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Author Topic: Muslim View of Orthodoxy  (Read 3176 times) Average Rating: 0
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Hypo-Ortho
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« on: June 19, 2003, 12:16:14 PM »

For an eye-opening view of how Muslims view Christ, Christian history and Orthodox Christianity, check out this link:

http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/orthodox.htm

Hypo-Ortho

« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 12:30:20 PM by Hypo-Ortho » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2003, 01:41:37 PM »

Brother John,

Interesting view for Muslims blasphemous statements for Christians East or West. Did you check the other articles regarding the bible etc ?

Did you check the link I posted re Orthodoxy & Western Christianity ? Another theory.

Pokoj,
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2003, 03:33:23 PM »

Brother John,

Interesting view for Muslims blasphemous statements for Christians East or West. Did you check the other articles regarding the bible etc ?

Did you check the link I posted re Orthodoxy & Western Christianity ? Another theory.

Pokoj,
james


No, James, my brother, but weren't you disturbed, even a little (as I was), that this Muslim has a Polish surname?  What kind of true Pole, or Greek, or Serb for that matter, would *voluntarily* become a Muslim?  Has Dr. Kopanski forgotten in all his research that it was the Polish King John III [Sobieski] who turned back the Muslim Turks at Vienna?  No, Kopanski has simply traded one form of repression (Communism) for another (Islam) in his life, IMHO.

Here is the website address for the story of Kopanski's conversion to Islam in his own words:

http://www.thetruereligion.com/bogdan.htm

In Christ our true God,
Hypo-Ortho  

P.S.  The one thing I'm wondering is if Kopanski underwent the Muslim ritual circumcision as is required for Muslim males.  Polish males in Europe are ordinarily uncircumcised, something which the Nazis used during WWII to distinguish male Polish Christians from male Polish Jews.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 03:41:47 PM by Hypo-Ortho » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2003, 03:50:46 PM »

Another Polski led down the wrong path, may he find his way back, Lord Jesus have mercy on his confused soul.

Why to most people find their calling to be a Muslim while in prison ?

james, wandering in the desert seeking the Truth.
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2003, 04:18:22 PM »

Why to most people find their calling to be a Muslim while in prison ?

Because jails are full of stupid people.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2003, 04:35:54 PM »

Millions of Balkan Slavs have converted to Islam--willingly--over the centuries, beginning even before the fall of Constantinople.

These same converts-- and their descendents--  formed the elite of the Ottoman military and civil service for generations and Serbs (aka Bosniacs) were especially highly favored for their great administrative and military skills, serving as both emirs, grand viziers, admirals, and generals to the Ottoman Sultans. ( The majority of Ottoman admirals, however, were of Greek descent.)

The majority of Balkan Slav converts to Islam considered Islam a reformation of Christianity which, especially in the Balkans and even in Albania, had degenerated to nothing more than superstitious practices and rituals and the churches were led by a priesthood that was hopelessly uneducated and venile, unlike the Muslim missionaries who were often Byzantine Greek converts to Islam and well educated and pastorally skilled. Also, Christianity in the Balkans at the beginning of the 15th century was hopelessly divided against itself or, more often than not, at war with itself and the Balkan Slavs--threatened by extermination by more than one Pope--were more than willing to be liberated by a religion--Islam-- that they experienced as rational and orderly and reformed minded.

Slavic Islam--ironically, because of the Serbs--is now experiencing a renaissance in the traditional Slavic Muslim--and Albanian--homelands, especially among the young.

Those of us of the older generation--even those who are secular minded-- are grateful for this social phenomenon and the preservation of our unique culture and history.

Islam was (and is) for these Slavic tribes a liberating social phenomenon.
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2003, 04:58:15 PM »

Why do you quote Kazantzakis?

This was a very confused man. His book "Report to Greco" is simply the same story over and over; only the locations change. It is him demanding over and over to God "Prove to ME you exist!"

Eventually, as I am sure you know, he was excommunicated by the Orthodox church because of his writings questioning the divinity and suggesting a sinful nature for Jesus Christ.

