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Author Topic: Supremacy of Peter  (Read 42602 times) Average Rating: 0
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Euthymios
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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2008, 01:36:47 AM »


See also the hymnology of the Orthodox Church for the Feast Day of Saints Peter and Paul, June 29th, wherein, both St. Peter and St. Paul are referred to as "Corifie," (sp) "Chief" Apostles.  They were, the first among them; they were not "ruler of the Apostles;" nor was the Faith founded on them (him).  The Faith was founded on the faith Peter demonstrated, as recorded in scripture, "You are Christ the Son of the Living God."

Paul is a "coryphaeus," but only Peter is THE "coryphaeus." And the term us barely used for Paul, ever. The term "ruler" ans applied to Peter, is used multiple times.

The Greek Church celebrated the feast of the chains of St. Peter on January 16. The text venerates Peter as the coryphaeus, "rock of the faith," "key bearer," protothrone," and "law-giver, shepherd and teacher of Christ's flock." [Menaion, Athens 1979, January, 138-45].

Note: According to Liddell and Scott, a standard Greek lexicon, the term "coryphaeus" or "koruphaios," comes from Attic drama and "refers to the leader of the chorus, and means "foremost man, leader, chief." [Oxford University Press 1933, s.v.].

Texts for the feast of Ss. Peter and Paul, on June 29, refer to Peter as the leader [prostates] of the Church, the "great president," to whom Christ "entrusted the helm of the Church." [Pitra, LXXIII, LXXVI].

Texts for the commoration of all the apostles, on June 30, call Peter the "foundation of all the faithful," exarch of the apostles," and "divine and sacred head." [Ed. J.B. Pitra, op. cit., XIII, XVII].

A tenth century Byzantine Menology, published by B. Latysev, is strikingly reminiscent of the thinking of St. John Chrysostomos. On June 29, feast of saints Peter and Paul, it has the following notice about St. Peter, alluding to his fall and restoration:

"...and see, he learns to be patient to sinners, and he received simply the diocese of the whole world..."[Menologii Anonymi Byzantini Saeculi X Quae Supersunt, Petropolis, 1911-1912. Fasc. II, 115].

An Armenian Synaxarion attributed to to Catholicos Gregory VII of Anawarza [c.1300] commemorates, on 9 Aratz [January 6], a feast in honor of the chains of Peter, "head" of the apostles and rock of the Church." The Gregorian Synaxiarian calls Peter "head of the apostles."[PO 19:46, 734].

An Egyptian source from the early seventh century remarks that God made a promise, "saying to the chosen one and head of the apostles," Peter: "Thou art a rock, and upon it I shall build my church." [Chronicle of Michael the Syrian, Bk X, 26. Ed. J. Chabot, 2:284].

The Coptic Synaxarian calls Peter "head of the apostles." [PO. 16:313].

A notice for the feast of Ss. Peter and Paul on 5 Abib, or June 29, reads:

"...when [the Lord] chose Peter, He made him first of the disciples..........Then the Lord gave him the best part, established him as cornerstone of the Church....." [PO 17:622-3].

The Coptic Synaxarian commemorates Peter's confession on 7 Mesore, or July 31 and says:

"....Peter became the head of the disciples, and lieutenant [sic] at Rome, for the authority over all the heads of the world...." [PO 17:710].

The Ethiopian Synaxarian commorates St. Peter on 7 Nahase [August 13] and refers to him as "head of the apostles.....He [Peter] is established over all the princes of the world, the patriarchs, metropolitans, bishops, priests, deacons, and the entire priestly clerical order..." [PO 9:291-2].

PETER AND PAUL

In the tradition of the Church, Saints Peter and Paul enjoy a certain distinction within the apostolic choir: they are leaders or "chiefest" of the apostles. Several fathers use this language; for example Venantius Fortunatus, the Latin hymnographer, proclaimed:

"[Paul] was more learned in his admonitions; [Peter] was higher in rank......the one opens the way to heaven by his teachings, the other by the key." [Miscellanea III, 7. PL 88:126].

Peter was prince by virtue of the key; Paul was also first by his teaching. [Miscellanea IX, 2. PL 88:299].

There are also many testimonies to Saint Peter's primacy in the Syriac liturgies, but that will have to wait for another day. He is also given primacy in west Syrian liturgies.

As for the personal statements from the Church Fathers on Peter's primacy over the other apostles, time and space does not permit such a treatment right now. I already quoted Saint John Chrystomos for now.

But I'll leave this with a quote from Saint (Pope) Leo the Great, the "pillar of Orthodoxy:"

"The right of using this authority passed on to the other apostles, but what is intimated to all is, not without reason, commended to one. For this [authority] is singularly entrusted to Peter, because the form of Peter is set before all the rulers of the Church. The priviledge of Peter remains, therefore, wherever judgement is passed through his equity, nor is there excessive severity or remission where nothing shall be bound, nothing loosed, what Blessed Peter shall have either bound or loosed." [Sermon 83: PL 54:430].




