OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 25, 2014, 12:11:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bishop Hilarion on Liberal Christianity  (Read 11728 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« on: February 15, 2008, 01:02:04 PM »

Fr. John posted this on his Orthodixie site and it's great.  I hope this speech made every WCC religious liberal in that room squrm in their seats.  But I certainly don't think they're about to repent and see the error of their ways.  It is now more than ever that we need our hierarchs and clergy to shout this message from the rooftops and belltowers. 

http://orthodoxeurope.org/#19-2-445
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 01:22:39 PM »

A excellent post.


The thing about the Kingdom of Heaven is that it is not a constitutional monarchy.  HM Queen Elizabeth reads the speech the prime minister writes: Our Lord speaks His Word.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,812



« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 01:29:14 PM »

Bravo, Bishop +HILARION!

I would like to see how the other WCC delegates react. I'm sure they'll just say that it is sad, but should not deter our cause for unity of all Christianity into one hodgepodge. 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 02:32:54 PM »

Overall, bravo indeed.
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,942


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 03:25:07 PM »

Nice stuff.  It may not be a popular message, but it's right on.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,268


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 03:33:06 PM »

A much needed speech indeed.

Taking away Christianity's exclusivity takes away the central identity of Christ as the exclusive way to the Father, making it no longer Christianity.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 03:33:38 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,984



« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2008, 02:00:04 AM »

Public forums are much in need of this type of genuine Christological commentary.  His Grace is to be commended and Orthodox Christians should take note; this is "speak[ing] the truth in love;"  and this commentary is what should characterize inter-Christian dialogue.  Christianity needs far, far, more of this type of behavior.  This commentary is what Orthodox Christianity is called to do in contemporary western society.  "Many Years," Your Grace.

(And this comes from someone who hasn't been able to get over His Grace's exit from the most recent Roman Catholic-Eastern Orthodox theological dialogue in Ravenna, Italy.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 02:03:21 AM by BTRAKAS » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 05:42:48 PM »

Fr. John posted this on his Orthodixie site and it's great.  I hope this speech made every WCC religious liberal in that room squrm in their seats.  But I certainly don't think they're about to repent and see the error of their ways.  It is now more than ever that we need our hierarchs and clergy to shout this message from the rooftops and belltowers. 

http://orthodoxeurope.org/#19-2-445
I personally think your post should have been more judgmental.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 08:06:49 PM »

I personally think your post should have been more judgmental.

Huh  Mr. Y???  Forgive me please if I don't quite understand your post or its meaning.  I did not say liberal Christians are going to burn in hell for eternity.  Or that their women clergy are all raving lesbian feminists that want to emasculate Jesus and make him weak and passive.  Or, even that liberal Christians are bad dressers (Birkenstocks with brown socks).   What I did imply was that many liberal Christians and their clergy do not hold to the traditional dogmas of Christianity and they are trying to impose those values on anyone who doesn't believe truth is relative.  I guess I'm a liberal - I drive a Volvo stationwagon, hug trees, wear Birkenstocks, and am waiting for a pro-life Democrat or Green Party president, but I still believe in a male priesthood, the dignity of women as mothers, the Trinity, the Resurrection, and the Virgin Birth.  Basically whatever the Orthodox Church has professed for 1900 years.   I feel we need a smiley icon on a soapbox right about now.  I'm sure my post came off as judgmental but I think there are some things that demand speaking bluntly.  It was obviously on Bishop Hilarion's mind and he's certainly in a better position to judge these things than I am.

Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2008, 12:29:38 AM »

Oh, I didn't say you said any of those things; I said you judged these so-called "liberal Christians," wishing upon them squirming in their seats, and judging that they will not repent. You grouped everyone in the room together and passed judgment on them all--and from your wording I would venture that you do not personally know any one of them.

I'm sure my post came off as judgmental but I think there are some things that demand speaking bluntly.  It was obviously on Bishop Hilarion's mind and he's certainly in a better position to judge these things than I am.
Then let's let him say it. He does it quite well.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2008, 01:56:31 AM »

A lion for a bishop instead of a rabbit!
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2008, 09:56:02 AM »

Oh, I didn't say you said any of those things; I said you judged these so-called "liberal Christians," wishing upon them squirming in their seats, and judging that they will not repent. You grouped everyone in the room together and passed judgment on them all--and from your wording I would venture that you do not personally know any one of them.
Then let's let him say it. He does it quite well.

