to be Baptized.   I remember reading but can't remember exactly who or what book, but I believe it was Kallastos Ware who mentioned something about speaking in tongue and said that it was considered the lowest gift of the Spirit.

[GabrieltheCelt]

 
  I remember reading but can't remember exactly who or what book, but I believe it was Kallastos Ware who mentioned something about speaking in tongue and said that it was considered the lowest gift of the Spirit.

Fr. Kallistos is quoting St. Paul in 1 Corinthians.  'Speaking in tongues' or 'Gifts of tongues' is taken from the Greek word glossolalia.  I won't say much about it here as it has been addressed many times already (do a quick OCNet search and you'll have some great answers.)  As for the Pentecostal Church, it's roughly a little less than 100 yrs old and grew out of sever "Holiness" movements (were we get the term "Holy Roller".) Their name refers to Pentecost when the Apostles were gifted by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.  Most Pentecostals say this is THE sign that one has the Holy Spirit, and thusly, is 'saved' (i.e. a True Christian.)  As you begin to learn more about Holy Orthodoxy, you will begin to see the multitude of errors in this heretical movement.  The Assemblies of God is one, perhaps the largest, such group.

[Quinault]

Our priest was raised as an orthodox jew. And pentacostalism was one of the stops he made on his road to orthodoxy, that and conservative baptist. I wish I could remember clearly what he had to say about it.

[jaderook]

Well, I was invited to a Pentecostal Church service this past weekend.  It was quite interesting, they sing and dance pretty much the whole sermons.

  Pentecostal churches vary greatly.  It sounds like you were at a really happy clappy one.  I was raised in the Assemblies of God and while used to singing a lot, when and if dancing occurred, it always irritated me.

 

I actually didn't think it was a service at first, I thought it was a concert.  Later I was told that is how they give service.

  Welcome to how church is done in some sectors.  It's all about entertainment and getting that next emotional high.

  They speak in tongue, they believe they are endowed with the Holy Spirit. 

I am quite indifferent about what I experienced but I am just curious as to what Orthodox Church has to say about this particular church and more specifically about their methodology of spekaing in tongue and is their interpretation correct, the bible verses they use to justify it. Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians.

Thanks in advance.

Well, the Assemblies of God believed that the initial evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues.  So, if one didn't speak in tongues, one didn't have the Holy Spirit.  I can tell you, they don't have a counter-argument for it.  As a child, I would be disturbed by the idea that there were so many professing Christians out there that didn't have the Holy Spirit in them.  I would see people pray for tongues and not get it.  Why would God be so cruel as to deny them?

Anyway, (when it isn't faked) it is an experience of giving up control of yourself to an outside force (which I am firmly convinced now is demonic).  I first did this at the age of twelve at church camp.  I had the other girls in my dorm room lay hands on me and pray for me (none of whom spoke in tongues themselves).  Once I started, I could not stop for a few hours.  It was an altered state of consciousness and it felt good.  I could do it at will after that point in time.  Of course, I also had numerous instances after that point, of having demonic encounters.  I see them now as direct result of dabbling in the occult, which is, essentially what the Pentecostal movement is; Christianity merged with occultic practices.  There is a reason why so many Pentecostals become Pagans (seems like every Pagan I meet was a Pentecostal at some point).  There was even an article on Witchvox once about how Pentecostal churches build up energy in very similar ways to pagans during their circles. (Yes, I too struggled with debating going Pagan or not once upon a time.)

I rejected tongues when I realized that the fruit of it was bad.  I had always been encouraged (I certainly wasn't discouraged) from using my private prayer language (another confusing and vaguely defined thing Pentecostals believe is separate from speaking in tongues in church) in place of praying in English if I didn't know what to pray about.  The last time I spoke in tongues I was unable to actually pray for months after.

Many times new visitors will be frightened, scared, or get a very bad feeling.  They have good reason to feel this way.  I was barely desensitized to it and I was raised in it.  I even left a Pentecostal church once that I was visiting because it freaked me (a tongue talker myself) out.

