Author Topic: Creation Museum Family Visit  (Read 20639 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,516
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2008, 04:21:32 PM »
Quote
By the same logic, if you can't believe in observable truths of the very world in which you live, how can you believe in that which you cannot see? Those who claim to believe in God and use this as an excuse to deny that which they can observe in the world cannot be said to truly believe.


"Superlative is their folly, for they prejudge divine things from human." Tertullian 207 A.D.

"If one expects to comprehend all things by the senses, he has fallen far from the truth." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.


"Men either undertake religion and pay no attention to wisdom, or else they devote themselves to wisdom alone and pay no attention to religion. However, the one cannot be true without the other." Lactiontius 310 A.D.


"The fountain of wisdom and religion is God. And if those two streams turn aside from Him, they will dry up. For those who are ignorant of Him cannot be wise or religious." Lactantius 310 A.D.





JNORM888
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2008, 10:21:11 PM »
Interesting quotations. Unfortunately, in their quest to look to God as the fountain of wisdom and religion, the creators of this museum prejudge human things from the divine. Expecting to comprehend all things by their own interpretation of Scripture, they have fallen far from the truth.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline NihilNominis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2008, 12:06:47 AM »
There is error on both sides.  Truth is elusive; hence Christ calls his way "narrow".

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2008, 03:19:33 PM »
There is error on both sides.
There always will be as long as humans are on both sides. :)
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline NihilNominis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »
 :laugh:

Offline ComingHome

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2008, 02:18:50 PM »
Here is a link that some might find interesting concerning the topic of the Creation Museum:

 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27119188

An interesting statistic: 
Quote
The museum in rural northern Kentucky, a 30-minute drive south of Cincinnati, has drawn more than 550,000 visitors in 15 1/2 months, by its own count.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,229
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2008, 02:33:21 PM »
They raised $27 Million in private funding for said museum - The Prosperity Gospel works after all.   ;D

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2008, 12:44:20 PM »
Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.  If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory. 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 12:45:59 PM by username! »

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2008, 01:22:39 PM »
^ Post of the Month nominee!
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,668
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2008, 01:43:39 PM »
^ Post of the Month nominee!

For the social(ist) Gospel.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Riddikulus

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,788
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2008, 11:38:28 PM »
I second the nomination for post of the month!
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2008, 01:03:08 AM »
Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.

Why help others in the first place?  Shouldn't it be survival of the fittest for the evolutionist? 

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

Quote
If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory.

Their bible is not just Matthew 25.  ::)

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2008, 01:28:47 AM »
Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.

Why help others in the first place?  Shouldn't it be survival of the fittest for the evolutionist? 

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

Quote
If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory.

Their bible is not just Matthew 25.  ::)


So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.  I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25. 

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2008, 01:39:06 AM »
Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

Those billions have pushed science to new levels, created new medicines, saved lives, and improved our standard of living...the advancement of science benefits all of humanity. Those 27 million dollars accomplished nothing more than the spreading of ignorance and superstition and the undermining of scientific advancement, the very thing that leads to the improvement of the human race.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2008, 05:48:19 AM »
Those billions have pushed science to new levels, created new medicines, saved lives, and improved our standard of living...the advancement of science benefits all of humanity.

Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  ::) 

Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2008, 06:06:36 AM »
So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.

I say it's a wise investment, and it's not even tax-payers' money.  By now, the museum should be generating income, and the proceeds can be used for charity. 

I will not be surprised if they are actually doing that today.

Quote
I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25.

And you should be aware that there are other lessons to learn from the rest of the Bible.  Think of the Parable of the Talents.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2008, 08:18:27 AM »
Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.
See? Shows how scientists really are smart after all.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2008, 02:49:45 PM »
Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  ::) 

No, just physics, biology, and astronomy. Though I'm sure if abiogenesis came up, you'd take a cheap shot at Organic Chemistry as well. In the end, it is the task of science to challenge conventional thought and our presuppositions...to hold nothing as sacred and only allow that which survives its rigorous analysis. Accordingly, it is inevitable that it conflicts with religion.

Quote
Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max. It was during the clinical trials of this drug that it was discovered that it improves blood flow throughout the entire body, most notably around the genitals...thus a very notable side effect was the creating an erection in men and increasing lubrication in women, both of which can lead to increased libido (assuming, for both sexes, of course, that the problem is physical rather than psychological/neurological, which is more often the case with men, which is the reason for a higher success rate of these drugs amongst men).

Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

So why don't you pop some Sildenafil Citrate or Vardenafil or Tadalafil (though you might want to wait until next Friday for that one, it has something like an 18 hour half-life) and get some exercise and recreation today? Your heart will be healthier and you'll be happier tomorrow.

But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria. And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification. Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?

Quote
And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.

If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it. It has developed a few advancements in astronomy, radio technology, and, especially, radio astronomy...but probably not enough to justify the price tag (of course, compared with the Creation Museum which has and will contribute NOTHING to scientific or technolgical advancement, SETI is a bargain...it's all relative). But, of course, SETI has only cost millions, your claim is that this pursuit has cost billions...to consider that price tag one must look at the entire space program.

Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

Then there are the scientific advancements, too numerous to list...but I'll give a few highlights, the Hubble Space Telescope, at first attacked as a waste of tax dollars because of its flawed optics has since given us the best pictures of deep space ever seen by humans...but it's done more than that, the technology developed for the telescope lead directly to the development of Charge Coupled Device chips for digital imaging of breast biopsies...which has saved thousands of lives. Other technoogies include the MRI, Lazer Angioplasty, Ultrasound application to burn victims, auotmated urinalysis, programable pace maker, water purification without chlorine, enriched baby food, scratch resistant lenses, cubing of semi-conductor technology, and numerous advancements in aeronautics...just to name a few.

And all this is in 50 years of the space program...what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Riddikulus

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,788
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2008, 09:16:34 PM »
^^While I agree in essense with the above post, I would like to point out that most early scientists were Christians; even those investigating evolution. I also believe that had it not been for fundamentalists, in various ages, ignoring scientific evidence and stubbornly clinging to literal interpretations of Genesis we would not have the chasm between science and religion that we have today. As a result, many people have made the choice for science alone, leaving the faith because they feel that they can no longer accomodate the medieval mindset of fundamentalism. This "either/or" situation is something that fundamentalist Christians should be deeply ashamed of. The point of Christianity is the salvation of mankind and fundamentalist Christians, in their pitiful and wilful ignorance of science, have put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of far too many souls.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,516
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2008, 09:50:11 PM »
So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.

I say it's a wise investment, and it's not even tax-payers' money.  By now, the museum should be generating income, and the proceeds can be used for charity. 

I will not be surprised if they are actually doing that today.

Quote
I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25.

And you should be aware that there are other lessons to learn from the rest of the Bible.  Think of the Parable of the Talents.




I agree,


These people are not stupid. I know alot of the people on this forum think they are, but that's far from the truth. There is a British and an American history to all of this that goes back to the 16 hundreds.....Maybe even before then.

Creationism is not a myth, and any "Christian" who thinks it is, is automatically assuming either an "Atheistic" worldview or a Monistic worldview in which matter is eternal.

If matter is not eternal

and if something """CAN'T""" come from nothing (all by itself)

Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.

Now there are many different forms of Creationism. They are not all the same.

The school of thought of that Museum is of the Y.E.C. (Young Earth creationism)

But there are other schools of thought as well. Like:

O.E.C. (Old Earth Creationism)

and

T.E. (Theistic Evolution)


And there maybe hybrids of the three different models. So everyone who believes in God is a Creationist. There is no getting around it.



Now some may hate the word "Creationism" because it has been demonized by the secular humanists/Atheists. But if you are not an Atheist, if you are not an Agnostic, if you are not a secular humanist, then why should that word be a problem?


Those who believe in God will """always""" have a different presupposition than those who either "hate God" (Maltheists) or "reject His existence" (Atheists).


We will always interprete the physical evidence differently. And I am comfortable in knowing that fact. It doesn't bother me at all.

We are different and we will always be different from those who base everything through the eyes of "Philosophical Naturalism"/Scientific Materialism".





JNORM888
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:04:50 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Online ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,668
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2008, 10:42:26 PM »
Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  ::) 

No, just physics, biology, and astronomy. Though I'm sure if abiogenesis came up, you'd take a cheap shot at Organic Chemistry as well. In the end, it is the task of science to challenge conventional thought and our presuppositions...to hold nothing as sacred and only allow that which survives its rigorous analysis. Accordingly, it is inevitable that it conflicts with religion

and other scientists.  Bohr remarked that his theories would become accepted when the holders of the others died out.

Quote
Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

Quote
No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max. It was during the clinical trials of this drug that it was discovered that it improves blood flow throughout the entire body, most notably around the genitals...thus a very notable side effect was the creating an erection in men and increasing lubrication in women, both of which can lead to increased libido (assuming, for both sexes, of course, that the problem is physical rather than psychological/neurological, which is more often the case with men, which is the reason for a higher success rate of these drugs amongst men).

Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

So why don't you pop some Sildenafil Citrate or Vardenafil or Tadalafil (though you might want to wait until next Friday for that one, it has something like an 18 hour half-life) and get some exercise and recreation today? Your heart will be healthier and you'll be happier tomorrow.

But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria. And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification. Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?
[/quote]

I'd bring up bioethics, but....

Quote
And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.

Quote
If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it. It has developed a few advancements in astronomy, radio technology, and, especially, radio astronomy...but probably not enough to justify the price tag (of course, compared with the Creation Museum which has and will contribute NOTHING to scientific or technolgical advancement, SETI is a bargain...it's all relative). But, of course, SETI has only cost millions, your claim is that this pursuit has cost billions...to consider that price tag one must look at the entire space program.

Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

Then there are the scientific advancements, too numerous to list...but I'll give a few highlights, the Hubble Space Telescope, at first attacked as a waste of tax dollars because of its flawed optics has since given us the best pictures of deep space ever seen by humans...but it's done more than that, the technology developed for the telescope lead directly to the development of Charge Coupled Device chips for digital imaging of breast biopsies...which has saved thousands of lives. Other technoogies include the MRI, Lazer Angioplasty, Ultrasound application to burn victims, auotmated urinalysis, programable pace maker, water purification without chlorine, enriched baby food, scratch resistant lenses, cubing of semi-conductor technology, and numerous advancements in aeronautics...just to name a few.

And all this is in 50 years of the space program...what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?
4000+ years?  I thought you thought we made it up just over 2000 years ago.

And the Protestantism that spawned the Creationism we are talking about doesn't date back more than a few centuries.

But they came up with things like Abolitionism and the Civil Rights Movement, while your side was busy about the natural inferiority of blacks.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:44:20 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2008, 01:50:36 AM »
No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics;

You should have stopped right there.

Quote
Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

You are not making any sense at all.  Discovering drugs by accident doesn't support your assertion that evolution leads to the discovery of medicine.

Quote
But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria.

Evolution is a lame excuse.  More than anything else, these cases demonstrate the weakness of Inductive Reasoning in medical research.  Researchers should just admit that vaccines are only effective on certain specimens that they have studied in their laboratories; it's a fallacy to conclude that their vaccines are effective for all strains that exist on the ENTIRE earth.

Quote
And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

Genetics and Creation are not mutually exclusive.

Quote
And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification.

Creationists don't have problems with modification and common descent among kinds either.

Quote
Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

Quote
Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?

Not after you give me the correct answers.

Quote
If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it.

That's nice.  At least we agree on something.

Quote
Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

I don't like the way you argue.  In the first place, the search for aliens is not space exploration.  What you're trying to do here is associate evolution and alien-hunting with the entire space program and convince me that these have amounted to something.

Quote
And all this is in 50 years of the space program...

Please tell me how evolution and alien-hunting have contributed to the development of the rocket engine.

Quote
what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?

Isaac Newton.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,229
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2008, 02:01:16 AM »
Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

The concept exists as evident from the Penn State University citations website:

You may never need genetic algorithms in your line of software development and there are applications of genetic engineering to software engineering, notably high performance computing, robotics, biotechnology, nanotechnology, et al.:)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:05:42 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2008, 05:06:46 AM »
You may never need genetic algorithms in your line of software development and there are applications of genetic engineering to software engineering, notably high performance computing, robotics, biotechnology, nanotechnology, et al.:)

To say that GA is used in some applications is one thing, but to say that it is being used in any pattern recognition software is stretching it.   I also don't consider GA as a valid representation of evolution.  It's all hype.

Besides, a programming guru can CREATE wonders for an orginization in 6 days.

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2008, 01:26:25 PM »
You are not making any sense at all.  Discovering drugs by accident doesn't support your assertion that evolution leads to the discovery of medicine.

That wasn't the point, the point was to point out your questionable knowledge of pharmacology.

Quote
Evolution is a lame excuse.  More than anything else, these cases demonstrate the weakness of Inductive Reasoning in medical research.  Researchers should just admit that vaccines are only effective on certain specimens that they have studied in their laboratories; it's a fallacy to conclude that their vaccines are effective for all strains that exist on the ENTIRE earth.

They don't claim it's effective for ever variation, only the ones that share a degree of evolutionary closeness to the ones vaccinated against. Using the principles of evolution they can determine the best viruses to include in the vaccine.

Quote
Genetics and Creation are not mutually exclusive.