You are correct.  I do not know any at that meeting, but I know plenty like them in my own personal life, and while I can love them I do not have to agree, support, or somehow incorporate their beliefs into my view of traditional Christianity in order to make them feel like they are my friends.  Honest friends can and should do that. 

Now as to making people squirm, the Gospel has always had that effect on people - believers and non-believers alike.  I am sure those in the WCC, let's call them progressive Christians (liberal seems to be getting a bad rap here), believe they are interpreting the Gospel correctly.  Our Orthodox leaders and the laity (including me and you) have an obligation as 'right believers' to say "no" this is not correct, this is not what the Bible and Holy Tradition says, and we let everyone know we won't compromise the traditional message of the Gospel and our beliefs   

If it's judgmental to say I really don't believe they are going to see the errors of their ways, it is I believe, just a realistic assesment of where the WCC and its followers are going.  The history of the WCC has always been to move away from the traditional Christian view, not towards it, and I don't see them turning the ship around now.  I'd really rather believe Bishop Hilarion is right about the demise of liberal Christianity and a return to solid Christian belief. 

I'll work on the blanket statements, but sorry, I can't change my mind on the general nature of my original post. 
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2008, 05:21:20 PM »

Nektarios do you have something to say?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2008, 05:33:49 PM »

Nektarios do you have something to say?

I think the more progressive memebers of this board (or myself, at least) have been staying out of this thread so you all can continue your 'traditionalist-Christianity lovefest'. And I'm sure everyone posting here has been grateful for this...do you really want to try to pull us into this discussion?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2008, 05:43:57 PM »

I think the more progressive memebers of this board (or myself, at least) have been staying out of this thread so you all can continue your 'traditionalist-Christianity lovefest'. And I'm sure everyone posting here has been grateful for this...do you really want to try to pull us into this discussion?

OK that is truly LMAO funny GiC (whether you intended it or not)!   Cheesy
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2008, 06:28:55 PM »

Nektarios do you have something to say?

The most shocking part of that website is apparently some people on it think that French is still an important enough language to bother publishing in it.

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2008, 07:43:55 PM »

I think the more progressive memebers of this board (or myself, at least) have been staying out of this thread so you all can continue your 'traditionalist-Christianity lovefest'. And I'm sure everyone posting here has been grateful for this...do you really want to try to pull us into this discussion?

PURE GOLD FEARS NO FIRE
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 08:41:52 PM »

The most shocking part of that website is apparently some people on it think that French is still an important enough language to bother publishing in it.

Well for all intents and purposes, France can surrender and the Moscow Patriarchate parishes situated in Germany can force their Local Synods to "speak the language of the Vikings", excuse me Nordic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3FMwNSHgFI
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 08:51:00 PM »

Well for all intents and purposes, France can surrender and the Moscow Patriarchate parishes situated in Germany can force their Local Synods to "speak the language of the Vikings", excuse me Nordic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3FMwNSHgFI


And what, pray tell, does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2008, 08:53:03 PM »

But their must be a special convention held in Geneva rendering  Duetschland as its enemy laid to rest "To the Unknown Joke"


Adolf Hitler "My dog has no nose." "How does it smell?" "Awful!"
Logged
alexp4uni
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: kinda practicing theist
Jurisdiction: ecumenical kind
Posts: 329


« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2008, 08:58:08 PM »

I don't know you tell me. Your more traditionally minded than Nektarios. At least his two cents would be worth much to counter-balance His Eminence views on the subject.
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2008, 10:10:59 PM »

I think the bigger issue is Christianity becoming irrelevant in most lands which have historically been Christian.  On the eve of the Revolution Russia was the most outwardly religious of any of the major Christian powers, yet a large enough part of the populace was willing to embrace the Bolsheviks (and all the silliness of Jewish conspiracies aside, the Bolsheviks simply could not have come to power unless there was some base within the population that was willing to support, even die for them in battle).  Even today, church attendance is very low in Russia, and since it seems to be a favorite litmus test of some people here, abortion is considerably more common in Russia than in Western Europe.  That is why I'd be hesitant to call the problem liberal Christianity vs. traditional Christianity - although I do agree with his eminence's point that in some communions the level of theological liberalism has gone so far that has hurt their relevance to society.  What is the point of being a Christian if one's Christianity is simply the Zeitgeist a couple of years removed?  While it is easy to sit back and cackle at the problem within the Anglican Communion, as so many Orthodox as very fond of doing, does anybody care about how increasingly irrelevant the Orthodox Church is becoming to many people in historically Orthodox lands?
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,405


« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 11:42:22 PM »

Even today, church attendance is very low in Russia...

