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ignatius
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« on: January 31, 2008, 06:29:05 PM »

How much does 'music' play in your spiritual life?

I listen to classic reggae and I find it's ties the Orthodoxy pretty neat.

Rastafarians, Early Bob Marley, Burning Spear all come across very spiritual for me.

Does anyone also have this ties. Does anyone have any other reggae groups which keep the Orthodox ties in their music?
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2008, 06:49:52 PM »

*sigh*
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2008, 07:26:38 PM »

 Smiley
I listen to reggae, not for any spiritual reason, but because it helps me keep calm and within the speed limits when driving.  Grin

My wife listens to death-metal and whatever it is called nowdays. I WILL be braking the law if I leave her CD playing. Grin

Although the conversion of Bob Marley to the Oriental Orthodox faith at the end of his life is inspiring, I don't think that his songs are that helpful, spiritually, for Orthodox Christians. Neither would I think they are in any way harmful unless the listener replaces the teachings of the Church with songtexts of artists.
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2008, 07:37:51 PM »

How much does 'music' play in your spiritual life?

I listen to classic reggae and I find it's ties the Orthodoxy pretty neat.

Rastafarians, Early Bob Marley, Burning Spear all come across very spiritual for me.

Does anyone also have this ties. Does anyone have any other reggae groups which keep the Orthodox ties in their music?

ignatius,

I have always tended to think of most music as emotionally charging rather than spiritual; some is uplifting and energising (especially during a workout!), some affects me in such a way that it quickly reduces me to tears. Reggae I find relaxing and contemplative, so I believe that I can agree with you that it is spiritual in a sense.

Just for clarification, perhaps you would like to explain more fully why you find it to be spiritual, and what you mean by "keep the Orthodox ties in their music".
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2008, 08:31:42 PM »

Jah, mon!

 Reggae riddims help me keep a cool head, mon!  When I and I listen to dem sweet riddims, every'ting gwon be irie! Cheesy
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2008, 08:46:27 PM »

I would tread very carefully around reggae.
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2008, 08:58:44 PM »

^^Relax, brother.  I very rarely listen to Reggae (though I do like it and it does help calm me down).
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2008, 09:02:51 PM »

*sigh*
I would tread very carefully around reggae.
I believe you have more to say on this topic Ukiemeister. I for one would like to hear you elaborate.

I know I am repeating myself but it can be said again:
I think that any kind of music can be dangerous if the listener allows the ideas of the artist replace the teaching of the Church.
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2008, 09:05:29 PM »

I would tread very carefully around reggae.

As opposed to...say...Jazz?
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 09:07:57 PM »

I believe you have more to say on this topic Ukiemeister. I for one would like to hear you elaborate.

I know I am repeating myself but it can be said again:
I think that any kind of music can be dangerous if the listener allows the ideas of the artist replace the teaching of the Church.

A bit confused with this. Wouldn't that be the lyrics that are dangerous, rather than the music? Or does music convey ideas in some way?
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 09:14:47 PM »

Music does convey ideas, even without lyrics. Case in point: Sergei Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf.
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2008, 09:19:06 PM »

As opposed to...say...Jazz?

Absolutely, without question.
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 09:26:40 PM »

Wouldn't that be the lyrics that are dangerous, rather than the music?

 Grin Well, yes, that is what I meant. To prove my intention I will now quote myself  angel

I think that any kind of music can be dangerous if the listener allows the ideas of the artist replace the teaching of the Church.
(Emphasis added)

Are you misunderstanding me on purpose?  police

But on the other hand I could argue that any aggressive or high tempo music can be dangerous when driving   Roll Eyes Grin
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 09:57:13 PM »

Grin Well, yes, that is what I meant. To prove my intention I will now quote myself  angel
 (Emphasis added)

Are you misunderstanding me on purpose?  police

No, not at all. I have heard/seen people claim - as has ytterbiumanalyst above - that music alone conveys ideas. Hence my question.

