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Author Topic: Creation Museum Family Visit  (Read 19007 times) Average Rating: 0
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livefreeordie
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« on: February 04, 2008, 09:58:10 PM »

My family and I met up with my cousin's family at the new Creation Museum in Kentucky, 4 adults and 9 kids!  I must say it was a pleasant surprise. On a purely superficial level, the exhibits were as good as any museum and the quality of everything was really world class.  The content itself was awesome and I thought they did a good job of explaining both sides of the evolution debate.  They have multiple theaters showing movies, life size exhibits, an ark exhibit that shows how it was constructed, and many other things. It also was a Bible Museum as it had life like exhibits about all parts of the Bible.  They are even rumored to be building a life size Ark and Tower of Babel in the coming years.  It's definitely worth the visit, and for you home schoolers, a great place to take your kids for a field trip as they have lots of lectures and classroom lessons.  A word of warning, there is a lot of heavy evangelical protestant rhetoric, but not so much that it gets in the way of the presentation.  And the obvious warning, if have no belief in or even a little pity for a young earth view, I would stay away.  You'll probably lose it the moment you walk in and see the little girl at the entrance playing with her pet dinosaurs! Wink Regardless, I encourage you to visit, especially if you have kids.  There is even a really nice outside park for the kids to play.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 10:32:01 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 10:45:52 PM »

And the obvious warning, if have no belief in or even a little pity for a young earth view, I would stay away.  You'll probably lose it the moment you walk in and see the little girl at the entrance playing with her pet dinosaurs! Wink

If by "lose it" you mean burst into hysterics, I can see how that would be a danger. Grin
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 11:18:15 PM »

Not any more hysterical than the average person if they saw an exhibit of Jesus rising from the dead and exiting his tomb presented as fact.  But I must admit, a little weird seeing Molly and her pet dinos.  Makes one wonder, was the creator of the Flintstones a creationist? Huh Oh how we ponder the universe on Oc.net!

If by "lose it" you mean burst into hysterics, I can see how that would be a danger. Grin
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 11:20:16 PM »

If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 11:29:22 PM »

Since according to a recent Barna Group poll(see below), over 60% of Americans believe God created creation in 6 days, so I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of people around as they grow older to teach them the myths.  I assume you'll also take them to the "Christ rose from the dead tomb" to teach them that people believed in that myth too in the early 21st century.  Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in the actual 6 day creation thing, but it's no more crazy to a non-believer as Jesus as the Son of God.  As Christians, we are all fools to someone.

Man, this thread started out as a, "hey, took my kids to the museum" thread, and then the mud starts flying. Of course, sometimes its fun to throw a little mud! Shocked

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2007/10/taking_bible_st.html

If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 11:56:55 PM »

How's this for a number that will instantly invoke abject horror from many members of this board and immense appreciation from some other members.  And a little head scratching by the rest. The creation museum has only been open 9 months and it already has had 350,000 visitors.
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 01:01:23 AM »

Man, this thread started out as a, "hey, took my kids to the museum" thread, and then the mud starts flying. Of course, sometimes its fun to throw a little mud! Shocked

Well, you have to understand the context; we've been ridiculing these people and this 'museum' for the last few years here on OC.net. This was just another opportunity to roll our eyes in disbelief at these people. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 01:18:22 AM »

I know you are the last person to need pointers Wink, but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.

And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.

Well, you have to understand the context; we've been ridiculing these people and this 'museum' for the last few years here on OC.net. This was just another opportunity to roll our eyes in disbelief at these people. Wink
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 01:22:54 AM »

Since according to a recent Barna Group poll(see below), over 60% of Americans believe God created creation in 6 days, so I'm pretty sure there will be plenty of people around as they grow older to teach them the myths.

Thankfully such people tend to isolate themselves, and I only have to deal with such on rare occasions.

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I assume you'll also take them to the "Christ rose from the dead tomb" to teach them that people believed in that myth too in the early 21st century.  Honestly, I'm not sure I believe in the actual 6 day creation thing, but it's no more crazy to a non-believer as Jesus as the Son of God.  As Christians, we are all fools to someone.

The idea of monotheism, a creator or some sort of supernatural power a la deism isn't that far fetched.  But to equate theism with the idea that a creation myth taken to its literal meaning rather than spiritual meaning is absurd.   
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 01:38:17 AM »

I didn't give some general reference to monotheism, a creator, supernatural power or some other vague reference to some kind of deity or talk about theism.  I said, "Christ rose from the dead tomb" a specific event that to someone who doesn't believe in God is just as absurd as a 6-day creation.  I'm not saying if you believe "Christ rose from the dead" then you must believe in a 6-day creation or vice-versa.  Both beliefs are acts of faith.  I'm just saying it's nuts how evolutionists on the board bash and ridicule creationists when they themselves hold what are to the world absurd beliefs, namely, that Christ was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, etc.  What is going on inside of us that we can't be charitable to one another.

How exactly does 60% of the population isolate themselves from you? I'm not hiding from you! Wink



Thankfully such people tend to isolate themselves, and I only have to deal with such on rare occasions.

The idea of monotheism, a creator or some sort of supernatural power a la deism isn't that far fetched.  But to equate theism with the idea that a creation myth taken to its literal meaning rather than spiritual meaning is absurd.   
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 01:38:59 AM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 01:49:23 AM »

I didn't give some general reference to monotheism, a creator, supernatural power or some other vague reference to some kind of deity or talk about theism.  I said, "Christ rose from the dead tomb" a specific event that to someone who doesn't believe in God is just as absurd as a 6-day creation.  I'm not saying if you believe "Christ rose from the dead" then you must believe in a 6-day creation or vice-versa.  Both beliefs are acts of faith.  I'm just saying it's nuts how evolutionists on the board bash and ridicule creationists when they themselves hold what are to the world absurd beliefs, namely, that Christ was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, etc.  What is going on inside of us that we can't be charitable to one another.

A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.  It is altogether different than the modern anti-evolutionist movement that is mostly an American movement stemming from 19th-century fundamentalism noted for its general intolerance and anti-intellectualism.  This movement will probably find itself remembered in the same breathe as the persecutors of Galileo.

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How exactly does 60% of the population isolate themselves from you? I'm not hiding from you! Wink

I don't live in the South. 
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 01:56:23 AM »

You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! Shocked  You can't escape!

Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 


A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.  It is altogether different than the modern anti-evolutionist movement that is mostly an American movement stemming from 19th-century fundamentalism noted for its general intolerance and anti-intellectualism.  This movement will probably find itself remembered in the same breathe as the persecutors of Galileo.

I don't live in the South. 
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 02:09:32 AM »

I appreciate the effort to construct such a clever couple sentences! Wink  But if I walked into my philosophy class when I was at Vanderbilt and said, "I'm a Christian and I believe in God." I would get some polite smiles, some head nods, and a few slightly raised eyebrows.  But no one would be too alarmed because they would assume I was an enlightened Christian and I understood that my myths were just particularly liminal stories that flowed through the collective unconscious and found a good home in my belief system.

On the other hand, if I walked into the same class and said, "I believe Christ was 100% the son of God, he was born of a virgin, was dead and buried then rose from the dead, etc. and I believe this is all just as true as all of you sitting before me." Well, they would all be looking at me with looks of abject horror, disbelief and fear at what other crazy things my ignorance might cause me to do or believe.  The same looks and thoughts you give creationists. This is what I was talking about.  And my only point, we are all hear as Christians.  We are all hear on faith. Let's act that way towards each other.  Instead, it's like there is a pack of intellectual wolves just waiting to pounce on the ignorant masses masquerading as Orthodox Christians.

A singularity fits into the vague concept of something akin to deism.  Whether one wishes to consider that singularity to be the incarnation of Christ, the enlightenment of the Buddha or prophethood of Mohamed doesn't really matter.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2008, 02:12:18 AM »

I know you are the last person to need pointers Wink, but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.

Actually, it serves a far more powerful and subtle propaganda goal than that. Humans are, by their nature, social animals and tend to avoid activities that ostracizes them from their group. If you can cause society to ridicule (or convince society that everyone else is ridiculing) a given position, you can cause the great masses to join in and essentially undermine that position from a sociological point of view. Never underestimate the power of arguments that may be unsound or inviable in the context of an intellectual debate.

Quote
And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.

There are some positions that are deserving of nothing more than riducule such as Scientology, Creationism, Flat-Earth Theory, etc. Sure, you could throw up logical arguments against them, but the fact that people hold to such absurd ideas implies that they probably arn't even open to reasonable retorts.
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2008, 02:15:25 AM »

You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! Shocked  You can't escape!

Thank the gods we live in the west. Wink
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2008, 02:21:08 AM »

Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 

Personally, I'm more concerned that these people could believe such things in spite of all the scientific data to the contrary. To me, this says that they are lazy and have not bothered to put enough effort into the objective study of biology to form an intelligent understanding of the subject. As far as I know there is no data to disprove (though there is not data to prove, either) the incarnation or resurrection which are admittedly isolated and singular events that are intended to contradict the normal actions of nature (though that whole virgin birth idea isn't nearly as far-fetched as it once was). With creationism, or geocentricism, or the flat earth theory, on the other hand, there is overwhelming scientific evidence to actually disprove them; it's not merely an issue of a lack of evidence in either direction. To hold to a view that we objectively know to be incorrect is taking religion to a whole new level.
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2008, 02:25:24 AM »

Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? Wink

Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. Wink

Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Actually, it serves a far more powerful and subtle propaganda goal than that. Humans are, by their nature, social animals and tend to avoid activities that ostracizes them from their group. If you can cause society to ridicule (or convince society that everyone else is ridiculing) a given position, you can cause the great masses to join in and essentially undermine that position from a sociological point of view. Never underestimate the power of arguments that may be unsound or inviable in the context of an intellectual debate.

