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Author Topic: Vestment Horror  (Read 12360 times) Average Rating: 0
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TinaG
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« on: January 30, 2008, 03:02:43 PM »

Carolina at The Crescat has got some of the most hideous vestments posted and had this one today.  Liberace would have been so proud.




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« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 03:10:41 PM »

One of my Catholic co-workers just saw this thing, and said it was one reason for not going back to the Latin mass and turning your back on the congregation.
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 03:11:16 PM »

My chin is sore...right where it made contact with my keyboard...
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 03:12:10 PM »

I thought I was the only one here that visited crescat...

I find it interesting and bs crazy...

pax etc etc
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2008, 09:30:37 AM »

One of my Catholic co-workers just saw this thing, and said it was one reason for not going back to the Latin mass and turning your back on the congregation.

Of course it is important to note:

1) that any Roman Catholic priest who is traditional enough to desire to offer the Mass in the Extraordinary form is unlikely to wear such an eyesore.
2) there are actually rules in the Extraordinary form about proper vestments.

If anything this type of nonsense is a good reasons to consider returning to the Extraordinary form.  The more precise celebration of the Mass is less likely to encourage such "individuality."
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2008, 09:42:31 AM »

Is the clown one actually real? or is it a joke?
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 09:59:24 AM »

Carole,

Please forgive my ignorance, but my family have not been Catholic since the nineteenth century. I don't understand what you mean by Extraordinary form. I've done a search, but like so many Catholic issues, it hasn't come up very often--and when it does, it's usually assumed that the audience understands it.

From what I can tell, the Extraordinary form is the older one, the one in Latin. When the RC changed to local languages, they instituted an Ordinary form, which prescribed only some things in the liturgy and left other things to the individual parish's or priest's discretion.

I could be horribly wrong, and I probably am, but the information here is sketchy.  Embarrassed Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 10:40:26 AM »

Of course it is important to note:

1) that any Roman Catholic priest who is traditional enough to desire to offer the Mass in the Extraordinary form is unlikely to wear such an eyesore.
2) there are actually rules in the Extraordinary form about proper vestments.

If anything this type of nonsense is a good reasons to consider returning to the Extraordinary form.  The more precise celebration of the Mass is less likely to encourage such "individuality."

You're exactly right.  I just for the life of me can't imagine why any priest would think this is appropriate.  Some of the others linked at The Crescat are much worse than this one unfortunately.  The priest by his vestments says worship is dignified and reverent, not "Woo Hoo - I'm cool and contemporary, look at me - my pretty robes have a message."
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 10:56:29 AM »

This is real?
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 12:01:26 PM »

I just love to see beautiful vestments.  Not Earth Day or Jesus Loves You vestments, not Hippy Hollow (for my Texas friends in the know) or Noah's Ark vestments.  Traditional vestments that glorify God and his church, not cartoonish dress-up costumes.  Now with modern textile manufacturing, the fabrics are relatively cheaper and easier to make.  I can't even imagine what time and effort it took to weave the fabrics, embroider and decorate these by hand hand hundreds of years ago.



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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2008, 12:14:31 PM »

Re. the Rainbow Ladies vestment, The Crescat originally got their link through a German internet forum; sorry my German isn't good enough to tell exactly what is being said, but I got from the gist of it some of the posters didn't like it either. 

http://www.katholon.net/viewtopic.php?t=861&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=08daa5fb650172653ba5e28ec0f4687d

Check out The Crescat sometime.  She has the most extensive collection of Catholic and Orthodox blogs and links, as well as some great photo collections.
http://thecrescat.blogspot.com/.   Here are the other vestment winners (Please tell me if the link works - my work computer is blocking full access to the photos so I don't know if the link is active or not):



The clown vestments are real.  They come from the venerable and historical Old Clown Rite.  Found the photos on one of the Traditional Catholic websites that documents liturgical abuse (sorry don't have the link off hand).

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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 01:00:24 PM »



From what I can tell, the Extraordinary form is the older one, the one in Latin. When the RC changed to local languages, they instituted an Ordinary form, which prescribed only some things in the liturgy and left other things to the individual parish's or priest's discretion.

I could be horribly wrong, and I probably am, but the information here is sketchy.  Embarrassed Undecided

You would be right.  Recently, the Holy Father issued what is called a motu proprio, which is a papal document issued "on his own", so to speak.  The document is entitled Summorum Pontificum and can be read at this website.  In this document, the Holy Father removed restrictions placed on the Traditional Latin Mass, allowing priests to celebrate the TLM without permission from the local bishop, as was the law in place for the past 20 years or so since PJPII released Ecclesia Dei.  Pope Benedict coined the phrase "Extraordinary From" for the ancient rite and uses the term "Ordinary Form" to refer to what is commonly known as the Novus Ordo.  He did this in order to promulgate the idea that there are not two Latin rites, but one in two different forms.  The idea is that now that these two forms are now, theoretically at least, side by side in dignity, they can possibly affect one another in an organic way for the betterment of both forms of the Latin rite. 