But the necessary assumption of common descent and creationism are.

Quote
Creationists don't have problems with modification and common descent among kinds either.

But nearly all work in bioinfomatics and genomics includes comparing genomes of different species...it provides far more useful information than remaining within a single species. In fact a current project at MIT is comparing as many as 30 different mammalian genomes, outlining not only our evolutionary past but also determining the function of various genes in all the mammalian species, with special consideration for homo sapiens.

Quote
Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

Sounds like you're doing the programming that will be replaced by more sophisticated computer programs in the next couple decades...I'm glad you already have 23 years in.


Quote
I don't like the way you argue.  In the first place, the search for aliens is not space exploration.  What you're trying to do here is associate evolution and alien-hunting with the entire space program and convince me that these have amounted to something.

I'm sorry you don't think I play fair...LOL. SETI and the Space Program are both driven by the same desire to discover the unknown, to discover new things purely for the advancement of science and human knowledge. But, for all its faults, at least SETI is a research project, it's asking questions and seeking to answer them...it's not simply dictating myths as dogma like creationism does. The creation museum is not doing viable research, they will not advance the frontiers of science, they will not add to the corpus of human knowledge.


Quote
Please tell me how evolution and alien-hunting have contributed to the development of the rocket engine.

You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.

Quote
Isaac Newton.

None of whose theories are dependent on the theory of creationism.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2008, 10:24:38 PM »
You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.
We interrupt this thread to bring you some useful information:

Edwin Hubble was from Marshfield, Missouri, just a few miles up the road from where I teach.

Okay, back to the pointless debate.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2008, 11:14:34 PM »
We interrupt this thread to bring you some useful information:

Edwin Hubble was from Marshfield, Missouri, just a few miles up the road from where I teach.

Okay, back to the pointless debate.

Which is most certainly a credit to your state...though I must also note that, though like my grandfather he was born in Missouri, he like my grandfather, died here in the great state of California. ;)
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2008, 11:37:01 PM »
They don't claim it's effective for ever variation, only the ones that share a degree of evolutionary closeness to the ones vaccinated against. Using the principles of evolution they can determine the best viruses to include in the vaccine.

You just have to acknowledge that inductive inferences in medical research has its limits.  Unless researchers are able to take into account ALL the variations in the make-up of a particular virus and discover ALL of its strains on the face of the earth (as opposed to using induction given a sample population of a known specimen), they cannot assume that evolution is the cause of vaccine failure over time.

Quote
But nearly all work in bioinfomatics and genomics includes comparing genomes of different species...it provides far more useful information than remaining within a single species.

That is not as simple as it sounds.  The methodology of classifying animals into species and subspecies is by itself problematic.

Quote
Sounds like you're doing the programming that will be replaced by more sophisticated computer programs in the next couple decades...I'm glad you already have 23 years in.

Sounds like you know nothing about programming and how it has evolved over time.  Thanks anyway. :)

Quote
I'm sorry you don't think I play fair...LOL. SETI and the Space Program are both driven by the same desire to discover the unknown, to discover new things purely for the advancement of science and human knowledge.

No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.

Quote
But, for all its faults, at least SETI is a research project, it's asking questions and seeking to answer them...it's not simply dictating myths as dogma like creationism does.  The creation museum is not doing viable research, they will not advance the frontiers of science, they will not add to the corpus of human knowledge.

I don't think it's fair to compare a project that has existed for more than 40 years with a privately-funded museum that has just been open for months.

By the way, have you by chance visited the museum already?  You sounded like you know everything about the place.

Quote
You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.

Cool.  That's a better way of saying that evolution has got nothing to do with rocket science.

Quote
None of whose theories are dependent on the theory of creationism.

Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2008, 06:03:11 AM »
No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Quote
Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Theognosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 248
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2008, 07:43:58 AM »
No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Which is irrelevant, of course.  What exactly is your point?

Quote
Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.

Newton dismisses evolutionary concepts in his writings.  He was way ahead of his time.  If you want me to quote him, I'll do it.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2008, 11:49:11 AM »
No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Which is irrelevant, of course.  What exactly is your point?
That your point is irrelevant.

Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.

Newton dismisses evolutionary concepts in his writings.  He was way ahead of his time.  If you want me to quote him, I'll do it.

Newton, who lived in the seventeenth century, dismisses a theory that did not exist until the nineteenth. Anachronism.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 11:50:48 AM by ytterbiumanalyst »
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,150
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2008, 04:43:21 PM »
Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.
We who believe in God MUST believe in Creation, but we don't have to believe in Creationism.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline username!