There are some positions that are deserving of nothing more than riducule such as Scientology, Creationism, Flat-Earth Theory, etc. Sure, you could throw up logical arguments against them, but the fact that people hold to such absurd ideas implies that they probably arn't even open to reasonable retorts.
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2008, 02:36:54 AM »

Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? Wink

Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

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Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. Wink

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault Wink), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. Grin

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Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

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I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2008, 02:38:24 AM »

Don't we do this every Sunday with communion.

"I believe this is truly thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious blood."

I bet if you took your Sunday cup to a lab the lab would say "looks like wine and bread to me."

We are dealing with faith my friend.  Logic only gets you so far.

To hold to a view that we objectively know to be incorrect is taking religion to a whole new level.
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 02:41:14 AM »

You don't live in the south!? Most of the license plates were from Ohio and Indiana! Shocked  You can't escape!

Whatever.  The Midwest is just as goofy as the South.  I'm very happy to live on the West Coast.   

Quote
Would the following be accurate to say? You act so hostile and alarmist towards people you perceive as creationists because you fear they are intolerant anti-intellectuals who will do their best to subjugate society before they breathe their last breath as a movement. 

Considering that there have been many attempts to include their religious views to the exclusion of scientific views in classrooms across the US, I'd say that'd be accurate. 

I appreciate the effort to construct such a clever couple sentences! Wink  But if I walked into my philosophy class when I was at Vanderbilt and said, "I'm a Christian and I believe in God." I would get some polite smiles, some head nods, and a few slightly raised eyebrows.  But no one would be too alarmed because they would assume I was an enlightened Christian and I understood that my myths were just particularly liminal stories that flowed through the collective unconscious and found a good home in my belief system.

On the other hand, if I walked into the same class and said, "I believe Christ was 100% the son of God, he was born of a virgin, was dead and buried then rose from the dead, etc. and I believe this is all just as true as all of you sitting before me." Well, they would all be looking at me with looks of abject horror, disbelief and fear at what other crazy things my ignorance might cause me to do or believe.  The same looks and thoughts you give creationists. This is what I was talking about.  And my only point, we are all hear as Christians.  We are all hear on faith. Let's act that way towards each other.  Instead, it's like there is a pack of intellectual wolves just waiting to pounce on the ignorant masses masquerading as Orthodox Christians.

The reason for that abject horror is the reputation that Christians have earned for themselves.  And based upon our track record we should be thought of with suspicion.  This evolution debate is a perfect example of it.  Why are so many Orthodox Christians abandoning our rich and beautiful patristic tradition to hop on the bandwagon of a movement that is newer than the icons in many of our churches? 
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2008, 02:42:36 AM »

Don't we do this every Sunday with communion.

"I believe this is truly thy most pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious blood."

I bet if you took your Sunday cup to a lab the lab would say "looks like wine and bread to me."

Every Sunday?!?!? Oh right... Wink

This is only a problem if you take the Latin doctrine of transubstantiation too seriously. If you take the approach that while the energies that manifest the bread and wine are unchanged and it is the essence that is altered through the consecration, you keep the whole issue in the realm of metaphysics and don't run into the rational problems.
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2008, 02:44:42 AM »

Propaganda is propaganda and ridicule is ridicule and you bring back fond memories of sand table strategy sessions in the Marines where half the guys had God as a co-pilot and the other half Jim Bean and pole dancers.  I smelled you out in about 2 posts! Wink

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault Wink), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. Grin
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2008, 02:48:58 AM »

Of course creationists would basically say the same thing, it's not about being rational in a human sense, if God said the earth is 6000 old it is and if it appears to be older you just aren't seeing it his way.

So really, you are closer to a creationist than you think!  You both throw out the rational when it gets in the way of your belief.

Every Sunday?!?!? Oh right... Wink

This is only a problem if you take the Latin doctrine of transubstantiation too seriously. If you take the approach that while the energies that manifest the bread and wine are unchanged and it is the essence that is altered through the consecration, you keep the whole issue in the realm of metaphysics and don't run into the rational problems.
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2008, 02:49:15 AM »

Propaganda is propaganda and ridicule is ridicule and you bring back fond memories of sand table strategy sessions in the Marines where half the guys had God as a co-pilot and the other half Jim Bean and pole dancers.  I smelled you out in about 2 posts! Wink

Eh, most people can figure it out that quickly...it's probably the whiskey on my breath. Grin
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 02:50:53 AM »

I don't know, you'd have to ask them.  I haven't stated what I believe and you haven't asked.  You've just seemed to jump to conclusions.  I just wanted to talk about my trip!!! Shocked

The reason for that abject horror is the reputation that Christians have earned for themselves.  And based upon our track record we should be thought of with suspicion.  This evolution debate is a perfect example of it.  Why are so many Orthodox Christians abandoning our rich and beautiful patristic tradition to hop on the bandwagon of a movement that is newer than the icons in many of our churches? 
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2008, 02:52:07 AM »

Of course creationists would basically say the same thing, it's not about being rational in a human sense, if God said the earth is 6000 old it is and if it appears to be older you just aren't seeing it his way.

Then we can only conclude that God is a devious trickster...not that that's a theoretical impossibility, it's just not the God I personally worship.

Quote
So really, you are closer to a creationist than you think!  You both throw out the rational when it gets in the way of your belief.

Nah, I just develop crafty philosophical arguments to get around the silly theology that I can...it's far easier than the approach I am compelled to take with the theology for which I cannot devise such arguments; then I must dismiss and ridicule it, which tends to upset a lot of people. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2008, 02:58:08 AM »

A trickster, or maybe we just aren't seeing it his way. Huh

Be careful your crafty arguments don't someday box yourself into a bad place.  A god of logic can easily become a god of ego and when that happens we can get very dark, very quick.

That's why I've always loved Jesus's teaching that we must come to him as Children.  While logic can help us on the way, ultimately we can only meet Christ as children. 


Then we can only conclude that God is a devious trickster...not that that's a theoretical impossibility, it's just not the God I personally worship.

Nah, I just develop crafty philosophical arguments to get around the silly theology that I can...it's far easier than the approach I am compelled to take with the theology for which I cannot devise such arguments; then I must dismiss and ridicule it, which tends to upset a lot of people. Wink
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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2008, 03:01:23 AM »

And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! Grin
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2008, 03:04:36 AM »

A trickster, or maybe we just aren't seeing it his way. Huh

Be careful your crafty arguments don't someday box yourself into a bad place.  A god of logic can easily become a god of ego and when that happens we can get very dark, very quick.

That's why I've always loved Jesus's teaching that we must come to him as Children.  While logic can help us on the way, ultimately we can only meet Christ as children. 

'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.'
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2008, 03:06:35 AM »

And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! Grin

The 'museum' is too over-the-top to have any real propaganda value; let people go, the only people it will convince are those who already accept creationism as dogma.
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2008, 03:38:36 AM »

If I ever have kids it will be important to take them there, otherwise they likely would not believe that people seriously believed in creation myths in the early 21st century. 

Sadly, Nektarios, the myth seems to be destined to be taught as fact for a little longer. I have family members who homeschool their children using the creation pseudo-science material as the mainstay of their science curriculum.
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2008, 04:00:06 AM »

And do you know what the beauty of this discussion is?  Anyone at all curious about the museum will be much more likely to go, if for no other reason than to see what all the hubbub is about.  And for that, I thank you all! Grin

People deserve a break - a trip to see something with such humourous potential might indeed be beneficial. Laughter is, afterall, good medicine. 
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2008, 11:05:17 AM »

I know you are the last person to need pointers Wink, but I'm constantly amazed that people don't see how ridiculing anybody just demeans there own position.  Especially on a Christian board where humility and charity is one sure sign of a Christian, not ridiculing.  It might win points as a tactic in a debate or to swell our egos, but I doubt it's good for much else.

And especially in light of the fact that ALL of us invite ridicule by calling ourselves Christians, you would think we could at least be charitable toward one another.  When you ridicule and bash a 6-day creationist, or someone else bashes an evolutionist and accuses them of being a heretic, the only thing/person who wins is the Evil One.

We are called to love our enemies, the least we can do is to show anybody who might stumble across this board that we can love one another.


To some extent, I agree. Yet, on the other hand, sometimes love should be tough.
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2008, 11:59:47 AM »

Everyone who believes in God is a creationist. All creationists are not 6 day creationists.

You have young earth creationists, old earth creationists, and Theistic evolutionists.



But they are all creationists.




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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2008, 12:08:02 PM »

Well said, JNORM888.
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2008, 12:51:17 PM »

Demetri, sorry, but I have to disagree. You have people who know biology and people who do not. Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2008, 12:55:52 PM »

Sorry Heorhij. I'm both an evolutionist and a creationist (albeit not 6 day), think intelligent design is suspect, and have no problem juxtaposing any of these beliefs with my faith.
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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2008, 02:30:33 PM »

Sorry Heorhij. I'm both an evolutionist and a creationist (albeit not 6 day), think intelligent design is suspect, and have no problem juxtaposing any of these beliefs with my faith.