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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 03:04:56 PM »

Re. the Rainbow Ladies vestment, The Crescat originally got their link through a German internet forum; sorry my German isn't good enough to tell exactly what is being said, but I got from the gist of it some of the posters didn't like it either. 

http://www.katholon.net/viewtopic.php?t=861&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=08daa5fb650172653ba5e28ec0f4687d
Traditional Catholic websites that documents liturgical abuse (sorry don't have the link off hand).



Yah the posters DEFINITELY didn't like it.  In fact one person was like "what's the "middle point" the priest(ess) or God?"  Meaning, who is supposed to be the central focus.  I think it's a good question. 
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 04:45:18 PM »

Perhaps  latin rite liturgics and rubrics are best discussed outside of the "other forum."  Other than that, that is one ugly vestment Tina G posted. 
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 05:39:26 PM »

I just love to see beautiful vestments.  Not Earth Day or Jesus Loves You vestments, not Hippy Hollow (for my Texas friends in the know) or Noah's Ark vestments.  Traditional vestments that glorify God and his church, not cartoonish dress-up costumes.  Now with modern textile manufacturing, the fabrics are relatively cheaper and easier to make.  I can't even imagine what time and effort it took to weave the fabrics, embroider and decorate these by hand hand hundreds of years ago.





This brings me back to my post on another topic related to all the gold and glitz . . . yes the Orthodox vestments are beautiful . . . but do we really need gold and glitz?  Such intricate threading and embroidery?  And if we do need it . . . WHY?
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2008, 05:45:23 PM »

This brings me back to my post on another topic related to all the gold and glitz . . . yes the Orthodox vestments are beautiful . . . but do we really need gold and glitz?  Such intricate threading and embroidery?  And if we do need it . . . WHY?

Which brings me back to Fr. Chris' and PetertheAleut's posts in that same thread in response to your post....where they both answered that same question.
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2008, 11:05:21 PM »

Which brings me back to Fr. Chris' and PetertheAleut's posts in that same thread in response to your post....where they both answered that same question.

Which brings me back to my conclusion . . .  Huh
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2008, 03:43:31 AM »

...that there is an inherent tension (not contradiction) between the Bible's call for helping the poor and giving all honor and glory to God?
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2008, 06:43:27 AM »

...that there is an inherent tension (not contradiction) between the Bible's call for helping the poor and giving all honor and glory to God?

Is that a trick question Huh           Wink
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2008, 01:59:41 PM »

...that there is an inherent tension (not contradiction) between the Bible's call for helping the poor and giving all honor and glory to God?

We should go back to the era when major monastic land holdings controlled a large percentage of arable land, and such monasteries owned the serfs that worked the land.  All for the gory of God. 

One doesn't have to become an extremist and go iconoclastic, but a health amount of skepticism about how money is being spent within the church is a good thing - even laying aside the issue of whether that many diamonds, that many gold leafed icons are really necessary, major financial scandals in multiple jurisdictions in the past few years ought to make the laity aware that no hierarch can have a carte blanche with our money. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2008, 02:47:15 PM »

We should go back to the era when major monastic land holdings controlled a large percentage of arable land, and such monasteries owned the serfs that worked the land.  All for the gory of God. 

One doesn't have to become an extremist and go iconoclastic, but a health amount of skepticism about how money is being spent within the church is a good thing - even laying aside the issue of whether that many diamonds, that many gold leafed icons are really necessary, major financial scandals in multiple jurisdictions in the past few years ought to make the laity aware that no hierarch can have a carte blanche with our money. 

Amen!
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2008, 08:38:59 PM »

I'm surprised no one posted the equally horrible vestment of an Orthodox priest at the New Skete Pilgrimage, August 13, 2006.

http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm

Its the 7th one down on the left.  I tried to attach the photo, but with no luck.