Father Seraphim Rose had a lot to say about this movement (which I agree with 100%).  However, I don't think it is probably the best thing to present to someone still there as it will likely offend them.

[Irenaeus07]

I won't say much about it here as it has been addressed many times already (do a quick OCNet search and you'll have some great answers.) 

I did a search and did not find much. Perhaps you could point me to the thread or soemthing.  I would greatly appreciate it.

 

   Welcome to how church is done in some sectors.  It's all about entertainment and getting that next emotional high.

Well that is my honest impression of my experience of the Pentecostal Church that is merely emotional experience and not a spiritual experience, but after reading somethings from Fr Kallistos on spirituality, I stopped accusing people of emotionalism.  This is another reason I felt indifferent about the experience.

Father Seraphim Rose had a lot to say about this movement (which I agree with 100%).  However, I don't think it is probably the best thing to present to someone still there as it will likely offend them.

Where can I find this material by Father Seraphim Rose???  I am interested in learning more about this as it seems I am surrounded by alot of people who are part of the Pentecostal church.

[GabrieltheCelt]

I did a search and did not find much. Perhaps you could point me to the thread or soemthing.  I would greatly appreciate it.

Here are a few sites with great info followed by some articles on the OC.net.  The first article is an exerpt from The Truth of Our Faith by Fr. Ilie Cleopa of Romania.  There's been talk of him being canonized someday soon.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_glossalalia.aspx

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7112.asp

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6848.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2660.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7340.0.html

[Irenaeus07]

Here are a few sites with great info followed by some articles on the OC.net.  The first article is an exerpt from The Truth of Our Faith by Fr. Ilie Cleopa of Romania.  There's been talk of him being canonized someday soon.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_glossalalia.aspx

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7112.asp

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6848.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2660.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7340.0.html

Awesome, this is exactly what I was looking for, I greatly appreciate it.

 May the Lord give you the best in this Life and the Next.

[serb1389]

Indifferent meaing, I don't have much say about it either good or bad except for one thing. There is an outward reality and an inward reality.  The outward reality is that they are not part of the Original church and it is not fitting for me to take knowledge from them per se.  Inwardly, God is the controller of all things in existences.  And He has allowed them to exist for a wisdom.  And while pondering over this issue, I believe outwardly they are faulty (ie outside the church,) inwardly God is keeping them within the bonds of belief in the Trinity, until we get our (Orthodox) act together.  After reading Sermon of the Mount, I truly believe that if the Orthodox Christian actually lived the Beatitudes, people would flock to the doors of the Orthodox Church in large groups, for we would be the Light of the World.  But being the first church, it is really hard for one to display humility to other Christians, knowing this fact, this will be the toughest cross for the Orthodox to bear and humility is an essential element for traveling the spiritual path. And our Lord know best.
 
I've only been into the Orthodox church on my own for a couple of months now. 4 months all together, two with the intention as actually wanting to be Baptized.   I remember reading but can't remember exactly who or what book, but I believe it was Kallastos Ware who mentioned something about speaking in tongue and said that it was considered the lowest gift of the Spirit.

I wonder if the outward should mirror the inward, like the parable of the washing of the cup that Jesus told the the Pharisees?  Let me know what you think of that. 

You speaking about the Beatitudes is VERY VERY VERY fortuitous right now because we are learning this concept in one of my classes, as a model of pastoral care. 

How would the beatitudes help you, or what factor do you think they would play in a church...realistically.  If someone came to my office as a priest and their child died, how would the beatitudes help THEM? 

Just wondering if you could help me connect the dots, as you already seem to have an idea regarding the beatitudes that I certainly do not yet. 

Thanks! 

[DennyB]

Well, I was invited to a Pentecostal Church service this past weekend.  It was quite interesting, they sing and dance pretty much the whole sermons.  I actually didn't think it was a service at first, I thought it was a concert.  Later I was told that is how they give service.  They speak in tongue, they believe they are endowed with the Holy Spirit. 

