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Author Topic: How can Rome fall?  (Read 35528 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #360 on: February 25, 2008, 08:22:37 AM »

This folds when you remember that there was a time when the entire East, and not Rome, was heretcial at the same time. Sorry.

Not the entire East, and the Church recovered from this serious spiritual illness without the help of Rome. We've developed a very keen and strong immune system to heresy as a result.

1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
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« Reply #361 on: February 25, 2008, 10:27:57 AM »

Not the entire East, and the Church recovered from this serious spiritual illness without the help of Rome. We've developed a very keen and strong immune system to heresy as a result.
Amen brother.
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« Reply #362 on: February 25, 2008, 10:52:21 AM »

Not the entire East, and the Church recovered from this serious spiritual illness without the help of Rome. We've developed a very keen and strong immune system to heresy as a result.
It certainly appears that in the same hotbed of theological argumentation that produced the world's greatest heresies the Church also produced her greatest defenses against these heresies.  Evidently, for the East to articulate her defense against heresy, she had to have a good number of bishops and laypersons who remained loyal to true faith in Christ and did not fall prey to the false teachings.
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« Reply #363 on: February 25, 2008, 11:39:49 AM »

This folds when you remember that there was a time when the entire East, and not Rome, was heretcial at the same time. Sorry. 

... but that doesn't counterbalance the fact that Rome's been in heresy for over 1000 years.

Quote from: The Holy Fathers of the Ecumenical Synod assembled in Ephesos
Canon VII.

When these things had been read, the holy Synod decreed that it is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different (ἑτέραν) Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa.

But those who shall dare to compose a different faith, or to introduce or offer it to persons desiring to turn to the acknowledgment of the truth, whether from Heathenism or from Judaism, or from any heresy whatsoever, shall be deposed, if they be bishops or clergymen; bishops from the episcopate and clergymen from the clergy; and if they be laymen, they shall be anathematized.

And in like manner, if any, whether bishops, clergymen, or laymen, should be discovered to hold or teach the doctrines contained in the Exposition introduced by the Presbyter Charisius concerning the Incarnation of the Only-Begotten Son of God, or the abominable and profane doctrines of Nestorius, which are subjoined, they shall be subjected to the sentence of this holy and ecumenical Synod.  So that, if it be a bishop, he shall be removed from his bishopric and degraded; if it be a clergyman, he shall likewise be stricken from the clergy; and if it be a layman, he shall be anathematized, as has been afore said.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xvi.x.html
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« Reply #364 on: February 25, 2008, 11:44:41 AM »

Not the entire East, and the Church recovered from this serious spiritual illness without the help of Rome. We've developed a very keen and strong immune system to heresy as a result.

1 Cor 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

You are missing the point, it does not make sense to claim that you are right becuase Rome is alone against the entire East when that has already happened, with the entire (yes, entire, sorry) East heretical and only Rome kept unsullied.
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« Reply #365 on: February 25, 2008, 12:37:42 PM »

This folds when you remember that there was a time when the entire East, and not Rome, was heretcial at the same time. Sorry.

I asked you to please support this claim with evidence (cited, of course, from scholarly work, not Catholic propaganda).  You have not done it yet.
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« Reply #366 on: February 25, 2008, 12:45:30 PM »

Now I've got "Feed the trolls, tuppence a bag" stuck in my mind.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!    laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

I used to love "Feed the birds!!"  Now I love it even more!  I think "Feed the trolls, tuppance a bag" should be the theme song for this thread!  What say ye?

"'Feed the trolls' that's what she cries.... while overhead, the trolls fill the skies!!!!"

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« Reply #367 on: February 25, 2008, 04:09:44 PM »

You are missing the point, it does not make sense to claim that you are right becuase Rome is alone against the entire East when that has already happened, with the entire (yes, entire, sorry) East heretical and only Rome kept unsullied.

