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« on: January 28, 2008, 12:04:27 AM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7212442.stm

A thief has broken into a car in Texas and stolen a valuable crown and other items belonging to a visiting Greek Orthodox bishop from Colorado.
Metropolitan Isaiah, an ex-US marine who served in the Korean War, was dining with others at a restaurant when the thief smashed his car's window.

The gold and silver crown is believed to be worth up to $10,000 (£5,000).

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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 12:11:28 AM »

Good luck selling that on the black market. They will probably have to break it down.
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2008, 12:12:35 AM »

Wonder if it will show up on eBay?
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2008, 12:14:21 AM »

 Huh  I could never understand why vestments and such and even church supplies in the orthodox church have to be gold, silver, jeweled and so expensive.  I'm sure that amount of money, multiplied thousands of times for the number of clergy and churches, could be used to feed the hungry, house the homeless and clothe the naked.  Just my opinion.

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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 12:15:25 AM »

Don't the bishops buy their own?
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 12:29:02 AM »

The potential opulence of the Church had bothered me when I was considering conversion, under I read the quotes from Exodus describing how God wanted to be worshipped, and the Traditions involved.

The fascinating t
ing is that, even though private money is spent on vestments, icons, etc...the Lord always  provides more for the causes and projects He calls us to complete.
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 08:15:37 AM »

I was thinking along the same lines....why does a bishop even have a crown in the first place?? I know its historical and representatives of the byantine royalty from long ago (I noticed that even some oriental orthodox bishops have this mitre like the coptic and ethiopian...I wonder if its a borrow tradition from the byzantines or just held in common with the royalty of the east long ago). To tell the truth being raised Orthodox, I still sometimes find it rediculous when the bishops/Archbishop comes to our parish and wears this gigantic thing on his head...its probably me being raised in the West but is this necessary??
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 10:15:39 AM »

You're right Timos - these are so much better.   Wink









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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2008, 02:44:13 PM »

Christ is symbolised through His Servants.

Christ is King..He is not dead. Our King Lives and is eternally enthroned.

Christ prepared His Church to 'mirror' Heaven. ("on earth as it is in Heaven").

The Crown of the bishop is the sign and seal of Christ the King who is the head of His own body the Holy Church who is enthroned at the right hand of God.

This what I am taught regarding the huge head piece and its significance.

Man and wife also wear a very ornate head peice which is for the exact same reason as a bishop since the marriage is a symbol of Christ and His inextricable oness with His Church; thus the wedding crown.

In Ethiopia the Archdeacon wears a very large ornate 'zewde' (Crown) during the Divine liturgy and very special processions where the Archbishop will be present. The Archdeacon is the right hand of the bishop. This is well preserved and the Diaconate of Ethiopia.

See my avatar which shows the Archdeacon and crown at left.

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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2008, 03:07:07 PM »

Huh  I could never understand why vestments and such and even church supplies in the orthodox church have to be gold, silver, jeweled and so expensive.  I'm sure that amount of money, multiplied thousands of times for the number of clergy and churches, could be used to feed the hungry, house the homeless and clothe the naked.  Just my opinion.

PB

The value of the crown isn't just in the materials, which may be valuable in and of themselves, but certainly not at the $10,000 level - much of the value is in that they are hand-made and hard to find.
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 03:16:59 PM »

Cheap crowns cost about $1200 USD.
The average price is about $2500 USD.
High end ones, with high quality hand painted icons cost about $5000.

If you pay more then that then you are just paying too much for it. With that said... The $10,000 figure may for insurance purposes. It could also be the total value of everything stolen.
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2008, 03:25:49 PM »

Why keep it visible in the car anyway?  Why not put it in the trunk or out of sight some other way?   Lips Sealed
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2008, 03:32:02 PM »

Why keep it visible in the car anyway?  Why not put it in the trunk or out of sight some other way?   Lips Sealed

I don't think they ever keep it 'visible,' but rather in a specially-made black carrying case (like an over-sized hat box).  But it still draws attention if its in the back seat.
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2008, 03:44:25 PM »

Check out the Dallas Morning News article, which answers some of the questions asked here.

 http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/012708stolenjewels.2a4b30b.html
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2008, 11:16:03 PM »

When Metropolitan ISAIAH visited Houston a few years back, I was in line to receive his blessing when a little girl and her mother approached the bishop.  The mother told him that when her daughter saw him wearing the crown, she asked, "Mommy, is that the king?"  The bishop, without missing a beat, looked at the little girl (she couldn't have been more than 3) and said, "No, honey.  I'm not the king.  Jesus is.  But sometimes, He lets me wear a crown."

Priceless.
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2008, 01:42:03 AM »

Huh  I could never understand why vestments and such and even church supplies in the orthodox church have to be gold, silver, jeweled and so expensive.  I'm sure that amount of money, multiplied thousands of times for the number of clergy and churches, could be used to feed the hungry, house the homeless and clothe the naked.  Just my opinion.

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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2008, 03:32:48 AM »

In Ethiopia the Archdeacon wears a very large ornate 'zewde' (Crown) during the Divine liturgy and very special processions where the Archbishop will be present.