A very sad individual.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2003, 05:04:18 PM »

Uturn, you not only quote Kazantzakis, but you even say, "Islam is liberating," and you dare to do so on an Orthodox Christian forum?!!!!  Or am I misunderstanding you and you are being sarcastic?  Which is it?

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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2003, 05:05:46 PM »

Dear Abdur,

Actually the only renaissance of Islam in Albania is the fanatical variety, says Fr. Luke Veronis, an Orthodox missionary in Albania.  Most Albanian Muslims are secular still; the religious young people are turning fanatical (i.e. AlQaida types) fast.

Islam is not liberating, it is a joke.  It is just a crutch for people who couldn't understand the Trinity and so, using rationalism, tried to explain God away as "one" and thereby forgot that Jesus Christ, God incarnate, is the only way to salvation.

If you were just a Muslim I would not be so harsh on you but you were baptised a Christian and returned, so you are an apostate in my eyes.  I still feel so bad for your aunt who got her hopes up when you flirted with the Greek Old Calendarists then returned to Islam.

Islam is not liberating; no it is restricting.  You pretend that it was "modern" in the 15-19th centuries when Greeks and Albanians converted to it.  A small few converted out of conviction; most of them converted because it was better socially.  I won't deny that there was a lot of corruption in the Church at the time.  Islam has that advantage: since there is no real clergy how can one have corruption?  But many of the hadiths can be called corruptions, as can the Muslim religious judges and courts, so each religion has its way of corruption.

You also leave out the fact that many of the Turkish speaking Orthodox before 1922 were the descendents of converted Turks.  Now many were just Turified Greeks but not all of them.

Come back to Isa, Abdur.  Only through God can you find liberation, not through your religious system called "Islam".

anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2003, 05:09:30 PM »


Abdur,

This is an Orthodox Christian forum.  You may continue to post here, but don't start attacking Orthodoxy or you are not going to be welcome.

If you want to ask questions, or even make sincere comparisons/contrasts between Islam and Orthodoxy, fine.

If you attack Orthodoxy, though, I will censure you.  If you were a first time poster I would be more lenient, but
you have been allowed to post here since the beginning, and not all of your posts were respectful.

Your aunt is a Greek Orthodox presbytera.  Show some respect for your family's religion, please.

anastasios
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2003, 05:21:38 PM »

Why do you quote Kazantzakis?

This was a very confused man. His book "Report to Greco" is simply the same story over and over; only the locations change. It is him demanding over and over to God "Prove to ME you exist!"

Eventually, as I am sure you know, he was excommunicated by the Orthodox church because of his writings questioning the divinity and suggesting a sinful nature for Jesus Christ.

A very sad individual.


It isn't for me to judge his relationship with the Orthodox Church; I leave that for others to do.

However. Kazantsakis was a Greek literary master, highly esteemed by contemporary Greeks, and, as a man and artist, was steeped in the Byzantine-Ottoman-Greek ethos of his time and environment.

There is more to the Greek--Byzantine--Ottoman ethos and culture than just religion.
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2003, 05:30:41 PM »

Troparion to Sts. Cyril and Methodius

O Cyril and Methodius, inspired by God,
You became equal to the Apostles by your life.
Since you were teachers of the Slavs,
Intercede with the Master of all
That He may strengthen all Orthodox peoples in the True Faith,
And that He may grant peace to the world
And great mercy to our souls.
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2003, 05:40:00 PM »

There is more to the Greek--Byzantine--Ottoman ethos and culture than just religion.

Oh, I don't dispute that at all!

All I am saying is that you have to "judge" an individual based on what he stood for and the legacy he left behind. Kazantzakis did not leave behind literature that is uplifting nor enlightening. He left behing literature that basically says "because God did not convince me that He exists - I hate Him".

As an example of not looking at the complete picture

1) I can pull paragraphs from "Das Kapital' that really make sense.
2) Although it is politically incorrect, can admit that in the beginning Hitler did some good things for the German people.
3) and further, that parts of the Quran (or however it is spelled this week) when interpreted separate from the full text - actually make it sound like Islam is a religion of peace!