Sure, when I get time. I actually thought this as common knowledge. In fact, I'll post all the different heresies that plagued the Eastern Churches thoughout its early history when it was in communion with Rome later tonight (I say in communion with the See of Rome even though they thought Rome was heretical in its views of the filioque and it thinking it was supreme-this has never been addressed here). And yes, each time the See of Rome had to bring those Eastern Churches back from heresy. When was there a time when the Eastern churches brought the See of Rome back from heresey? Anyone have quotes here?

Your silence speaks volumes.

Some of my post are not getting posted.

Where are the counter post?

Just show me a post from any father stating that the See of Rome fell at one time or could fall. Obviously, or I thought that it would be obvious, private letters dont count. That there were many heresies found in the East while none is the West speaks volumes.

Where are your quotes? You made me produce them. Why havent you? Isnt it odd that your teachings regarding the issues at hand are nowhere found in the church fathers?HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #368 on: February 25, 2008, 09:26:35 PM »

Just because there are some forgeries, it does not follow that anything against your beliefs automatically must be a forgery.

How are they out of context? You never provided counter text to prove them wrong.

You supported Rome when you knew accroding to you it was heretical. Thats sinks your point here.

Actually there are many many forgeries. So many that Rome was called in the East The home of Forgery"

Let me ask you again...Why so many forgeries if the truth is so apparent. What would the need be? Go look into the "Decrees if Damasus" ( sometime referred t as the "Decreals" and sometime the "False Decrees"..They took more than a passing effort to produce.. Why all the fuss when the historical evidence of Papal Supremacy ( as opposed to Primacy of Honor) was there for any fool to plainly see...Seems suspicious to me.

As far as context goes I have seen two categories  in similar debates. The first is the mistaken reading by Roman Catholics of laudable passages about Rome by Easterners during times when Rome was squarely Orthodox. Those quotes, effusive as they may be, are miss read as evidence of  Papal Rulership when nothing of the kind is being mentioned... The other instance are specific political situations when Rome is being asked for some sort of help.

The bottom line is that any objective scholarly reading of the historical record shows that Rome was first among equals, one of several Jurisdictions and not in charge of the entire Church as modern Catholics imagine.   

As for your final point, I think you are resorting to straw man argumentation. Rome is in schism from the Church and Rome thinks we are in schism from them. No one supports that. 
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« Reply #369 on: February 25, 2008, 10:45:20 PM »

That there were many heresies found in the East while none is the West speaks volumes.
Yes, it does.  It shows that the East had a much more vibrant and lively tradition of theological discussion and debate than the West did for the first few hundred years.  While the West was trying to understand who she was, the East had already been working for centuries to understand and articulate the nature of God and of Christ.  In this hotbed of creativity was born both heresy and a deeper understanding of Truth.  Now, how do you answer cleveland's charge that your church had fallen into heresy and NOT found the way back to true faith?
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« Reply #370 on: February 25, 2008, 10:51:11 PM »

Some of my post are not getting posted.

You are on post moderation.  Each of your posts must be approved by a moderator.  If it is deemed unacceptable to be displayed, it will be declined.
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« Reply #371 on: February 26, 2008, 03:31:41 AM »

You are missing the point, it does not make sense to claim that you are right becuase Rome is alone against the entire East when that has already happened, with the entire (yes, entire, sorry) East heretical and only Rome kept unsullied.
The heresy in the East was short lived and the Church recovered. The errors in the West however have become deeply entrenched over a long period of time with little prospect of recovery.

Regarding your "yes, entire, sorry", unless you have evidence that every single Christian in the East was at that time a heretic then your statement is nonsense.

John
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« Reply #372 on: February 26, 2008, 03:47:53 AM »

And yes, each time the See of Rome had to bring those Eastern Churches back from heresy.

This is patently false. Rome had very little to do with the East's recovery. While many heresies appeared in the East, the champions of Orthodoxy also came from the East and the heresies were defeated in the East.

John
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« Reply #373 on: February 26, 2008, 03:48:53 AM »

This folds when you remember that there was a time when the entire East, and not Rome, was heretcial at the same time. Sorry.

