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Author Topic: Papal Indult for Tridentine Mass  (Read 9095 times) Average Rating: 0
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Byzantine Clint
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« on: June 19, 2003, 11:54:24 PM »

I heard that In October the Pope is going to issue a Universal Indult to all priests in the Roman Communion to be able to do Tridentine Mass without the permission [discretion] of their Bishops.

Is this true, or is it just a rumor?  What do you people think of such a thing? Huh
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2003, 12:05:47 AM »

I don't think most Orthodox think much about Latin liturgical issues, but those that do would probably like that initiative.

anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2003, 12:21:23 AM »

I have heard the same story.  I can't find it anymore on my usual news nets.

If it is true, I suspect it is this Pope's last stand to try to restore some kind of authentic Christianity to the RCC.

I don't say that with glee or derision - it's just my honest assessment.
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2003, 12:24:54 AM »

It'd be great if it's true - I have no idea if it is.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2003, 03:46:58 AM »

It'd be great if it's true - I have no idea if it is.

Given JP II's age and health, isn't this all moot if JP II doesn't live until October and his successor, whoever he may be, is not particularly impressed by things "Tridentine?"  Sounds like wishful thinking by the followers of the Tridentine movement to me.

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2003, 08:01:31 AM »

If we know that it's going to be issued in October, then why isn't it being issued now? Also, I just can't see the Pope stepping on the magisterium like that. Sorry-- I have to agree that this is just wishful thinking.

Also, the irony (at least in the USA) about this is that the Tridentine mass is probably of most interest to super High Church Epsicopalians (because of all that old music). It's not a magic bullet that will cure the ills of American Catholicism.
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2003, 10:51:15 AM »

Brother Hypo,

I am a wishful thinker, not only for the Liturgy, but to move the altars, remodel those ugly modern Churches etc.

Wishful to return to Tradition.

James
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 10:57:06 AM »

Brother Hypo,

I am a wishful thinker, not only for the Liturgy, but to move the altars, remodel those ugly modern Churches etc.

Wishful to return to Tradition.

James

Brother James, as much as I sympathize with you (only because you're half-Polish, of course!   Grin ), I don't think you'll see the clock turned back to what was before.  No, unfortunately, you'll have to live with what you have.  Dreaming isn't going to help your situation.

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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 11:06:56 AM »

Brother Hypo,

I am a wishful thinker, not only for the Liturgy, but to move the altars, remodel those ugly modern Churches etc.

Wishful to return to Tradition.

James

Brother James, as much as I sympathize with you (only because you're half-Polish, of course!   Grin ), I don't think you'll see the clock turned back to what was before.  No, unfortunately, you'll have to live with what you have.  Dreaming isn't going to help your situation.

Hypo-Ortho

Many of the RC churches I visit in the NYC area with my wife are very nice.  In fact, I even "get something" out of the Mass (even though it's not about my feelings).  At our favorite Church, a descendent of Slovak immigrants (which makes my born-in-Slovakia wife happy!), the Mass is almost entirely chanted, the priest wears the correct vestments, etc etc.  If only they would switch the altar around, that would be a Novus Ordo one could enjoy.

There are, from first-hand accounts I have gathered via email over the years, probably about 10 places in the US where Novus Ordo priests celebrate on a freestanding altar facing, with the people, towards the tabernacle/altar.  I would enjoy seeing that.

But I share Hypo's pessimissim to an extent.  Especially when the Vatican is so good at messing up its own press releases.  Wink  You all know I am an "evil ecumenist" but still we have to deal with reality.  Cheesy

Talk to you all later!

anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2003, 11:42:37 AM »

My Dear Orthodox Brothers,

My "wishful thinkings" are not dreams, but are prayers of faith to restore  and set right the Roman Church .