...does anybody care about how increasingly irrelevant the Orthodox Church is becoming to many people in historically Orthodox lands?

It is?  Compared to when?  It sounds all relative to me.  Are you saying that these many articles and information told from other Orthodox over the years about many churches being (re)built, attendance much fuller and such are inaccurate?  If attendance used to be at 2% back 20 years ago and is now at 10%, I'd say this 500% increase is quite impressive.
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2008, 11:52:37 PM »

I've read Bishop Hilarion's speech a couple of times now and I still remain a little confused as to exactly what form our responses to "liberal" or "politically correct" Christianity should take.

He asks; "In the confusing and disoriented world in which we live, where is the prophetic voice of Christians? What can we offer, or can we offer anything at all to the secular world, apart from what the secular world will offer itself as a value system on which society should be built? Do we have our own value system which we should preach, or should we simply applaud every novelty in public moraltiy which becomes fashionable in the secular society?"

Some good questions.

I consider myself neither "liberal" nor "politically correct" when it comes to making my own moral decisions, but when it comes to other people, especally non-Christians, I would be very loathe to expect them to do as I do. Or maybe allowing people the freedom to do with their lives what they will is being "liberal" and "politically correct"?

It's all very well remonstrating against the evils of secular society, but we actually live in it; and our actions towards others are to show Christ's love.

For instance, how is Bishop Hilarion suggesting we inter-relate, as Christians, with Wiccan neighbours (hypothetical), who are living in a lesbian relationship? Let's say they have a couple of children who want to play with our children and, being friendly sorts, they have invited us over for coffee and cake.






Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2008, 01:16:56 AM »

Or maybe allowing people the freedom to do with their lives what they will is being "liberal" and "politically correct"?

That is, traditionally, what 'liberal' means.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2008, 01:59:41 AM »

It is?  Compared to when?  It sounds all relative to me.  Are you saying that these many articles and information told from other Orthodox over the years about many churches being (re)built, attendance much fuller and such are inaccurate?  If attendance used to be at 2% back 20 years ago and is now at 10%, I'd say this 500% increase is quite impressive.

One to two percent is about the standard figure given for church attendance in Russsia.  These data are rather dated, but it still gives an idea (and I've seen more up to date statistics given in presentations and it is still 1 - 2 % and nothing in my personal experiences contradict that).  I just roll my eyes every time I hear Americans converts talking about the Russian religious revival and wondering if they are talking about Islam.    According to this article there are 400 or so working Orthodox temples in Moscow - do the math and then ask if that is a religious revival.  The political status of the Russian Orthodox Church has definitely had nothing but a dramatic shift, but if we are speaking about actually religiosity in society.... other than people often exclaiming Боже, or a слава Богу here and there, your not going to find a religious society in the sense that a high percentage of individuals are themselves deeply committed to their religion.  Based on some of the statistics I've seen and my own impressions of living in a Russian dorm, I think it is safe to say that the Russian Orthodox Church is in no position to gloat over churches in the evil West for their declining membership and influence over average people in their societies.  If Heorhij is reading this thread, I'd be curious if the situation with religion is about the same in Ukraine.   
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 02:00:32 AM by Νεκτάριος » Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2008, 02:01:25 AM »

That is, traditionally, what 'liberal' means.

Thanks, GIC. I've always been confused by that. So..... I'm liberal! Well, that's not likely to change. Grin
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2008, 07:58:34 AM »

I've read Bishop Hilarion's speech a couple of times now and I still remain a little confused as to exactly what form our responses to "liberal" or "politically correct" Christianity should take.

He asks; "In the confusing and disoriented world in which we live, where is the prophetic voice of Christians? What can we offer, or can we offer anything at all to the secular world, apart from what the secular world will offer itself as a value system on which society should be built? Do we have our own value system which we should preach, or should we simply applaud every novelty in public moraltiy which becomes fashionable in the secular society?"

Some good questions.

