OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 09:34:31 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Concerning the title of this forum-section  (Read 4169 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« on: February 06, 2008, 10:19:00 PM »

Hi all,

There is much I like about this forum (as you could probably guess from the amount of time I've spent here), but I have to ask:
If Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants don't all worship the same God (cf. this post), then isn't it a little misleading to title this section "Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion"?

Wouldn't it be more appropriate, and indeed more honest, to instead title it "Discussion between Orthodox and people who call themselves Christians, but actually worship a different God"?

(This thread is a shoot from the Imagine if..... thread. I thought it appropriate to start a new thread, as my question is pretty far from the original purpose of that thread.)

God bless you all,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2008, 10:22:49 PM »

Issues of theology aside, 'Discussion between Orthodox and people who call themselves Christians, but actually worship a different God' just doesn't sound very inviting. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2008, 10:44:11 PM »

^^ True. Wink But I don't think the decision should be based solely on how inviting a particular title is.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2008, 11:23:52 PM »

Wouldn't it be more appropriate, and indeed more honest, to instead title it "Discussion between Orthodox and people who call themselves Christians, but actually worship a different God"?
But what if they don't worship a different God? What if they don't teach a God Who is different to the One revealed through the Apostles?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2008, 11:29:39 PM »

"Are you Protestant or Christian" sound better?

 Undecided
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 12:15:25 AM »

Well the idea that we worship a different God is really a question of degrees. In a sense, we all worship different Gods until we stop worshiping ourselves and focus on the Uncreated being as the priority of our lives.

I can understand how theologically one could argue that we worship different Gods based on our presumption that God is how he has revealed himself in the Orthodox Church and those who don't know him in his own body can't really "know" him.  However, we also have to remember that God loves the whole world, so much that he sent his son Jesus Christ to die for us on the Cross and unite us to him, and that the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, to bring people to this truth.  In this understanding, how can we say that people who pray to "God" are not being heard by the same God we know we are addressing when we say our prayers? There is, after all, only one God.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 12:25:46 AM »

But what if they don't worship a different God? What if they don't teach a God Who is different to the One revealed through the Apostles?

Ozgeorge,

Does the truth change depending on what day it is? On Sunday you said:

At least I can prove that Papist worships a different god based on his own words.

(You also made related statements
here and here, which can be view by anyone with access to the Private Forums.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 12:33:49 AM »

Anastasios,

In this understanding, how can we say that people who pray to "God" are not being heard by the same God we know we are addressing when we say our prayers? There is, after all, only one God.

So would you put Catholics and Protestants in the same category as Muslims, Hindus, etc., who also address prayers to "God"?

-Peter.

P.S. It's getting late here, but tomorrow I will give some more thought to the things you've said.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 10:39:25 AM »

In my opinion, I have always worshipped the same God, even as a Protestant. Eventually I found that my faith in the one God would no longer allow me to remain in the Protestant church, and I went looking for the true Church in which to worship God. I made prayers my whole life to the God I have always worshipped, always in ignorance but never to a different deity. As a result, I was able to recognize true worship when I saw it. So it will be in the last day for those who have worshipped the true God. They may very well be Hindu or Muslim in this life, but if they recognize the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as the God they worship when they come before the Judgement Seat--if they are able to call upon Him for salvation--they will be saved (Joel 2:32).
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 04:59:53 PM »

Ozgeorge,

Does the truth change depending on what day it is? On Sunday you said:

(You also made related statements
here and here, which can be view by anyone with access to the Private Forums.)

I had no idea that Papist speaks for all of Roman Catholicism.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 05:32:32 PM »

I had no idea that Papist speaks for all of Roman Catholicism.

He doesn't.

Seems to me you're just taking advantage of the fact that I can't quote what you said on the private forum (specifically, this statement).
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 05:42:25 PM by PJ » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 05:41:19 PM »

He doesn't.
But all my posts are directed at him, and you say they are directed at all Catholics....ergo Papist represents all Roman Catholics as far as you are concerned. Smiley
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2008, 05:42:57 PM »

Seems to me you're just taking advantage of the fact that I can't quote what you said on the private forum (especially here).

"If" is a little word on which much hinges.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2008, 05:57:16 PM »

In my opinion, I have always worshipped the same God, even as a Protestant. Eventually I found that my faith in the one God would no longer allow me to remain in the Protestant church, and I went looking for the true Church in which to worship God. I made prayers my whole life to the God I have always worshipped, always in ignorance but never to a different deity. As a result, I was able to recognize true worship when I saw it. So it will be in the last day for those who have worshipped the true God. They may very well be Hindu or Muslim in this life, but if they recognize the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as the God they worship when they come before the Judgement Seat--if they are able to call upon Him for salvation--they will be saved (Joel 2:32).