Quote
But on the other hand I could argue that any aggressive or high tempo music can be dangerous when driving   Roll Eyes Grin

Yes, I agree. Probably because of the way it affects one - ie becoming energetically charged. On the other side of the coin, one wouldn't want to be playing somnific music whilst driving; especially when already tired.
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 09:58:36 PM »

Music does convey ideas, even without lyrics. Case in point: Sergei Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf.

And just how does music convey ideas?
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 09:59:33 PM »

Absolutely, without question.

Would you mind elaborating as to why Reggae would be more dangerous than Jazz?
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 10:04:19 PM »

Sure, the most dangerous thing in Jazz music might be at most a veiled sexual reference at most. Somehow that pales in comparison to a genre of music founded on the principles of a spiritual movement that subjugates women, supports Gnosticism and other Christological heresies, condemns any form of the Church etc. etc. etc.
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 10:15:04 PM »

Sure, the most dangerous thing in Jazz music might be at most a veiled sexual reference at most.

Jazz is linked with drugs, also.

Quote
Somehow that pales in comparison to a genre of music founded on the principles of a spiritual movement that subjugates women, supports Gnosticism and other Christological heresies, condemns any form of the Church etc. etc. etc.

Which kind of music, therefore, conveys correct theological doctrine?
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 10:17:35 PM »

The point is not that the music has to espouse correct theological doctrine, it's to avoid music which is composed of overtly incorrect theology. IMHO. You may listen to whatever you wish, I for one, am glad I got out.
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 10:27:45 PM »

The point is not that the music has to espouse correct theological doctrine, it's to avoid music which is composed of overtly incorrect theology. IMHO. You may listen to whatever you wish, I for one, am glad I got out.

You got out of what? Huh You had an adverse experience with Reggae? And no offence intended, but I still don't follow how music conveys ideas. 
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2008, 10:55:43 PM »

I'm a former Rastafarian.
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 11:06:09 PM »

Oh, I see. So as a convert from Rastafarianism, reggae for you has some "unhealthy" connections. As I've always been a Christian, it doesn't for me. And as I love music, I have rather eclectic tastes. To me, music is something I enjoy for the way it makes me feel. I've been known to screech along with Iron Maiden if the mood takes me.  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2008, 11:49:55 PM »

Oh come on... music's just music. Just listen to it and enjoy.  laugh
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2008, 01:05:07 AM »

Oh come on... music's just music. Just listen to it and enjoy.  laugh
Music is my life and my ministry, so I have a lot of experience with how music impacts me the performer, and how it impacts my listeners.  It is a very powerful force that can be used for good or for evil.  I have trouble believing, though, that the naturally destructive powers of some styles of music allow these styles to accomplish any good, regardless of the lyrics.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2008, 01:12:14 AM »

Peace Everyone,

Actually, I was a little surprised at the reaction to the post. I didn't know that reggae came with negative emotional baggage for some. For me, growing up in a beach scene, I heard reggae as a kid all the way till I was an adult. The whole Kaya thang was there but I never got caught up in it so I was never pulled down. What I found though was a constant reminder of God, our journey as pilgrims, and the need to trust and have faith in Him. That has always had a profound effect on me and I believe it's presence in my life was instrumental in me entering the faith as an adult. I still have a great deal of effection for reggae but I'm very sorry if bringing it up causes anyone a stumbling block. Please pardon me.
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2008, 01:17:06 AM »

Music is my life and my ministry, so I have a lot of experience with how music impacts me the performer, and how it impacts my listeners.  It is a very powerful force that can be used for good or for evil.  I have trouble believing, though, that the naturally destructive powers of some styles of music allow these styles to accomplish any good, regardless of the lyrics.

Hmmm... tough nut to crack there. Would you be, in anyway, implying Christian punk? Anyways, I'm an avid lover of blues, soul, and rock and roll... I wonder what people will say to that.
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2008, 01:22:17 AM »

Peace Everyone,

Actually, I was a little surprised at the reaction to the post. I didn't know that reggae came with negative emotional baggage for some. For me, growing up in a beach scene, I heard reggae as a kid all the way till I was an adult. The whole Kaya thang was there but I never got caught up in it so I was never pulled down. What I found though was a constant reminder of God, our journey as pilgrims, and the need to trust and have faith in Him. That has always had a profound effect on me and I believe it's presence in my life was instrumental in me entering the faith as an adult. I still have a great deal of effection for reggae but I'm very sorry if bringing it up causes anyone a stumbling block. Please pardon me.