Unless you can produce three quotes from the Fathers which clearly say that "the entire East can Fall" then you must retract this statement as being patently false and based on lies.
"By what yardstick you measure, you shall be measured." Cheesy

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« Reply #374 on: February 26, 2008, 03:48:55 PM »

Yes, it does.  It shows that the East had a much more vibrant and lively tradition of theological discussion and debate than the West did for the first few hundred years.  While the West was trying to understand who she was, the East had already been working for centuries to understand and articulate the nature of God and of Christ.  In this hotbed of creativity was born both heresy and a deeper understanding of Truth.  Now, how do you answer cleveland's charge that your church had fallen into heresy and NOT found the way back to true faith?

By noting that Rome never fell.

And your opinion as to why all of the heresies taught by a See were eastern is an interseting example of trying to spin an obvious truth: that Sees that officially taught hersies were eastern, and never Rome.
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« Reply #375 on: February 26, 2008, 04:40:08 PM »

You are on post moderation.  Each of your posts must be approved by a moderator.  If it is deemed unacceptable to be displayed, it will be declined.

Where is my other post? Why was it not acceptable to post?

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« Reply #376 on: February 26, 2008, 04:42:00 PM »

Where is my other post? Why was it not acceptable to post?



Not sure, another mod/admin must have declined it.  When they pop in, they can let you know.
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« Reply #377 on: February 26, 2008, 04:48:07 PM »

Where is my other post? Why was it not acceptable to post?



For calling people hypocrites for requesting quotes out of you.  Ad hominems are against board policy.
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« Reply #378 on: February 26, 2008, 07:32:24 PM »

Some of my post are not getting posted.

You're being placed on Post Moderation for insulting the Orthodox Church's Synod of Constantinople (without repenting when given the chance) and for Trolling (you've been reported by Orthodox and Roman Catholic users for Trolling).

Post Moderation allows you to PM freely; you are still able to post, but your posts will go into a "holding place" until they are approved by a member of the moderation team.

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM FrChris, the board administrator.
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« Reply #379 on: February 26, 2008, 07:46:39 PM »

Unless you can produce three quotes from the Fathers which clearly say that "the entire East can Fall" then you must retract this statement as being patently false and based on lies.
"By what yardstick you measure, you shall be measured." Cheesy



This is not being fair, since in the past, I had provided quotes upon your request. You, on the other, have not provided anything.

The fact of the matter, the Eastern Sees openly taught heresies multiple times in all of their Sees. You know this, otherwise you guys would not have said that the heresies were necessary above in order to mature theologically.

When ever did the See of Rome openly teach heresy as official doctrine?

I am busy with two jobs and finishing my degree this semester. I certainly dont have time to grant your every wish, especially since you have never granted mine. However, when I get time, I will post the several heresies, like the heresy of Arius, and show how Rome was crucial in handling them. There are 1000s of  church father quotes that support this fact.

Again, just because there are some questionable documents, it does not follow that every document that does not support your ideals are automatically discarded.

I cannot believe that you guys are trying to say that the Sees of the East have not been plagued by mutliple heresies. And that Rome played no part in restoring your guys' repeated attempts to introduce heresy in the catholic church.

Please tell me of one time when the Eastern Church had to restore the See of Rome from teaching a heresy? All you have is a private letter from a pope that was never officially taught as doctrine openly by the See. As you know, there are many instances when the Eastern Sees openly taught heresy. There is no comparsion.

St Maximus' life and quotes are a testimony to my claims, and stand firmly against yours.

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« Reply #380 on: February 26, 2008, 09:09:51 PM »

This is not being fair, since in the past, I had provided quotes upon your request. You, on the other, have not provided anything.
You know, earlychurch, the great thing about the Internet is that I can look at this whole thread to see if what you're saying is true. Ah, it's not! Fr Chris provided you with a few quotes on the very first page.

