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Author Topic: Autism  (Read 14440 times) Average Rating: 1
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Keble
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« Reply #180 on: May 08, 2011, 07:54:17 AM »

There are dozens upon dozens of clips on YouTube documenting autistic behavior.
You missing point,
cobweb have not such kid, not even close.

Why the heck should I believe you? Have you even met this child?

And for-crying-out-loud, humorism is the common heritage of all Europe, not to mention the Islamic world (via Avicenna). There are modern temperament systems too (e.g. Myers-Briggs and socionics) but they describe variation of normal behavior and are not descriptive of pathological behavior.
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« Reply #181 on: May 08, 2011, 08:35:12 AM »


Why the heck should I believe you? Have you even met this child?

And for-crying-out-loud, humorism is the common heritage of all Europe, not to mention the Islamic world (via Avicenna). There are modern temperament systems too (e.g. Myers-Briggs and socionics) but they describe variation of normal behavior and are not descriptive of pathological behavior.





1. parent describe well enough way child acting like. I saw such kids.



2. Your reference to “Humorism” is not about clinical Pavlov typologies eastern psychology based on.   
yes, It have some small similarity and share some “termilogy”.

Pavlov classification well researched, developed and proven on east based on degree of irritation, level of and strength of it, stability and inhibition nerve system operate.

All of it  well researched and is fundamental study at any post USSR medical university.

It is not about “believe” , it is basic fundamental of psychology.
And is not my problem why you or any one not familiar with.
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cobweb
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« Reply #182 on: May 08, 2011, 09:40:33 AM »


Yes.  On a good day my child does look like that. 

Bad days can be very bad.
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« Reply #183 on: May 08, 2011, 09:49:25 AM »

There are dozens upon dozens of clips on YouTube documenting autistic behavior.

You missing point,
cobweb have not such kid, not even close.


You know nothing about my child except what I have told you. 

My child is disabled enough to be in a self-contained class room.  Strangers can usually tell that there is something "off" about him even on a good day, but his most obvious autistic behavious (such as stims) come out more frequently when he is stressed or upset.  This is normal for kids with ASDs.  If they are high functioning enough they are taught through therapy to try to control their stimming in public.

He is verbal, so his official diagnosis is Asperger's Syndrome, but his issues are severe enough that a diagnosis of mild-moderate classic (Kanners) autism has been considered.
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« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2011, 11:43:13 AM »

There are dozens upon dozens of clips on YouTube documenting autistic behavior.

You missing point,
cobweb have not such kid, not even close.


You know nothing about my child except what I have told you. 

My child is disabled enough to be in a self-contained class room.  Strangers can usually tell that there is something "off" about him even on a good day, but his most obvious autistic behavious (such as stims) come out more frequently when he is stressed or upset.  This is normal for kids with ASDs.  If they are high functioning enough they are taught through therapy to try to control their stimming in public.

He is verbal, so his official diagnosis is Asperger's Syndrome, but his issues are severe enough that a diagnosis of mild-moderate classic (Kanners) autism has been considered.

Of course I know only what you post.

And you post was:
-   picking holes in his skin
-   pulling his hair
-   banging his head against the wall
-   spinning all day

and it is not what video was about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL5GHMEjzt8

Boy on video “strange” because of luck of quality education and discipline.
Pure product of derailed godless western society with faulty values and wrong life perception .
Social environment make him like hi is.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2011, 11:51:15 AM »

Some of the posts on this thread reminds me of the Orthodox fellow I saw on youtube, who was (ignorantly) arguing that psychology was bunk, and that psychological therapy was just being promoted to keep people employed. Now, are a lot of ideas that have been put forth in the name of psychology bunk? Yeah, probably. But that doesn't mean there aren't actual problems being dealt with.
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Keble
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« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2011, 01:06:02 PM »

1. parent describe well enough way child acting like. I saw such kids.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I don't believe you.

Quote
2. Your reference to “Humorism” is not about clinical Pavlov typologies eastern psychology based on.   
yes, It have some small similarity and share some “termilogy”.

Pavlov classification well researched, developed and proven on east based on degree of irritation, level of and strength of it, stability and inhibition nerve system operate.

Pavlov's work, like pretty much everything scientific in the Stalinist USSR, was marred by a lot of political intriguing and refusal to accept how scientific progress actually advances. Pavlov was taken very much like Lysenko,  and if you want a longer treatment of it you can read Chapter 6 of Stalin and the Soviet Science Wars (Pollock, Ethan, Princeton University Press, 2006). Pavlov was not the only person to try to make a modern basis out of humorism; there have been American creationist-related attempts as well. However the short version of it is that Pavlov's reflexive theory was questioned even in Russia by physiologists there; in the west the study of biochemistry rapidly outpaced Soviet science, and it quickly became clear in the early sixties if not sooner that genetics did in fact influence mental pathologies. Of course, the dogmatic adherence to Lysenko's theories meant that accepting these results was politically impossible in the USSR.