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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2008, 01:37:33 AM »


Church Fathers (small sampling)


 Saint Cyril of Alexandria [412-444]:

"He allows him no longer to be called Simon, already exercising authority and power over him, as being of His house, but changes [his name] to Peter [rock], for upon him was He about to found His Church." [PG 73:220].

"He promises to found the Church, attributing unshakeability to it, as He is the Lord of powers, and over it He places Peter as shepherd." [PG 72:424].

Many Latin authors referred to Peter as "prince of the apostles." The list includes:

The priest Faustinus, c.380. [De Trinitate, 5. PL 13:71].

Salvian, a fifth century priest of Gaul. [De. Dei Gubern. VI, 1. PL 53:108].

Sedulius, the fifth century poet and priest. [In Gal.II].

Pope Pelagius I [556-560]. [Ep. 6, PL Suppl. 4:1286].

The Second Council of Braga, in 572. [PL 84:570].

Pope Pelagius II [579-590], in his third letter to the bishops of Istria. [ACO IV, Vol. 2,119].

Saint Gregory the Great [590-604], in his epistles, regularly gives the title to Peter. So does Pope Leo II [681-682].

Saint Bede, in Vita Beatorum Abbatum, ch. 1, 2, 22. [Ed. J. Stevenson, Venerabilis Bedae Opera Historica Minora, London 1841:139-41, 161].

The Life of St. Guthlac [c. 720, in A.S. 10:40].

The Life of Saint Paldo the Abbot. [A.S. 52:565].

Blessed John Cassian called Peter prince of the apostles. [De. Incarnatione III, 12].

St. Avitus, bishop of Vienne [c. 500] called Peter "the head of the apostles, that is, the prince of the princes." [Fragment I. PL 59:295].

PETER IS CORYPHAEUS OR LEADER OF THE APOSTOLIC CHOIR

This is stated by:

Eusebius of Caesarea. [In Ps. 68. PG 23:737].

Saint Athanasius. [In Ps. 15].

Saint Ephiphanius, bishop of Salamis in Cyprus. [Tom. II in Anchor. 9].

Saint Macarius of Egypt. [De. Patientia, 3. PG. 34:868].

Saint John Chrysostomos [as already cited].

Saint Gregory of Nyssa. [Alt. Orat. de S. Steph].

The Acts of St. Nicetas. [A.S. 44:40].

Theodoret, bishop of Cyrus in Palestine [c. 450]. [In Ps. 2].

Barsanuphius and John. [Questions and Answers. PO 31:515].

John Moschus. [Pratum Spirittuale, 148. PG 87: 3013].

Saint Sophrnius of Jerusalem, in his synodical letter. [PG 87: 3189].

Saint Nicephorus, patriarch of Constantinople [c. 815]. [Mansi 14:45].

Saint Nilus [c. 425] calls Peter president or protostates of the apostles. and shepherd of the entire world. [Epp. Bk. II: 21, 75. PG. 79:208].

Saint Theodore the Studite called Peter the "coryphaeus [chief] of the apostles." [Cat. 15. Mai. Nova Patrum Bibliotheca 9:37].

Saint Cyrial of Jerusalem [c. 375]:

"Peter, the leader [protostates] of the apostles and chief herald of the Church, not using language of his own devising or persuaded by reasoning of man, but with his understanding enlightened by the Fathers, says to Him," Thou art the Christ..." [Cat. X, 3 PG 33:693].

Ambrosiaster:

"It was fitting that [Paul] should desire to see Peter, because he was first among the apostles, to whom the Savior had delegated the care of the churches." [In Gal. 1, 18. PL 17:344].

Saint Optatus, bishop of Milevis [c. 370]:

"Blessed Peter...merited both to be preferred before all the apostles, and he alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest." [De Schism. Don. VII, 3. PL 11:1087].

Origen

He describes Peter as "head" of the apostles.[ Hom. 17 in Lk.], as having "more honor than the rest." [Tom. XXII in Jn., 5] and as "greater than the other disciples." [Tom. XIII in Mt., 14].

Saint Ambrose

"...Peter is set over the Church....and He [the Lord] later chose him as pastor of the Lord's flock...." [In Ps. 43. PL 14:1163].
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2008, 02:01:59 AM »

Justin Popovitch was a schismatic.
Strange then that the Holy Mountain recognizes him as a "Blessed Elder"......
Please do not use ad hominems against Orthodox Elders.

If you are really an Orthodox Christian and are not lying, could you please state to which jurisdiction you belong?
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2008, 02:08:09 AM »

 
SAINT JOHN CHRYSOSTOMOS ON THE PRIMACY OF PETER:

Note: the term "corypheaus" means "chief" or foremost man."

"And why, then, passing by the others, does He speak with (Peter) about these things? [John 21, 15] He was chosen one of the apostles, and mouth of the disciples. and leader [koruphe] of the choir. This is also why Paul once went up to see him. rather than the others. [Gal. 1, 18] and to show him that he ought to have confidence, as if the denial were done away with, He entrusts him with the presidency of the brethren...And He does not bring foward the denial, or reproaches him for for what happened, but says "if you love me, preside over the brethren." ...A third time He commands the same thing, showing how greatly He honors the presidency over His own sheep... And if anyone were to say, "How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?" I would answer that He ordained this man [Peter] teacher, not of that throne, but of the world." [Hom. 88in Jn. PG 59:478-80].