But denying evolution is not a "belief," it's just wrong... Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2008, 02:44:03 PM »

I said Jesus, not Paul.  GIC, are you getting all bible quoting on me!   Shocked

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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2008, 02:54:28 PM »

Man, bringing up creation and watching heads spin is more fun than smashing pennies on a train track!  And that wasn't even my intention.  Something tells me I could write a 1000 word post on late byzantine iconography and if one sentence mentioned creationism feathers would fly and we'd rehash a conversation that's been had on this list a hundred times.  Cheesy

Of course, it's really sad.  I post about a trip my family takes and because creation is involved people start licking their chops. But within minutes of this post, I posted a story about a modern day miracle worker and my personal experience with a spiritual daughter of his.  And it gets one reply, from a moderator.

That alone speaks volumes.
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2008, 02:59:50 PM »

In my experience as a father, businessman, Marine Officer, inspirational speaker, and Orthodox Christian, tough love never has to be ridiculing.  Some people obviously think it should and use ridicule, but I have to question the motives and intentions of anyone who resorts to ridicule. And I have no problem with tough love.  I have a problem with people openly ridiculing others and talking about how they enjoy it.

To some extent, I agree. Yet, on the other hand, sometimes love should be tough.
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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2008, 03:04:02 PM »

But denying evolution is not a "belief," it's just wrong... Smiley

Why is denying "MACRO" evolution wrong? Most creationists believe in what is called "MICRO" evolution.

Some old earth creationists believe in macro-evolution and "all" theistic evolutionists believe in macro-evolution.


But I don't understand why a rejection of "macro" evolution = wrong.




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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2008, 03:09:16 PM »

Before someone jumps down your throat, you might want to search on GIC and Heorj's names and look at their history of posts. You'll find plenty to address this question and will probably save us all from the fur flying.


Why is denying "MACRO" evolution wrong? Most creationists believe in what is called "MICRO" evolution.

Some old earth creationists believe in macro-evolution and "all" theistic evolutionists believe in macro-evolution.


But I don't understand why a rejection of "macro" evolution = wrong.




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« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2008, 03:18:10 PM »

Oh and I might add, in general, Heorhij has some very thoughtful and clear posts on the evolutionist position.  Ignore him when he gets his temper worked up and just appreciate his honesty. It's well worth the time to search and read, even if you don't agree with him. I have no firm beliefs when it comes to this topic, but I learned some things from Heorhij.
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« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2008, 05:31:32 PM »

Why is denying "MACRO" evolution wrong? Most creationists believe in what is called "MICRO" evolution.

Some old earth creationists believe in macro-evolution and "all" theistic evolutionists believe in macro-evolution.


But I don't understand why a rejection of "macro" evolution = wrong.




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Because neither "mactoevolution" nor "microevolution" actually exist. They are terms used with didactic purposes (purely for teaching).
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« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2008, 07:07:38 PM »

Man, bringing up creation and watching heads spin is more fun than smashing pennies on a train track! 

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Something tells me I could write a 1000 word post on late byzantine iconography and if one sentence mentioned creationism feathers would fly and we'd rehash a conversation that's been had on this list a hundred times.  Cheesy

***
I post about a trip my family takes and because creation is involved people start licking their chops.

***
But within minutes of this post, I posted a story about a modern day miracle worker and my personal experience with a spiritual daughter of his.  And it gets one reply, from a moderator.

That alone speaks volumes.

What was that you said about ridicule not being Orthodox, nor loving and demeaning to the postion of the one doing the ridiculing?
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« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2008, 07:27:27 PM »

If this came across as ridicule I apologize.  But that interpretation of my post seems like a stretch, more like an attempt to say "gotcha!".

I'll restate my post.

"These discussions are fun to me.

I do believe that almost any time creation gets brought up a heated debate occurs that rehashes almost all previous threads.

I did post about a family trip and people did appear to be licking their proverbial chops.

I was just stating the obvious about the response to this post and my other."

Unfortunately, the nature of internet debates is that they can often end up being a game of Gotcha.

What was that you said about ridicule not being Orthodox, nor loving and demeaning to the postion of the one doing the ridiculing?

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« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2008, 07:42:43 PM »

If this came across as ridicule I apologize.  But that interpretation of my post seems like a stretch, more like an attempt to say "gotcha!".

Apology accepted; and there was no stretch involved. Your sarcasm is self-evident and amounts to the very ridicule that you claim to so disdain.

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« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2008, 08:16:09 PM »

Well, I suppose if someone has thin enough skin any sarcasm could be seen as ridicule.  I don't mind a tough argument, as I said, and I don't mind a little rib poking.  But when people start getting mean and unambiguously ridiculing, then I think the line has been crossed and all you have to do is a search on the creation vs. evolution debate to see the line has been crossed a lot.  Which is unfortunate, because most discussions on the board do a great job of being spirited, yet respectfull.  Which is fun! Wink  Of course, as I'm sure someone would point out, who am I to say where that line is drawn.  Which is why I'm sure this discussion will come up again, and again, and again.
 

Apology accepted; and there was no stretch involved. Your sarcasm is self-evident and amounts to the very ridicule that you claim to so disdain.


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« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2008, 08:33:36 PM »

Well, I suppose if someone has thin enough skin any sarcasm could be seen as ridicule. 

sar·casm (sär'kăz'əm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

Wow, you just can't help yourself, can you? Just for the record, your sarcasm doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, your hypocrisy is another thing altogether. 

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« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2008, 09:16:28 PM »

Hate to split hairs with you Riddikulus, but my "sarcasm" was intended to be humorous, not cutting, contemptuous or ridiculing.  If it wasn't humorous to you, I apologize.  And for that matter, if an element of sarcasm is stating the opposite of an intended meaning, I'm not even sure I was being sarcastic.  What I said is exactly what I meant.  No irony, just some colorful language. And I wasn't pointing out any single person, just commenting in general on how crazy the board gets when discussing creation.

FYI, My dictionary says Sarcasm is "the use of irony to mock or convey contempt."  And it defines irony as "the expression of one's meaning by language that usually defines the opposite."

If I'm guilty of anything it's the misuse of the word sarcasm.  Or just not being funny.

I should have said, "if someone has thin enough skin any humor can be seen as ridicule."

sar·casm (sär'kăz'əm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

Wow, you just can't help yourself, can you? Just for the record, your sarcasm doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, your hypocrisy is another thing altogether. 


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« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2008, 09:32:36 PM »

I said Jesus, not Paul.  GIC, are you getting all bible quoting on me!   Shocked

I've observed that religious folks tend to give that book a lot of weight, so I throw a quote out there from time to time to make them happy Grin
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« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2008, 09:35:30 PM »

Why is denying "MACRO" evolution wrong? Most creationists believe in what is called "MICRO" evolution.

Some old earth creationists believe in macro-evolution and "all" theistic evolutionists believe in macro-evolution.


But I don't understand why a rejection of "macro" evolution = wrong.

As much as I'd like to teach you Biology 101 on this thread, it's probably not practical; and George would be far better qualified to do so than I. If you have at least a basic grasp of biology, mathematics, and computer science I can refer you to some recent journal publications in the field of genomics from Nature that should help explain why a rejection of evolution is just plain wrong.
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« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2008, 09:39:22 PM »

Oh and I might add, in general, Heorhij has some very thoughtful and clear posts on the evolutionist position.  Ignore him when he gets his temper worked up and just appreciate his honesty. It's well worth the time to search and read, even if you don't agree with him. I have no firm beliefs when it comes to this topic, but I learned some things from Heorhij.

Nice, throw out an ad hominem even before somone makes their argument...it appears that I'm not the only person here who's been readin Goebbels.

I personally get frusterated when I have to put up with the nonsensical arguments creationists use to defend their position; I could only imagine how frusterated George must get, considering he's devoted a significant portion of his life to the study of biology and can plainly see how obvious the whole issue is.
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« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2008, 09:44:12 PM »

 Grin

I've observed that religious folks tend to give that book a lot of weight, so I throw a quote out there from time to time to make them happy Grin
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« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2008, 09:47:43 PM »

ad hominem?  I RECOMMENDED the guy read George as George is very genuine and very honest and very knowledgable on the subject.  More so than anyone I've seen comment on the board.  George himself in posts has said he has let his temper get the best of him, and since I told the guy to read George's past posts I put that in. Maybe I shouldn't have added any qualifiers.  Don't get alarmist on me.

Nice, throw out an ad hominem even before somone makes their argument...it appears that I'm not the only person here who's been readin Goebbels.

I personally get frusterated when I have to put up with the nonsensical arguments creationists use to defend their position; I could only imagine how frusterated George must get, considering he's devoted a significant portion of his life to the study of biology and can plainly see how obvious the whole issue is.
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« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2008, 09:55:42 PM »

ad hominem?  I RECOMMENDED the guy read George as George is very genuine and very honest and very knowledgable on the subject.  More so than anyone I've seen comment on the board.  George himself in posts has said he has let his temper get the best of him, and since I told the guy to read George's past posts I put that in. Maybe I shouldn't have added any qualifiers.  Don't get alarmist on me.

I'm not getting alarmist, I'm just point out that I'm not the only one who makes use of the principles of rhetoric and propaganda you claim to reject. Wink
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« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2008, 10:00:53 PM »

Where did I say I reject the principles of rhetoric and propaganda?  I only rejected a particular thing used in rhetoric and proganda, ridicule, and more specifically, when we use it on this board in addressing each other.  I enjoy a little ribbing and spirited debate as much as the next guy!  But we all, and I am including myself here, just need to be mindful of not crossing the line.  Especially when discussing the hot topics like creation vs. evolution.