I've always found this interesting.  In the Armenian Church, the priest wears the crown.  What I have heard is that it used to be the bishops who wore the crown, like in the EO Church, but during the Crusades the Armenian bishops came to like the Catholic bishops' mitres and started wearing those instead.  They didn't want to waste their old crowns, so they passed them down to the priests.

The only time I've seen deacons wear crowns in the Armenian Church is on St. Stephan's Day.  Sometimes what they do on that day is after the liturgy a couple of deacons will wear priests crowns and cense the church as the choir sings a hymn.  I think the crowns symbolize the martyrdom of St. Stephan. 

Is there some meaning or special history behind deacons in the Ethiopian Church wearing crowns?

Sorry, everyone, I didn't want to divert from the subject of the thread.  I'm just really curious about this.   Smiley

What happened to the bishop in Texas is really horrible.  It shows how desperate some people are that they would steal even religious items.  Especially a Bible.  Who would steal a Bible?  I guess it takes all kinds.  People have broken into my church and stolen things off of the altar.  We have a security system now.  It's ridiculous.  I guess we have to pray for thieves who are this desperate.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2008, 11:24:08 AM »

What happened to the bishop in Texas is really horrible.  It shows how desperate some people are that they would steal even religious items.  Especially a Bible.  Who would steal a Bible?  I guess it takes all kinds.  People have broken into my church and stolen things off of the altar.  We have a security system now.  It's ridiculous.  I guess we have to pray for thieves who are this desperate.

We've got a security system at the church since we are in sort of a transitional neighborhood.  We got egged a few weeks ago, had a fence tagged a couple of years ago, and a bullet through a window years more back, but nothing especially serious.  Now the Baptist church across the street, that's another story.  Maybe our predominantly RC pachuco kids have more respect for a Catholic-ish church, who knows.  We have more of a problem with local drunks wandering in during Vespers services.  Not a problem if they are quiet, but loud or falling down, not acceptable.
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 11:31:14 AM »

I did hear once from a priest, on the subject of people stealing from the Church, that if they feel the need to steal from the Church, they probably need it more badly than the Church does (however, sometimes it's not for the reason that they stole it).
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 02:00:11 PM »

I've always found this interesting.  In the Armenian Church, the priest wears the crown.  What I have heard is that it used to be the bishops who wore the crown, like in the EO Church, but during the Crusades the Armenian bishops came to like the Catholic bishops' mitres and started wearing those instead.  They didn't want to waste their old crowns, so they passed them down to the priests.

The only time I've seen deacons wear crowns in the Armenian Church is on St. Stephan's Day.  Sometimes what they do on that day is after the liturgy a couple of deacons will wear priests crowns and cense the church as the choir sings a hymn.  I think the crowns symbolize the martyrdom of St. Stephan. 

Is there some meaning or special history behind deacons in the Ethiopian Church wearing crowns?

Sorry, everyone, I didn't want to divert from the subject of the thread.  I'm just really curious about this.   Smiley

What happened to the bishop in Texas is really horrible.  It shows how desperate some people are that they would steal even religious items.  Especially a Bible.  Who would steal a Bible?  I guess it takes all kinds.  People have broken into my church and stolen things off of the altar.  We have a security system now.  It's ridiculous.  I guess we have to pray for thieves who are this desperate.

The Archdeacon is the right hand of the bishop. This is well preserved and the Diaconate of Ethiopia.

The crown on the deacon represents that he is an extension of the bishop. Most particularly the archdeacon and archbishop.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2008, 06:22:44 PM »

In answer to salpy's question about who would steal bibles, I really don't know. I did however work for a major book store for a few years and every year when we would get our inventory loss numbers as a company religion books and specifically bibles were always in the top three.
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2008, 12:55:41 AM »

I did hear once from a priest, on the subject of people stealing from the Church, that if they feel the need to steal from the Church, they probably need it more badly than the Church does (however, sometimes it's not for the reason that they stole it).

I just hope they don't keep it on the dashboard as an ornament...  Shocked

I believe I've read something from Father Tom (Hopko) that the current Church Attire have only been worn by our Bishops since the Ottoman period. Prior to this, Bishops were dressed differently. I could be wrong, if someone has more information please address.
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2008, 01:25:47 AM »

You're right Timos - these are so much better.   Wink

I know that was probably meant in jest, but given the atmosphere of open discourse that is trying to be engendered here, finding photographs of leaders of western churches in vestments you find distasteful when someone is just bringing up his question about why bishops in the East wear crowns...  Seems a little overboard.
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2008, 04:27:40 PM »

I know that was probably meant in jest, but given the atmosphere of open discourse that is trying to be engendered here, finding photographs of leaders of western churches in vestments you find distasteful when someone is just bringing up his question about why bishops in the East wear crowns...  Seems a little overboard.