It's not a huge issue, I'm just making it clear that reggae is not all the same......if you want to listen to Luciano for example or even Bob Marley you will be fine, as the doctrine is either not there or in a form that is as close as you can get to Orthodoxy without being Orthodox. It's not just music to these people. It's life. They write what they write to communicate their world view. In many cases, that world view is not compatible with Orthodoxy, so I'm kinda wondering why a person would go down that route. Once again, it's down to personal discernment.
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2008, 02:37:09 AM »

Music is my life and my ministry, so I have a lot of experience with how music impacts me the performer, and how it impacts my listeners.  It is a very powerful force that can be used for good or for evil.  I have trouble believing, though, that the naturally destructive powers of some styles of music allow these styles to accomplish any good, regardless of the lyrics.

Yes, some music is more destructive than others in how it affects us, I agree. More than thirty seconds of country music and I'm begining to feel homicidal. Jazz has a ten second fuse. Grin

However, I'm still at a loss as to how music alone can convey ideology. Of course, there is that little inspirational thought that one would delight in napalming the country-western station on the radio.
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2008, 03:42:36 AM »

If you go slightly earlier than reggae, into ska or rocksteady, or maybe the earliest reggae ala "Toots and the Maytals" most of them were Christians and not rastas, some of which is adequately expressed in the music.  Grin

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Glory hallelujah
I'll be in Heaven one day
Those passing on that day
Give me mind to serve Jesus everywhere in my life
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and Revelations
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Give me mind to serve my master everywhere
Give me mind to serve Jesus
Give me mind to serve my lord
Give me mind to serve Jesus everywhere
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Give me mind to serve my master everywhere 
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2008, 11:21:37 AM »

Jah, mon!

 Reggae riddims help me keep a cool head, mon!  When I and I listen to dem sweet riddims, every'ting gwon be irie! Cheesy

L O L !!!
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 11:29:12 AM »

If you go slightly earlier than reggae, into ska or rocksteady, or maybe the earliest reggae ala "Toots and the Maytals" most of them were Christians and not rastas, some of which is adequately expressed in the music.  Grin

The Maytals
Matthew Mark
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Glory hallelujah
I'll be in Heaven one day
Those passing on that day
Give me mind to serve Jesus everywhere in my life
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and Revelations
yes I know the good book
Give me mind to serve my master everywhere
Give me mind to serve Jesus
Give me mind to serve my lord
Give me mind to serve Jesus everywhere
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and Revelations
yes I know the good book
Give me mind to serve my master everywhere 


Very good post!

Thanks.
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 11:30:31 AM »

It's not a huge issue, I'm just making it clear that reggae is not all the same......if you want to listen to Luciano for example or even Bob Marley you will be fine, as the doctrine is either not there or in a form that is as close as you can get to Orthodoxy without being Orthodox. It's not just music to these people. It's life. They write what they write to communicate their world view. In many cases, that world view is not compatible with Orthodoxy, so I'm kinda wondering why a person would go down that route. Once again, it's down to personal discernment.

What about The Abyssinians?
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 11:42:38 AM »

The *ideology* aspect of music does, on some levels, make sense.  Let's use Reggae as an example.  If a person happens to be a Rastafarian, when he/she hears Reggae music (with or without lyrics) my guess is that it will convey the Rastafarian ideology.   If a person is not a Rastaman/woman, Reggae won't have that affect.  So, using my poor analogy, it seems that music can sometimes convey ideologies.  When it comes to ideas or moods I think music is very very powerful.  For instance, Reggae music.  It mellows and relaxes me and puts me in a good mood and gives me the idea that everything is OK.  But if I listen to Gansta Rap (not Hip Hop per se), it goes downhill pretty fast and makes me very aggravated.

This is how I understand the Ideology/Idea issue with music.
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 11:53:47 AM »

What about The Abyssinians?

What about them?

Who are the "Abyssinians"?