I consider myself neither "liberal" nor "politically correct" when it comes to making my own moral decisions, but when it comes to other people, especally non-Christians, I would be very loathe to expect them to do as I do. Or maybe allowing people the freedom to do with their lives what they will is being "liberal" and "politically correct"?

It's all very well remonstrating against the evils of secular society, but we actually live in it; and our actions towards others are to show Christ's love.

For instance, how is Bishop Hilarion suggesting we inter-relate, as Christians, with Wiccan neighbours (hypothetical), who are living in a lesbian relationship? Let's say they have a couple of children who want to play with our children and, being friendly sorts, they have invited us over for coffee and cake.

We of course rush out and get "Heather has two mommies," and demand our local school incorporates it into the curriculum. Roll Eyes police Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2008, 09:17:08 AM »

We of course rush out and get "Heather has two mommies," and demand our local school incorporates it into the curriculum. Roll Eyes police Roll Eyes

Very comical, I'm sure, but how does your sardonic response to my question address the issue of how we as followers of Christ inter-relate with people of differing beliefs and lifestyles? It might pay to remember that Christianity is on the back foot; perhaps on the slippery slope of being a minority religion in a lot of places; places where it once held a lot of sway. Perhaps it's on its way to being as it was in it's early days; a scorned religion with no voice. Legislation is no longer on our side, we actually have to deal (and lovingly) with people who openly do things we might disagree with.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 09:27:48 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2008, 09:41:50 AM »

Very comical, I'm sure, but how does your sardonic response to my question address the issue of how we as followers of Christ inter-relate with people of differing beliefs and lifestyles? It might pay to remember that Christianity is on the back foot; perhaps on the slippery slope of being a minority religion in a lot of places; places where it once held a lot of sway. Perhaps it's on its way to being as it was in it's early days; a scorned religion with no voice. Legislation is no longer on our side, we actually have to deal (and lovingly) with people who openly do things we might disagree with.

I've grown up in the US, where Orthodoxy has never held sway, and in Egypt, where the Muslims have run things for over a millenium.

It's not like this is a situation we haven't faced before.

But we didn't face it with accepting the unacceptable.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2008, 09:44:44 AM »

I've grown up in the US, where Orthodoxy has never held sway, and in Egypt, where the Muslims have run things for over a millenium.

It's not like this is a situation we haven't faced before.

But we didn't face it with accepting the unacceptable.

Again, you don't address my concerns. I didn't say we had to accept it for ourselves, but asked how do we inter-relate with others who do?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 09:46:21 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
TinaG
I am not a pessimist - I'm just grimly realistic!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 870


If only my family were this normal !


WWW
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2008, 10:25:50 AM »

Again, you don't address my concerns. I didn't say we had to accept it for ourselves, but asked how do we inter-relate with others who do?

Riddikulus has a very valid question and hasn't gotten a straight answer yet, but it's probably something that isn't answered with black and white statements.  I think there are 2 arguments going on here.  BIshop Hilarion is addressing the "Church's" position in the world and this thread is also about how individual Christians face the same challenges of liberal christianity in personal day-to-day situations.   I guess we do it with love but with a firmness of our convictions.  Though what often happens, at least with women my age because we were raised to be nice to everyone and to seek approval, is that we often just smile and try to placate the situation.  For instance, in a casual conversation at one of my kid's baseball events recently, a father was going on and on about how his daughter was being left out of her Catholic faith and it was unfair because she couldn't be ordained a priest, etc...  I said something lame and non-committal and it was only afterwards I thought of some good responses, loving but grounded in traditional RC/Orthodox POV.  Some witness I am.   Embarrassed

In another example, I have always found the study of different religions fascinating, so when I meet someone of another faith I ask them about it because I am genuinely interested.  This has the effect of making them feel comfortable and like I'm not going to immediately come down on them with the "Jesus" talk.  But it does give me an opportunity to talk about my faith in relation to theirs.   

These are individual interactions, and yes, it is far harder to be judgmental (as I have been found out to be) of others one-on-one.  Would I let my kids play with the kids of a pagan lesbian couple?  They probably already have in school or at the playground.  Would I let them spend go to a sleepover and participate in whatever prayers/blessings they say at meals?  I doubt it.  It's a situation that would be less likely to come up, since our kids are more exposed to Christians of some variety in my town.  That is why I have frequent conversations with them about their faith.  I point out there are other faiths among their friends, why we believe differently, and even use my own conversion as an example.