In all honesty, the Byzantine Mitre needs to be put on a silver plate carried by a deacon at all times in the Liturgy. Byzantine Patriarchs like Theodoros II of Alexandria, Theophillus of Jerusalem, Patriarch Alexy and the Georgian Catholicos need to take a back seat and show their humility during the service in applying their pastoral care to their faithful. The Crown is just to Gaudy in my opinion.
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2008, 04:37:09 PM »

AND THAT INCLUDES THE RUSSIAN OLD BELIEVER MITRE!  laugh
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2008, 04:46:30 PM »

I just hope they don't keep it on the dashboard as an ornament...  Shocked

I believe I've read something from Father Tom (Hopko) that the current Church Attire have only been worn by our Bishops since the Ottoman period. Prior to this, Bishops were dressed differently. I could be wrong, if someone has more information please address.

Some pieces of clergy vestments are very old (such as the Sticharion - which is descended from the white baptismal garment), some are new-er (if by "newer" one means still over 1000 years old), and some are very recent (by very recent we mean since the Ottoman takeover) - these latter ones are generally the mitre, golden staff, Sakkos, and the Mandia (all for the Bishop, btw) and are from Imperial dress or exarchal dress.  Such signs of authority were acquired by the Bishops because the Ottomans made them ethnarchs - responsible for the Christians in the territory.  This is partially why we call the Bishop "Despotin kai Archierea" (Master and Archpriest) when he really used to be only one (Archpriest); it is partially why the bishop sits on a throne outside the altar instead of his traditional throne behind the altar.  Many changes occurred because of this period of time in the Constantinopolitan Church - and many other Churches adopted the same system, either out of necessity or "keeping up with the Joneses."
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2008, 04:47:06 PM »

Are they 'really' the bishops' crowns, or symbols of the apostles' crowns?  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2008, 05:21:47 PM »

Are they 'really' the bishops' crowns, or symbols of the apostles' crowns?  Wink

I Don't Know, the Bishops have to tell us that. They have to provide accountability to the faithful during the service. It's about trusting our spiritual leaders in each of our diocese as to where our money goes. It maybe vestments or Salary payments. It's much more than a ritualized ceremony dancing around for 2 hrs. It Becomes vain and petty to look good in a Local Diocese and not think about what the faithful are more concerned about which is their local parish and family conflicts. Thats why I really respect the OCA now after the financial scandal they were heavily criticized by a handful of parishes who thought that donating big large sums of money to their HQs in Syosset or wherever could amount to effective administrative practices. People with that much power become crooked and disregard the little people who can't afford thousands of dollars worth of accoutrements. Sorry for ranting
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« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2008, 11:55:05 PM »

Some pieces of clergy vestments are very old (such as the Sticharion - which is descended from the white baptismal garment), some are new-er (if by "newer" one means still over 1000 years old), and some are very recent (by very recent we mean since the Ottoman takeover) - these latter ones are generally the mitre, golden staff, Sakkos, and the Mandia (all for the Bishop, btw) and are from Imperial dress or exarchal dress.  Such signs of authority were acquired by the Bishops because the Ottomans made them ethnarchs - responsible for the Christians in the territory.  This is partially why we call the Bishop "Despotin kai Archierea" (Master and Archpriest) when he really used to be only one (Archpriest); it is partially why the bishop sits on a throne outside the altar instead of his traditional throne behind the altar.  Many changes occurred because of this period of time in the Constantinopolitan Church - and many other Churches adopted the same system, either out of necessity or "keeping up with the Joneses."

Yes, this is pretty much the skinny on what I've read. Excuse me greatly for running off topic here, but why did we continue with this tradition of the ethnarch if it was instilled/imposed/made by secular and/or Islamic Ottomans -- it seems that this could be a root cause to ethnophyletism?
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2008, 12:15:29 AM »

Yes, this is pretty much the skinny on what I've read. Excuse me greatly for running off topic here, but why did we continue with this tradition of the ethnarch if it was instilled/imposed/made by secular and/or Islamic Ottomans -- it seems that this could be a root cause to ethnophyletism?

The tricky aspect of instituting this de-reform would be who would take the lead?

I am familiar with two or three Eastern bishops who generally are more comfortable in their klobluks...
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2008, 06:05:55 PM »

"I believe I've read something from Father Tom (Hopko) that the current Church Attire have only been worn by our Bishops since the Ottoman period. Prior to this, Bishops were dressed differently. I could be wrong, if someone has more information please address."

Before the Ottoman empire bishops dressed the same as priests except they added the omophorion and their phelonions were covered in crosses, the polystavrion.  Originally the sakkos was awarded by the Emperor to Patriarchs of Constantinople as a sign of favor. At some point, before the Ottomans, the Patirarchs simply replaced the phelonion with the sakkos. Of note is that one of the complaints of the Eastern bishops at Florence was that the Latins celebrated Mass proudly wearing the mitre while the Greeks celebrated Liturgy humbly with uncovered heads. So  much for that complaint.

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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2008, 10:29:30 PM »

The tricky aspect of instituting this de-reform would be who would take the lead?

I am familiar with two or three Eastern bishops who generally are more comfortable in their klobluks...

Perhaps it will just happen gradually so that no one made to feel inadequate?
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