Do you mean Ethiopian?
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 12:11:18 PM »

What about them?

Who are the "Abyssinians"?

Do you mean Ethiopian?


Father Deacon,

The Abyssinians are a roots reggae band.  You can read a little about them here on wikipedia.
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 02:05:25 PM »

Father Deacon,

The Abyssinians are a roots reggae band.  You can read a little about them here on wikipedia.

Oh!

Thanks...
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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 02:15:52 PM »

What about The Abyssinians?

That's a tough call. I looked at their lyrics and nothing really screams "Divinity of the Emperor", but at the same time it looks like two of their members are Bobo Ashanti....so I'm a little leery of that.
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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 03:48:34 PM »

The Abyssinians first record "Satta Massagana" (1972) was a collection of songs mostly written and recorded in the late 60s.  At least two members of the group were attending the EOC (Donald Manning, Lynford Manning).  Their older brother was a deacon at the time.  Eventually their older brother became a priest, and was later present at Bob Marley's baptism and served at Mr. Marley's Funeral Liturgy.  I happened to see them play live last year and Mr. Manning started off the show by standing straight and crossing himself in orthodox style.  I dont know what it means to him and dont see any point in speculating. 

Here are the lyrics to the song "Satta Massagana" which some say is the most influential reggae song in reggae history:
Quote
SATTA MASSAGANA
(B Collins / D Manning / L Manning)

There is a land, far far away
Where there's no night, there's only day
Look into the book of life, and you will see
That there's a land, far far away
That there's a land, far far away

The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords
Sit upon His throne and He rules us all
Look into the book of life, and you will see
That He rules us all
That He rules us all

The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords
Sit upon His throne and He rules us all
Look into the book of life, and you will see
That He rules us all
That He rules us all

There is a land, far far away
Where there's no night, there's only day
Look into the book of life, and you will see
That there's a land, far far away
That there's a land, far far away

Satta Massagana
Ahamlack, Ulaghize
Satta Massagana
Ahamlack, Ulaghize
Ulaghize, Ulaghize

Here's an article about the making of it:
Satta Massa Gana: The making of an anthem

I personally really enjoy the music on this album and highly recommend it.
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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 05:17:08 PM »

By the way for those not fluent in Amharic, "Satta Massagana Ahamlack, Ulaghize" means "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".
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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 07:08:35 PM »

By the way for those not fluent in Amharic, "Satta Massagana Ahamlack, Ulaghize" means "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".

Very good!

Where did you learn my Language?

You are not correct in your translation but it is not misleading either.

What you are phonetically writing here is not Amharic but Geeze. ( Ancient Ethiopic NOT Amharic)

If you do not mind; a good English phonetic of the intended Geeze above would be:

Se-ateh mis-genah Amlak Hulu-geezeh::
(We Give thanks to God now and at all times)

Se-ahtah = at present or now

Mis-genah = 'give' thanks...'we'

Amlak = God

Hulu = All or every

Geezeh = time (or times)

If you want to have the Amaharic for:
 
In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Be-Ab be-Weld be-Manfesqiduse be and Amlak inna amenalin
(lit: of Father of Son of Holy Spirit and of one God our belief)

If you want to have the Geez which is very ancient and used typically by all Amharic speakers including me and most all other Ethiopian Orthodox this is more 'sweet':

In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....
Besime Ab we-Weld we-Manfesqiduse ahadu Amlak Amein.
(lit: the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit one God we believe or "Amen")

I do not wamt to insult with correcting you.

I think you did a nice job and even if I had not seen this translation you would have guided others to the 'truth of the heart' of the actually statement.

Oh!

When pronouncing the above phonetics ALL a's are pronounced ...AH, ALL e's are pronounced...EH, a 'q' is like saying the the 'c' sound in 'q'uart, ALL i's are pronounced...IH.

Selaam

Fr Deacon Amde Tsion





« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 07:09:46 PM by Amdetsion » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2008, 07:30:09 PM »

Hehe....I had some Amharic lessons back as a Rasta....I'm really rusty though.
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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2008, 07:31:32 PM »

Which is obvious.....you just reminded me of the correct Amharic version. Smiley

Thank you Father Deacon.