"Peter, the coryphaeus of the choir, mouth of all the apostles, head of that tribe, prostates of the whole world, foundation of the Church, the ardent lover of Christ, for He says: "Peter, lovest thou me more than these?" [On 2Tim. 3, 1. PG 56, 277].

"Peter, the summit [koruphe] of the apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received a revelation not from man but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying: "Blessed art thou..." This very Peter--and when I say ’Peter I name that unbroken rock, that firm foundation, the great apostle, first of the disciples, the first called and the first who obeyed --he committed no little offence but an exceedingly great one, denying the Master..." [Hom. 3 de Eleemos. PG 49:298].

"...Peter, the foundation of the Church, vehement lover of Christ...who traversed the universe, lay down his net into the sea, and caught the entire world..." [Vidi Dominum, Hom. IV, 3. PG 56: 123].

"...the holy coryphaeus of the blessed choir, the lover of Christ...the ardent disciple, who was entrused with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation..." [Hom. VI on Acts. PG 60: 56].

"Peter, the coryphaeus of the choir of the apostles, mouth of the disciples, pillar of the church, bulwark of the faith, foundation of the confession, a fisherman of the world...the first of the apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of the apostles..." [Hom. de decem mille tal. 3; ad eos qui scandal. sunt 17].

Saint John Chrysostom depicts Peter as exercising the apostolic primacy at the very beginning of the Church, after Pentecost:

"In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples." [Acts I, 15]. Both as a fervent one, and as entrusted by Christ with the flock... [Peter] is first to act with authority in the matter, as the one entrusted with them all, for to him Christ said: "And thou, being converted, strenghten thy brethren." [Hom. 3 in Acts. PG 60: 33, 37].

"Peter, the foundation, the pillar...God allowed him to fall, because He was going to make him ruler [arxonta] of the entire world so that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who fall in the future. And that what I have said is no conjecture, listen to Christ Himself saying: "Simon, Simon..." [Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit, 5. PG 63: 465].

"...[when] that coryphaeus Peter, after a thousand wonders and signs and so much warning and consel [had fallen’, He [Christ] overlooked it and established him first of the apostles..." [In Ps. 129. PG 55: 375].

"Why did He shed His blood? In order that He might gain possession of those sheep He entrusted to Peter and those who came after him." [De Sacerdotio II, 1/ PG 48: 632].

There is no doubt that as far as Saint John Chrysostom was concerned, Peter held the primacy over the other apostles. This language is never used of our beloved Saint Paul.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2008, 02:10:20 AM »

I am finding that Orthodox moderators are terrified of this subject everywhere I go. These our OUR Church Fathers. They taught on Peter's primacy. Didn't you know that? To delete their statements is disrespectful to them.
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2008, 02:53:12 AM »

The divine primacy of the popes

Excuse me, but did you just say "the divine primacy of popes"?
I have a cactus plant on the balcony that is more "orthodox" than you are.
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2008, 03:41:06 AM »

I am finding that Orthodox moderators are terrified of this subject everywhere I go. These our OUR Church Fathers. They taught on Peter's primacy. Didn't you know that? To delete their statements is disrespectful to them.

Terrified? No; rather, they suspect a troll.
Face it, friend, the popes of Rome are in error and schism now. Your jihad is moot...and boring.
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2008, 12:43:17 PM »

I am finding that Orthodox moderators are terrified of this subject everywhere I go. These our OUR Church Fathers. They taught on Peter's primacy. Didn't you know that? To delete their statements is disrespectful to them.

Right. We've never seen them, or we are trying to hide them. Darn that internet, it is making it too easy for the Roman Catholics to prove us wrong! That's why we are afraid. And you figured us out!!  Tongue

Maybe Orthodox moderators are just opposed to your copy/paste techniques and seeming lack of understanding of the complexity of the topic at hand. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. If you're here to add something to the already long threads on the topic, great. If you are here to drop a few quotes and then leave claiming we are unfair, then, you will end up getting what you want. It's up to you.
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2008, 12:50:54 PM »


Yes, the sources refer to the "divine primacy" of the popes multiple times within the first 900 years of the Church. Saint Theodore the Studite even used this phrase in referring to the pope. I am finding the Orthodox to be very ignorant on this subject and it breaks my heart.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2008, 12:54:39 PM »


No, I am Orthodox but I am finding that the Orthodox are literally terrified of statements by men they claim are their own Church Fathers. Do you agree with Saint John or not? What is "trolling" about quoting the holy God-bearing fathers? What are Orthodox so afraid of? Don't you want to hear from the saints? It boggles my mind. Or do you cherry pick and take from the fathers only those things that you want to hear?
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« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2008, 12:56:35 PM »


And I have not copied and pasted. The primary source quotes I gave are not found anywhere online. They come right from the yet to be published book "Keys Over the Christian World." And even if a person did copy and paste, what is the violation? These are REAL fathers and to reject their teaching is disrespectful to them.
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« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2008, 01:03:33 PM »

No, I am Orthodox but I am finding that the Orthodox are literally terrified of statements by men they claim are their own Church Fathers.