Read the New Testament. Christianity is the religion of peace. And the Holy Orthodox Church holds the truth to it's application in the fallen world. Amen.

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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2003, 02:56:22 AM »

For an eye-opening view of how Muslims view Christ, Christian history and Orthodox Christianity, check out this link:

http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/orthodox.htm

Hmm, Chrismation using holy cooking oil. I like that one Tongue

John.
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2003, 10:53:55 AM »

From the Orthodox Christian perspective, Islam can only be viewed with deep sadness.  Muhammad was someone who was a genuine seeker, but a confused and ultimately misguided one.  He clearly cobbled his religious ideas together from (1) existing Arab paganism, (2) heretical Christian sects he came across on his travels in the Middle East and (3) contemporary Jewish theology, particularly anti-Christian polemic.  The sum total is a made-up religious system based on the ideas of Muhammad, which themselves became increasingly muddled as he moved on in years and became ever more entangled with the secular war for dominance in Eastern Arabia.

Islam appeals to those who (1) seek simplicity and (2) seek discipline.  Islam is very simple because it really rejects the Trinity and any kind of higher theology, it is really highly monotheistic, so it's great for the lazy intellectual who can't wrap his brain around the trinitarian dialogues of the Cappodocian Fathers.  Islam also has the appeal of discipline ... regular prayer, fasting, dietary restrictions, etc., in a sense Islam has been rightly described as an "orthoprax" religion rather than an "orthodox" religion because there isn't much belief to speak of (other than a near deification of Muhammad and a religiously-inspired ignorance as to the facts of his life) .. it appeals to those who want to get wrapped up in a religion of externals, to those who want to "do religion".

As was well pointed out by V.S. Naipaul after 9-11, Islam has always been a fanatical religion, and one in which the fanatacism nearly always had a violent, secular expression.  It is nonsensical to think of an Islam without its violent fanatical element, therefore.  As long as there is an Islam there will be someone like Al-Qaida, more than willing to take up arms to spread the green terror of the Qur'an and the cult of the misguided Muhammad, and so we are really pissing into the wind, so to speak, if we think that this will go away any time soon.  It has been present when Islam was ascendent, at the beginning.  It was present during the height of Islam.   And now it is still present, when the Islamic world is largely "down & out".

Islam is very much a transvestite religion.  It has excelled at adapting religious stuff from other spiritual traditions and gussying it up (eg, the Mosque, which is copied from Eastern Christian Churches, the idea of scripture, stolen from Judeo-Christianity, the adaption of the Judeo-Christian pantheon of prophets, etc.), while covering up what lies underneath -- namely a confused hodgepodge of Arabic paganism that has no place being the world's second largest religion.  Islam is intensely Arabic in other respects, as well.  Again, as Naipaul has pointed out, there is a tension everywhere in the non-Arab Islamic world between this sense of "Islamic arabness" and the non-Arabic pre-Islamic histories of these regions.  It is a very Arab culturally imperialistic faith, and it is this disjuncture that leads to much radicalism outside the Arab world itself as those who are truly fanatical Muslims will seek to resolve this contradiction one way or the other (either in the near Messianic Shi'ite version of Iran -- "us against the world" -- or in the crazy-quilt Taliban, a group really reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge).  And we all know that the Arab world itself is always on the boil because of the contradiction between what the Qur'an says (ie, that Islam should be in charge) and the way the world looks today.  Sure, today the problem is Israel.  Rest assured if Israel disappeared into the Med tomorrow, there would still be loads of discontentment and angst throughout the Arab world -- Israel is a scapegoat and focal point for all of this resentment, resentment which has largely other causes.

When I see Muslim women in the supermarket or at the shopping mall wearing their headgear, I feel sorry for them.  They have had the misfortune of being born into a fundamentally mysogynistic religious cult.  I pray for them that they can find their way out of this situation, particularly since they now live in the United States where they can do so without incurring the death penalty for leaving their religiously-inspired slavery.