I'm not getting alarmist, I'm just point out that I'm not the only one who makes use of the principles of rhetoric and propaganda you claim to reject. Wink
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« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2008, 10:12:28 PM »

Where did I say I reject the principles of rhetoric and propaganda?  I only rejected a particular thing used in rhetoric and proganda, ridicule, and more specifically, when we use it on this board in addressing each other.  I enjoy a little ribbing and spirited debate as much as the next guy!  But we all, and I am including myself here, just need to be mindful of not crossing the line.  Especially when discussing the hot topics like creation vs. evolution.

Except that the topic isn't any 'hotter' than heliocentricism vs. geocentricism...it really fits into the same category. Wink
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« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2008, 10:16:55 PM »

You need your own show.  You'd put Bill Maher to shame.  People would either love you or hate you and lots of them would watch! Wink

Except that the topic isn't any 'hotter' than heliocentricism vs. geocentricism...it really fits into the same category. Wink
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« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2008, 10:29:42 PM »

Except that the topic isn't any 'hotter' than heliocentricism vs. geocentricism...it really fits into the same category. Wink

It's still hot for some people GIC http://www.fes.be/index.html
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« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2008, 10:08:34 AM »

Hey, all, could we please bring this thread back from attacking each other?  Otherwise, I'm going to move it to the Religious section of the Free For All board.  Thanks.

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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2008, 12:21:26 AM »

Because neither "mactoevolution" nor "microevolution" actually exist. They are terms used with didactic purposes (purely for teaching).


True, but I don't see why everyone must believe in Macro evolution (in regards to animal life) when it's a speculation.

Small mutations over millions of years is something we can't directly observe. It is a kind of "faith" to think we will evolve into a new species 1 million years from now based on the micro evolution that happens today.

If anything micro-evolution in animal life would seem to support devolution. Or some type of degeneration. There are alot of factors involve that were never tought to me as a kid that would make evolution "relative"/"subjective".

What maybe a good "mutation" for one might be a bad "mutation" to someone else.


Lets say a mutation happened that will bloack the HIV virus from infacting someone. Well that mutation might be good for the A.I.D.S. virus but it might be bad for the common cold or something else that most people are either immune to or don't have a problem with.





But I will take the advice of another person on this board and not talk about this issue on this thread.




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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2008, 12:41:50 AM »

True, but I don't see why everyone must believe in Macro evolution (in regards to animal life) when it's a speculation.

(This must be punishment for the sins of my youth...<sigh>)

It's not speculation, it's hard science which is well supported by various experiments.

Quote
Small mutations over millions of years is something we can't directly observe. It is a kind of "faith" to think we will evolve into a new species 1 million years from now based on the micro evolution that happens today.

No faith is required, a comparative study of the genomes of various related species will even show you the exact alleles that changed, the significance of these alleles, and can even point us in the direction of the nature of each change. Welcome to the age of genomics...or do you think we're sequencing genomes because we lost a bet?

Quote
If anything micro-evolution in animal life would seem to support devolution. Or some type of degeneration. There are alot of factors involve that were never tought to me as a kid that would make evolution "relative"/"subjective".

What maybe a good "mutation" for one might be a bad "mutation" to someone else.

There's some truth to that, homo sapiens have a lot of genetic investment in intelligence and, as a result, other skills are lacking...put a human toe to toe with a lion, absent the technology we've been able to develop using our intelligence, and we're at quite a disadvantage.

Quote
Lets say a mutation happened that will bloack the HIV virus from infacting someone. Well that mutation might be good for the A.I.D.S. virus but it might be bad for the common cold or something else that most people are either immune to or don't have a problem with.

That's where natural selection comes in, if, in the wash, the mutation is beneficial those who have it will have an advantage (however slight) over those who do not and over a long enough time will come to dominate the population. If, however, the mutation is not beneficial (as is the case with most mutations) the population with that mutation will die out and it will not be continued. To paraphrase Dr. Eric Lander (Director of the Broad Institute at MIT), our genomes (and the genomes of every species) contain the research notes of hundreds of millions of years of 'research' by evolution and natural selection, but evolution, contrary to modern scientific practice, throws out the notes related to unsuccessful experiments.
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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2008, 01:58:21 AM »

Was reading through an evolution tutorial on the University of Berkeley web site.  And read the following,

"The only mutations that matter to large-scale evolution are those that can be passed on to offspring. These occur in reproductive cells like eggs and sperm and are called germ line mutations.

A single germ line mutation can have a range of effects:

No change occurs in phenotype
Some mutations don't have any noticeable effect on the phenotype of an organism. This can happen in many situations: perhaps the mutation occurs in a stretch of DNA with no function, or perhaps the mutation occurs in a protein-coding region, but ends up not affecting the amino acid sequence of the protein.

Small change occurs in phenotype
A single mutation caused this cat's ears to curl backwards slightly.

Big change occurs in phenotype
Some really important phenotypic changes, like DDT resistance in insects are sometimes caused by single mutations. A single mutation can also have strong negative effects for the organism. Mutations that cause the death of an organism are called lethals — and it doesn't get more negative than that.

There are some sorts of changes that a single mutation, or even a lot of mutations, could not cause. Neither mutations nor wishful thinking will make pigs have wings; only pop culture could have created Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles — mutations could not have done it."


Now here is where I get confused.  Why couldn't a pig develop wings and other body changes that might enable it fly?  That doesn't seem any less unlikely or absurd given enough time than the idea that a big bang evolved into a human being.  To a layman this seems to undermine the idea that evolution through random mutations could develop complex animals that do all sorts of things, fly, walk, run, etc. from what amounts to a pool of water.

This is where I go, sure I see the evolution explained above happening all over, but I sure don't get how we go from saying mutations can cause a beetle to change the color of its wings to saying a plant, beginning and continuing with random mutation, became a man. With that logic, the very same beetle might very well develop a brain, vocal chords and speech in a few billion years.  And then we wouldn't need Pixar! Wink  While that sounds silly.  Does it sound any more silly that a pool of water or plant developing into a human being? 

To quote Berkeley, "neither mutations nor wishful thinking will make pigs have wings".  Since science can't/won't acknowledge God, I might say, "wishful thinking looks at a mutation changing the color of a beetle's wing and extrapolates from that evidence that Man "evolved" from a soup of matter." That is of course simplifying the issue, but you get the point.

I bring up Beetle's by the way because that is a common example evolutionists bring up as evidence we can see of evolution, i.e. through mutations the color of a beetle's wings changed and gave the new beetle's an environmental advantage.

Not being a scientist, I sincerely would like an explanation of the above. thanks!
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2008, 02:30:01 AM »

I don't personally know enough about the pig genome vs. bird genomes, but I could take a guess at a few possible reasons why this wouldn't happen. It is possible that sections of the genome in birds that have the alleles necessary for wings would serve another purpose in a pig, thus making any such mutation lethal for the pig. We certainly know that a development like this would require a substantial change in the genome and that such a change could not happen instantly. I imagine that it's theoretically possible that if the pig is allowed to continue its course of evolution a variety of changes could occur over millions (probably hundreds of millions) of years that allowed some descendant of the pig to fly, but this would require such a change in genome that the new species and the modern pig would certainly be unable to naturally reproduce thus meaning that it's no longer a pig.

I think the main point being made, albeit somewhat poorly, is that genetic mutations do not cause species altering changes in one or two generations, this happens through millions of years of genetic drift.

Oh, and the laws of physics come into play as well -- not even evolution can get around those -- the aerodynamics of a flying pig don't work very well...if some future decendent of the pig were to fly changes beyond wings would be required (more aerodynamic shape (being too akward gives you a disadvantage when it comes to natural selection), MUCH less weight relative to body size, possibly hollow bones, feathers helpful though not absolutely necessary).

In the end I think it's important to note that it's the genome, not the phenotypes, that mutates and evolves. Though it's the effect of the genome on the phenotypes that determines whether or not the mutation survives.
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2008, 11:43:53 AM »

They said that "a lot" of mutations could not cause it either.  And while I agree that along with wings some other aerodynamic properties would need to be evolved, a pool of water or cloud of dust needs a lot more changes than this to become flesh and walk.  So neither is necessarilly more hard to imagine than the other.

The implication from the article was that "a lot" means "a lot" i.e. thousands or millions or whatever.

They also didn't qualify their instruction by talking about genomes vs. phenotypes, so whatever you mean by that you might want to bring up with Berkeley.  You and they are the scientists, not me. I'll keep reading though.

I don't personally know enough about the pig genome vs. bird genomes, but I could take a guess at a few possible reasons why this wouldn't happen. It is possible that sections of the genome in birds that have the alleles necessary for wings would serve another purpose in a pig, thus making any such mutation lethal for the pig. We certainly know that a development like this would require a substantial change in the genome and that such a change could not happen instantly. I imagine that it's theoretically possible that if the pig is allowed to continue its course of evolution a variety of changes could occur over millions (probably hundreds of millions) of years that allowed some descendant of the pig to fly, but this would require such a change in genome that the new species and the modern pig would certainly be unable to naturally reproduce thus meaning that it's no longer a pig.

