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Author Topic: Vestment Horror  (Read 12037 times) Average Rating: 0
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arimethea
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2009, 09:07:18 AM »

What are the highbacks for anyway? How did they develop liturgically?

Most russian churches were frigidly cold and when parishoners would open a door, the cold air would rush in. So to keep the cold air off the back of the priest's neck, the high back was designed to block the rush of air.

-Nick

That is the folk story behind them but the truth is the Highbacks developed in Constantinople in order to keep the long hair of the monastics under the Phelon. Most of the outwards liturgical practices are based on a snapshot of the Constantinople practices that existed when the Nikonian reforms occured. It is interesting that in Greece the highbacks (which are not as high as the Russian style and also lack the stiff backing) are call Athonite.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2009, 12:54:41 PM »

In the Armenian Church the priests wear a very high collar in back, that is attached separately.  I was told it was to protect the priest, since satan always strikes from behind.  Another folk piety, I am sure.   Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2009, 01:37:01 PM »

The beauty of vestments isn't something you find outside the Orthodox Church.

Shenanigans.

Just because some Roman Catholics and Anglicans have made an art out of hideous vestments doesn't mean others aren't beautifully made liturgical items.
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2009, 01:23:36 AM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!

(breath)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....


Okay, Im done. 

Evil, evil vestments.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2009, 03:58:39 AM »

We should go back to the era when major monastic land holdings controlled a large percentage of arable land, and such monasteries owned the serfs that worked the land.  All for the gory of God. 

One doesn't have to become an extremist and go iconoclastic, but a health amount of skepticism about how money is being spent within the church is a good thing - even laying aside the issue of whether that many diamonds, that many gold leafed icons are really necessary, major financial scandals in multiple jurisdictions in the past few years ought to make the laity aware that no hierarch can have a carte blanche with our money. 



Amen!


"Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron, to give him dignity and honor. Tell all the skilled men to whom I have given wisdom in such matters that they are to make garments for Aaron, for his consecration, so he may serve me as priest.  These are the garments they are to make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash. They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests.  Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.” Exodus 28:1-5

The rest of Chapter 28 in the book of Exodus goes on in fine detail how the finest linens and jewels were to be used for the priest’s vestments. This was done at a time when Israel was hardly a “rich” nation, and there were many poor among them.

Yes, we are to give to the poor, and minister to those in need. But at the same time our Temples are to be beautifully decorated, as are our priest’s garments.


I agree that a good argument can be made for beautiful vestments.  But IMHO, such a quote from the old testament in support of this is not a good support for such a practice, or is at the very least confusing or problematic, since the priesthood of our new covenant presbyters has no relation whatsoever to the levitical priesthood. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:59:35 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2009, 04:15:40 AM »

I agree that a good argument can be made for beautiful vestments.  But IMHO, such a quote from the old testament in support of this is not a good support for such a practice, or is at the very least confusing or problematic, since the priesthood of our new covenant presbyters has no relation whatsoever to the levitical priesthood. 

Considering that we use the arguement that the Apostles carried forth Judaic Liturgical Worship into Christian Worship, the Orthodox Church Architecture has similarities to that of the Jewish temple, I think the parallels are quite appropriate. It also builds the arguement that decor has been a fundamental part of worshipping God from the beginning.
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2009, 04:19:47 AM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!

(breath)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....


Okay, Im done. 

Evil, evil vestments.

I am unclear as to your exact feelings towards this. Can you please elaborate? Tongue j/k
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2009, 04:26:37 AM »

Considering that we use the arguement that the Apostles carried forth Judaic Liturgical Worship into Christian Worship, the Orthodox Church Architecture has similarities to that of the Jewish temple, I think the parallels are quite appropriate. It also builds the arguement that decor has been a fundamental part of worshipping God from the beginning.

But this "carried over" worship is completely transfigured in its Christian context.  The resurrection of Christ (and his ascension and his giving of the Spirit to the Church)  and its implications turn the meaning of this worship on its head.  And I repeat, the levitical priesthood has nothing to do with the ministry of our Orthodox presbyters.  Your point about decor being a part of worshipping God from the beginning is well taken.
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2009, 04:54:24 AM »

Your point about decor being a part of worshipping God from the beginning is well taken.

Thank you.

That is the point, and the only point I was trying to make. Decor has been used from the beginning in both vestments and decor of the building (since you take umbridge to the word "Temple.") We should continue to decorate both our priest's vestments and our buildings in addition to giving to the poor, just as the Jews did in the Old Testament, and the Christians continued under the New Covenant in the New Testament.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2009, 04:09:36 PM »

That is the point, and the only point I was trying to make.

I should probably have acknowledged that more.
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2009, 02:59:34 AM »

The piece of clothing (?) in question looks like a cross between amodern art, a Broadway advertisment for a brand new gay musical, and a kite. 

Wonder if it flies if I can put some sticks on it and some string to test the theory on a windy day.
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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2009, 05:32:33 PM »

The piece of clothing (?) in question looks like a cross between amodern art, a Broadway advertisment for a brand new gay musical, and a kite. 

Wonder if it flies if I can put some sticks on it and some string to test the theory on a windy day.

Speaking of that, it reminds me of the RC church where we used to hold services as a mission parish. We rented the Knights of Columbus hall at a RC church, but on major feast days (mainly Pascha) we served Holy Friday-Pascha in their main church, which was huge. The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people. So it's a huge church, with a lot of marble and old oak pillars/ceiling. Actually a very pretty church, not like modern RC churches today. Anyway, since Pascha usually falls after Western Easter, we would come on Holy Friday to see this giant sheet with Christ on it, with multicolored streamers coming out of it, all covering up the giant crucifix w/ corpus over the main altar. Not only was it the whitest Jesus I've ever seen, it was also just a very ugly thing in such a pretty church. The other subdeacons and I came to call it "Parasailing Jesus". haha
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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2009, 05:41:33 PM »

The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people.

I would say there are mulitple multiple Canonical Orthodox Christian Jurisdictions in the USA/Canada that don't encompass 10,000 families in themselves. 
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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2009, 01:55:14 AM »

The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people.

I would say there are mulitple multiple Canonical Orthodox Christian Jurisdictions in the USA/Canada that don't encompass 10,000 families in themselves. 

lol I know. That's why it's funny when I tell people average Orthodox churches don't grow above maybe 200-300 people. I'm pretty sure my parish could fit tenfold inside the RC church where I live.
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Tags: clerical dress vestments New Skete My neck is cold! 
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