I hope I didn't ramble too much, but I don't feel like I've really given a clear response yet.   Our Lord and Saviour never flinched from speaking the truth and challenging the misconceptions of his day, and his world was as divided religiously as ours is, but I'd say even more rigidly so.  I'd say I agree with Ridikulus, that in some places traditional Christianity is scorned already, and it may get worse.  That's why there is no time to lose and we shouldn't give up the fight.  Isn't that why some feel we are in the Last Days? 
Logged

On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2008, 02:28:30 PM »

Tina,

Where I live there is tolerance for any point of view except a traditional Christian one. Very ironic, since many of these supposed tolerant individuals pretend to be open to hearing any perspective. Not so in real life. If you mention you are pro-life get ready to be verbally attacked for having that belief. It happened to me on various occasions in my life.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 02:29:39 PM by Tamara » Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2008, 03:48:15 PM »

Tina,

Where I live there is tolerance for any point of view except a traditional Christian one. Very ironic, since many of these supposed tolerant individuals pretend to be open to hearing any perspective. Not so in real life. If you mention you are pro-life get ready to be verbally attacked for having that belief. It happened to me on various occasions in my life.


Bingo. I think Liberals dont even mind listening to a centre-right or even right wing voice, as long as religion doesn't get involved. You mention that you're a practising Christian and all of a sudden they don't want to hear you.
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2008, 08:22:30 PM »

Where I live there is tolerance for any point of view except a traditional Christian one. Very ironic, since many of these supposed tolerant individuals pretend to be open to hearing any perspective. Not so in real life. If you mention you are pro-life get ready to be verbally attacked for having that belief. It happened to me on various occasions in my life.

Quote
Bingo. I think Liberals dont even mind listening to a centre-right or even right wing voice, as long as religion doesn't get involved. You mention that you're a practising Christian and all of a sudden they don't want to hear you.

But what does any of this matter? If others are hypocritical, we are called to "suffer" for our faith, to be reviled for the sake of Christ. Christians have and probably will suffer much more in the way of persecution than disregard and verbal abuse. These slights might be hurtful, but they seem very insignificant in the overall scheme of things. Politically, Christ left this world the way he found it; it is the inner change of individuals that matters and only those who are enlightened wish to turn from sin. Is it then the task of the enlightened to impose moral restrictions on non-believers? (And I'm not suggesting that either of you are saying that). But many Christians do wish to manage the moral behaviour of outsiders. As I understand St Paul, that's a no go area.

1Corinthians 5:9-13.
"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person. For what have I do do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore, put away from yourselves the evil person."


« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 08:24:57 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2008, 08:47:29 PM »

But what does any of this matter? If others are hypocritical, we are called to "suffer" for our faith, to be reviled for the sake of Christ. Christians have and probably will suffer much more in the way of persecution than disregard and verbal abuse. These slights might be hurtful, but they seem very insignificant in the overall scheme of things. Politically, Christ left this world the way he found it; it is the inner change of individuals that matters and only those who are enlightened wish to turn from sin. Is it then the task of the enlightened to impose moral restrictions on non-believers? (And I'm not suggesting that either of you are saying that). But many Christians do wish to manage the moral behaviour of outsiders. As I understand St Paul, that's a no go area.

1Corinthians 5:9-13.
"I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person. For what have I do do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore, put away from yourselves the evil person."


It did not hurt my feelings when they disagreed with me. I just found it ironic that they considered themselves enlightened and yet were not even willing to hear a different point of view. And by the way, I don't consider these folks evil. I think they are good souls who have been misinformed and misguided due to heavy propaganda. I feel sorry for them.
Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2008, 01:43:44 PM »

But what does any of this matter? If others are hypocritical, we are called to "suffer" for our faith, to be reviled for the sake of Christ. Christians have and probably will suffer much more in the way of persecution than disregard and verbal abuse. These slights might be hurtful, but they seem very insignificant in the overall scheme of things. Politically, Christ left this world the way he found it; it is the inner change of individuals that matters and only those who are enlightened wish to turn from sin. Is it then the task of the enlightened to impose moral restrictions on non-believers? (And I'm not suggesting that either of you are saying that). But many Christians do wish to manage the moral behaviour of outsiders. As I understand St Paul, that's a no go area.