I think the main point being made, albeit somewhat poorly, is that genetic mutations do not cause species altering changes in one or two generations, this happens through millions of years of genetic drift.

Oh, and the laws of physics come into play as well -- not even evolution can get around those -- the aerodynamics of a flying pig don't work very well...if some future decendent of the pig were to fly changes beyond wings would be required (more aerodynamic shape (being too akward gives you a disadvantage when it comes to natural selection), MUCH less weight relative to body size, possibly hollow bones, feathers helpful though not absolutely necessary).

In the end I think it's important to note that it's the genome, not the phenotypes, that mutates and evolves. Though it's the effect of the genome on the phenotypes that determines whether or not the mutation survives.
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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2008, 11:45:17 AM »

Hey moderators.  I'm new to the workings of this board.  How do I copy all this over to the new thread you created?  Or can you do it more easily on your end? thanks!
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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2008, 11:59:16 AM »

Well, it's not a new thread, just an old one we put a sticky on. But I can merge the two if you would like.
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« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2008, 02:28:23 PM »

I'll just make it a habit to post anything over there.  Thanks for consolidating everything.

Well, it's not a new thread, just an old one we put a sticky on. But I can merge the two if you would like.
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« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2008, 04:15:11 PM »

They said that "a lot" of mutations could not cause it either.  And while I agree that along with wings some other aerodynamic properties would need to be evolved, a pool of water or cloud of dust needs a lot more changes than this to become flesh and walk.  So neither is necessarilly more hard to imagine than the other.

The implication from the article was that "a lot" means "a lot" i.e. thousands or millions or whatever.

They also didn't qualify their instruction by talking about genomes vs. phenotypes, so whatever you mean by that you might want to bring up with Berkeley.  You and they are the scientists, not me. I'll keep reading though.

It's just a general introduction to evolution for the layman; don't take it as though it were an academic journal. The information is good, in general, but given enough mutations anything could theoretically fly (provided the laws of physics allowed), or any number of other things could do...but in this case I think the main point is that if this many mutations would take place it would be a different species.
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« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2008, 04:19:08 PM »

How's this for a number that will instantly invoke abject horror from many members of this board and immense appreciation from some other members.  And a little head scratching by the rest. The creation museum has only been open 9 months and it already has had 350,000 visitors.


I would like to have the hot dog concession out front!  laugh
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« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2008, 04:20:51 PM »

GIC, I'm heartbroken, I expected a better answer from you! Wink

But you are right, this a very superficial examination, although I'm sure they wrote it all to be correct.  I'll keep reading and bring up questions when appropriate.  Thanks.


It's just a general introduction to evolution for the layman; don't take it as though it were an academic journal. The information is good, in general, but given enough mutations anything could theoretically fly (provided the laws of physics allowed), or any number of other things could do...but in this case I think the main point is that if this many mutations would take place it would be a different species.
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« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2008, 04:22:29 PM »

You wouldn't make it past the security dogs and police.  They've had so many bomb and other threats and militant protestors they had to hire 24hr security.


I would like to have the hot dog concession out front!  laugh
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« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2008, 05:08:17 PM »

You wouldn't make it past the security dogs and police.  They've had so many bomb and other threats and militant protestors they had to hire 24hr security.


OK, I am not an evangelical and I am not much of creationist advocate. But I do believe in freedom of speech. Now I know some evangelicals can be downright annoying, but bomb threats and protests  Huh  I believe you but I thing that that is way wrong.
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« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2008, 09:44:38 PM »

I hate to be the guy that says this after a heated debate, but:

Neither view is a necessary tenet of Orthodoxy - therefore, let us not be divided amongst ourselves needlessly.  Let each believe as suits his faith; if someone needs 6-day creationism to be true that he might believe, tho it might not be, let him believe - it is better for him to believe in the fullness of truth than to depart it because of an insubstantial debate.

If one is able to believe both scientific and religious truth, let him do so - but let him not offend a brother and admonish him for his disbelief in the scientific truth as if he were admonishing a heretic, lest he drive him into heterodoxy, which would be a graver thing indeed than that which he tried to correct.
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« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2008, 12:07:03 AM »

To deny scientific truth is infinitely worse than heresy...we really don't need people like that in the Church.
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« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2008, 12:38:51 AM »

To deny scientific truth is infinitely worse than heresy...we really don't need people like that in the Church.

Of course, you belong to the Church of GIC, so you won't have to worry about kicking anybody out. Although I can only imagine the debates you might have with yourself in your diocese of one.

 Wink Wink

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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2008, 12:46:23 AM »

Of course, you belong to the Church of GIC, so you won't have to worry about kicking anybody out. Although I can only imagine the debates you might have with yourself in your diocese of one.

Wink Wink

Eh, I'm technically still Orthodox...but the fact that we don't generally drive these people from the Church in public humiliation is probably one of the better reasons why I generally don't bother with the formalities of the religion.
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2008, 06:31:51 AM »

GiC do you know any other Orthodox (or any other christians) who hold views similar to yours?
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« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2008, 10:18:33 AM »

GiC do you know any other Orthodox (or any other christians) who hold views similar to yours?

I've actually met quite a few, depending on what views you're refering to, especially being strongly pro-choice,  highly valuing scientific knowledge, supporting embryonic stem-cell research, having a dislike of piety and fundamentalism, etc...including influential members of some communities.
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« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2008, 10:51:03 AM »

I've actually met quite a few, depending on what views you're refering to, especially being strongly pro-choice,  highly valuing scientific knowledge, supporting embryonic stem-cell research, having a dislike of piety and fundamentalism, etc...including influential members of some communities.

Why do you class yourself as Orthodox? Are you "cradle" or convert?
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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2008, 05:15:23 PM »

Quote
To deny scientific truth is infinitely worse than heresy...we really don't need people like that in the Church.

I'd rather be wrong in this life than the next.
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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2008, 10:11:56 PM »

I'd rather be wrong in this life than the next.

Why would anyone deny the evidence of science for fear of "being wrong" in the next life? Is God the master trickster? Are we to live in fear that God places evidence in the physical world that will trick His creatures, creatures that he endowed with the intelligence to read such evidence and come to certain conclusions? Then, when they arrive at the Pearly Gates, he cries "Gotchya!" If God were such a fraudster, who would want to spend eternity with Him?

BTW, Welcome to the forum, NihilNominis!  Grin

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« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2008, 10:22:50 PM »

Why do you class yourself as Orthodox? Are you "cradle" or convert?

I'm a convert...but still, I think I continue to classify myself as Orthodox because I have some degree of cultural connection to the Greek Orthodox Church; if I can, I might even try to make it to liturgy for Pascha.
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« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2008, 10:26:12 PM »

If the administrators could change this thread with "Lets Ask Brother GIC" that would be great  Grin

What is your convert story? Were you Christian before or even a theist (or Deist)? Did you have a mentor that helped you with your unique set of beliefs?
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« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2008, 10:31:14 PM »

If the administrators could change this thread with "Lets Ask Brother GIC" that would be great  Grin

What is your convert story? Were you Christian before or even a theist (or Deist)? Did you have a mentor that helped you with your unique set of beliefs?

I'll PM you so we don't bring this thread too far off topic.
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« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2008, 11:37:00 PM »

Quote
Why would anyone deny the evidence of science for fear of "being wrong" in the next life? Is God the master trickster? Are we to live in fear that God places evidence in the physical world that will trick His creatures, creatures that he endowed with the intelligence to read such evidence and come to certain conclusions? Then, when they arrive at the Pearly Gates, he cries "Gotchya!" If God were such a fraudster, who would want to spend eternity with Him?

Ah, perhaps you misunderstood.  My comment was a reply to GIC's assertion that:

"To deny scientific truth is infinitely worse than heresy...we really don't need people like that in the Church."

In context, presuming both science and Orthodoxy are true, my comment was merely to say that heresy is infinitely worse than denying scientific truth, for it has eternal consequences.

Remember what St. Anthony of the Desert wrote about intelligence: it has nothing to do with the knowledge of this world, but rather the acquisition of holiness through right-mindedness.  (you can find it in the Philokalia, forget where)

Quote
BTW, Welcome to the forum, NihilNominis! 


Thank you.
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« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2008, 11:24:04 AM »

John taught that if you cannot love your neighbour, whom you can see, you cannot love God, whom you cannot see. Those who claim to love God and use this as an excuse to hate their neighbour do not truly love God.

By the same logic, if you can't believe in observable truths of the very world in which you live, how can you believe in that which you cannot see? Those who claim to believe in God and use this as an excuse to deny that which they can observe in the world cannot be said to truly believe.
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« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2008, 02:20:28 PM »

Quote
John taught that if you cannot love your neighbour, whom you can see, you cannot love God, whom you cannot see. Those who claim to love God and use this as an excuse to hate their neighbour do not truly love God.

This sounds reasonable, but only God knows the heart.

Quote
By the same logic, if you can't believe in observable truths of the very world in which you live, how can you believe in that which you cannot see? Those who claim to believe in God and use this as an excuse to deny that which they can observe in the world cannot be said to truly believe.

This sounds reasonable, but only God knows the spirit.

Please don't presume to judge the faith of others.  If it apparently exists, do not cast it down in favour of a lesser thing, for it is worth more than all  the riches of all the kings, powers and principalites throughout the world.
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« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2008, 04:21:32 PM »

Quote
By the same logic, if you can't believe in observable truths of the very world in which you live, how can you believe in that which you cannot see? Those who claim to believe in God and use this as an excuse to deny that which they can observe in the world cannot be said to truly believe.