I am quite indifferent about what I experienced but I am just curious as to what Orthodox Church has to say about this particular church and more specifically about their methodology of spekaing in tongue and is their interpretation correct, the bible verses they use to justify it. Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians.

Thanks in advance.

It has been my understanding after doing a little reading that what happened at Pentacost was'nt some "freakish phenomenon" but what was actually happening is ,God was giving the Apostles "teaching authority",they were so to speak given "the Deposit of Faith", with God the Holy Spirit being the Origin of that "Deposit" to proclaim,and also the ability to speak in other "known tongues",they were speaking "The Word of God", Apostolic Tradition,and "The Gospel" has it's origin here. I could be way off base on this but this is my opinion.

[Irenaeus07]

I wonder if the outward should mirror the inward, like the parable of the washing of the cup that Jesus told the the Pharisees?  Let me know what you think of that. 

That depends on the context.  If you are talking about you, yes you would want your outward actions to be righteous as well as your inward actions (ie the heart).

In terms of the world, like the example above, then I do not know.

You speaking about the Beatitudes is VERY VERY VERY fortuitous right now because we are learning this concept in one of my classes, as a model of pastoral care. 

How would the beatitudes help you, or what factor do you think they would play in a church...realistically.  If someone came to my office as a priest and their child died, how would the beatitudes help THEM? 

If I lived out the beatitudes, I believe I would reach Theosis. 

St Peter of Damaskos says, "All the Beatitudes make man a god by grace; he becomes gentle, longs for righteousness, is charitable, dispassonate, a peacemaker, and endures every pain with joy out of love for God and for his fellow man." (Philokalia volume 3 page 98)

In terms of the church, and that specific person, I don't know, and would have to reflect on it.  But it seems like St Peter of Damaskos has answered both questions in a general sense in terms of specifics, it would require some thought..  He answered the question of people with the dead child, "and endures every pain with joy out of love for God."  For the death of a child would be painful.

And our Lord knows best.

[serb1389]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!) 

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care. 

[NicholasMyra]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!)  

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care.  

Father,

With some people, your only avenue of communication is via what they want to talk about. 

[serb1389]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!)  

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care.  

Father,

With some people, your only avenue of communication is via what they want to talk about. 

yah I tried that as well.  It was a lot of "uh huh, but what about john 3:16" and then I talk about that & then "uh huh but what about 1 corinthians", etc. etc. etc. 

I was getting very frustrated.  I wasn't even trying to change her mind or God forbid "convert" her, but rather just trying to have her think outside the box for a moment. 

just looking for some help with all this.  it was very frustrating. 

[Ioannis Climacus]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!) 

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care. 

Father,

With some people, your only avenue of communication is via what they want to talk about. 

yah I tried that as well.  It was a lot of "uh huh, but what about john 3:16" and then I talk about that & then "uh huh but what about 1 corinthians", etc. etc. etc. 

I was getting very frustrated.  I wasn't even trying to change her mind or God forbid "convert" her, but rather just trying to have her think outside the box for a moment. 

just looking for some help with all this.  it was very frustrating. 

While I am no master of proselytism, I always talk about purification, illumination, and glorification. Perhaps you could correct her wrong interpretations of Scripture? I would talk about the "tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1) in relation to theoria. I would also bring up the necessity of an illumined nous in salvation and reality and origin of prelest

[Ionnis]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!) 

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care. 

Father,

With some people, your only avenue of communication is via what they want to talk about. 

yah I tried that as well.  It was a lot of "uh huh, but what about john 3:16" and then I talk about that & then "uh huh but what about 1 corinthians", etc. etc. etc. 

I was getting very frustrated.  I wasn't even trying to change her mind or God forbid "convert" her, but rather just trying to have her think outside the box for a moment. 

just looking for some help with all this.  it was very frustrating. 