May Ethiopia continue to strecth forth Her hands unto God!
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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2008, 10:37:35 PM »

The *ideology* aspect of music does, on some levels, make sense.  Let's use Reggae as an example.  If a person happens to be a Rastafarian, when he/she hears Reggae music (with or without lyrics) my guess is that it will convey the Rastafarian ideology.

Yes, but as you acknowledge, that is only because the listener is already conversant with the ideology. By the same token, if a person was to hear the music of Christian hymn, Amazing Grace, for instance, without having any knowledge of Christiainity, the tune alone would hardly convey the Gospel message. Depending on the rendition, (bagpipes rock!) it would invoke different emotional responses, but certainly it wouldn't convey ideology.

An example of how lyrics convey ideology would be Haydn's rousing anthem for the birthday of the Austrian Emperor Francis II, Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser,

God save Franz the Emperor, our good Emperor Francis!
Long live Franz the Emperor in the brightest splendor of bliss!
May laurel branches bloom for him, wherever he goes, as a wreath of honour.
God save Franz the Emperor, our good Emperor Franz!


Later this was the anthem of Austria.

But we probably equate the tune with very different lyrics and a very different ideology. The lyrics of the German National Athem, were written in the mid 1800s (if I remember correctly) and the first stanza was heavily used by the Nazis.

Germany, Germany above all,
above everything in the world,
When it always, for protection and defence,
Brotherly stands together.
From the Meuse to the Neman,
From the Adige to the Belt,
  Germany, Germany above all,
       Above anything in the world.


It is still Hayden's rousing tune, but a very different ideology conveyed. The Nazis conveniently dropped the second and third stanzas because they didn't fit with their agenda.

The modern German National Anthem is still Hayden's tune, but only the third stanza lyrics are used.

Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland;
For these let us all strive,
Brotherly with heart and hand.
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the pledge of fortune.
 flourish in this fortune's blessing,
  flourish, German fatherland.


And there are English Christian lyrics to the tune. I remember the hymn during school assemblies. The first stanza goes;

Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation’s walls surrounded,
Thou may’st smile at all thy foes.

So here we have one tune, one I believe to be particularly inspiring btw, but on each ocassion it is the lyrics that convey ideology.

Quote
For instance, Reggae music.  It mellows and relaxes me and puts me in a good mood and gives me the idea that everything is OK.  But if I listen to Gansta Rap (not Hip Hop per se), it goes downhill pretty fast and makes me very aggravated.

Yes, I know what you mean. I can't even pick out the lyrics, so it's definitely the disrupted rythym that aggravates me. laugh

I'm not saying that music alone doesn't have affect on the emotions. You will notice that national anthems purposefully employ an inspiring grandeur that stirs one emotionally, and I love the tunes of the French "La Marseillaise" and "The Star Spangled Banner", but, and no offence intended, those lyrics of... "March, march/let impure blood/Water our furrows!" and... "Their blood has wiped out their foul footsteps' pollution" are what produces the patriotic ferver that carries men into battle, not the music. Men don't go into a fight humming a tune; they go singing what amounts to "fighting talk"; something the self-respecting pacifist simply doesn't appreciate!  Tongue

Sorry, I realise that this is off-topic.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 11:02:13 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2008, 10:10:59 AM »

Hmmm... tough nut to crack there. Would you be, in anyway, implying Christian punk? Anyways, I'm an avid lover of blues, soul, and rock and roll... I wonder what people will say to that.
I mostly listen to punk and heavier music (except when driving Grin). As mentioned my wife listen to doomsday-metal. I can not understand to concept of "I'm a christian therefore I do not listen to this and that".

That being said, songs with lyrics are a long rant of blasphemy would not be heard in my house.  police

Edit: Riddikulus, you are right, no one is arguing against you. When people say "music can be dangerous" they actually mean more than the actual music.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 10:13:59 AM by Robert W » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2008, 06:06:49 PM »

I listen to a little Reggae but not because I find it spiritual.  I particularly like Bob Marley and Toots and the Maytals. 
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