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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2003, 11:28:36 AM »

There is more to the Greek--Byzantine--Ottoman ethos and culture than just religion.

Oh, I don't dispute that at all!

All I am saying is that you have to "judge" an individual based on what he stood for and the legacy he left behind. Kazantzakis did not leave behind literature that is uplifting nor enlightening. He left behing literature that basically says "because God did not convince me that He exists - I hate Him".

As an example of not looking at the complete picture

1) I can pull paragraphs from "Das Kapital' that really make sense.
2) Although it is politically incorrect, can admit that in the beginning Hitler did some good things for the German people.
3) and further, that parts of the Quran (or however it is spelled this week) when interpreted separate from the full text - actually make it sound like Islam is a religion of peace!

Read the New Testament. Christianity is the religion of peace. And the Holy Orthodox Church holds the truth to it's application in the fallen world. Amen.



It is true that Kazantzakis was more Promethean--rebelling against the ways of heaven--and Odyssean--cynical about the ways of the gods--than 'Orthodox.' Certainly, no fair minded person could expect converts to Orthodoxy, who sincerely believe they have found within Orthodoxy the 'pearl of great price,' and 'the treasure hidden in the field,' to find Kazantzakis edifying.

But those of us  born into the great and linear Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman cultural continuum certainly sympathize with Kazantzakis since we were raised with his historical and cultural 'demons.' For us, a literary charqcter such as 'Zorba' is the incarnation of a father, brother, uncle, or friend, and not a literary abstraction.

Whether Christian, Jew, or Muslim, those of us born and raised within the Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman cultural continuum must wrestle with the same 'demons.'  If you are a Christian or Muslim of the Balkans--or a descendent--you know that what I am expressing is a matter of merely recording the facts as they exist within that cultural milieu.


But, I would agree with others, that this isn't 'stuff' that converts should be expected to understand. Some knowledge just can't be compressed within the covers of books; it must be experienced.

But Kazantzakis still speaks to and for the silent majority.
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2003, 12:49:12 PM »

From the Orthodox Christian perspective, Islam can only be viewed with deep sadness.  Muhammad was someone who was a genuine seeker, but a confused and ultimately misguided one.  He clearly cobbled his religious ideas together from (1) existing Arab paganism, (2) heretical Christian sects he came across on his travels in the Middle East and (3) contemporary Jewish theology, particularly anti-Christian polemic.  The sum total is a made-up religious system based on the ideas of Muhammad, which themselves became increasingly muddled as he moved on in years and became ever more entangled with the secular war for dominance in Eastern Arabia.

Islam appeals to those who (1) seek simplicity and (2) seek discipline.  Islam is very simple because it really rejects the Trinity and any kind of higher theology, it is really highly monotheistic, so it's great for the lazy intellectual who can't wrap his brain around the trinitarian dialogues of the Cappodocian Fathers.  Islam also has the appeal of discipline ... regular prayer, fasting, dietary restrictions, etc., in a sense Islam has been rightly described as an "orthoprax" religion rather than an "orthodox" religion because there isn't much belief to speak of (other than a near deification of Muhammad and a religiously-inspired ignorance as to the facts of his life) .. it appeals to those who want to get wrapped up in a religion of externals, to those who want to "do religion".

As was well pointed out by V.S. Naipaul after 9-11, Islam has always been a fanatical religion, and one in which the fanatacism nearly always had a violent, secular expression.  It is nonsensical to think of an Islam without its violent fanatical element, therefore.  As long as there is an Islam there will be someone like Al-Qaida, more than willing to take up arms to spread the green terror of the Qur'an and the cult of the misguided Muhammad, and so we are really pissing into the wind, so to speak, if we think that this will go away any time soon.  It has been present when Islam was ascendent, at the beginning.  It was present during the height of Islam.   And now it is still present, when the Islamic world is largely "down & out".