"Superlative is their folly, for they prejudge divine things from human." Tertullian 207 A.D.

"If one expects to comprehend all things by the senses, he has fallen far from the truth." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.


"Men either undertake religion and pay no attention to wisdom, or else they devote themselves to wisdom alone and pay no attention to religion. However, the one cannot be true without the other." Lactiontius 310 A.D.


"The fountain of wisdom and religion is God. And if those two streams turn aside from Him, they will dry up. For those who are ignorant of Him cannot be wise or religious." Lactantius 310 A.D.





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« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2008, 10:21:11 PM »

Interesting quotations. Unfortunately, in their quest to look to God as the fountain of wisdom and religion, the creators of this museum prejudge human things from the divine. Expecting to comprehend all things by their own interpretation of Scripture, they have fallen far from the truth.
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« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2008, 12:06:47 AM »

There is error on both sides.  Truth is elusive; hence Christ calls his way "narrow".
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« Reply #93 on: April 07, 2008, 03:19:33 PM »

There is error on both sides.
There always will be as long as humans are on both sides. Smiley
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« Reply #94 on: April 07, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »

 laugh
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« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2008, 02:18:50 PM »

Here is a link that some might find interesting concerning the topic of the Creation Museum:

 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27119188

An interesting statistic: 
Quote
The museum in rural northern Kentucky, a 30-minute drive south of Cincinnati, has drawn more than 550,000 visitors in 15 1/2 months, by its own count.
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« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2008, 02:33:21 PM »

They raised $27 Million in private funding for said museum - The Prosperity Gospel works after all.   Grin
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« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2008, 12:44:20 PM »

Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.  If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory. 
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« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2008, 01:22:39 PM »

^ Post of the Month nominee!
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« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2008, 01:43:39 PM »

^ Post of the Month nominee!

For the social(ist) Gospel.
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« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2008, 11:38:28 PM »

I second the nomination for post of the month!
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« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2008, 01:03:08 AM »

Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.

Why help others in the first place?  Shouldn't it be survival of the fittest for the evolutionist? 

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

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If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory.

Their bible is not just Matthew 25.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2008, 01:28:47 AM »

Only here could 27million be wasted on some imaginary dreamed-up creation theory instead of feeding, clothing, and providing shelter and health-care to those in need.

Why help others in the first place?  Shouldn't it be survival of the fittest for the evolutionist? 

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

Quote
If they knew their bible they'd know all about Matthew 25, far more important than some mystic fairy tale that is creation theory.

Their bible is not just Matthew 25.  Roll Eyes


So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.  I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25. 
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« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2008, 01:39:06 AM »

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.

Those billions have pushed science to new levels, created new medicines, saved lives, and improved our standard of living...the advancement of science benefits all of humanity. Those 27 million dollars accomplished nothing more than the spreading of ignorance and superstition and the undermining of scientific advancement, the very thing that leads to the improvement of the human race.
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« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2008, 05:48:19 AM »

Those billions have pushed science to new levels, created new medicines, saved lives, and improved our standard of living...the advancement of science benefits all of humanity.

Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  Roll Eyes 

Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.
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« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2008, 06:06:36 AM »

So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.

I say it's a wise investment, and it's not even tax-payers' money.  By now, the museum should be generating income, and the proceeds can be used for charity. 

I will not be surprised if they are actually doing that today.

Quote
I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25.

And you should be aware that there are other lessons to learn from the rest of the Bible.  Think of the Parable of the Talents.
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« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2008, 08:18:27 AM »

Add that to the fact that 27 million is nothing compared to the BILLIONS of dollars spent on looking for missing links, aliens and black holes.
See? Shows how scientists really are smart after all.
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« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2008, 02:49:45 PM »

Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  Roll Eyes 

No, just physics, biology, and astronomy. Though I'm sure if abiogenesis came up, you'd take a cheap shot at Organic Chemistry as well. In the end, it is the task of science to challenge conventional thought and our presuppositions...to hold nothing as sacred and only allow that which survives its rigorous analysis. Accordingly, it is inevitable that it conflicts with religion.

Quote
Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max. It was during the clinical trials of this drug that it was discovered that it improves blood flow throughout the entire body, most notably around the genitals...thus a very notable side effect was the creating an erection in men and increasing lubrication in women, both of which can lead to increased libido (assuming, for both sexes, of course, that the problem is physical rather than psychological/neurological, which is more often the case with men, which is the reason for a higher success rate of these drugs amongst men).

Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

So why don't you pop some Sildenafil Citrate or Vardenafil or Tadalafil (though you might want to wait until next Friday for that one, it has something like an 18 hour half-life) and get some exercise and recreation today? Your heart will be healthier and you'll be happier tomorrow.

But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria. And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification. Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?

Quote
And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.

If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it. It has developed a few advancements in astronomy, radio technology, and, especially, radio astronomy...but probably not enough to justify the price tag (of course, compared with the Creation Museum which has and will contribute NOTHING to scientific or technolgical advancement, SETI is a bargain...it's all relative). But, of course, SETI has only cost millions, your claim is that this pursuit has cost billions...to consider that price tag one must look at the entire space program.

Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

Then there are the scientific advancements, too numerous to list...but I'll give a few highlights, the Hubble Space Telescope, at first attacked as a waste of tax dollars because of its flawed optics has since given us the best pictures of deep space ever seen by humans...but it's done more than that, the technology developed for the telescope lead directly to the development of Charge Coupled Device chips for digital imaging of breast biopsies...which has saved thousands of lives. Other technoogies include the MRI, Lazer Angioplasty, Ultrasound application to burn victims, auotmated urinalysis, programable pace maker, water purification without chlorine, enriched baby food, scratch resistant lenses, cubing of semi-conductor technology, and numerous advancements in aeronautics...just to name a few.

And all this is in 50 years of the space program...what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?
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« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2008, 09:16:34 PM »

^^While I agree in essense with the above post, I would like to point out that most early scientists were Christians; even those investigating evolution. I also believe that had it not been for fundamentalists, in various ages, ignoring scientific evidence and stubbornly clinging to literal interpretations of Genesis we would not have the chasm between science and religion that we have today. As a result, many people have made the choice for science alone, leaving the faith because they feel that they can no longer accomodate the medieval mindset of fundamentalism. This "either/or" situation is something that fundamentalist Christians should be deeply ashamed of. The point of Christianity is the salvation of mankind and fundamentalist Christians, in their pitiful and wilful ignorance of science, have put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way of far too many souls.
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« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2008, 09:50:11 PM »

So who is spending the millions on black holes and aliens, the same people that are spending the money on this so-called museum?  I was specifically referring to the money being spent on this particular museum.

I say it's a wise investment, and it's not even tax-payers' money.  By now, the museum should be generating income, and the proceeds can be used for charity. 

I will not be surprised if they are actually doing that today.

Quote
I am well aware that their bible has more content than Matthew 25.

And you should be aware that there are other lessons to learn from the rest of the Bible.  Think of the Parable of the Talents.




I agree,


These people are not stupid. I know alot of the people on this forum think they are, but that's far from the truth. There is a British and an American history to all of this that goes back to the 16 hundreds.....Maybe even before then.

Creationism is not a myth, and any "Christian" who thinks it is, is automatically assuming either an "Atheistic" worldview or a Monistic worldview in which matter is eternal.

If matter is not eternal

and if something """CAN'T""" come from nothing (all by itself)

Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.

Now there are many different forms of Creationism. They are not all the same.

The school of thought of that Museum is of the Y.E.C. (Young Earth creationism)

But there are other schools of thought as well. Like:

O.E.C. (Old Earth Creationism)

and

T.E. (Theistic Evolution)


And there maybe hybrids of the three different models. So everyone who believes in God is a Creationist. There is no getting around it.



Now some may hate the word "Creationism" because it has been demonized by the secular humanists/Atheists. But if you are not an Atheist, if you are not an Agnostic, if you are not a secular humanist, then why should that word be a problem?


Those who believe in God will """always""" have a different presupposition than those who either "hate God" (Maltheists) or "reject His existence" (Atheists).


We will always interprete the physical evidence differently. And I am comfortable in knowing that fact. It doesn't bother me at all.

We are different and we will always be different from those who base everything through the eyes of "Philosophical Naturalism"/Scientific Materialism".





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« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2008, 10:42:26 PM »

Rubbish.  I was not referring to science in general.  Please check my post.  Roll Eyes 

No, just physics, biology, and astronomy. Though I'm sure if abiogenesis came up, you'd take a cheap shot at Organic Chemistry as well. In the end, it is the task of science to challenge conventional thought and our presuppositions...to hold nothing as sacred and only allow that which survives its rigorous analysis. Accordingly, it is inevitable that it conflicts with religion

and other scientists.  Bohr remarked that his theories would become accepted when the holders of the others died out.

Quote
Anyway, please give one example of a medicine that was derived from missing links, aliens and black holes.  Could it be viagra?

Quote
No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max. It was during the clinical trials of this drug that it was discovered that it improves blood flow throughout the entire body, most notably around the genitals...thus a very notable side effect was the creating an erection in men and increasing lubrication in women, both of which can lead to increased libido (assuming, for both sexes, of course, that the problem is physical rather than psychological/neurological, which is more often the case with men, which is the reason for a higher success rate of these drugs amongst men).

Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

So why don't you pop some Sildenafil Citrate or Vardenafil or Tadalafil (though you might want to wait until next Friday for that one, it has something like an 18 hour half-life) and get some exercise and recreation today? Your heart will be healthier and you'll be happier tomorrow.

But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria. And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification. Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?
[/quote]

I'd bring up bioethics, but....

Quote
And while you're at it, kindly give concrete examples of how the search for extra-terrestrial life has saved lives and improved our standard of living.

Quote
If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it. It has developed a few advancements in astronomy, radio technology, and, especially, radio astronomy...but probably not enough to justify the price tag (of course, compared with the Creation Museum which has and will contribute NOTHING to scientific or technolgical advancement, SETI is a bargain...it's all relative). But, of course, SETI has only cost millions, your claim is that this pursuit has cost billions...to consider that price tag one must look at the entire space program.

Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

Then there are the scientific advancements, too numerous to list...but I'll give a few highlights, the Hubble Space Telescope, at first attacked as a waste of tax dollars because of its flawed optics has since given us the best pictures of deep space ever seen by humans...but it's done more than that, the technology developed for the telescope lead directly to the development of Charge Coupled Device chips for digital imaging of breast biopsies...which has saved thousands of lives. Other technoogies include the MRI, Lazer Angioplasty, Ultrasound application to burn victims, auotmated urinalysis, programable pace maker, water purification without chlorine, enriched baby food, scratch resistant lenses, cubing of semi-conductor technology, and numerous advancements in aeronautics...just to name a few.

And all this is in 50 years of the space program...what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?
4000+ years?  I thought you thought we made it up just over 2000 years ago.

And the Protestantism that spawned the Creationism we are talking about doesn't date back more than a few centuries.

But they came up with things like Abolitionism and the Civil Rights Movement, while your side was busy about the natural inferiority of blacks.
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« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2008, 01:50:36 AM »

No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics;

You should have stopped right there.

Quote
Is it really that bad that while researching methods to treat CAD and save lives, science accidently discovered a drug that can improve our quality of life?

You are not making any sense at all.  Discovering drugs by accident doesn't support your assertion that evolution leads to the discovery of medicine.

Quote
But as for medical advancements that have come out of the study of evolution, the most notable is the annual Influenza vaccine which is designed around the predicted evolution of the pathogens. If evolution were not understood the the degree it is today the vaccines would be much less effective, if effective at all, especially against rapidly evolving viruses. Of course, any treatment of HIV is dependent on an understanding of the evolution of the virus, ignoring this could lead to a drug that does more harm than good. New drugs to treat antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria are dependent on the studying of the evolution of bacteria.

Evolution is a lame excuse.  More than anything else, these cases demonstrate the weakness of Inductive Reasoning in medical research.  Researchers should just admit that vaccines are only effective on certain specimens that they have studied in their laboratories; it's a fallacy to conclude that their vaccines are effective for all strains that exist on the ENTIRE earth.

Quote
And a knowledge of genetics and evolution is indispensable in the treatment of genetic disease. One notable example is the identification of the allele that causes Huntington's...using the presupposition of common ancestry and comparing various genomes computationally.

Genetics and Creation are not mutually exclusive.

Quote
And, of course, the entire field of bioinfomatics and genomics is based on the assumption of common descent with modification.

Creationists don't have problems with modification and common descent among kinds either.

Quote
Not to mention the impact that genetic algorithms, derived from our studies of natural selection, have had on our world, being the basis of any pattern recognition software or even nominally sophisticated artificial intelligence.

Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

Quote
Now it's your turn...give me one pracical example of how anti-evolutionary theory has advanced science or medicine and improved our standard of living or quality of life?

Not after you give me the correct answers.

Quote
If you're narrowly refering to SETI, I would have to agree...it's probably not worth it.

That's nice.  At least we agree on something.

Quote
Now the cultural and purely scientific accomplishments of this program are undeniable, they helped were essential in establishing the United States as a superpower and leader of the free world, they put us at the forefront of science attracting talented researchers from around the world to come to our universities and laboratories, driving R&D and Economic Growth. It has been estimated that every dollar spent on the space program has resulted in a return of 7 dollars in the form personal and corporate income tax revenues...creating jobs and economic growth in the process.

I don't like the way you argue.  In the first place, the search for aliens is not space exploration.  What you're trying to do here is associate evolution and alien-hunting with the entire space program and convince me that these have amounted to something.

Quote
And all this is in 50 years of the space program...

Please tell me how evolution and alien-hunting have contributed to the development of the rocket engine.

Quote
what has creationism produced, what has it done to improve our quality life or save our lives in the 4000+ years it has been around?

Isaac Newton.
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« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2008, 02:01:16 AM »

Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

The concept exists as evident from the Penn State University citations website:

You may never need genetic algorithms in your line of software development and there are applications of genetic engineering to software engineering, notably high performance computing, robotics, biotechnology, nanotechnology, et al.Smiley
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« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2008, 05:06:46 AM »

You may never need genetic algorithms in your line of software development and there are applications of genetic engineering to software engineering, notably high performance computing, robotics, biotechnology, nanotechnology, et al.Smiley

To say that GA is used in some applications is one thing, but to say that it is being used in any pattern recognition software is stretching it.   I also don't consider GA as a valid representation of evolution.  It's all hype.

Besides, a programming guru can CREATE wonders for an orginization in 6 days.
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« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2008, 01:26:25 PM »

You are not making any sense at all.  Discovering drugs by accident doesn't support your assertion that evolution leads to the discovery of medicine.

That wasn't the point, the point was to point out your questionable knowledge of pharmacology.

Quote
Evolution is a lame excuse.  More than anything else, these cases demonstrate the weakness of Inductive Reasoning in medical research.  Researchers should just admit that vaccines are only effective on certain specimens that they have studied in their laboratories; it's a fallacy to conclude that their vaccines are effective for all strains that exist on the ENTIRE earth.

They don't claim it's effective for ever variation, only the ones that share a degree of evolutionary closeness to the ones vaccinated against. Using the principles of evolution they can determine the best viruses to include in the vaccine.

Quote
Genetics and Creation are not mutually exclusive.

But the necessary assumption of common descent and creationism are.

Quote
Creationists don't have problems with modification and common descent among kinds either.

But nearly all work in bioinfomatics and genomics includes comparing genomes of different species...it provides far more useful information than remaining within a single species. In fact a current project at MIT is comparing as many as 30 different mammalian genomes, outlining not only our evolutionary past but also determining the function of various genes in all the mammalian species, with special consideration for homo sapiens.

Quote
Who gave you the idea that software developers use genetic algorithms in their code?  I've been programming for 23 years and I don't know what you're talking about.

Sounds like you're doing the programming that will be replaced by more sophisticated computer programs in the next couple decades...I'm glad you already have 23 years in.


Quote
I don't like the way you argue.  In the first place, the search for aliens is not space exploration.  What you're trying to do here is associate evolution and alien-hunting with the entire space program and convince me that these have amounted to something.

I'm sorry you don't think I play fair...LOL. SETI and the Space Program are both driven by the same desire to discover the unknown, to discover new things purely for the advancement of science and human knowledge. But, for all its faults, at least SETI is a research project, it's asking questions and seeking to answer them...it's not simply dictating myths as dogma like creationism does. The creation museum is not doing viable research, they will not advance the frontiers of science, they will not add to the corpus of human knowledge.


Quote
Please tell me how evolution and alien-hunting have contributed to the development of the rocket engine.

You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.

Quote
Isaac Newton.

None of whose theories are dependent on the theory of creationism.
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« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2008, 10:24:38 PM »

You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.
We interrupt this thread to bring you some useful information:

Edwin Hubble was from Marshfield, Missouri, just a few miles up the road from where I teach.

Okay, back to the pointless debate.
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« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2008, 11:14:34 PM »

We interrupt this thread to bring you some useful information:

Edwin Hubble was from Marshfield, Missouri, just a few miles up the road from where I teach.

Okay, back to the pointless debate.

Which is most certainly a credit to your state...though I must also note that, though like my grandfather he was born in Missouri, he like my grandfather, died here in the great state of California. Wink
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« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2008, 11:37:01 PM »

They don't claim it's effective for ever variation, only the ones that share a degree of evolutionary closeness to the ones vaccinated against. Using the principles of evolution they can determine the best viruses to include in the vaccine.

You just have to acknowledge that inductive inferences in medical research has its limits.  Unless researchers are able to take into account ALL the variations in the make-up of a particular virus and discover ALL of its strains on the face of the earth (as opposed to using induction given a sample population of a known specimen), they cannot assume that evolution is the cause of vaccine failure over time.

Quote
But nearly all work in bioinfomatics and genomics includes comparing genomes of different species...it provides far more useful information than remaining within a single species.

That is not as simple as it sounds.  The methodology of classifying animals into species and subspecies is by itself problematic.

Quote
Sounds like you're doing the programming that will be replaced by more sophisticated computer programs in the next couple decades...I'm glad you already have 23 years in.

Sounds like you know nothing about programming and how it has evolved over time.  Thanks anyway. Smiley

Quote
I'm sorry you don't think I play fair...LOL. SETI and the Space Program are both driven by the same desire to discover the unknown, to discover new things purely for the advancement of science and human knowledge.

No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.

Quote
But, for all its faults, at least SETI is a research project, it's asking questions and seeking to answer them...it's not simply dictating myths as dogma like creationism does.  The creation museum is not doing viable research, they will not advance the frontiers of science, they will not add to the corpus of human knowledge.