If you are Orthodox and you are comfortable with those statements than obviously "the Orthodox" aren't all terrified, now are they?

When did you find these quotes? What scholarly books have you read on the development of papal primacy? Or popular books even? Do you want references? What is your goal here? You seem to have already distanced yourself from your fellow Orthodox.

If you don't get why "cut and paste" is annoying then you obviously have not been part of an online COMMUNITY and DISCUSSION forum for very long.

Don't assume I or anyone else is ignoring the Church Fathers. That is disrespectful to your fellow man.

Could you tell us more about this book you mentioned? What does it have that is different from say "Jesus Peter and the Keys" or "Upon this Rock"?
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« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2008, 02:18:29 PM »

Quote
Could you tell us more about this book you mentioned? What does it have that is different from say "Jesus Peter and the Keys" or "Upon this Rock"?

For starters, the author of the 'unpublished manuscript' "Keys over the Christian World"  is  John Coloraffi and Scott Butler (Mr. Butler also being the author of "Jesus, Peter and the Keys") - both Roman Catholics. [ Sources: http://www.monachos.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-4351.html - third post from the bottom &  http://www.a2z.org/acts/articles/primacy/jerryopen.htm - bottom of page ].

Mr. Coloraffi has his own Catholic apologist website, called "The Ancient Papacy - An Apologetics Apostolate Dedicated to the Defense of the Papacy." [ Source: http://www.ancientpapacy.org/ ]

I have the distinct feeling that Euthymios is simply playing semantic games when asserting that he is "Orthodox."   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2008, 02:54:52 PM »

Yes, the sources refer to the "divine primacy" of the popes multiple times within the first 900 years of the Church. Saint Theodore the Studite even used this phrase in referring to the pope. I am finding the Orthodox to be very ignorant on this subject and it breaks my heart.
Let me translate for those who are not citizens of Oceania: The Newspeak word "ignorant" as it is used here roughly translates to the English phrase "not in agreement with me."
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« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2008, 03:15:56 PM »


No, not in agreement with the Fathers.
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« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2008, 03:36:30 PM »

The Formula of Hormisdas, was signed by 2500 eastern clergy. The divine primacy of the popes was known universally at that time. If the primacy is by divine right [as Saint Theodore the Studite states] then it is purpetual. 

Hmmm.

1. Divine Primacy can and will be severed by schism - a position that leaves RC's and EO's separated.  We say they're in schism (and thus the Pope has no Divine Primacy over us), and they say we're in schism.

2. There has been no tie between the Patristic idea of Roman Primacy and (a) Universal Jurisdiction, (b) Requisite ratification of Ecumenical Councils by the Pope, (c) ex cathedra infallibility, (d) Universal conferral of the Pallium/Omoforion, (e) Inability to enter into heresy or schism, etc.

3. There has been no mention of the effect that ancient rhetorical style has had on our modern interpretation of Patristic statements.

4. There has been no conclusive evidence given to support the claim that Roman Primacy was 100% directly tied to Petrine primacy in a means exclusively referring to Rome; Roman primacy was largely because of the status of Old Rome in the Empire as the Capital, largest city, most powerful city, etc. - to claim that Roman primacy was originally 100% because of Petrine Primacy leads directly to the argument in favor of Antiochian Primacy based 100% on Petrine Primacy (with no political factors involved).

... so why should we waste our time?
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« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2008, 03:42:37 PM »

Within the first nine centuries of the Church, the popes had jurisdiction over the entire Church. Appeals to the popes were sent from all over the Christian world. About this, there can be no doubt.

LATERAN COUNCIL [649]

Saint Maximos the Confessor put this council on the same status of the ecumenical councils. He approved of this council. And he stated the following:

"For ever since the Word of God condescended to us and became a man, all the Churches of Christians everwhere have held, and hold the great Church [Rome] there as their sole basis and foundation, because, according to the very promises of the Lord, the gates of hell have never prevailed over her, but rather she has the keys of the orthodox faith and confession; she opens the genuine and only piety to those who approach her piously, but closes every heretical mouth that speaks injustice." [PG 91:137-40].

Now, lets take a look at what the Lateran Council stated. This council was convened to refute the Monothelite heresy.

The notary Theophylact welcomed the bishops, explaining that Pope Martin had summoned them to overthrow a new heresy "by his apostolic authority." Then, turning to the pope, Theophylact asked him to address the gathering of the bishops, "over which you are pre-eminent through the great apostolic summit,which is in charge of all preists throught the world."[Mansi X, 867-70].