So basically Liberal Christians are traitors since they do not endure the suffering Conservative/Traditionalist Christians don't, but rather find a way to avoid it?

I understand you completely, and it is something I often think about. You cannot, and you shouldn't force your morals on other people, especially if they do not recieve their guidance from the same source as you. However, I believe secular society is forcing its morals (or lack of) onto us traditional Christians. Do you understand what I'm saying? It is hypocrisy, because I am pressured to give up my "conservative" views and accept "liberal" ideals, which is very ironic. As a result, It only forces me to become more and more conservative.
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,208


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2008, 09:53:00 PM »

However, I believe secular society is forcing its morals (or lack of) onto us traditional Christians. 

Living in the SF Bay Area, I would agree with this statement. In some areas of the country, people are being forced to conform out of fear. I don't know anyone in my neighborhood or community who is willing to challenge the very liberal status quo. The fear of being ostracized or being labeled a "fundamentalist" is too great. Most just keep their mouths shut in public. In private you will hear parents complain. Even parents who give the appearance of being  secular and liberal are a part of these discussions. I realized how bad it was when one secular, fairly liberal parent complained in private about the sex ed. curriculum at our middle school because it encouraged middle schoolers to experiment with their sexuality. But this mother was afraid to speak out in the public school forum which presented this information for fear of being labeled a fundy. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 12:14:28 AM by Tamara » Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2008, 05:40:16 AM »

So basically Liberal Christians are traitors since they do not endure the suffering Conservative/Traditionalist Christians don't, but rather find a way to avoid it?

I'm probably tired, but I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote
I understand you completely, and it is something I often think about. You cannot, and you shouldn't force your morals on other people, especially if they do not recieve their guidance from the same source as you. However, I believe secular society is forcing its morals (or lack of) onto us traditional Christians. Do you understand what I'm saying? It is hypocrisy, because I am pressured to give up my "conservative" views and accept "liberal" ideals, which is very ironic. As a result, It only forces me to become more and more conservative.

I hardly think our society is worse than the one of early Christians. And how are you being pressured to give up your conservatieve views and accept liberal ideals? Is it because you won't adopt a "live and let live" philosophy towards those outside the Church? And how does this relate to my original question of how Bishop Hilarion would suggest we deal with those outside the Church?  Shocked Grin
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2008, 01:21:30 PM »

I'm really curious as to how people are being "pressured" to adopt liberal views.  I spend all day at the heart of a liberal university and simply have no idea what is meant by people saying they are pressured.  I've never experienced a situation akin to "if you don't hold view X, you'll fail this class / face other troubles."  Of course you might not be "cool" or in the "in crowd", but if that is the biggest problem one faces...   
Logged
Sloga
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 830



« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2008, 02:05:28 PM »

I'm really curious as to how people are being "pressured" to adopt liberal views.  I spend all day at the heart of a liberal university and simply have no idea what is meant by people saying they are pressured.  I've never experienced a situation akin to "if you don't hold view X, you'll fail this class / face other troubles."  Of course you might not be "cool" or in the "in crowd", but if that is the biggest problem one faces...   

I hardly think our society is worse than the one of early Christians. And how are you being pressured to give up your conservatieve views and accept liberal ideals? Is it because you won't adopt a "live and let live" philosophy towards those outside the Church? And how does this relate to my original question of how Bishop Hilarion would suggest we deal with those outside the Church?  Shocked Grin

Here's the thing. These people aren't actually liberal. The meaning of Liberalism has obviously changed over time but its original adherents believed in open-mindedness and liberty. Liberalism today is basically (Atleast here in southern Ontario) a form hardcore secular and anti-christian progressiveness. Now, the irony behind all this is the "Liberalism" I encounter every day, for the most part, is that it interacts negatively only to conservative christians, where as conservative Muslims are to be tolerated and understood (as they should). But then why not offer the same thing to us Christians? or is it because theyre sick of us, and will eventually get sick of Islam?

I remember in Highschool, multiple times, (especially during my philosophy course), when we would have debates and because in some of my positions I would use a Christian point to back my opinion up, Its like I would be dismissed. For example, whenever debating freewill vs fate, I would obviously take the side of free will through religious reasons and I would sufficiently back them up with logical points. But since I am literally the only practising Christian in the class, the 20 or so of them vs me would result in an automatic loss (in the teachers eyes). If you profess your faith in Christ, you get attacked and pounded on by other people, going off topic from the debate and actually having people attack your religion. So much for open-mindedness liberalism.