No, they are not dreams.

james
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2003, 12:48:41 PM »

<<Also, the irony (at least in the USA) about this is that the Tridentine mass is probably of most interest to super High Church Epsicopalians (because of all that old music). It's not a magic bullet that will cure the ills of American Catholicism.>>

Keble,

    It's of interest to those who went to Tridentine mass a mere 33 years ago. One of the "ills" of American Catholicism is liturgy and the abandoning of the traditional Catholic faith--lex orandi, lex credeni. Perhaps, there can never be an undoing of history, but there can certainly be faithful renewal a la Tridentine. I believe others have pointed out that the example of the FSSP shows that there are people who don't want it to succeed because it would be widely popular. Christ will certainly come and separate the wheat from the chaff.

Matt
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2003, 01:21:46 PM »

Brother Frobisher,

Well said indeed , their are many who want to restore the Tridentine Liturgy, but I fear the U.S of A  Bishops have a liberal majority, thats exactly what they did to the NA-Bible which the Vatican quickly stopped. I will not return to a Church where there is no modest dress, head coverings, altar girls, altar position, and respect for Holy Tradition.

james

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 01:36:01 PM by Jakub » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2003, 01:54:11 PM »

Brother Frobisher,

Well said indeed , their are many who want to restore the Tridentine Liturgy, but I fear the U.S of A  Bishops have a liberal majority, thats exactly what they did to the NA-Bible which the Vatican quickly stopped. I will not return to a Church where there is no modest dress, head coverings, altar girls, altar position, and respect for Holy Tradition.

james

Brother James, with a few possible exceptions, aren't virtually all the American Catholic bishops, liberal or conservative or whatever, appointees of none other than JP II himself?  Certainly all the present American cardinals are hand-picked by JP II.  JP II is the captain of the RC ship, and you know the saying about a sinking ship.... :'(

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2003, 02:16:50 PM »

Brother Hypo,

I am a wishful thinker, not only for the Liturgy, but to move the altars, remodel those ugly modern Churches etc.

Wishful to return to Tradition.

Well, there are modern churches out there  that may be a little strange, but they do manage to do the Novus Ordo with dignity and reverence. And I've seen a lot of ugly buildings that were built before 1970.

The problems with the American Catholic church are not going to be solved by going back to the old rite, or moving the altar, or making the buildings less ugly. The illusion is fostered by those who do care about liturgy and want the old rite back not just out of nostalgia for a fantasy golden age, but because they care for it and carry it out lovingly.

In 1970 I was ten. I'd bet that for people who or my age or younger, the Tridentine rite doesn't have the same meaning as it would for those who are a decade or more older than I. And the message is especially mixed for those younger people who get subjected to the way the mass was really conducted in the '50s and '60s. To signify reverence and glory, it must be done reverently and gloriously, and that was not typically how it was done.

A general indult to do the old rite would be nice-- in effect, the 1979 BCP did that very thing. But I think it would be used to advantage only in places that already do the newer rite well. For a lot of other places it would simply become a spite mass.
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2003, 03:15:30 PM »

Keble<<The illusion is fostered by those who do care about liturgy and want the old rite back not just out of nostalgia for a fantasy golden age, but because they care for it and carry it out lovingly.>>

If they carry it out lovingly and care for it, then why is it an illusion? Did not King David say that he would have his "right hand lose its cunning" if he ever forgot Jerusalem (Psalm 136)?

I know a lot of young people who would love the valour of the old rite. Not just fanatics like me, but even my co-worker, 23, who has left the Church and lives a secular life. She remarked the other day that, "The new churches are ugly." And even though she was raised Catholic, she said, "I've never really been exposed to religion."

This story is true for another friend of mine who has left the Church for eastern "religious systems." He and I used to listen to Gregorian Chant in his car and decry the protestantism at his church--he had a part in introducing me to the Catholic Church in high school. What a sad story.

Liturgical renewal is essential. If we American Catholics truly believe that at the liturgy, Christ is truly present on the altar, then the liturgy should give reverence. Lex Orandi, Lex Credeni.

I do not advocate a mere return to the '50s, especially when the Catholic Church was unfair to the East. I don't know what needs to be done. Only God knows for sure.