Islam is very much a transvestite religion.  It has excelled at adapting religious stuff from other spiritual traditions and gussying it up (eg, the Mosque, which is copied from Eastern Christian Churches, the idea of scripture, stolen from Judeo-Christianity, the adaption of the Judeo-Christian pantheon of prophets, etc.), while covering up what lies underneath -- namely a confused hodgepodge of Arabic paganism that has no place being the world's second largest religion.  Islam is intensely Arabic in other respects, as well.  Again, as Naipaul has pointed out, there is a tension everywhere in the non-Arab Islamic world between this sense of "Islamic arabness" and the non-Arabic pre-Islamic histories of these regions.  It is a very Arab culturally imperialistic faith, and it is this disjuncture that leads to much radicalism outside the Arab world itself as those who are truly fanatical Muslims will seek to resolve this contradiction one way or the other (either in the near Messianic Shi'ite version of Iran -- "us against the world" -- or in the crazy-quilt Taliban, a group really reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge).  And we all know that the Arab world itself is always on the boil because of the contradiction between what the Qur'an says (ie, that Islam should be in charge) and the way the world looks today.  Sure, today the problem is Israel.  Rest assured if Israel disappeared into the Med tomorrow, there would still be loads of discontentment and angst throughout the Arab world -- Israel is a scapegoat and focal point for all of this resentment, resentment which has largely other causes.

When I see Muslim women in the supermarket or at the shopping mall wearing their headgear, I feel sorry for them.  They have had the misfortune of being born into a fundamentally mysogynistic religious cult.  I pray for them that they can find their way out of this situation, particularly since they now live in the United States where they can do so without incurring the death penalty for leaving their religiously-inspired slavery.

Brendan

An interesting and very abstract perception of Islam based on second and third party sources, but certainly not rooted in personal experience. It is amazing how actually living a religion--as opposed to just having a limited academic knowledge of a religion--can lead to such very different conclusions about the influence of that religion on one's personal and collective life. If I had only a merely theoretical knowledge of Orthodoxy, i certainly wouldn't delude myself into believing I had actually experienced Orthodoxy, nor would I have a clear perception of it if I merely associated Orthodoxy with one particular ethnic group, as your primary source does in the case of the often savage Arabs, who comprise only 15% of world Islam. You seem unable to free yourself from a manically obsessive association of Islam with Arab savages.

Also, you do not seem capable of understanding Islam as it is lived personally and within a family context and where it manifests itself through joy, love, and celebration, and not as the dire and gloomy mischaracterization that you ignorantly would stereotype it to be. One could posit the same dire and gloomy stereotype of life among certain Orthodox groups, which would also be a mischaracterization of the Orthodox in general.

My youthful memories of Islam are very different from your abstract mischaracterizations, which are  based on the theories of others who are also strangers to the realities of living Islam at the personal amd domestic level.

My memories are colored with joy, and not distorted by the doom and gloom which is the product of your mischaracterization of Islam as the exclusive religion of Arab savages.

I retain wonderful memories of the Greek and Slavic Muslim members of our huge extended family celebrating Ramadan and Christmas--as well as other religious and national festivals--together, as one family united by love and mutual devotion, and not living at all like the miserable persons you so would prefer that Muslims--in general-- would be, nor at eternal enmity with our Christian brethren and loved ones.

Why do you feel the necessity to do that? I don't believe I must distort Orthodoxy in order to retain my allegiance to Islam.


And are you completely ignorant of Islamic Platoism, Bektashism, or Sufism?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 03:19:28 PM by uturn » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2003, 04:46:06 PM »

AbdurGǪ..

We meet again. It is always amusing to listen to muslims defend a man (prophet) like Muhammed who cannot be defended because of his horrifying acts of savagery. I will not bring up any acts of muslims or savage arabs as you call them, I will only present the life of Muhammed and the Koran. Fair enough?