Then on a funny note, I remember doing a Universal Declaration of Human Rights debate, and one of the main points as to why it should not be implemented is because it does not take into account Shari'ah law in muslim countries. Nobody atacked Islam or bother to debate against the point...
Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2008, 02:45:51 PM »

Here's the thing. These people aren't actually liberal. The meaning of Liberalism has obviously changed over time but its original adherents believed in open-mindedness and liberty. Liberalism today is basically (Atleast here in southern Ontario) a form hardcore secular and anti-christian progressiveness.

Yeah, there is pretty much no rhyme or reason as to how these terms are used in which locales.  By the real definition, I'd be a liberal since I'm a firm believer in neo-liberal economic policies.  So in the US that makes me a conservative, but if I say that I'm a conservative in parts of Eastern Europe that basically makes me an updated communist.  Any why neo-liberal economics is connected to various social positions in the US baffles me... so the actual definition of what a person means when they say liberal can be quite enigmatic.  But, I think you guys in the frozen tundra to the north use liberal and conservative in about the same way us as yanks, from what you said.

Quote
Now, the irony behind all this is the "Liberalism" I encounter every day, for the most part, is that it interacts negatively only to conservative christians, where as conservative Muslims are to be tolerated and understood (as they should). But then why not offer the same thing to us Christians? or is it because theyre sick of us, and will eventually get sick of Islam?

I think they become pro-Islamic just to grate conservative Christians.  That is why I find all the current liberal uproar over Darfur to be ironic, as the darfurian culture practices just about everything liberals hate in conservatives times 100. 

Quote
I remember in Highschool, multiple times, (especially during my philosophy course), when we would have debates and because in some of my positions I would use a Christian point to back my opinion up, Its like I would be dismissed. For example, whenever debating freewill vs fate, I would obviously take the side of free will through religious reasons and I would sufficiently back them up with logical points. But since I am literally the only practising Christian in the class, the 20 or so of them vs me would result in an automatic loss (in the teachers eyes).

Part of a debate is making a point which your audience can relate to. 

Quote
If you profess your faith in Christ, you get attacked and pounded on by other people, going off topic from the debate and actually having people attack your religion. So much for open-mindedness liberalism.

It's not like conservatives are all warm and cuddly either, scan some right wing blogs about US politics and it won't take long before people start throwing out words like godless - which is pretty much a religious attack when used in that manner.   

Quote
Then on a funny note, I remember doing a Universal Declaration of Human Rights debate, and one of the main points as to why it should not be implemented is because it does not take into account Shari'ah law in muslim countries. Nobody atacked Islam or bother to debate against the point...

And that is just plain stupidity.  Islamism is one of the major forces impeding the spread of liberty in the world.  Where I differ from conservatives though is that I think a gradual change is going to be the most stable and presents the best prospect at establishing long term social change.  That is why I believe in not taking an anti-Islamic political stance. 

In high school a good deal of my friends were Mormons as we really had the most in common socially.  We definitely did not agree on the particulars of religion, but on a lot of the basics of morality we did.  At university I'll also become friends with a lot of moderate Muslims for the same reason.  I think that sort of approach works best in pacifying radical leftists / secularists. 
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2008, 08:05:36 PM »

Here's the thing. These people aren't actually liberal. The meaning of Liberalism has obviously changed over time but its original adherents believed in open-mindedness and liberty. Liberalism today is basically (Atleast here in southern Ontario) a form hardcore secular and anti-christian progressiveness. Now, the irony behind all this is the "Liberalism" I encounter every day, for the most part, is that it interacts negatively only to conservative christians, where as conservative Muslims are to be tolerated and understood (as they should). But then why not offer the same thing to us Christians? or is it because theyre sick of us, and will eventually get sick of Islam?

But the objective of Bishop Hilarion's speech is a remonstation against Christian libralism. And that is the point of my question. It seems to be established that a liberal Christian is one who accepts that people outside the Church are free to make whatever moral choices they so choose (freewill and all that); a decision that St Paul seems to advocate. A liberal Christian's conduct with such people is to accept them and love them unconditional to the fact that they are living in lifestyles that Christianity does not condone; without trying to change them; just showing them Christ (and thus preaching the Gospel) in their attitudes.