Hypo,

   I agree about JP2 being the captain of the ship, but he's not nearly as powerful as the protestants think. I am somewhat disheartened that he was at Vatican II and has been Pope since 1978, and the liturgy and holy days haven't come back. It's going to take more than a man--even the Pope--to save God's People.

Jakub,

   Hang in there, brother!

Matt
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2003, 03:44:18 PM »

Bro Hypo,

Please give the Bishop of Rome a break, after all he's a fellow Polski. Being a poker fan,(Lord forgive my sin) I must admit JPII needs to play with the cards dealt, however if you have only deuces to pick from. It is time for disciplinary action for the "Shepards of the Flock" in the US, pull the reins in, cleanse the Priesthood and Bishops.

If he does not, I fear the Church will be really rocked and will not recover.

You are correct, it is JPII's watch and he will be held accountable.

Pokoj,
james, of the Old School


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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2003, 05:05:56 PM »

Keble<<The illusion is fostered by those who do care about liturgy and want the old rite back not just out of nostalgia for a fantasy golden age, but because they care for it and carry it out lovingly.>>

If they carry it out lovingly and care for it, then why is it an illusion? Did not King David say that he would have his "right hand lose its cunning" if he ever forgot Jerusalem (Psalm 136)?

I see that I was unclear.

The illusion is that the good liturgy of those who love it is going to be carried over to the rest of the church simply because the old rites are carried over. I have to doubt that.

The Novus Ordo rite doesn't force people to do bad liturgy. I say that because the 1979 BCP doesn't force people to do bad liturgy either. Well, at least it doesn't if you don't use Prayer C. Gregorian chant is a prime example of this. There's nothing that keeps you from using it with Novus Ordo; Episcopalians had it in 1940 and they still have it now, and they have Anglican chant which fits right along side it. And they use them both, although there is a Catholic-influenced party that doesn't want to.

The thing is that 20-40 year olds who hear the spiritual power in chanting aren't running parishes. 50+ year olds are, and for them it means the old droning services that nobody really paid any attention to. So they won't do it; instead they're going "fix" things with "contemporary" music. Only they don't know how to do good liturgy, so they drone on with "praise songs" instead of chant.

Liturgical fantasies are common. I see a lot of Anglican fantasizing about Orthodox liturgy (by which they really mean Russian liturgy) which fades in the cold light of experiencing actual Russian liturgy. Everyone fantasizes about their respective medieval liturgies. The common RC fantasy seems to be that, by going back to the old rite, they can make the '60s and '70s unhappen.

Don't misunderstand me to think I would oppose use of the Tridentine Rite. It just seems to me that, of itself, it is capable of bringing about the great revival that some clearly expect it to bring forth.

After all, James Pike used the 1928 BCP.
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2003, 10:36:46 PM »

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The illusion is that the good liturgy of those who love it is going to be carried over to the rest of the church simply because the old rites are carried over. I have to doubt that.

I understand that but believe if the doctrinal content of the rite has the full backing of the church as an authoritative statement of that church, then restoration can happen.

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Gregorian chant is a prime example of this. There's nothing that keeps you from using it with Novus Ordo; Episcopalians had it in 1940 and they still have it now, and they have Anglican chant which fits right along side it. And they use them both, although there is a Catholic-influenced party that doesn't want to.

Right, the Hymnal 1940 has wonderful chant in it. I'm confused by what you mean by 'Catholic-influenced party'; surely you don't mean the longstanding Anglo-Catholic movement? Do you mean the minority influenced by the charismatic movement and Cursillo, modern RC things?

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The thing is that 20-40 year olds who hear the spiritual power in chanting aren't running parishes. 50+ year olds are, and for them it means the old droning services that nobody really paid any attention to. So they won't do it; instead they're going "fix" things with "contemporary" music. Only they don't know how to do good liturgy, so they drone on with "praise songs" instead of chant.

Yes, that's the generation the ugliness and dissent are coming from.