You have done nothing on this thread but ask loaded questions and insult the Orthodox. I hope you will understand why we don't feel like giving you the ammunition you so desire.
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« Reply #381 on: February 26, 2008, 09:16:42 PM »

Now, how do you answer cleveland's charge that your church had fallen into heresy and NOT found the way back to true faith?

By noting that Rome never fell.


Forgive me. Isn't this basically saying "Rome never fell because it didn't" -- i.e., circular reasoning?
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« Reply #382 on: February 26, 2008, 10:23:14 PM »

However, when I get time, I will post the several heresies, like the heresy of Arius, and show how Rome was crucial in handling them. There are 1000s of  church father quotes that support this fact.

If that was the case, why did Arianism linger on in the West well after it was defeated in the East?

John
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« Reply #383 on: February 26, 2008, 11:30:13 PM »

Not sure, another mod/admin must have declined it.  When they pop in, they can let you know.
I rejected one post because it quoted a fictitious post that basically condemned you to hell.  The only problem was that I could find nowhere on this thread the post you allegedly quoted.  It appears as if you forged the quote in an effort to make yourself look like the victim of a vicious ad hominem.
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« Reply #384 on: February 26, 2008, 11:32:10 PM »



Forgive me. Isn't this basically saying "Rome never fell because it didn't" -- i.e., circular reasoning?

No. because you would be able to do the same thing with the Eastern Sees. Everybody knows for a fact that every Eastern See at some point fell. You guys know this. I suppose you mean after 1054, since at that time, Rome is seen to have fallen from your perspective. If thats your question, than you do have a point. But the point of contention here is in the first 1000 years etc. Since we do not agree after 1054, the debate is set prior when we all agreed. There is no point when the See of Rome fell before 1054. There are many instances when the Eastern Sees fell. Too many to number here.

There is simply no comparison.

For whatever reason, the East let the See of Rome be primal. I wonder if anyone here can even answer as to why the See of Rome was such?
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« Reply #385 on: February 26, 2008, 11:32:29 PM »

If that was the case, why did Arianism linger on in the West well after it was defeated in the East?

John

What do you mean by linger? The point of contention is if the See of Rome taught such heresy as official doctrine.

The amount of heresies taught by eastern Sees are too many to number here. The See of Rome has never taught heresies as official doctrine. There is no comparison.
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« Reply #386 on: February 26, 2008, 11:34:42 PM »

Everybody knows for a fact that every Eastern See at some point fell. You guys know this.
It's become clear to me that whatever comes after "everybody knows" in a post such as this is bound to be false. Why don't you quote someone who says this?
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« Reply #387 on: February 26, 2008, 11:35:39 PM »

No. because you would be able to do the same thing with the Eastern Sees. Everybody knows for a fact that every Eastern See at some point fell. You guys know this. I suppose you mean after 1054, since at that time, Rome is seen to have fallen from your perspective. If thats your question, than you do have a point. But the point of contention here is in the first 1000 years etc. Since we do not agree after 1054, the debate is set prior when we all agreed. There is no point when the See of Rome fell before 1054. There are many instances when the Eastern Sees fell. Too many to number here.

There is simply no comparison.

For whatever reason, the East let the See of Rome be primal. I wonder if anyone here can even answer as to why the See of Rome was such?
But when you continue to assert that Rome can never fall, then that does make the centuries AFTER 1054 just as much, if not moreso, the point of contention.
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« Reply #388 on: February 26, 2008, 11:37:59 PM »

I rejected one post because it quoted a fictitious post that basically condemned you to hell.  The only problem was that I could find nowhere on this thread the post you allegedly quoted.  It appears as if you forged the quote in an effort to make yourself look like the victim of a vicious ad hominem.

Who condemned who to Hell? I have never condemned anyone in my life to Hell.

I wish everyone here well.

I have pointed out that there are double standards going on, and hypocracy, becasue I was being asked to do something that no one here was doing in return.
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« Reply #389 on: February 26, 2008, 11:38:00 PM »

It's become clear to me that whatever comes after "everybody knows" in a post such as this is bound to be false. Why don't you quote someone who says this?