Quote
So much for open-mindedness liberalism.

Again, the hypocrisy of those outside the Church isn't our concern, and it doesn't appear to be the thrust of Bishop's Hilarion's speech.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 08:06:25 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2008, 08:34:21 PM »

But the objective of Bishop Hilarion's speech is a remonstation against Christian libralism. And that is the point of my question. It seems to be established that a liberal Christian is one who accepts that people outside the Church are free to make whatever moral choices they so choose (freewill and all that); a decision that St Paul seems to advocate. A liberal Christian's conduct with such people is to accept them and love them unconditional to the fact that they are living in lifestyles that Christianity does not condone; without trying to change them; just showing them Christ (and thus preaching the Gospel) in their attitudes.

Again, the hypocrisy of those outside the Church isn't our concern, and it doesn't appear to be the thrust of Bishop's Hilarion's speech.



Of course they/we are to try to change them.


"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, teaching them all that I have commanded you...."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2008, 09:36:33 PM »

I thought His Grace's speech was right on the money.

To answer your question, Riddikulus...

I think there's a difference between loving people no matter what they're sin, and condoning the sin itself.  What Bishop Hilarion was saying was not that we shouldn't love them, but rather that we shouldn't be condoning the sins.  It's the classic "love the sinner, hate the sin."

For example, say I, as an Orthodox Christian, have a neighbor/friend who is a lesbian in a long-term relationship.  I think he's saying, as Christians, we of course welcome them into our homes, show them love (absent of judgement), and if the subject comes up, yes, we tell them honestly what we believe-- we don't say "you're going to hell for what you're doing," or "the Church says you are wrong..."  What we say is, "we believe X..."-- we say the truth in love absent of judgement.  And we make it clear that they are, of COURSE, welcome into our Churches.  Just because the Church doesn't condone the lifestyle doesn't mean we don't love the sinner and welcome them.  The Church is a hospital for sinners, and their sin is no worse than any of ours.  Fornication is just as sinful when done heterosexually, and we should proclaim that JUST as loudly as we proclaim it as sinful within homosexuality.

What he's saying the liberal Christian camp does is welcome them into their churches with the understanding that their church allows, condones, blesses, and encourages their sins.  This is where the problem is.  Struggling with homosexuality is nothing to be ashamed of, I don't think.  I had a homosexual Orthodox friend who suffered constantly with his sexuality because it meant that he was alone, but thank God, he did so without being ashamed of the suffering.  He was ashamed for ALL of his sins, none more than any other.  If one is struggling for Christ, then that is nothing to be ashamed of.  The point is to struggle, to continue to seek perfection in Christ, no matter what your sin.  The problem with the liberal Christian camp is that it encourages succumbing to the temptation, it encourages the person to live by their own will, rather than admit humility and live by the will of God.  This is a problem.

As far as political liberal Christianity... I have been rethinking this and praying about it a lot, during this election season.  Honestly, I've been thinking about it because of the discussion I had way back with GiC and Nektarios about the candidates.  They enlightened me a lot to the thinking behind being Orthodox but being politically liberal.  Of course I am pro-life, but the fact is that there is virtually no candidate out there who truly understands the sanctity of life, such that they apply it to ALL of the big three (abortion, death penalty, war).  Anyway... If I understand correctly from them (guys, feel free to correct me), it's not about your personal morals, it's about forcing others to live by them by LEGISLATING morals (legislating against abortion, legislating against gay marriage, etc.).  To be honest, I haven't changed my mind about being pro-life, but I HAVE changed my mind about legislating against gay marriage.  I think it's clear that, as Christians, we shouldn't force our morals on other people, we should only love them and try to minister to them without judgement.  And as long as the government is not able to force the Orthodox Church to perform a gay marriage, I have no problem with people of a homosexual persuasion doing whatever they want with their own lives.  Of course I don't condone the sin, but I can't force them to live by my morals.  I can only love them, pray for them (without judgement), and show them by my example what Christianity is about, and that Christ is WORTH the struggle.  And, God willing, if they ask for help, I will be thrilled and praise God, and direct them straight to my husband (who is a priest), as he is more able to minister to them in a confessional manner than I am (obviously).

Sorry that's so long, but I hope it's clear.  Forgive me if I have offended...
In Christ,
Presbytera Mari
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.15 seconds with 71 queries.