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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2008, 08:41:22 PM »

^ Well, it is certainly 'interesting'. I wonder if his grandkids made it for him and...
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2008, 09:36:50 PM »

^^ When did Mother Teresa and Pope Paul VI become Orthodox Saints? (under Church of the Holy Wisdom - Wall Icons)

The iconographer jumped the gun a little bit on Orthodox/Catholic unity ...  Shocked
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2008, 10:16:25 PM »

They do not have halos or holy before their names indicating they have not been glorified but are dear to the memory of the monks of New Skete.  Archbishop Michael Ramsey of the Anglican Church is there as well.  New Skete does celebrate the Feasts of St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi.
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2008, 11:56:27 PM »

^ So an entity, under the omophorion of an autocephalous Orthodox Church, can celebrate non-Orthodox saints and have images of non-Orthodox persons grace its walls?  Can clergy also wear whatever vestments they want?

Mods, please move if I'm taking the thread off topic.   Smiley

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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2008, 12:30:44 AM »

Carolina at The Crescat has got some of the most hideous vestments posted and had this one today.  Liberace would have been so proud.





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« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2008, 12:53:40 AM »

Call John Waters! He might offer that priest a role in his next film!  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 01:40:46 PM »

They do not have halos or holy before their names indicating they have not been glorified but are dear to the memory of the monks of New Skete.  Archbishop Michael Ramsey of the Anglican Church is there as well.  New Skete does celebrate the Feasts of St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked

I did a double take when I saw SoG Pope Paul VI, SoG Dorothy Day, Bl. Teresa of Calcutta and Michael Ramsey on the walls!

I'm also amazed that they celebrate the feasts of St. Francis and St. Clare. How do they do this without getting into trouble? These weren't 11th-century saints. The Churches were clearly in schism by their time. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 01:51:59 PM »

^ Maybe New Skete has already reunited with Catholicism?   Huh

All this scandal involving Met. Herman really has its roots in New Skete and they have managed to keep the real reason out of the public realm.   Huh

Disclaimer: I hope that the above are not true and there are no other logical explanations for Catholic Saints to grace the walls of this one Orthodox entity.
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2008, 02:10:51 PM »

Disclaimer: I hope that the above are not true and there are no other logical explanations for Catholic Saints to grace the walls of this one Orthodox entity.

As a matter of fact, none of those people on the wall are canonized Catholic saints. The closest there is is Blessed Teresa of Calcutta (we are still awaiting a second confirmed miracle before her canonization can move forward). One of them---Michael Ramsey---isn't even Catholic.
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 04:41:56 PM »

^ So an entity, under the omophorion of an autocephalous Orthodox Church, can celebrate non-Orthodox saints and have images of non-Orthodox persons grace its walls?  Can clergy also wear whatever vestments they want?

Mods, please move if I'm taking the thread off topic.   Smiley



The paintings in the New Skete church portraying non-Orthodox people are a dangerous case of syncretism. A visitor to this church could easily assume that Mother Theresa, Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI and Abp Michael Ramsey are held in good standing by the Orthodox Church, and that they may well be candidates for consideration for sainthood. It was a grave and incomprehensible mistake to allow such images to be painted on the walls of an Orthodox church. It doesn't matter a scrap whether these figures are painted with or without haloes, they should simply never have been painted on the walls of an Orthodox church! As for the Orthodox figures, time will tell if Fr Alexander Schmemann, Patriarch Athenagoras, or Fr Lev Gillett will be proclaimed as saints in the future. At least Mother Maria (Skobtsova) was recently glorified as Newmartyr Maria of Paris and Ravensbruck.
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2008, 09:32:00 AM »

I believe New Skete was founded by people who were originally Latin-rite Franciscans and became Byzantine rite before they founded the monastery in the sixties.  They didn't join the Orthodox Church until 1981.  I don't know what their leadership believes now, but it is certainly fair to say that they have had a very ecumenical attitude about the Church in the past.  They have some interesting ideas about liturgy that I think go too far at times.  I believe there are some old threads about New Skete that people can seek out for more discussion on this group, or people can start a new thread about them if they wish. 

And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread concerning vestments.
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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2009, 06:45:02 PM »

Yes, terrible vestments are despicable. I love bringing some of my inquisitive friends to church, because they all say "What is he wearing? What is that called? What does it mean?". The beauty of vestments isn't something you find outside the Orthodox Church. After all, searching for new vestments is the only time I can say "Oooh, I like the one with the vines and flowers" and not feel like a little girl. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2009, 09:25:39 PM »

Yikes!  My first time seeing this thread.  Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Vestments indeed!
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« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2009, 09:48:17 PM »

It is a shame to see vestments like that.  Personally, the most beautiful vestments I have ever seen in person were those worn during the Ambrosian rite in Milan and when I saw the Roman Catholic Patriarch of Venice presiding over a mass.  I know, I know, how Western of me.
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2009, 04:31:44 AM »

Best Priest's vestments I've ever seen: LINK
White with blue patterns, perfect!
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 06:28:42 AM »

We should go back to the era when major monastic land holdings controlled a large percentage of arable land, and such monasteries owned the serfs that worked the land.  All for the gory of God. 