I don't think it's fair to compare a project that has existed for more than 40 years with a privately-funded museum that has just been open for months.

By the way, have you by chance visited the museum already?  You sounded like you know everything about the place.

Quote
You also mentioned black holes, one of the main reasons Hubble was deployed was to gather more information on black hole candidates.

Cool.  That's a better way of saying that evolution has got nothing to do with rocket science.

Quote
None of whose theories are dependent on the theory of creationism.

Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
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« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2008, 06:03:11 AM »

No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Quote
Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.
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« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2008, 07:43:58 AM »

No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Which is irrelevant, of course.  What exactly is your point?

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Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.

Newton dismisses evolutionary concepts in his writings.  He was way ahead of his time.  If you want me to quote him, I'll do it.
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« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2008, 11:49:11 AM »

No. Unlike the Space Program, SETI is driven by fantasy.
So said the detractors of those who wanted to split the atom.

Which is irrelevant, of course.  What exactly is your point?
That your point is irrelevant.

Newton himself was a product of Creationist thought.
One word: Anachronism.

Newton dismisses evolutionary concepts in his writings.  He was way ahead of his time.  If you want me to quote him, I'll do it.

Newton, who lived in the seventeenth century, dismisses a theory that did not exist until the nineteenth. Anachronism.
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« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2008, 04:43:21 PM »

Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.
We who believe in God MUST believe in Creation, but we don't have to believe in Creationism.
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« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2008, 04:58:16 PM »

Then Everyone who believes in God """must""" automatically believe in Creationism.
We who believe in God MUST believe in Creation, but we don't have to believe in Creationism.

Post of the month nominee!!!
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« Reply #123 on: October 14, 2008, 05:13:42 PM »

Pardon my inexperience in participating in on a discussion like this. Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?

 I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible. I would rather err in the direction of accepting the story literally or near literally than dismissing it out of hand.

If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?

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« Reply #124 on: October 14, 2008, 05:16:48 PM »

I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible.
And I would dare to guess that your understanding of the teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is way out in left field. Wink  BTW, welcome to the forum. Smiley
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« Reply #125 on: October 14, 2008, 05:19:14 PM »

Pardon my inexperience in participating in on a discussion like this. Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?

 I am not a scholar, or a theologian but I would dare to guess the “young” earth creationists are closer to the teaching of the Orthodox Church than any individual that denies the basic concepts that are given to us by God in the Bible. I would rather err in the direction of accepting the story literally or near literally than dismissing it out of hand.

If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?



Well, its debateable, hence why we are all here. The explanation that I adhere to, is that the Church has no dogmatized position on evolution vs. creationsim because it is not considered essential to our salvation. Whether one is a theistic evolutionist or a young earth creationist, we are all sinners, Christ died on the Cross to repair our fallen humanity, and we are all called to bear our Cross and follow Him.

On the other hand, the miracles in the Gospel of John can be taken as literal because they are neccessary for Salvation, they light our way to Our Lord and Saviour.
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« Reply #126 on: October 14, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »

No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max.
I knew there had to be another reason why Rafael Palmeiro advertised Viagra so much. Wink  Too bad that wasn't the only performance enhancing drug he used. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2008, 07:12:19 PM »

Quote
If you dismiss Genesis, then why not dismiss the miracles in the book of John?

People are not trying to dismiss Genesis. Those who accept evolution are merely trying to discern what to take literally and what not to. Surely there are many things in Scripture that are not taken in a literal way; for a couple examples consider the parables of Christ and parts of the book of Revelation. The trick is discerning which parts to take literally and which parts to not take literally. And sometimes the literal and symbolic intertwine, making things that much more difficult. Consider Gen. 3:21:

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

At first this looks like something that can be taken literally. God "clothed" Adam and Eve with "coats of skin". Plain and simple, right? Yet, many Church Fathers also saw in this phrase "coats of skin" something entirely different, and understood the words symbolically (to mean various human things that effect us because of the fall, such as going to the bathroom). It could be literal, it could be symbolic, or it could be both. But if we start seeing something symbolic in the text, that doesn't mean that we are dismissing the text, or would dismiss other parts of the Scripture.
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« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2008, 08:12:04 PM »

Welcome to the forum, Seabeau!

Is there an official Orthodox interpretation of the creation story in the Bible?
Yes. God created everything. That, as Forrest Gump said, is all we have to say about thayat.

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« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2008, 08:45:58 PM »

No, not Viagra, that drug it owes its development more to molecular biology than to evolution and genetics; however, it is telling that you would try to so belittle that particular advancement of medicine. They didn't actually start out researching a treatment for Erictile Disfunction (not that there would have been anything wrong with them having done so), they were actually adapting a drug that treats hypertension to treat Coronary Artery Disease and Angina. Which Sildenafil Citrate (Viagra) actually does quite well...well enough that today it's actually used as a performance enhancing drug in certain endurace sports as it expands the arterial walls, notably improving blood flow, and thus increasing VO2 Max.
I knew there had to be another reason why Rafael Palmeiro advertised Viagra so much. Wink  Too bad that wasn't the only performance enhancing drug he used. Roll Eyes

Eh...the guy popped a little provigil and winny, nothing to get too excited over. Considering what it can do to joints, the winny probably did more harm than good.
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« Reply #130 on: October 21, 2008, 01:49:46 AM »

Nevermind this post... I accidentally reposted info that had already been posted  Smiley
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« Reply #131 on: October 21, 2008, 11:21:49 AM »

Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? Wink

Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

Quote
Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. Wink

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault Wink), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. Grin

Quote
Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

Quote
I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
An Atheistic-Platonist. How interesting. Please exand.
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« Reply #132 on: October 21, 2008, 09:59:43 PM »

Did you learn this from a Holy Father, one of the saints, or maybe Joseph Goebbels? Wink

Originally from Herr Goebbels, of course; though you can, to an extent, find it in Cicero as well. I have read many diverse sources in the arts of rhetoric and propaganda.

Quote
Propaganda and ridicule put Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals in the gas chamber, Christians in the lions den and African Americans in slavery. GIC, I would think you could have come up with a technique a little more subtle and original! Of course, it is a proven technique. Wink

So, at least you understand that it works and can see where I'm coming from...and the only reason that it's obvious is because I admited as much (this honesty is my great fault Wink), had I not done so you would never have expected that my source was Joseph Goebbels himself...I could have easily been dismissed as just another anti-religious arrogant intellectual who hasn't thought his arguments through. Grin

Quote
Personally, I like Christ's example better.  You endure ridicule and propaganda, then you change the world.

Good luck with that one. I'm thinking that divinity may be a prerequisite to that approach.

Quote
I'm intrigued. Looking back through your posts, it seems your "GOD" is logic.  Is that accurate at all?

Kinda, I have made no secret of my neo-platonic leanings, the One is the source and essence of all things which naturally begets the Logos, which is in large part the Reason and Logic behind these things which eminate forth from the One.
An Atheistic-Platonist. How interesting. Please exand.

Lol sorry Papist. For GiCs sake I will answer. He is not an Atheist but a Deist as he has stated many times Cheesy.
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« Reply #133 on: June 06, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »

I drag this thread out of retirement to announce that despite my previous belief that the Creation museum could not be any more ridiculous, they are now adding a "secular" portion to the park complete with zip lines, sky bridges and a dragon exhibit.  Apparently, I was wrong.  Tongue

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/05/creation-museum-zip-lines_n_3391857.html
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« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2013, 11:46:29 AM »

We can smell the desperation from the other side of the pond here... and we're planning another visit to the Natural History Museum in London for the summer. Smiley
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« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2013, 12:38:32 PM »

I love reading the comments from the spouters of "tolerance". Seriously. Those that left comments REALLY hate those not like themselves.

PP
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« Reply #136 on: June 07, 2013, 01:26:07 AM »

Having Young Earth Creationist parents really is a drag. For starters, you can't watch Science Channel or any of the BBC nature documentaries in front of them because evolution and "millions of years" is always mentioned.
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« Reply #137 on: June 08, 2013, 12:33:47 PM »

Having Young Earth Creationist parents really is a drag. For starters, you can't watch Science Channel or any of the BBC nature documentaries in front of them because evolution and "millions of years" is always mentioned.

It could be worse, they could belong to the Flat Earth Society as well.
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« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2013, 02:43:29 PM »

I love reading the comments from the spouters of "tolerance". Seriously. Those that left comments REALLY hate those not like themselves.

PP

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2013, 10:53:53 AM »

I love reading the comments from the spouters of "tolerance". Seriously. Those that left comments REALLY hate those not like themselves.

PP

 Roll Eyes
What? It'd be one thing bashing the idea of the creationist museum beliefs, but those people were getting personal.

PP
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« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2013, 10:54:56 AM »

I love reading the comments from the spouters of "tolerance". Seriously. Those that left comments REALLY hate those not like themselves.

PP

 Roll Eyes
What? It'd be one thing bashing the idea of the creationist museum beliefs, but those people were getting personal.

PP

Which people are you referencing?
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« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2013, 10:55:38 AM »

I love reading the comments from the spouters of "tolerance". Seriously. Those that left comments REALLY hate those not like themselves.

PP

 Roll Eyes
What? It'd be one thing bashing the idea of the creationist museum beliefs, but those people were getting personal.

PP

Which people are you referencing?
The commentors at the bottom of the article.

PP
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