The conciliar acts contain a letter from Maurus, bishop of Ravenna, "to the most holy and most blessed, apostolic and universal pontiff throughout the world, Pope Martin." [Mansi X, 883-90].

Bishop Stephen of Dora explained the origins of the heresy, and said:

"And for this cause, we sometimes asked for...the wings of a dove..that we might fly away and announce these things to that Chair which rules and presides over all, that is to yours, the head and highest...For this it has been accustomned to do from of old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or spiritual authority, because the truly and great Peter, leader of the apostles, clearly was deemed worthy not only to be entrusted the keys of heaven, alone [and] apart from the rest worthy to open it to believers...." [Mansi X, 893].

A Greek and Armenian delegation of monks was led by John, abbot of St. Sabas, who described the council as meeting " by command of the one divinely presiding over you, priest of priests and father of fathers pre-eminent over all, our Lord Martin, the thrice blessed pope." [Mansi X, 903-5].

John continued."this is why we urge and implore you all, most holy fathers, and the apostolic and highest throne to anathematize heretics. The hearts of all look to you, after God, knowing that you have been established by Christ our God as leader ane head of the churches." [Mansi X, 905-8].

The notary Theophylact also stated:

"To my most holy and most blessed and divinely strenghtened master, father of fathers, archbishop and ecumenical patriarch...Sergius sends greetings in the Lord. O sacred summit, Christ our God has establisged your apostolic see as a fixed and immovable foundation, and a most luminous pillar of the faith. For you are, as the divine word rightly says, Peter, and upon your foundation have the pillars of the Church been fixed....[Mansi X, 911-14].

Theophylact also read an intervention, which three African councils had sent in 643:

"To the most blessed lord raised to the apostolic summit, the holy father of fathers, pope Theodore, supreme pontiff of all bishops, ...[Mansi X, 909].

Pope Martin observed that requests were coming in from all over the Catholic world, "imploring our apostolic and supreme see to arise in condemnation of the new doctrine." Mansi X, 923].

Maximus, primate of Aquileia, remarked that God "has raised up the holy spirit of a man burning with zeal for the Lord, whose venerable name [is] Martin, who has convoked us in holy fashion, and presides over us by apostolic authority." [Mansi X, 1055].


SAINT MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR

He was following the events regarding Pope Honorius closely. Writing to an abbot named Thalassius, he described the behavior of the Roman legates:

".....How much more is this the case with the Church and clergy of Rome, which from of old up to this time, as the eldest of all the churches under the sun, has the pre-eminence over all.. Having undoubtedly obtained this canonically, both from the councils and from the apostles as well as from their supreme principality, because of the eminence of her pontificate she is not bound to produce any writings of synodical letters, just as in these matters all are subject to her, in accordance with priestly law.........as firm ministers of the truly solid and immovable rock, that is, the greatest apostolic church....." [Mansi X, 677-8].


Saint Maximus also stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven...."[ PG 91: 144].

Do you agree with St. Maximus and the Lateran Council? If not, why? They were Orthodox. Are you?
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« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2008, 03:52:30 PM »

Of course I'm Orthodox, thanks for asking.  Are you?  You do know that we require a bit of honesty on OC.net when self-reporting Jurisdiction - so you must be a member of one of the 2 major bodies that self-identify as "Orthodox" to use the title (those being the communion of the Eastern Orthodox, and the communion of the Oriental/Coptic Orthodox).  If you're not, then we consider your self-appelation of "Orthodox" to be dishonest and it must be changed immediately.

As to your cut-and-paste job:

Any statements by St. Maximos claiming that the Roman See has never erred does not indicate that it cannot or will not err - to this end we have the benefit of hindsight.  I personally think that St. Maximos would have been appalled at some of the theology that would come from Old Rome a few centuries later. The statements of the council do not address the questions and statements in my above post - especially the points on Rhetoric and Universal Jurisdiction (and you know what I mean by the latter).  And I have not (and will not) dispute that Rome had the seat of highest appeal.  However, a synod that was ratified by the Pope transferred this seat of appeal to Constantinople, well before the schism.

So where's the proof?  Otherwise you're wasting my time, when I could be doing other things (like another couple of hours of shoveling wood chips on my off day!).
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« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2008, 05:04:18 PM »

What "Lateran Council of 649"? You're almost 600 years off.

The Lateran councils were post schism.
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« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2008, 05:52:55 PM »

You do realize that many of the statements attributed to St Maximus do not exist in Greek, and only in Latin editions produced by the Vatican?
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« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »

Appeals were made to the Pope and at the same time made to Milan and various other sees. You OBVIOUSLY have not been reading the threads on OCnet because all of this has been discussed many times.

Have you read the work "Popes and Patriarchs" by Michael Whelton? He brings up some interesting points about ancient Latin claims.
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« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2008, 07:25:44 PM »

I have the distinct feeling that Euthymios is simply playing semantic games when asserting that he is "Orthodox."   Roll Eyes

I've noticed that he won't respond to anyone asking who his bishop is or what church he belongs to.
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« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2008, 07:40:30 PM »

I've noticed that he won't respond to anyone asking who his bishop is or what church he belongs to.