Interestingly enough though Abdul, since you were a muslim left Islam and then came back, why don’t you share with us what the penalty in Islam is for apostasy. Well in case you didn't want us to know, here is the authoritative Islamic penal code for that sin. Keep in mind this is not the author’s opinion (who is a muslim by the way) on the topic, he is merely presenting what islam (all schools of thought) teach on this subject of apostasy. In case you were wondering, the penalty for apostasy from islam is death after three days. Read it for your self.
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/

I especially like the part that said,
“When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. GǪ.. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.”
Blessed be the all merciful Allah GǪ

If Muhammed is a true and final prophet from God, then we should all follow him and his religion. However, if he is a FALSE prophet, then he is a liar, his religion is false and the Koran is blasphemy because it claims to be the words  of God, when in fact God said no such thing. Some excellent reading in my opnion http://answering-islam.org/Silas/   <--- this is not an islamic website but responds to muslims claims.

As a side note, in order to be absolutely fair to the muslim point of view, I will back up everything I say from ISLAMIC references and I will give you the link to these site from AL Azhar University in Egypt (The oldest and most prestigious Islamic university in the world). I will also link you the Awkaf ministry in Saudi Arabia which is the section of the government that is responsible for the propagation of Islam faith. These links are in Arabic so you don’t accuse me to misinterpreting or editing (I read, write and speak Arabic fluently by the way). I will also provide you with a translator incase you don’t understand what the Arabic website says.  http://tarjim.ajeeb.com/ajeeb/default.asp?lang=1



Muhammed praises the PAGAN Arabian deities:-
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm

http://answering-islam.org/Green/satanic.htm  both the above websites are non islamic and same as the one I posted earlier.

Surah 22:52
Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=53&nAya=19


Read what muslims admint is muhammed praising the pagan deities Allat, Uzza and Manat and he even bowed down in front of them. This is from Koran sura 53: verses 19-22 that were later “Abrogated” or canceled. Apparently Statan whispurred into muhammed’s ears satanic verses that muhammed confused for actual revelation from God. This is interesting reading in ENGLISH for those who care .. http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/sverses.htm




Muhammed was bewitched and left under a spell for 18 months.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=5094

A man by the name of Lubiad son of Aasam bewitched the prophet by placing a magical spell in a comb that the prophet used. Having used the comb, the prophet’s hair fell out and he was under the influence of this magical spell to the point that he would think he did something that in reality he didn’t and sometimes do things without realizing he did them. Then Allah sent two angels in the form of two men who went searching for the comb that bewitched the prophet. They found that Lubiad son of Aasam had thrown the comb into a well, so the angel retrieved the comb and reversed the spell. When muhammed recovered from the spell he filled the well with dirt so that no one else would fall under that spell of the comb in the well.”

As a result Allah sent the two verses of the Korans known as “Al - mewatha-tain” meaning the two things I take refuge in. Wow .... let all follow the bewitched prophet.



If I asked you: Who is it that causes people to be lead astray, God or the devil? I think we all agree that it is the devil, for God desires that all be lead to faith. Well, lets see what this author of the Koran (supposedly God) says about himself in this regard. By the way, before you say that I am misinterpreting the Koran, I have taken the liberty to providing you with the link for the most authentic of Islamic commentators and interpreters such as AL-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, AL Kurtubi and Al Jalalien. There is nothing that can be said after their commentary:


ALLAH people to go ASTRAY:-

Sura 14: verse 4 We sent not a messenger except in the language of his people, inorder to make things clear to them. Now Allah LEADS ASTRAY those whom he pleases and guides whom he pleases; and He is exalted in power.
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=14&nAya=4


Sura 74: verse 31  The Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this? Thus doth Allah cause to stray whom He pleaseth; and guide whom He pleaseth; and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He.
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&bm=&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=74&nAya=31&taf=KATHEER&tashkeel=1

Sura 7: verse 178   Whom Allah doth guide, he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance, such are the persons who perish.
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?nType=1&bm=&nSeg=0&l=arb&nSora=7&nAya=178&taf=KATHEER&tashkeel=0


Sura 2: verse 7  Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=2&nAya=7

Sura 32: verse 13 If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together.
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=32&nAya=13

ALLAH is a DECEIVER
The Arabic word for Deceiver in these verses is “MAAKIR”. Here is an Arabic-English dictionary showing the meaning of that wordGǪ.
http://www.alqamoos.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Site=0&Src_L=ara_ara1&DestLang=En&lpcWord=%e3%c7%df%d1