First of all, just read the story of St Maximus the Confessor for an instance of Sees falling in the east. Why do I need to provide you a quote for such an obvious fact?
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« Reply #390 on: February 26, 2008, 11:38:48 PM »

Who condemned who to Hell? I have never condemned anyone in my life to Hell.
Did you intentionally forge a quote to make it appear that someone condemned you to hell?
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« Reply #391 on: February 26, 2008, 11:41:07 PM »

I have pointed out that there are double standards going on, and hypocracy, becasue I was being asked to do something that no one here was doing in return.
No double standard here.  For the most part, you're the only one making outlandish claims that demand proof.  We have nothing we need, or even want, to prove to you.
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« Reply #392 on: February 26, 2008, 11:41:50 PM »

Who condemned who to Hell? I have never condemned anyone in my life to Hell.
Whom. The word you're looking for is "whom."

First of all, just read the story of St Maximus the Confessor for an instance of Sees falling in the east. Why do I need to provide you a quote for such an obvious fact?
I expected as much from you. Trolls don't respond to legitimate questions.
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« Reply #393 on: February 27, 2008, 12:07:52 AM »

No double standard here.  For the most part, you're the only one making outlandish claims that demand proof.  We have nothing we need, or even want, to prove to you.

This is false. You asked me to provide quotes. I asked you to provided quotes. I did what you asked; you did not do what I asked.

This is a double standard: you expect something from one person that you do not for youself.
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« Reply #394 on: February 27, 2008, 12:13:00 AM »

Go look at the first page. Reply #42. Then if you persist in saying we never provided you with quotes, we'll all know that not only are you a troll, but you're also abysmally stupid.
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« Reply #395 on: February 27, 2008, 12:15:11 AM »

Whom. The word you're looking for is "whom."
I expected as much from you. Trolls don't respond to legitimate questions.

And what queston of mine have you answered.  Huh

That eastern Sees fell is common knowledge even to my opponents here, save you.
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« Reply #396 on: February 27, 2008, 12:17:43 AM »


That eastern Sees fell is common knowledge even to my opponents here, save you.

See, here's the issue I have.  Why do you come here and regard us as your opponents?  What did we ever do to you?  It seems that our very existence as fellow Christians is offensive to your sensibilities.

I find this very sad.
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« Reply #397 on: February 27, 2008, 12:19:04 AM »

If you'll look through this thread (and you've proven your own lack of knowledge about it), you'll see that my first post on this thread was about five hours ago, #380.

If "that eastern Sees fell is common knowledge," then surely someone besides you knows it. Why can't you find someone who agrees with you?
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« Reply #398 on: February 27, 2008, 12:47:16 AM »

What do you mean by linger?

Arianism was defeated theologically in the East by the 1st Council of Nicea in 325AD and was thoroughly quashed by the 1st Council of Constantinople in 381AD.

In contrast, we see that in 589AD, 200 years later, it was still enough of a problem in the West for the 3rd Council of Toledo to feel the need to defend Christ's divinity. Unfortunately they did so by making a unilateral change to the Nicean-Constantinopolian Creed which changed it from describing the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, the infamous "filioque" clause.

Arianism was a problem for a lot longer in the West than it was in the East. That is what I mean by "linger".

John
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« Reply #399 on: February 27, 2008, 01:03:04 AM »

See, here's the issue I have.  Why do you come here and regard us as your opponents?  What did we ever do to you?  It seems that our very existence as fellow Christians is offensive to your sensibilities.

I find this very sad.

"Opponents" because your claiming opposite things than me. Why is that sad? It maybe sad, but mostly indicative of psychological complexes.

I came here to learn.