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Liturgical fantasies are common. I see a lot of Anglican fantasizing about Orthodox liturgy (by which they really mean Russian liturgy) which fades in the cold light of experiencing actual Russian liturgy. Everyone fantasizes about their respective medieval liturgies. The common RC fantasy seems to be that, by going back to the old rite, they can make the '60s and '70s unhappen.

Of course I love the externals of Russian Orthodoxy as much as your Anglican examples do but also see the shortcomings in practice. What turned them off?
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2003, 09:35:07 AM »

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The illusion is that the good liturgy of those who love it is going to be carried over to the rest of the church simply because the old rites are carried over. I have to doubt that.

I understand that but believe if the doctrinal content of the rite has the full backing of the church as an authoritative statement of that church, then restoration can happen.

Well, I don't think restoration can happen. Nobody wants a real restoration anyway. They want a fantasy world in which children respected their elders, outward piety was observed, organists played their old favorite hymns, abortion wasn't an issue, father (and Father) knew best, nuns knew how to dress.....

What's missing from this is acknowledgement of the very great derangements that existed in the world, and the church, and most especially in the liturgy. What they could get could be a recovery. They could get an American Catholic version of the Oxford Movement, a reform which would reach back into the past and recover what was good, hopefully transforming it in the light of what has advanced and improved. The sense I get is that the various movements don't see this. They don't see that (a) going back in rites isn't going to make the church go back in time, and that (b) even if it did, some of the worst problems were already there anyway.

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Gregorian chant is a prime example of this. There's nothing that keeps you from using it with Novus Ordo; Episcopalians had it in 1940 and they still have it now, and they have Anglican chant which fits right along side it. And they use them both, although there is a Catholic-influenced party that doesn't want to.

Right, the Hymnal 1940 has wonderful chant in it. I'm confused by what you mean by 'Catholic-influenced party'; surely you don't mean the longstanding Anglo-Catholic movement? Do you mean the minority influenced by the charismatic movement and Cursillo, modern RC things?

No. The Anglo-Catholics are firmly entrenched in the hymnal and are never going to be pried loose-- how else do you explain including the medieval chant for "All Glory, Laud and Honor" in the hymnal?

From what I see, it's Cursillo that is the source of this. Cursillo, for those of you who don't know about it, is a program which is designed to teach a system of spiritual disciplines. It was devised by a group of Spanish bishops in (if I remember correctly) the '40s and has been "given" across denominational lines several times. It has (for our purposes) three components: an initial instruction program, an ongoing series of meetings, and the training of those who have been in the program to teach others. The discipline it teaches is sound and isn't the source of the problem.

The problem is the way the course is given. Each diocese has its own program, and the instruction program (the "little course") is given in a retreat. I can explain this in more detail if people are insterested, but essentially what happens is that people get caught up in the love-bombing and intensity of the the weekend and it is this that they want to take home with them. And part of that weekend is a lot of Catholic music from the St. Louis J-boys and other folk-rock/camp-song stuff.

Then they get back to their parish and come down off the high. So they want to recover the experience, and the way to do that is to try to reproduce it in church. And the easiest thing that can be done about this is to try to get the traditional hymnody thrown out and replaced by American Catholic church music.

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Liturgical fantasies are common. I see a lot of Anglican fantasizing about Orthodox liturgy (by which they really mean Russian liturgy) which fades in the cold light of experiencing actual Russian liturgy. Everyone fantasizes about their respective medieval liturgies. The common RC fantasy seems to be that, by going back to the old rite, they can make the '60s and '70s unhappen.

Of course I love the externals of Russian Orthodoxy as much as your Anglican examples do but also see the shortcomings in practice. What turned them off?