My hunch is some Orthodox/Catholic monastic charismatic entity with high speed Internet access.
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« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2008, 07:52:03 PM »

I've noticed that he won't respond to anyone asking who his bishop is or what church he belongs to.

Cults tend to be totalistic, or all-encompassing, in controlling their members' behavior and also ideologically totalistic, exhibiting zealotry and extremism in their worldview.

http://pseudo-prophet.tripod.com/definitionsofacult.html
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« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2008, 08:17:17 PM »

If i remember correctly St. John Chrysostom never devoted a homily soley to St Peter. He never saw anything great in Rome but instead exalted his hometown of Antioch above Rome, when he said:

"One of the prerogatives of our city (Antioch) is to have had for her teacher Peter, the leader of the apostles. It was just that the city which first of all the world was adorned with the name of 'Christian', should have for her bishop the first of the apostles. But having recieved him as a teacher, we did not keep him always but yielded him to the imperial city of Rome; or rather we have always kept him, for if we have not the body of Peter, we have kept the Faith of Peter as our Peter, since holding Peter's faith is as though we held Peter himself." (2nd homily, title of the acts of the apostles).

What does St John Chrysostom's above quote tell us of the interpretation of Matt 16.18 given by roman apologists, other than it is rubbish?

As far as St John Chrysostom on St. Paul , he says this:
"Angels often  recieve the mission of guarding the nations, but none of them ever governed the people confided to him as Paul governed the entire universe... The hebrew people were confided to Michael the Archangel, and to Paul were committed the earth, the sea, the inhabitants of all the universe, even the dessert."(2nd homily Panygeric upon St Paul)

and St John Crysostom even elevates Paul above Peter:
"In the place where the cherubim are covered with glory, and where the seraphim soar, there shall we see Paul with Peter, Paul who is the prince and president of the choirs of saints." (32 homily Epistle to the Romans)

But to leave no stone unturned this is how the holy Chrysostom spoke of St John the Evangelist:

"It is the Son of Thunder, the Beloved disciple of Christ, the pillar of all the churches in the whole world, who now comes to us. It is he who posseses the keys of heaven, who has drunk the chalice of Christ, and has been baptised with His baptsm, and who so confidently reclined on the breast of the Lord"... (homily 1 on st John the apostle)

So much for romes assertion that only Peter has "the keys". Can you imagine how the roman apologists would use and abuse this writing of  St John Chrysostom if the 'Pillar of all the churches  in the word" was spoken about Peter???
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« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2008, 09:08:03 PM »

Yes, the sources refer to the "divine primacy" of the popes multiple times within the first 900 years of the Church. Saint Theodore the Studite even used this phrase in referring to the pope. I am finding the Orthodox to be very ignorant on this subject and it breaks my heart.

Divine primacy of the bishop of Rome? Then why did Rome use the forgery known as the "Donation of Constantine" to establish their claim to universal primacy? A primacy which the documents claims was given to the vatican by the Emperor Constantine. not by Peter or Christ.

Now lets see what St Theodore the Studite really meant. We know from his writings that he was full of praise, and showered those who supported him with the most exalted language. Of course the roman apologists only concentrate on those words bestowed upon the bishop of Rome. In fact not only do the roman apologists only concentrate on what was said to the pope over all others, but the roman apologist employ a double standard in which the words spoken to the pope are of a dogmatic nature! If we use this same approach , we can say that St Theodore the Studite viewed Jerusalem above Rome when he said of the Bishop of Jerusalem, "The First of the Five Patriarchs".

 Of course if we had access to the writings of St Theodore we would see that he can speak pretty low of the papacy as he did in (Epistle 28) to the abbot of St Saba Monastery in Rome.

As far as the Horsmidas formula, that meant nothing especially after Pope Honorious was anathemized as a heretic and all subsequent councils confirmed it (much to the shagrin of the papal apologists who try to spin it).

This is the nonsense roman apologists use, but now the brainwashing is slowly being debunked
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« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2008, 09:25:33 PM »

My hunch is some Orthodox/Catholic monastic charismatic entity with high speed Internet access.
My hunch is some Orthodox/Catholic monastic charismatic entity wannabee with high speed Internet access.
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« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2008, 10:00:57 PM »

No, I am Orthodox but I am finding that the Orthodox are literally terrified of statements by men they claim are their own Church Fathers. Do you agree with Saint John or not? What is "trolling" about quoting the holy God-bearing fathers? What are Orthodox so afraid of? Don't you want to hear from the saints? It boggles my mind. Or do you cherry pick and take from the fathers only those things that you want to hear?

We have been barraged by these quotes many times before. The Roman claims dont hold up under rigorous scrutiny. It takes a fairly good schoar to pick apart the forgeries and half statements and out of context passages, but once that is done, the Roman claims fall apart. Sometimes wisdom is knowing how much you don't know.
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« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2008, 12:37:07 AM »



As to your cut-and-paste job:

I did not cut and paste, and even if I did so what? What does that prove or disprove? The material I cited comes from primary source documents not found online. It would be impossible to cut and paste. Your statement is a red herring smokescreen and ad hominem.