Sura 3: verse 54   And (then Unbelievers) plotted and planned to deceive, and Allah too planned, and Allah is the best of deceivers. (This verse by the way is talking about the Jews who planned to crucify Christ, but Allah deceived them by allowing a substitute to be crucified instead - Allah the great deceiver. Don’t take my word for it though, what muslim have commented on this verse)
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=3&nAya=54


Sura 7 verse 99  Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allah? But no one can feel secure from the deception of Allah, except those (doomed) to ruin!
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=7&nAya=99

Sura 8: verse 30   Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and planed to deceive, and Allah too plans, but Allah is the best of deceivers.
http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=KATHEER&nType=1&nSora=8&nAya=30


Muhammed orders the execution of a 120 year old women:-


Muhammed orders the execution of a 120 year old women name Mother of Kerfa who ridiculed him in poetry. First of all here is refernce from the biography of  Muhammed by Al Tabari (written in the 900’s AD +º+ä+Ã +¦+º+¼+¦Altabari in his book Alseera Al Nabawiya “The Prophetic biography Volume 2 page 463”) and the link from AL Azhar so you don’t think I am making this up
http://history.al-islam.com/names.asp?year=6#n33

Describing who Mother of Kerfa is, AL Tabari writes:
“She is Fatima daughter of Rabia son of Badir son of Amru AL Fazari. Mother of Kerfa married a prince of the tribe of Hathifa and bore for him 13 children the first of whom was Kerfa by whom she is surnamed. All her children became leaders of their tribes. She was the dearest of all Arabs, and an example of honor and pride to them.. It was said if two tribes fought and Mother of Kerfa sent her shall on a spear that was displayed to both parties, then they would reconcile out of respect for her.  She used to annoy the prophet with her poetry so in the sixth year of the Hijra (638 AD) he sent Zaid son of Haritha on a military expedition to kill her in the most heinous of ways. For he tied her legs with ropes and tied each of the ropes to a camel so that SHE WAS SPLIT IN TWO. She was an old woman when this happened and her head was severed as proof to all that she had died.

Here is the text in the Arabic for those that care. Thank God this prophet is so peaceful.

+ç+è +ü+º+++Ã +¬ +¿+Ã¥+¬ +¦+¿+è+¦+¬ +¿+Ã¥ +¿+»+¦ +¿+Ã¥ +¦+Ã +¦+ê +º+ä+ü+¦+º+¦+è+¬. +ú+Ã  +é+¦+ü+¬ +¬+¦+ê+¼+¬ +Ã +º+ä+â+º +¿+Ã¥ +¡+¦+è+ü+¬ +¿+Ã¥ +¿+»+¦ +ê+ê+ä+»+¬ +ä+ç +½+ä+º+½+¬ +¦+¦+¦ +ê+ä+»+º +ú+ê+ä+ç+Ã  (+é+¦+ü+¬) +ê+¿+ç +¬+â+Ã¥+ë, +ê+â+ä +ú+ê+ä+º+»+ç+º +â+º+Ã¥+ê+º +Ã +Ã¥ +º+ä+¦+ñ+¦+º+í +ü+è +é+ê+Ã +ç+Ã . +â+º+Ã¥+¬ +Ã +Ã¥ +ú+¦+¦ +º+ä+¦+¦+¿, +ê+ü+è+ç+º +è+¦+¦+¿ +º+ä+Ã +½+ä +ü+è +º+ä+¦+¦+¬ +ê+º+ä+Ã +Ã¥+¦+¬ +ü+è+é+º+ä: +ú+¦+¦ +Ã +Ã¥ +ú+Ã  +é+¦+ü+¬ +ê+â+º+Ã¥+¬ +Ñ+¦+º +¬+¦+º+¼+¦+¬ +¦+++ü+º+Ã¥ +¿+¦+½+¬ +«+Ã +º+¦+ç+º +¦+ä+ë +¦+Ã +¡ +ü+è+Ã¥+¦+¿ +¿+è+Ã¥+ç+Ã  +ü+è+¦+++ä+¡+ê+Ã¥. +â+º+Ã¥+¬ +¬+ñ+ä+¿ +¦+ä+ë +¦+¦+ê+ä +º+ä+ä+ç +¦+ä+ë +º+ä+ä+ç +¦+ä+è+ç +ê+¦+ä+Ã  +ü+ú+¦+¦+ä +ü+è +º+ä+¦+Ã¥+¬ +º+ä+¦+º+»+¦+¬ +ä+ä+ç+¼+¦+¬ +¦+è+» +¿+Ã¥ +¡+º+¦+½+¬ +ü+è +¦+¦+è+¬ +ü+é+¬+ä+ç+º +é+¬+ä+º +¦+Ã¥+è+ü+º, +ü+é+» +¦+¿++ +¿+¦+¼+ä+è+ç+º +¡+¿+ä+º, +½+Ã  +¦+¿+++ç +¿+è+Ã¥ +¿+¦+è+¦+è+Ã¥ +¡+¬+ë +¦+é+ç+º +¦+é+º. +ê+â+º+Ã¥+¬ +¦+¼+ê+¦+º +â+¿+è+¦+¬, +ê+¡+Ã +ä +¦+ú+¦+ç+º +Ñ+ä+ë +º+ä+Ã +»+è+Ã¥+¬ +ê+Ã¥+¦+¿ +ü+è+ç+º +ä+è+¦+ä+Ã  +é+¬+ä+ç+º
+º+ä+à +¦+º+¼+¦
+º+ä+++¿+¦+è 2 / 463 - +º+ä+à +¡+¿+¦ +¦ / 119 - 462 - 490.