Turning off isn't so much the issue. It's that people don't tend to have much-- or even any-- experience of actual Orthodox liturgy. Their picture comes from romanticized photographs in the National Geographic and stories they've heard about Russian practices; it's a Woebegonograd land where all the priests are godly, all the monks are wise, and all the babushkas are above average in their piety. They haven't been to St. John Obscurovitch in the real Lake Woebegon in August, where all the windows are open because the weather is a foretaste of the fires of hell, where the priest is droning on endlessly and off-key (and everyone knows, because the priest just sang, "and now let us conclude our prayers to the Lord", that there is still 30 minutes to go), where the walls are white because they still haven't, after fifty years, managed to scrape the money together to finish them, except for this incredibly ugly icon of the Theotokos looming over the iconostasis which was painted by some parishioner out of some artistic vainglory, where the icons are obviously printed cards and the ones closest to the window are faded from the summer sun, where the choir sings feebly and there is one geriatric bass and no tenors (except for maybe a couple of women); where people are milling about in the service and some poor woman (who married into the church) is trying to keep her four year old under control while her husband (an immigrant) is out on the steps having a smoke (they don't have a nursery because that would be "Protestant"). And never mind the Greek church in the next town (St. Knotrarios) which is the church that the Greeks don't go to, and where the music isn't Tschaikovsky and Bortniansky, but this wierd chanting that is slightly less accessible than Tibetan Buddhism, and where the ambulances have shown up three times at Pascha when somebody dropped a lighted candle on someone else.

The point is not to denegrate these parishes. Everyone in the Episcopal Church knows of one parish where the liturgy is interminable, a second where it is abominable, and they've all heard stories of places where it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. The point is that their National Geographic picture of the Russian church doesn't have parishes like these.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2003, 11:19:54 AM »

Keble,

I take exception with the " 50 ish " are running the parishes " if applied to RC Churches, which is very untrue. They are being led by 20-40 year olds who want the " Contemporary Protestant Christian " music.  No my friend, there are few my age , Traditional RC's leading any parish in the US.

I've worked longer then these 20 yr olds have been alive, and you tell me they know Tradition ? What are you smoking ?

james
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2003, 11:26:09 AM »

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What they could get could be a recovery. They could get an American Catholic version of the Oxford Movement, a reform which would reach back into the past and recover what was good, hopefully transforming it in the light of what has advanced and improved.

I'm cool with that.

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The sense I get is that the various movements don't see this.


You may be right!

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No. The Anglo-Catholics are firmly entrenched in the hymnal and are never going to be pried loose-- how else do you explain including the medieval chant for "All Glory, Laud and Honor" in the hymnal?

Good. BTW, I think Healey Willan's simple music is wonderful for a Mass in English.

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From what I see, it's Cursillo that is the source of this.

A-ha! Thought that's what you meant.

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...essentially what happens is that people get caught up in the love-bombing and intensity of the the weekend and it is this that they want to take home with them.

I went on a junior version of Cursillo at one or two removes, a 'Search' weekend, when I was a teenager, and while I see the dangers with the love-bombing, etc., it actually was life-changing therapeutic for me. Of course I never really bought into the low-church liturgics, though. And in the end I think that was proved to be right: high church is in part the same en theos joy (not 'enthusiasm' in the Ronnie Knox sense, a danger you seem aware of in this stuff) but in a deeper, lasting way.

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a lot of Catholic music from the St. Louis J-boys and other folk-rock/camp-song stuff

Even if one likes the genre, it's 100% unliturgical, 'devotional' stuff - just like the soppy 1890s hymns that used to decorate Low Mass - so to call it Catholic has a highly ironic ring to me with a slightly sour note as well.

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It's that people don't tend to have much-- or even any-- experience of actual Orthodox liturgy. Their picture comes from romanticized photographs in the National Geographic and stories they've heard about Russian practices

I get it - building a castle in the air, never having experienced a real working castle with cold-water baths and no comfy central heating. I wouldn't totally knock secondhand 'first contact' like National Geographic and literature - such helped get me started religiously when I was a teenager, FWIW - but of course I see your point!