Any statements by St. Maximos claiming that the Roman See has never erred does not indicate that it cannot or will not err - to this end we have the benefit of hindsight.

If the primacy is by divine right, as the saint said, then it cannot err. The primacy was established by Christ.

  I personally think that St. Maximos would have been appalled at some of the theology that would come from Old Rome a few centuries later.

That statement is circular. He would only be appalled if Orthodoxy is right and Rome is wrong. But since Rome holds the divine primacy, it can never be wrong.

The statements of the council do not address the questions and statements in my above post - especially the points on Rhetoric and Universal Jurisdiction (and you know what I mean by the latter).  And I have not (and will not) dispute that Rome had the seat of highest appeal.  However, a synod that was ratified by the Pope transferred this seat of appeal to Constantinople, well before the schism.
.

The popes exercised primacy of jurisdiction over the entire Church. Study canons 3,4, and 5 of the Council of Sardica. Constantinople never had authority over the entire Church. They only had jurisdiction in the east. But even the papal vicars for the east were in Thessalonica. Only Rome had jurisdiction over the entire Christian world.


Do you agree with Ss. Theodore, Maximos, the Lateran Council, Pope Martin, and the Formula of Hormisdas or not? If the answer is no, then don't call yourself Orthodox.
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« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2008, 12:38:13 AM »

What "Lateran Council of 649"? You're almost 600 years off.

The Lateran councils were post schism.

No, the Lateran Council of 649. The schism was in 1054 [but not sealed untill 1204].
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« Reply #75 on: May 11, 2008, 12:39:12 AM »

You do realize that many of the statements attributed to St Maximus do not exist in Greek, and only in Latin editions produced by the Vatican?

The statements I gave from Saint Maximos are from primary source Greek documents. That argument won't work. Sorry.
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« Reply #76 on: May 11, 2008, 12:42:25 AM »

Appeals were made to the Pope and at the same time made to Milan and various other sees. You OBVIOUSLY have not been reading the threads on OCnet because all of this has been discussed many times.

I would be willing to debate the greatest Orthodox [or Protestant] scholar you can find on the primacy of Rome. Give me the link, or we can start a new one.

Have you read the work "Popes and Patriarchs" by Michael Whelton? He brings up some interesting points about ancient Latin claims.

Whelton supressed a lot of information. And James Likoudis has already pulverized Whelton's books by two books of his own. Go to the James Likoudis homepage.
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« Reply #77 on: May 11, 2008, 12:44:09 AM »

Again, what council are you talking about? You can type it all you want, but until I see a council listed (east or west) in 649, I think you're confused.

1054 has nothing to do with First Lateran council in 1123 - that is post schism.
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« Reply #78 on: May 11, 2008, 12:58:25 AM »

Right. We've never seen them, or we are trying to hide them. Darn that internet, it is making it too easy for the Roman Catholics to prove us wrong! That's why we are afraid. And you figured us out!!  Tongue

Maybe Orthodox moderators are just opposed to your copy/paste techniques and seeming lack of understanding of the complexity of the topic at hand.

I have three comments:

1. Please prove that I have coppied and pasted. If you cannot do this, please apologize.

2. Please prove that copying and pasting validates or invalidates an argument. You have engaged in a classical red herring fallacy and even a form of the ad hominem. Deal with the argument; not the source of it.

3. I could not possibly coppy and paste because the quotes I gave with the primary sources, are not found online [except I also posted them at another Orthodox forum so you might find them there].

Now, do you agree with Saint John or not? If not, please don't call yourself Orthodox.

QUESTION

Why are Orthodox so rude and disrepectful? What are you afraid of? Why are they so sensitive to this subject?
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« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2008, 01:00:41 AM »

Trolls, especially ones purporting themselves as Orthodox often find this.
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« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2008, 01:01:55 AM »

Euthymios, Are you asserting that individual Fathers are infallible? Neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism teaches this.
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« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2008, 01:03:00 AM »

For starters, the author of the 'unpublished manuscript' "Keys over the Christian World"  is  John Coloraffi and Scott Butler (Mr. Butler also being the author of "Jesus, Peter and the Keys") - both Roman Catholics. [ Sources: http://www.monachos.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-4351.html - third post from the bottom &  http://www.a2z.org/acts/articles/primacy/jerryopen.htm - bottom of page ].

Mr. Coloraffi has his own Catholic apologist website, called "The Ancient Papacy - An Apologetics Apostolate Dedicated to the Defense of the Papacy." [ Source: http://www.ancientpapacy.org/ ]

I have the distinct feeling that Euthymios is simply playing semantic games when asserting that he is "Orthodox."   Roll Eyes

I have 40 pages of primary source documentation from the Church Fathers from Greece, Italy, Armenia and Syria on the primacy of Peter that you will not find on that or any website.  Can we have a discussion or not? Can we be polite? Can we be respecftul of the God-bearing Fathers?
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« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2008, 01:04:38 AM »

Trolls, especially ones purporting themselves as Orthodox often find this.