This thread is growing ridiculously. So lets conclude:
This man muhammed:-

1-Could not tell the difference between satan’s revelations and the angel’s revelation t the point that he confused the words of satan to be the Koran. Basically we are being asked to follow the prophet who could not tell the difference between truth and falsehood.

2-This prophet was easily bewitched for 18 months by his enemies to the point where he didn’t know he was doing and saying thingsGǪ basically delusional.

3-Muhammed committed terrible attricites like splitting in two the Mother of Kerfa, killing Kenana the Jewish leader and sleeping with Kenana’s wife that same night, Killed Ibn Rafi, beheaded 900 Jews of the tribe of Kuraitha, sleeping with Aisha when she was 9 and he was 53 etc..

4-The God that muhammed preached about is describes himself as a DECEIVER in the Koran (Makaar in Arabic)

5-The author of the Koran (supposedly God) doesn’t correctly understand the Holy Trinity and confuses it with Tri-theism

6-The author of the Koran fools everyone in history by replacing Jesus Christ with a substitute on the cross. Thus the Allah of Islam is the reason for all the Christians in the world incorrectly thinking that Jesus was crucified and makes himself a deceiver like his prophet.

7-I won’t even start describing to you the Islamic version of heaven that included the wide eyed virgins whose virginity is replaced everyime a muslim man sleeps with her in heaven, the all you can eat and drink buffets, rivers of wine and milk. Eternally youthful boys who “serve” the muslim man in heaven. Everything you muslims describe about heaven you can find in a Nevada brothel.

Finally I will say it funny how muslims always like to make the claim that islam is the “fastest growing religion” in the world, but are completely silent on the fact that 6 million muslims a YEAR LEAVE islam in Africa alone. Here is an interview with a muslim cleric on Al Jazeerah network wailing about this fact and how it can be stopped. It’s in Arabic though, sorry guys. http://www.aljazeera.net/programs/shareea/articles/2000/12/12-12-6.htm

If you want more testimonies in English of muslims who leave islam for Christ then try this site, there are many more though:-
http://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

Thanks AbdurGǪ but I’ll stick with Christ and his true teaching and His Church, the Orthodox Church. In heaven you will be like the angels of GodGǪdoes that sound familiar?

Thank you Christ my God and my King for your death on the cross, despite what the muslims say.
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