I learned how you guys concluded that the See of Rome fell prior to 1054: by a private letter that was never meant to be read out loud or teach anything official. I have learned that you call councils ecumenical even though they were not. I have learned that if you dont like a quote, you discard it as a forgery. I have learned that you expect standards of me that you do not apply to yourself. I have learned that you took one of my quotes, found that there was a second edition, and by that knowledge, considered all of my quotes void, even though the link provided validated my argument. I have learned that you ignore quotes that seem to put the OC in a bad light. I have learned that some of you dont know of a time that the eastern Sees were heretical. I have learned that you completely ignore St Maximus' quote, because it does not fit into your ideals.

I have learned a lot here and wish to continue to learn.
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« Reply #400 on: February 27, 2008, 01:03:09 AM »

If you'll look through this thread (and you've proven your own lack of knowledge about it), you'll see that my first post on this thread was about five hours ago, #380.

If "that eastern Sees fell is common knowledge," then surely someone besides you knows it. Why can't you find someone who agrees with you?

I cannot remeber if I had already rsponded to you, but if you read the thread, you'll find your fellows admitting that the Sees in the east fell because they were working on doctrine etc.
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« Reply #401 on: February 27, 2008, 01:06:41 AM »

Arianism was defeated theologically in the East by the 1st Council of Nicea in 325AD and was thoroughly quashed by the 1st Council of Constantinople in 381AD.

In contrast, we see that in 589AD, 200 years later, it was still enough of a problem in the West for the 3rd Council of Toledo to feel the need to defend Christ's divinity. Unfortunately they did so by making a unilateral change to the Nicean-Constantinopolian Creed which changed it from describing the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit, the infamous "filioque" clause.

Arianism was a problem for a lot longer in the West than it was in the East. That is what I mean by "linger".

John

I see what you mean, but my last to you stands: the See of Rome never taught that heresy, whereas the Sees of the East did.

(btw, newly aquired tribes had to do with the crisis you brought up.)
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« Reply #402 on: February 27, 2008, 01:19:15 AM »

This is false. You asked me to provide quotes. I asked you to provided quotes. I did what you asked; you did not do what I asked.

This is a double standard: you expect something from one person that you do not for youself.
That's because you're a guest on our forum.  You are obviously in the minority here, and you're presenting an opinion that runs contrary to that accepted by roughly 90% of the posters at OC.net.  You are the one who needs to substantiate his wild claims (wild relative to our majority understanding).  We, being in the majority on this forum, have no reason to grant any of your requests if we don't want to, since we don't need to prove anything to some singular troll who wants to dominate the discussion and dance around every refutation of his arguments.

You know, you're like a giant windbag.  The more you try to blow our quotes off of us with your bluster, the more tightly we will hold our quotes around ourselves to protect ourselves against your wind.
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« Reply #403 on: February 27, 2008, 01:21:59 AM »

I have learned a lot here and wish to continue to learn.
Then why are you still here?
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« Reply #404 on: February 27, 2008, 01:32:29 AM »

That's because you're a guest on our forum.  You are obviously in the minority here, and you're presenting an opinion that runs contrary to that accepted by roughly 90% of the posters at OC.net.  You are the one who needs to substantiate his wild claims (wild relative to our majority understanding).  We, being in the majority on this forum, have no reason to grant any of your requests if we don't want to, since we don't need to prove anything to some singular troll who wants to dominate the discussion and dance around every refutation of his arguments.

You know, you're like a giant windbag.  The more you try to blow our quotes off of us with your bluster, the more tightly we will hold our quotes around ourselves to protect ourselves against your wind.

You are still using a double standard even though you feel right in doing so. You are simply rationalizing your use of a double standard, which is of course what everone does who uses them.

The reason why in this case you are using it, is because there are zero quotes from the early church fathers to support your case. Whereas, there are many that support mine. Like this one:

Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Or this one:

St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650)
A celebrated theologian and a native of Constantinople, ...

The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the Most Holy Roman Church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest Church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of the orthodox confession and right faith in Him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, and she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks against the Most High. (Maximus, Opuscula theologica et polemica, Migne, Patr. Graec. vol. 90)



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