One doesn't have to become an extremist and go iconoclastic, but a health amount of skepticism about how money is being spent within the church is a good thing - even laying aside the issue of whether that many diamonds, that many gold leafed icons are really necessary, major financial scandals in multiple jurisdictions in the past few years ought to make the laity aware that no hierarch can have a carte blanche with our money. 

Amen!


"Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron, to give him dignity and honor. Tell all the skilled men to whom I have given wisdom in such matters that they are to make garments for Aaron, for his consecration, so he may serve me as priest.  These are the garments they are to make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash. They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests.  Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.” Exodus 28:1-5

The rest of Chapter 28 in the book of Exodus goes on in fine detail how the finest linens and jewels were to be used for the priest’s vestments. This was done at a time when Israel was hardly a “rich” nation, and there were many poor among them.

Yes, we are to give to the poor, and minister to those in need. But at the same time our Temples are to be beautifully decorated, as are our priest’s garments.
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2009, 06:30:09 AM »

I'm surprised no one posted the equally horrible vestment of an Orthodox priest at the New Skete Pilgrimage, August 13, 2006.

http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm

Its the 7th one down on the left.  I tried to attach the photo, but with no luck.



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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2009, 08:29:41 AM »

Best Priest's vestments I've ever seen: LINK
White with blue patterns, perfect!

One of the deacons at my church just bought a new pair of vestments with those exact patterns. I really like them.
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 08:46:08 AM »






Thank you for sharing the horrible vestments! Who would ever want to wear something so hideous? Those highbacks are just obnoxious.  Grin
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2009, 09:24:20 AM »

The Russian Highbacks are beautiful, if made and wore properly.  I've seen some Byzantine style, generally wore by Eastern rite Catholics,that are extremely short and look horrid.  Also, I've seen one place that made the Byzantine style that was almost a complete circle.  If the priest dropped his hands, he would have difficulty lifting the front.  I really love the work done by the nuns at Convent of St. Elizabeth.
http://www.conventofsaintelizabeth.org/vestments/orthodox/index.html
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2009, 09:38:00 AM »

What are the highbacks for anyway? How did they develop liturgically?
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2009, 09:58:58 AM »

What are the highbacks for anyway? How did they develop liturgically?

Most russian churches were frigidly cold and when parishoners would open a door, the cold air would rush in. So to keep the cold air off the back of the priest's neck, the high back was designed to block the rush of air.

-Nick
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2009, 10:02:41 AM »

Most russian churches were frigidly cold and when parishoners would open a door, the cold air would rush in. So to keep the cold air off the back of the priest's neck, the high back was designed to block the rush of air.
-Nick
Very interesting. Thank you, and God Bless!
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2009, 09:07:18 AM »

What are the highbacks for anyway? How did they develop liturgically?

Most russian churches were frigidly cold and when parishoners would open a door, the cold air would rush in. So to keep the cold air off the back of the priest's neck, the high back was designed to block the rush of air.

-Nick

That is the folk story behind them but the truth is the Highbacks developed in Constantinople in order to keep the long hair of the monastics under the Phelon. Most of the outwards liturgical practices are based on a snapshot of the Constantinople practices that existed when the Nikonian reforms occured. It is interesting that in Greece the highbacks (which are not as high as the Russian style and also lack the stiff backing) are call Athonite.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2009, 12:54:41 PM »

In the Armenian Church the priests wear a very high collar in back, that is attached separately.  I was told it was to protect the priest, since satan always strikes from behind.  Another folk piety, I am sure.   Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2009, 01:37:01 PM »

The beauty of vestments isn't something you find outside the Orthodox Church.

Shenanigans.

Just because some Roman Catholics and Anglicans have made an art out of hideous vestments doesn't mean others aren't beautifully made liturgical items.
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2009, 01:23:36 AM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!

(breath)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....


Okay, Im done. 

Evil, evil vestments.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2009, 03:58:39 AM »

We should go back to the era when major monastic land holdings controlled a large percentage of arable land, and such monasteries owned the serfs that worked the land.  All for the gory of God. 

One doesn't have to become an extremist and go iconoclastic, but a health amount of skepticism about how money is being spent within the church is a good thing - even laying aside the issue of whether that many diamonds, that many gold leafed icons are really necessary, major financial scandals in multiple jurisdictions in the past few years ought to make the laity aware that no hierarch can have a carte blanche with our money. 



Amen!


"Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests. Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron, to give him dignity and honor. Tell all the skilled men to whom I have given wisdom in such matters that they are to make garments for Aaron, for his consecration, so he may serve me as priest.  These are the garments they are to make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a woven tunic, a turban and a sash. They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests.  Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen.” Exodus 28:1-5

The rest of Chapter 28 in the book of Exodus goes on in fine detail how the finest linens and jewels were to be used for the priest’s vestments. This was done at a time when Israel was hardly a “rich” nation, and there were many poor among them.

Yes, we are to give to the poor, and minister to those in need. But at the same time our Temples are to be beautifully decorated, as are our priest’s garments.


I agree that a good argument can be made for beautiful vestments.  But IMHO, such a quote from the old testament in support of this is not a good support for such a practice, or is at the very least confusing or problematic, since the priesthood of our new covenant presbyters has no relation whatsoever to the levitical priesthood. 
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2009, 04:15:40 AM »

I agree that a good argument can be made for beautiful vestments.  But IMHO, such a quote from the old testament in support of this is not a good support for such a practice, or is at the very least confusing or problematic, since the priesthood of our new covenant presbyters has no relation whatsoever to the levitical priesthood. 

Considering that we use the arguement that the Apostles carried forth Judaic Liturgical Worship into Christian Worship, the Orthodox Church Architecture has similarities to that of the Jewish temple, I think the parallels are quite appropriate. It also builds the arguement that decor has been a fundamental part of worshipping God from the beginning.
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2009, 04:19:47 AM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgh!

(breath)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....


Okay, Im done. 

Evil, evil vestments.

I am unclear as to your exact feelings towards this. Can you please elaborate? Tongue j/k
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2009, 04:26:37 AM »

Considering that we use the arguement that the Apostles carried forth Judaic Liturgical Worship into Christian Worship, the Orthodox Church Architecture has similarities to that of the Jewish temple, I think the parallels are quite appropriate. It also builds the arguement that decor has been a fundamental part of worshipping God from the beginning.

But this "carried over" worship is completely transfigured in its Christian context.  The resurrection of Christ (and his ascension and his giving of the Spirit to the Church)  and its implications turn the meaning of this worship on its head.  And I repeat, the levitical priesthood has nothing to do with the ministry of our Orthodox presbyters.  Your point about decor being a part of worshipping God from the beginning is well taken.
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2009, 04:54:24 AM »

Your point about decor being a part of worshipping God from the beginning is well taken.

Thank you.

That is the point, and the only point I was trying to make. Decor has been used from the beginning in both vestments and decor of the building (since you take umbridge to the word "Temple.") We should continue to decorate both our priest's vestments and our buildings in addition to giving to the poor, just as the Jews did in the Old Testament, and the Christians continued under the New Covenant in the New Testament.
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2009, 04:09:36 PM »

That is the point, and the only point I was trying to make.

I should probably have acknowledged that more.
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2009, 02:59:34 AM »

The piece of clothing (?) in question looks like a cross between amodern art, a Broadway advertisment for a brand new gay musical, and a kite. 

Wonder if it flies if I can put some sticks on it and some string to test the theory on a windy day.
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« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2009, 05:32:33 PM »

The piece of clothing (?) in question looks like a cross between amodern art, a Broadway advertisment for a brand new gay musical, and a kite. 

Wonder if it flies if I can put some sticks on it and some string to test the theory on a windy day.

Speaking of that, it reminds me of the RC church where we used to hold services as a mission parish. We rented the Knights of Columbus hall at a RC church, but on major feast days (mainly Pascha) we served Holy Friday-Pascha in their main church, which was huge. The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people. So it's a huge church, with a lot of marble and old oak pillars/ceiling. Actually a very pretty church, not like modern RC churches today. Anyway, since Pascha usually falls after Western Easter, we would come on Holy Friday to see this giant sheet with Christ on it, with multicolored streamers coming out of it, all covering up the giant crucifix w/ corpus over the main altar. Not only was it the whitest Jesus I've ever seen, it was also just a very ugly thing in such a pretty church. The other subdeacons and I came to call it "Parasailing Jesus". haha
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« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2009, 05:41:33 PM »

The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people.

I would say there are mulitple multiple Canonical Orthodox Christian Jurisdictions in the USA/Canada that don't encompass 10,000 families in themselves. 
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« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2009, 01:55:14 AM »

The church has a registry of something like 10,000 families. Families, not people.

I would say there are mulitple multiple Canonical Orthodox Christian Jurisdictions in the USA/Canada that don't encompass 10,000 families in themselves. 

lol I know. That's why it's funny when I tell people average Orthodox churches don't grow above maybe 200-300 people. I'm pretty sure my parish could fit tenfold inside the RC church where I live.
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