Excuse me but I have to interject here. Do they allow discussions and debates here or not? You are "poisoning the well" but your attacks and not offering anything even relevant to the subject. Moderator?
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« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2008, 01:07:34 AM »

Euthymios, Are you asserting that individual Fathers are infallible? Neither Orthodoxy nor Catholicism teaches this.

No, I am saying that the entire conensus patrum [Church Fathers], the ancient liturgies of Byzantium, Greece, Syria, Egypt, Armenia and Copts; all taught on the primacy of Peter. The modern "Orthodox" who dispute this, are at odds with the universal consensus of the pre-schism Church.
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« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2008, 01:12:22 AM »

If i remember correctly St. John Chrysostom never devoted a homily soley to St Peter. He never saw anything great in Rome but instead exalted his hometown of Antioch above Rome, when he said:

Did you even read the references I gave? lol You can't be serious. Come on now. Saint John called Peter "the coryphaeus" [chief, foremost man]. Go back and read him. Scroll up. John called Peter THE chief and foundation of the Church. He never spoke this way of Paul. He called Paul "a chief" one or two times. Scroll up and read the statements I gave from Saint John.


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« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2008, 01:14:27 AM »

No, I am saying that the entire conensus patrum [Church Fathers], the ancient liturgies of Byzantium, Greece, Syria, Egypt, Armenia and Copts; all taught on the primacy of Peter. The modern "Orthodox" who dispute this, are at odds with the universal consensus of the pre-schism Church.

Well of course Rome had primacy back in the day, when it was Orthodox. It's not Orthodox now, its bishops do not have apostolic succession or grace, and it is in heresy, so who cares at this point?
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« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2008, 01:15:04 AM »

I have 40 pages of primary source documentation from the Church Fathers from Greece, Italy, Armenia and Syria on the primacy of Peter that you will not find on that or any website.  Can we have a discussion or not? Can we be polite? Can we be respecftul of the God-bearing Fathers?

Do you read Greek?
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« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2008, 01:15:47 AM »

The primacy of Saint Peter is shown in the Scriptures. Christ told Peter to  "poimaino" [rule] his sheep in John 21:16, and in verse 16 Christ tells him to give spiritual nurishment to the sheep [bosko].

The Fathers are unanimous on the primacy of Peter. 

SAINT CYPRIAN

"Peter...upon whom the Church was founded by the condescendence of the Lord..." [De Bono Pat., 9].

SAINT BASIL

[Peter] "on account of the pre-eminence of his faith, received on himself the building of the Church." [Against Eunomius II, 4. PG 29:577].

"The house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the foundations of which are on the holy mountains, [is] built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. One of these mountains also was Peter, upon which rock the Lord promised to build his Church." [On Isaiah, II PG 30:233].

SAINT GREGORY OF NAZIANZEN

"...you see that of the disciples of Christ, who were all great and worthy of election, one is called Rock and is entrusted with the Foundations of the Church..."[ Or. 32. PG 36:193].

[Peter] "the unbroken rock, who had the key." [Poem. Moral. in laud, Virg. PG. 37:559].

"Peter, head of the apostles......the unbroken and most firm rock upon which the Lord built the Church." [Alt. Or. de S. Steph. PG 46:733].

SAINT CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA

"He allows him no longer to be called Simon, already exercising authority and power over him, as being of Hid house, but changes [his name] to Peter [rock], for upon him was He about to found His Church." [PG 73:220].

SAINT CYRIL OF JERUSALEM

Peter, the leader [protostates] of the apostles, and chief herald of the Church..."[Cat. XI, 3. PG 33: 693].

AMBROSIASTER

"It was fitting that [Paul] should desire to see Peter, because he was first among the apostles, to whom the Savior had delegated the care of the churches." [In Gal. 1, 18. PL 17:344].

I can go on and on citing the fathers and ancient liturgical traditions from east and west. In a real sense, the honeymoon of ignorance is over.
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« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2008, 01:48:36 AM »

I would be willing to debate the greatest Orthodox [or Protestant] scholar you can find on the primacy of Rome. Give me the link, or we can start a new one.

Whelton supressed a lot of information. And James Likoudis has already pulverized Whelton's books by two books of his own. Go to the James Likoudis homepage.

Please. I have Likoudis's books. Now I know why you are going by the name Euthymios.
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Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Euthymios
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« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2008, 01:59:35 AM »


I have found with Orthodox people, that they never pay attention to WHAT is being said, but at WHO is saying it. They get dirty and immediatly begin smear campaigns and ad homien attacks against the person making the argument. For example, the "copying and pasting" charge, as if that even had any relevance at all. But they try to mislead people into believing it even means anything.

There is something inside Orthodoxy that makes people feisty and malicious. I believe this is why there are so many schisms [or jurisdictions] because they can't get along with anyone. I have been Orthodox for 16 years and I know what I am talking about.



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