This is the second post in two days where I've done the research (I'm looking at you too, Climacus) as against an appeal to a vague to nonexistent authority. Everything I can find thus far treats Pavlov's system as pretty much of historical interest: the work referenced in the Wikipedia article, for instance, barely even registers on Amazon and has a tiny footprint in university libraries. Pavlov's theories haven't caught on in the USA not because of some western bias/godlessness1 but because research hasn't borne them out.

And while we're at it, here's some really severe autism, and there are plenty more videos like it on YouTube.

1"Godlessness" is ironic considering how much godless soviet politics was responsible for promoting Pavlov.
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« Reply #187 on: May 08, 2011, 01:15:57 PM »



Some of the posts on this thread reminds me of the Orthodox fellow I saw on youtube, who was (ignorantly) arguing that psychology was bunk, and that psychological therapy was just being promoted to keep people employed. Now, are a lot of ideas that have been put forth in the name of psychology bunk? Yeah, probably. But that doesn't mean there aren't actual problems being dealt with.

Can you post you tube link (or PM it)? Just wounder. Even if he right – it is not my concern about.

I not sure there is global corruption about or not ( it is deferent topic) and I not concern about.
 but world going to hell on high speed and with out brakes. 
My concern - Special social concept as new religion – and way it promoted…
........and only my whish to survive, cos I feel how week and lustful I am and I am worry, I may never reach light even I know what it is.


We live not in paradise but in constant “war zone” and there are problems in our lifes and our kids suffer it too….And western psychology is not rise up to promote Christian value.

Greatest Problem – we deal with problems not in Christian way, because we live not Christian life, and often we have wrong idea about Christian life at all.

Most of us respect social life models and will pay for it in most hard way, especially for calling ourself orthodox.

Our problems is internal one, because we build wrong perception.
Society – fully screw and we try to fit into….we dumb then....And ignorant to what Christ words.
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« Reply #188 on: May 08, 2011, 01:36:33 PM »


Quote
2. Your reference to “Humorism” is not about clinical Pavlov typologies eastern psychology based on.   
yes, It have some small similarity and share some “termilogy”.

Pavlov classification well researched, developed and proven on east based on degree of irritation, level of and strength of it, stability and inhibition nerve system operate.

Pavlov's work, like pretty much everything scientific in the Stalinist USSR, was marred by a lot of political intriguing and refusal to accept how scientific progress actually advances....

Brainwash propaganda well work for you and make you great fruit of speculation.By the way Pavlov was Orthodox Christian, as well as St. Luka Vojno-Yasinecki  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Voyno-Yasenetsky – was not less but bishop in Stalin time.
Sound like you totally ignorant if you speculating on link NS typology to Lysenko.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #189 on: May 08, 2011, 09:26:29 PM »

Alive,

Just a reminder, seeing how active you've been on this thread since my last directive:

You still have two hours to do one of the following:

  • Cite authoritative persons or studies that back up your claims regarding autism
  • Establish for us why we should hold you up as an authority on autism
  • Post an admission that your claims are merely your own opinions which you have no evidence to support.

Seeing the time constraints you face, I advise you to stop arguing with other posters on this thread and focus instead on giving us the evidence I requested of you three days ago so you can maintain the freedom you currently have to post here. Again, if you have any questions or complaints about my request, please send them via private message to Veniamin or to me.

Thank you in advance for your prompt cooperation.

- PeterTheAleut
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« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 10:35:38 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #190 on: May 08, 2011, 10:54:48 PM »

Alive,

Just a reminder, seeing how active you've been on this thread since my last directive:

You still have two hours to do one of the following:

  • Cite authoritative persons or studies that back up your claims regarding autism
  • Establish for us why we should hold you up as an authority on autism
  • Ppost an admission that your claims are merely your own opinions which you have no evidence to support.

Seeing the time constraints you face, I advise you to stop arguing with other posters on this thread and focus instead on giving us the evidence I requested of you three days ago so you can maintain the freedom you currently have to post here. Again, if you have any questions or complaints about my request, please send them via private message to Veniamin or to me.

Thank you in advance for your prompt cooperation.

- PeterTheAleut
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Every thing I say with in:
2.   psychology (real one - sechenov/pavlov based - developed and well researched) – basic course at any post USSR medical university.
3.   pedagogy – basic course (year 1) from any pedagogical institution post USSR.
1.   Basic fundamentals of Christianity (Orthodox).

 
If people do not know those material and not capable to operate on such level them need to:

1. Learn fundamental basic  of Christianity
2. Learn fundamental basic of psychology developed on east first.
3. Learn basic fundamentals of pedagogy






In light of what I state in my post below, you have failed to fulfill my formal request for sources. You also insinuated yesterday that Ebor may have an Autism Spectrum Disorder, a vicious attempt to discredit Ebor that offers nothing of substance to this discussion and makes extremely insulting questions of Ebor's mental health. This conduct toward Ebor shows me that you still don't know how to engage our posters in meaningful and respectful debate without constantly belittling them.