BTW, 'what got me started' wasn't just fantasizing. To their credit (or blame, depending on your POV) a big reason I never could buy into Novus Ordo-type stuff, and still don't, is that when I was 12 I got to experience traditional, Godward liturgical worship firsthand at a not-high but conservative Episcopal church that had Anglican-chant Morning Prayer as the main service most of the time, the altar against the east wall, a Communion rail that was used, and nothing but the 1928 Prayer Book and the Hymnal 1940. Liturgically it wasn't high but the Sunday-school teaching was. Even though the rest of the Episcopal Church had women 'priests' by that point, I didn't know of it until years later. (I thought at the time the then-new Continuing movement was simply about the old Prayer Book.) Discovering Anglo-Catholicism, Tridentine Roman Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy later on simply built on that foundation. (The Novus Ordo was nothing but an annoying distraction.) So from an early age I considered myself connected to the great tradition even before I learnt what most of that tradition is.

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it's a Woebegonograd land where all the priests are godly, all the monks are wise, and all the babushkas are above average in their piety.

LOL, brilliant! -Æ-+-¦-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-è.

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They haven't been to St. John Obscurovitch in the real Lake Woebegon in August

I love it!

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where all the windows are open because the weather is a foretaste of the fires of hell, where the priest is droning on endlessly and off-key (and everyone knows, because the priest just sang, "and now let us conclude our prayers to the Lord", that there is still 30 minutes to go)

Yep, you've been. LOL. If the part I italicized isn't already on my Top Ten Signs You Might Be Russian Orthodox page it should be.

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where the icons are obviously printed cards

To get serious for a moment I've got nothing against such - that's what my own icons are. Mother Thecla in England once wrote a book in which she mentioned paper icons, saying while technically they're 'icons of icons' (though I'd say if they're blessed, they're icons, period), if they've been prayed with for 50 years, who's to say they're not real icons? (Echoes of The Velveteen Rabbit?)

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where the choir sings feebly and there is one geriatric bass and no tenors (except for maybe a couple of women);

LOL - you've been to my old church!

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where people are milling about in the service

Now that doesn't offend me! It's part of the charm - the balance of the wonderful extreme ritualism in the sanctuary ('in the altar' in good Russian Orthodox parlance) and the wonderful, home(l)y feeling among the congregation. The church is there for people on several levels, whether one is prepared to receive the Sacrament that day or if one is barely practising and has dropped in to light a candle at a favorite icon or get one's ration of holy water for the year.

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and some poor woman (who married into the church) is trying to keep her four year old under control while her husband (an immigrant) is out on the steps having a smoke (they don't have a nursery because that would be "Protestant").

What can I say? That stuff really happens, and historically not only EOs do it - ethnic RCs have done that too. Of course in a Russian church the guy having a smoke wouldn't and couldn't go to Communion that day!

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And never mind the Greek church in the next town (St. Kontrarios)

Again, LOL, brilliant - St Kontrarios! Sorry, Greeks and Greek Orthodox converts, that's pretty much what I've done - never mind the Greeks, they're a law unto themselves.

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which is the church that the Greeks don't go to

Based on what I can tell at a distance, totally true.

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and where the music isn't Tchaikovsky and Bortniansky, but this wierd chanting that is slightly less accessible than Tibetan Buddhism

True again - Russian music, obviously based on polyphony and German chorales, is more accessible to Western traditional Catholic ears. Chacon a son gout.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2003, 02:06:59 PM by Serge » Logged

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2003, 11:47:11 AM »

Now if the above exchange between Keble and Serge doesn't come across as a conversation between Dr. FRAZIER Crane and his brother Dr. Niles Crane discussing art or a fine wine!  LOL!   Even with Serge using Frazier's French accent thrown in for good measure! Cheesy   Grin Roll Eyes   Or else the two of them could be Mrs. Bucket's (pronounced "Bouquet" of course, from the Brit TV sitcom "Keeping Up Appearances" on Sat. night PBS!) sons (she only has one son whom we've never met at present, but Keble and Serge could aptly make two).  I love it (to quote Serge)!  I'm in stitches!    Tongue Roll Eyes

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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2003, 11:56:59 AM »

We could be Sideshow Bob Terwilliger and his brother too. LOL.
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2003, 12:42:06 PM »

Serge,

Just made a visit to your site & blog and I was quite impressed, especially with your Icon corner, added your links to my favorites.

james
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2003, 01:56:06 PM »

James, I just made a "visit" to another site and they had an icon of the Synaxis of the New Martyrs of Chelm and Podlasie (killed in Poland between 1942-45) posted there.  These Orthodox martyrs were just solemnly Glorified by His Beatitude, Metropolitan SAWA of Warsaw and All Poland and the Holy Synod of the Autocephalous Polish Orthodox Church.  I don't know if I'm allowed to give you the name of the site here or not.