While I am no master of proselytism, I always talk about purification, illumination, and glorification. Perhaps you could correct her wrong interpretations of Scripture? I would talk about the "tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1) in relation to theoria. I would also bring up the necessity of an illumined nous in salvation and reality and origin of prelest

You have to start where people are.  Lofty theological conversations may convert a few, but not the average person. 

[Ioannis Climacus]

I had an experience with a Greek Pentecostal today & made me think of this thread (4 years ago!!) 

Anyone have any advice on a topic that would get a pentecostal person to think outside the box?  I tried discussing incarnational theology, she didn't really seem to care. 

Father,

With some people, your only avenue of communication is via what they want to talk about. 

yah I tried that as well.  It was a lot of "uh huh, but what about john 3:16" and then I talk about that & then "uh huh but what about 1 corinthians", etc. etc. etc. 

I was getting very frustrated.  I wasn't even trying to change her mind or God forbid "convert" her, but rather just trying to have her think outside the box for a moment. 

just looking for some help with all this.  it was very frustrating. 

While I am no master of proselytism, I always talk about purification, illumination, and glorification. Perhaps you could correct her wrong interpretations of Scripture? I would talk about the "tongues of angels" (1 Cor 13:1) in relation to theoria. I would also bring up the necessity of an illumined nous in salvation and reality and origin of prelest

You have to start where people are.  Lofty theological conversations may convert a few, but not the average person. 

I definitely see what you are saying, but I think something can be said for deeper theological language. While it won't convert everyone, many people (even those with almost no concept of theology) I have met are fascinated by such things (as they have never heard salvation described and presented in such a way). It often provokes curiosity and more questions (which gives me a chance to stick a Romanides book in their hands before they make it out the door ) .

But I see your point. I really does depend on the individual in question.

[leap of faith]

Father, I was received into Holy Orthodoxy a mere month ago, following a year of preparation as a catechumen, and have no place sharing my meager thoughts.  Prior to my conversion from Methodism, I spent years studying Christian apologetics with an emphasis of those from different faith backgrounds.  Frustrated with the buffet of protestantism, I was confronted by a wise cradle Orthodox woman.  The effective direction she took with me was in regard to Church history and the history of the Bible.  Like many others, I was quite unaware of "where we got the Bible" and I knew very little about "pre-Luther" Christianity.  Like many, I treated the Bible as if it simply fell from the sky one day and was mine to understand and study to the best of my individual ability. She taught me to understand that one does not lift Holy Scripture out of context with the intention of proving one's position but, rather, viewing the scriptures as a whole.  Furthermore, she provided me with the sources to understand how the New Testament scriptures, in particular, were given to us by the Church...the same Church which exists yet today...and, therefore contain the language of the Church which can only be understood from within the Church.  (I remember her once asking me if the Holy Spirit was bi-polar.  "Of course not!," I responded.  "Then why do so many of you have so many different understandings?"  It was a "gotcha" moment.) Why would one want to ignore the unchanging understanding and interpretations of the Early Church Fathers once it is realized that its all available to read if...IF...we are truly seeking truth and not our own desires?  History, history, history and then some more history.  She kept banging it into my head (literally) and, it took awhile, but it finally got through my thick skull.  I don't know...just a thought.  It worked with me.  Getting into scripture wars merely seems to bring a person to dig their heels in deeper, as we Protestants are accustomed to running into a plethora of varying interpretations and simply assume that's the way it works...and they are all treated equally because the HISTORY of those interpretations and the history of their churches are rarely, if ever, addressed or thought to matter.  I would ask her what her understanding is of the origin of the New Testament...if she would agree that those who walked within the first generations of the Apostles would be more likely to have understood what they taught...if she understands that the authors of the NT spoke as well as wrote and, which came first?  Talking or writing? and so on.  Get your finger on her pulse of understanding by asking questions and launch from there. May the Lord bless your words and bring about the opening of her eyes and ears.  Breaking the bonds of delusion takes awhile.  Some of us, like myself, take longer than others.  But once one begins to see the history and cohesiveness of Orthodoxy and finally begins to experience it, put a fork in us.  We're done...and thankful beyond words to be finally home.