Considering your extensive record of combative behavior on this thread and your clear unwillingness to learn how to relate to others since your last time on post moderation, you are now on post moderation for the maximum duration of 99 days. Any posts you submit to this particular thread will be automatically rejected regardless of their content until you provide the sources I requested. Outside of this thread you will still be permitted to post, but your posts will still be screened for compliance with forum rules and accepted/rejected accordingly. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

-PeterTheAleut
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« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 03:31:27 PM by Fr. George » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #191 on: May 08, 2011, 11:25:24 PM »

Alive,

Just a reminder, seeing how active you've been on this thread since my last directive:

You still have two hours to do one of the following:

  • Cite authoritative persons or studies that back up your claims regarding autism
  • Establish for us why we should hold you up as an authority on autism
  • Ppost an admission that your claims are merely your own opinions which you have no evidence to support.

Seeing the time constraints you face, I advise you to stop arguing with other posters on this thread and focus instead on giving us the evidence I requested of you three days ago so you can maintain the freedom you currently have to post here. Again, if you have any questions or complaints about my request, please send them via private message to Veniamin or to me.

Thank you in advance for your prompt cooperation.

- PeterTheAleut
Moderator


Every thing I say with in:
2.   psychology (real one - sechenov/pavlov based - developed and well researched) – basic course at any post USSR medical university.
3.   pedagogy – basic course (year 1) from any pedagogical institution post USSR.
1.   Basic fundamentals of Christianity (Orthodox).

 
If people do not know those material and not capable to operate on such level them need to:

1. Learn fundamental basic  of Christianity
2. Learn fundamental basic of psychology developed on east first.
3. Learn basic fundamentals of pedagogy
I'm sorry, but this does not satisfy my request for sources. For one, most people here are not able to attend psychology classes in a Russian university. I'm therefore looking for links to documents that we can read for ourselves, documents you and/or others have written.

Secondly, most people who post on this forum are familiar with the basic fundamentals of Orthodox Christianity, which makes your non-specific reference to this source not at all enlightening. What patristic teachings, hierarchical encyclicals, conciliar decrees, or any other specifically authoritative statement of Orthodox belief can you quote to back up your argument that the basic principles of Orthodox Christian faith support your claims? That's what I need to see. If you can't provide these, then your argument from "the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity" will be seen as nothing more than your own PERSONAL interpretation of Orthodox doctrine, an interpretation which we who also understand the basic principles of Orthodox Christianity are free to dispute.

Finally, you're putting the burden of proof on us to find these "sources" you cite in only the most general way and read them for ourselves. That's not going to work. How can we learn the basic fundamentals of Christianity if you won't teach them to us from the Bible, the Councils, and the Fathers? How can we learn the fundamental basics of psychology if we're not able to enroll in the classes you recommend? How can we learn the basic principles of pedagogy if you won't explain them to us in detail and with specific references to outside sources?

YOU need to find and post SPECIFIC quotes of those SPECIFIC sources that back up your claims. Accompanying these SPECIFIC quotes with bibliographical credits so we can read the material for ourselves will be even better. Without those SPECIFIC references to SPECIFIC sources, your "proofs" are useless. Don't make us do what you need to do yourself.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 11:27:35 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #192 on: May 13, 2011, 03:10:30 PM »

Some of the posts on this thread reminds me of the Orthodox fellow I saw on youtube, who was (ignorantly) arguing that psychology was bunk, and that psychological therapy was just being promoted to keep people employed. Now, are a lot of ideas that have been put forth in the name of psychology bunk? Yeah, probably. But that doesn't mean there aren't actual problems being dealt with.

The DSMV states that it is difficult to diagnose mental illness since we all have traits that could be called "mentally ill", as Alive points out.  They become something of concern when they affect our ability to function in society, and therein comes the rub.  What is acceptable in one society may not be in another.  When I used to perform volunteer work in an asylum in Southern Illinois, I was walking through a ward with two employees that had some pretty "odd" people in it.  One of the employees asked me if I was scared.  I asked why I should be.  He asked if it bothered me to be surrounded by people who were insane.  I told him that they were "insane" only because there are more of us than them.  If the numbers were reversed, we would be the ones institutionalized.  Remarkably, he stopped and looked somewhat confused, and then stated that he had never looked at it that way.

My wife is a Paraprofessional in Special Education.  She deals with so-called "autistic" children five days a week during the school year, and also during summer school.  Of course, since she has spent years dealing with children and has not spent the obligatory four years sitting in a classroom having someone else tell her what to think, she is probably considered by some here not to know anything. However, one observation that she has made is that what Alive says about upbringing, home life, and the like are pretty much spot on.  In addition, some of the children labeled as "autistic" are just a bit slow and there is really nothing else wrong with them.  Only occasionally does she get to see a child that would meet the classic definition of what she would consider "autistic".  These seem to have no common denominator; home life good, apparently good parents and so on.  Yes, you are correct - sometimes there are real problems that need to be dealt with.  Too bad that they are lost in the scatter.  The staff have to spend so much time dealing with the one or two so-called "autistic" kids that just need the stuff kicked out of them that they don't have the time to properly deal with the ones that really need the help due to having a real problem, even if it is called "autism".
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