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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2003, 01:58:14 PM »

Sure ! You can post any site you want, as long as it doesn't have objectionable content like the sites I sometimes post.

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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2003, 02:56:32 PM »

Ok, Bobby, thanks.  Jakub (James), you can find a link to the icon of the Synaxis of the just-Glorified Orthodox New Martyrs of Chelm and Podlasie at www.byzcath.org in the thread "Orthodox New Martyrs canonized."  Chtec made the post with the link.

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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2003, 05:51:09 PM »

Bobby,

What happened to my avatar of the Czestochowa Icon of the Mother of God?  I just checked in, and it's disappeared!

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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2003, 07:09:49 PM »

I'm such an iconoclast, I accidentally deleted it.

Will fix as soon as I find it.

Bobby
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2003, 08:56:08 PM »

I'm such an iconoclast, I accidentally deleted it.

Will fix as soon as I find it.

Bobby

Bobby,

If you can't find it, and since today is the Sunday of All Saints and all and next Sunday is the Regional All Saints' Day, it would be perfectly all right with me if you changed my avatar to the icon of the Synaxis of the newly-Glorified Martyrs (1942-45) of Chelm and Podlasie (Poland).  In two weeks, I'm sure we could come up with another Czestochowa icon.  I have some in my jpeg icon file, but not the one I was using as an avatar here.

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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2003, 10:38:59 PM »

Brother Hypo,
Out of respect for you as a elder of the forum you can have my avatar if Bobby can get it.

james
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2003, 12:34:56 PM »

Bardzo dziekuje, moj brat, Jakub!   Smiley

I wrote Bobby to tell him that *if* he can't find it, well,  I have another, simpler and more ancient version of the Czestochowa Icon of the Mother of God in jpg that I could send him, but right now I really wouldn't mind having the Icon of the Synaxis of the Orthodox New Martyrs of Chelm and Podlasie (Poland) as my avatar, at least until we celebrate Orthodox "Regional All Saints' Day" next Sunday, June 29, together with the Feast of the Prime Apostles, Peter and Paul, on the very same day, a rare occurrence.    Grin

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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2003, 01:48:27 PM »

I am curious regarding the older Czestochowa Icon you have, I was looking at a magazine that my mother had of JPII and on his stole was a Czestochowa Icon uncovered (no crown mantle). Which is correct ?

james
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2003, 02:13:15 PM »

The oldest versions, like that of the Virgin of the Passion (known in the West as "Perpetual Help"), have no exterior crowns affixed to the icon, nor do they have "rizas" with only the face(s) and most often the hands showing.  These are later additions to honor/protect the icon underneath.

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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2003, 02:48:19 PM »

Hey Hypo!

I'm trying to give you that icon you requested as your avatar, but I cannot find it any where on the internet.

Do you have a link to it?

Danke,
Bobby
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2003, 04:18:10 PM »

Bobby, I sent the jpg of the Chelm-Podlasie Martyrs from my 'puter file to your email address.  !Muchos gracias for however you can help!

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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2003, 07:29:09 PM »

To answer the question that began this thread, the rumors about more widespread use of the old Latin mass are not true.  See the article "New Rumors About the Old Mass" on the National Catholic Register's web site:

http://www.ncregister.com

What is more likely to occur is that the official English translation of the 3rd edition of the new Roman Missal will be more faithful to the Latin original.  That would indeed be welcome!  Not sure what the timetable is, though.

James
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