[Maximum Bob]

If I may venture my opinion, it is a humble opinion, but it is also the opinion of one who is recently departed from being a minister in a church that you could easily label as Pentecostal or at least Charismatic. - You may try to approach this from the angle of looking at what the early church was really like.

Pentecostals and other Charismatics are always drawn back to that infant Church, as previously stated by someone they take their emphasis from the 2nd chapter of Acts and from 1st Corinthians. They see these as being basically the only guide to what the church was like.

Remember first they are mostly coming from a sola scriptura angle so for the most part they don't have any other reference to what a church service was like. Sure they have the whole New Testament but the gospels are pre-Church, Acts is more about the missionary journeys of Paul than about actual church actions and, I think, only one reference to a service. The letters are more about behavior, doctrine except that one part of 1 Corinthians. We see liturgy in Revelation but to a Pentecostal or any Protestant, generally speaking that's too wrapped in vision, symbolism and Heaven to have any practical meaning for a Church Service.

Second, as Pentecostals/Charismatics they are coming denominationally from a Protestant and therefore an anti-Catholic heritage. Some are, of course far more overt in this, but even they very nice "God loves everyone even the Catholic", types still have this in their history. Therefore, anything that looks Catholic must be a corruption. Even those who have read some of the Church Fathers and seen the references to Liturgy would likely view these as things put upon the Church by that "evil" Emperor Constantine. Or if not by him (because they actually read enough to see that it was there earlier than him) then the Church must have fallen off the rails as soon as the Apostles died, because in no way could it legitimately in any form resemble the "Roman" church.

To Pentecostals the early church and the "true church" has always met in small hidden groups in peoples homes praying, listening to someone preach, and singing songs. So it was in the 2nd chapter of Acts so it was for their own founders around 1900 and so it must have been for those "true church members" who spent all those centuries evading the persecution, first of the Roman Catholics, and then of the non-Spirit filled Protestants. See it wasn't Martin Luther who really restored the Church in their view, yes he gave back "salvation by faith alone", but he didn't have the Spirit. That didn't happen til about 100 years ago. That, in their view, was the true restoration of the Church. (Unless your one of those who believe it's still being restored, gotta get that full 5 fold ministry and all that.)

What they fail to see, despite the fact that many are very very pro Jewish, is the fact that the Church at that earlist time wasn't the Church. It was a Jewish sect, and the Jews both in the Synagogue and in Temple were very liturgical. Once one understands this then introduce the Church Fathers, and you can begin to see in their writtings how the early church was a continuation of that Judaism, now with the addition of  the Messiah. You can also then see how the modern Orthodox Church is a continuation of that. But without making that connection, they will go on forever seeing the early church as something other than what it actually was and as a result of that anything that you say will be wrong because your one of those poor deceived, corrupted, descendants of Constantine.

At least that's my angle on it of course like anything human I'm sure it wont be anywhere near this simple, but perhaps its a start.

[Achronos]

Maximum Bob thank you for sharing your opinion.

What they fail to see, despite the fact that many are very very pro Jewish, is the fact that the Church at that earlist time wasn't the Church. It was a Jewish sect, and the Jews both in the Synagogue and in Temple were very liturgical. Once one understands this then introduce the Church Fathers, and you can begin to see in their writtings how the early church was a continuation of that Judaism, now with the addition of  the Messiah. You can also then see how the modern Orthodox Church is a continuation of that. But without making that connection, they will go on forever seeing the early church as something other than what it actually was and as a result of that anything that you say will be wrong because your one of those poor deceived, corrupted, descendants of Constantine.

+1

[serb1389]

Maximum Bob & Leap of Faith, thank you both, you have been very informative. 

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