Thank you for your thoughts, ytterbiumanalyst.

I don't want to sound like a professional complainer or lobbyist, but ...

Just the fact that you guys consider it an open question, or matter of opinion, whether or not Catholics like me (and Protestants) worship the same God you worship, is enough to make me question whether this is a forum I ought to be participating on.

(Of course, the most likely result of my questioning is that I'll end up compromising with myself: continuing to read and post here but just curtailing it a bit.)

Thanks and God bless,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2008, 06:09:16 PM »

Oh, we question whether other Orthodox worship the same God we do as well. Wink

Seriously, though, having right belief is quite important, and worshiping the one God is central to having right belief. We want everyone to worship the one God and not one or more of the myriad of false gods. So when we say "this description of God does not match the God I worship," it is because we sincerely test everything to see whether it is of our God, the God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There is no other God but He.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2008, 06:42:04 PM »

I had no idea that Papist speaks for all of Roman Catholicism.

Duh. why do you think I picked the name Papist. But it is reallly Thomas Aquinas and the Pope who defined the doctrine of the Beatific Vision that you have beef with.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2008, 06:43:09 PM »

But all my posts are directed at him, and you say they are directed at all Catholics....ergo Papist represents all Roman Catholics as far as you are concerned. Smiley
Good to see one use the word ergo with my name following immediately thereafter.  Wink
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2008, 09:30:22 PM »

Hi ytterbiumanalyst,

Seriously, though, having right belief is quite important, and worshiping the one God is central to having right belief. We want everyone to worship the one God and not one or more of the myriad of false gods. So when we say "this description of God does not match the God I worship," it is because we sincerely test everything to see whether it is of our God, the God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There is no other God but He.

I'm not sure what you're responding to.

I don't have a problem with anyone who says "The filioque formula is false." or "The filioque formula is a description of God that does not match the God I worship."

I do have a problem with those Orthodox who say "Anyone who believes the filioque formula worships a different God than I worship."

-Peter.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 09:34:51 PM by PJ » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 06:38:11 AM »

I do have a problem with those Orthodox who say "Anyone who believes the filioque formula worships a different God than I worship."
It's OK to have a problem with it.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 05:51:42 PM »

I don't have a problem with anyone who says "The filioque formula is false." or "The filioque formula is a description of God that does not match the God I worship."

I do have a problem with those Orthodox who say "Anyone who believes the filioque formula worships a different God than I worship."
I mean that theology is essentially describing God. Thus the filioque formula, to use your example, is a description of God. Those who believe that the Son is begotten of the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father are Orthodox because this description of God is in line with who our God has revealed Himself to be. Those who believe that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son believe in a god whose fundamental essence is different from that which our God has revealed to us. Different essence, different God.

Now, this is not to say that all who say the filioque worship a different God. It could be that a person believes that "proceeds from the Father and the Son" is fundamentally the same as "proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son." The latter is actually Orthodox belief; the former is not. So if one believes the latter, not the former, his faith is not negated by a misunderstanding of the filioque. Such a person, in my opinion, worships the true God. But for those who do understand the filioque and say it with the full intent of placing the Spirit in a lower position (and there are Catholics and Protestants alike who do), their god has a fundamentally different essence from our God.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Amdetsion
Worship God with all thy strength and all thy might
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Patriarchate; Addis Abebe Ethiopia
Posts: 931


HH Abuna Pawlos - Patriarch of Ethiopia


« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 06:21:48 PM »

In my opinion, I have always worshipped the same God, even as a Protestant. Eventually I found that my faith in the one God would no longer allow me to remain in the Protestant church, and I went looking for the true Church in which to worship God. I made prayers my whole life to the God I have always worshipped, always in ignorance but never to a different deity. As a result, I was able to recognize true worship when I saw it. So it will be in the last day for those who have worshipped the true God. They may very well be Hindu or Muslim in this life, but if they recognize the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as the God they worship when they come before the Judgement Seat--if they are able to call upon Him for salvation--they will be saved (Joel 2:32).

Very nicely said...

I pray this is so.

I always hoped that in prayer we all reach to the one God even if a Hindu (for example) needs to line up 15 or more statues to represent all the different affirmations of the 'one' God..

The Greeks found God by having a whole bundle of various human-like Gods as well as one God which Paul found had no name. Since they were earnest in faith the Greeks new when they were upon the right path and accepted God in His unique oneness in the name of Christ Jesus.

Thanks

Lord have mercy on us.
Logged

"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
Tags: OC.net Features 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.084 seconds with 48 queries.