  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,081
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2008, 04:58:16 PM »
Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.
We who believe in God MUST believe in Creation, but we don't have to believe in Creationism.

Post of the month nominee!!!

Offline seabeau

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2008, 05:13:42 PM »
Pardon my inexperience in participating in on a discussion like this. Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?

 I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible. I would rather err in the direction of accepting the story literally or near literally than dismissing it out of hand.

If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?


Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,150
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2008, 05:16:48 PM »
I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible.
And I would dare to guess that your understanding of the teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is way out in left field. ;)  BTW, welcome to the forum. :)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline John of the North

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,533
  • Christ is Risen!
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2008, 05:19:14 PM »
Pardon my inexperience in participating in on a discussion like this. Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?

 I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible. I would rather err in the direction of accepting the story literally or near literally than dismissing it out of hand.

If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?



Well, its debateable, hence why we are all here. The explanation that I adhere to, is that the Church has no dogmatized position on evolution vs. creationsim because it is not considered essential to our salvation. Whether one is a theistic evolutionist or a young earth creationist, we are all sinners, Christ died on the Cross to repair our fallen humanity, and we are all called to bear our Cross and follow Him.

On the other hand, the miracles in the Gospel of John can be taken as literal because they are neccessary for Salvation, they light our way to Our Lord and Saviour.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 05:25:16 PM by Ukiemeister »
"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,150
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »
No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max.
I knew there had to be another reason why Rafael Palmeiro advertised Viagra so much. ;)  Too bad that wasn't the only performance enhancing drug he used. ::)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 05:21:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,761
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2008, 07:12:19 PM »
Quote
If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?

People are not trying to dismiss Genesis. Those who accept evolution are merely trying to discern what to take literally and what not to. Surely there are many things in Scripture that are not taken in a literal way; for a couple examples consider the parables of Christ and parts of the book of Revelation. The trick is discerning which parts to take literally and which parts to not take literally. And sometimes the literal and symbolic intertwine, making things that much more difficult. Consider Gen. 3:21:

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

At first this looks like something that can be taken literally. God "clothed" Adam and Eve with "coats of skin". Plain and simple, right? Yet, many Church Fathers also saw in this phrase "coats of skin" something entirely different, and understood the words symbolically (to mean various human things that effect us because of the fall, such as going to the bathroom). It could be literal, it could be symbolic, or it could be both. But if we start seeing something symbolic in the text, that doesn't mean that we are dismissing the text, or would dismiss other parts of the Scripture.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2008, 08:12:04 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Seabeau!

Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?
Yes. God created everything. That, as Forrest Gump said, is all we have to say about thayat.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 08:12:45 PM by ytterbiumanalyst »
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline GiC

  • Resident Atheist
  • Site Supporter
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,490
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2008, 08:45:58 PM »
No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max.
I knew there had to be another reason why Rafael Palmeiro advertised Viagra so much. ;)  Too bad that wasn't the only performance enhancing drug he used. ::)

Eh...the guy popped a little provigil and winny, nothing to get too excited over. Considering what it can do to joints, the winny probably did more harm than good.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline Justin Kissel

  • •|•|•
  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 31,761
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #130 on: October 21, 2008, 01:49:46 AM »
Nevermind this post... I accidentally reposted info that had already been posted  :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:58:22 AM by Asteriktos »
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #131 on: October 21, 2008, 11:21:49 AM »
Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? ;)

Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

Quote
Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. ;)

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault ;)), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. ;D

Quote
Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

Quote
I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
An Atheistic-Platonist. How interesting. Please exand.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline prodromas

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,239
  • Greek Orthodox
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #132 on: October 21, 2008, 09:59:43 PM »
Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? ;)

Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

Quote
Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. ;)

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault ;)), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. ;D

Quote
Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

Quote
I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
An Atheistic-Platonist. How interesting. Please exand.

Lol sorry Papist. For GiCs sake I will answer. He is not an Atheist but a Deist as he has stated many times :D.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,442
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »
I drag this thread out of retirement to announce that despite my previous belief that the Creation museum could not be any more ridiculous, they are now adding a "secular" portion to the park complete with zip lines, sky bridges and a dragon exhibit.  Apparently, I was wrong.  :P

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/05/creation-museum-zip-lines_n_3391857.html
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,448
  • Off to see the wizard!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Creation Museum Family Visit
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2013, 11:46:29 AM »
We can smell the desperation from the other side of the pond here... and we're planning another visit to the Natural History Museum in London for the summer. :)
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox