Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?

[GiC]

More like a metal stake in the...well, not the side.

It's good to know I'm loved.

[Peter J]

Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?

To all the participants and readers of this thread,

When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit. It seems that there are occasions when the moderators will say just about anything (please see the bottom of page 1, where I quoted posts from both ozgeorge and PetertheAleut) and then when questioned, come back with "Oh, I was talking to lubeltri. He's was already in trouble, so that justifies everything we said about his 'My Church thinks highly of your Church' comment."

That's not conclusive proof of anti-Catholicism, but doesn't it seem suspicious?

[Heracleides]

Nope.  Seems to me you're making a bit of a stretch.  Suffice it to say you're not entirely happy with the moderation and move on. 

[Rowan]

Truth be told, when I saw the statement in question, I knew a Catholic on the board was going to correct it. I would have expected such from them because I know that's what they believe. Of course some Catholics will cite Vatican "endorsement" of Orthodoxy when appropriate...they're Catholic.

[Carole]

That's not conclusive proof of anti-Catholicism, but doesn't it seem suspicious?

My first thought -  It doesn't seem suspicious at all.  I can see, without having to have flow-charts, graphs, and detailed drawings exactly where the moderators of an Orthodox Christian forum are coming from.  Your question has already been answered.

My second thought - Even if there "anti-Catholicism" on this forum (that is a big "if" and I am in no manner saying that I believe it to be a true accusation) ... So what?  It is an Orthodox Christian forum.  A private forum owned by, operated by and run for Orthodox Christians and those seeking more information about Eastern Orthodoxy.  There's no rule that says that they have to give any time whatever to Catholic discussion, let alone be pro-Catholic.

If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules.

[Fr. George]

If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules. 

While I find your perspective refreshingly straight-forward and in touch with reality, I would like to comment that while it may seem useless or "stupid" (as you said) to complain about board moderation, I find the process very helpful.  If we here at OC.net do not periodically examine ourselves and our process of moderation, we become more likely to be stale or counter-productive or overbearing.  Conversations like these, even if they don't amount to any change, do serve at least that one useful purpose: self-examination, a cornerstone of Christian life.

[Rowan]

...And what if Orthodox Christians have a problem with it?

[Veniamin]

When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit. It seems that there are occasions when the moderators will say just about anything (please see the bottom of page 1, where I quoted posts from both ozgeorge and PetertheAleut) and then when questioned, come back with "Oh, I was talking to lubeltri. He's was already in trouble, so that justifies everything we said about his 'My Church thinks highly of your Church' comment."

Except it wasn't a "My Church thinks highly of your Church" comment.  A seeking poster stated that he was uncertain about deciding between RCism and Orthodoxy, especially in light of the possibility of having to renounce the other in doing so.  Lubeltri's response was:

I couldn't do that myself either. That's partly why I became a Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches officially that the EO and OO have grace in their sacraments and are not "graceless heretics." You cannot be an obedient Catholic and call them that.

That is not a statement that "My Church thinks highly of your Church."  (How can it be when he's not even talking to someone who's Orthodox?)  Instead, it's a "With my Church, you can have it both ways.  With their Church, you have to pick one or the other" statement.

[Carole]

...And what if Orthodox Christians have a problem with it?

Then I would guess you have the same options.  Suck it up.  Or leave.

I understand asking for clarification on a rule or the particular manner in which a rule was applied or enforced.  But the wholesale complaint about board moderation should, in an exercise of common courtesy, be done privately. 

I addressed the issue of Catholic guests on an Orthodox forum specifically because the moderators of the board are being accused of "anti-Catholicism" and this thread is in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum. 

But the reality of all message boards is that there is no "freedom of speech."  The person(s) who own and operate the board have the full ability and right to make any rules they wish and to enforce them in whatever manner they deem to be fit and proper.

I own and run a message board for Catholic women, which perhaps gives me a different perspective on this discussion. 

[ozgeorge]

And now we have yet another thread on OCnet devoted to our Catholic friends....
Yeah- seems real anti-Catholic to me......

Get a grip people.

[lubeltri]

I can't help but feeling that there is some hypocrisy here, considering the many-page rant at the CAF (and the crowing over the conversions EO posters there had accomplished) in a thread elsewhere in this forum. I saw the CAF Eastern forum before the deluge---it wasn't pretty.

Venjamin,

My intention was to clarify, not proselytize. The mention of my personal experience was just an aside. If I had known I would be taken that way, I would not have mentioned it. But the statement did beg for clarification.

[Carole]

While I find your perspective refreshingly straight-forward and in touch with reality, I would like to comment that while it may seem useless or "stupid" (as you said) to complain about board moderation, I find the process very helpful.  If we here at OC.net do not periodically examine ourselves and our process of moderation, we become more likely to be stale or counter-productive or overbearing.  Conversations like these, even if they don't amount to any change, do serve at least that one useful purpose: self-examination, a cornerstone of Christian life.

Cleveland wrote the above to me in response to my statement:

If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules.

I would like to apologize for using the word stupid.  It was not a good choice.  Nor was it particularly polite or productive.

I should have said, "Complaining publicly about the board moderation is less than courteous."  But I stand by the rest.  If we (the guests of all religious beliefs) don't like the way the board is run then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking in order to follow the rules and terms of service that we agreed to when we became members of the community.

[lubeltri]

I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

However, I swear that proselytization was not my intention, however it looked. If I wanted to proselytize, I would have come up with something with a little more meat than "the Catholic Church thinks very highly of Orthodoxy."

[ozgeorge]

I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

However, I swear that proselytization was not my intention, however it looked. If I wanted to proselytize, I would have come up with something with a little more meat than "the Catholic Church thinks very highly of Orthodoxy."

Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over? I knew you wouldn't stick to it!
Not exactly a man of our word, are we? So why should I believe you now?

[Jakub]

Yes Carole is correct and I agree this is a Orthodox Forum and it's primary function is to serve those of the Orthodox Faith, so logic would dictate that the majority of the material here will have a Orthodox spin or leaning.

If I see or read something I don't like I'll tend to think what the.... and move on ... that's life

pax etc etc

ps-after a few I'm bullet proof...

[ozgeorge]

Yes Carole is correct and I agree this is a Orthodox Forum and it's primary function is to serve those of the Orthodox Faith, so logic would dictate that the majority of the material here will have a Orthodox spin or leaning.

And it seems to me that for some, the very fact that we are "pro-Orthodox" makes us "anti-Catholic". It may surprise them to know how little time Orthodox Christians actually spend thinking about Catholicism.

[GiC]

I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

It just takes practice, it will become easier with time. You can trust me on that one.

[lubeltri]

Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over? I knew you wouldn't stick to it!
Not exactly a man of our word, are we? So why should I believe you now?

Well, considering that this thread is largely about me, I couldn't resist. Say you were in a room, and in another room you heard a group of people talking about you. You'd want your voice heard.

I didn't exactly throw a hissy fit. This yellow moderated thing just makes posting a pain. Several of my posts haven't even made it here. It would just be easier to post when the scarlet letter is gone.

[ozgeorge]

Well, considering that this thread is largely about me,

Actually, I don't think it is.

Several of my posts haven't even made it here.

Oooooo.....another bit of stretching of truth. It's only your hissy fit post which wasn't approved.

[lubeltri]

It may surprise them to know how little time Orthodox Christians actually spend thinking about Catholicism.

Offline, you mean.  Netodox are another story.

[ozgeorge]

^ Perhaps the Netodox are simply reacting to Roman Catholic proselytizers who come to Orthodox Forums and start talking about themselves and their beliefs incessantly?

[lubeltri]

No. Few Catholics that I know of define themselves as non-EO. On the other hand, I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

It's not surprising. Look at Canada for an analogy. The USA is so much bigger and more visible and consequential (for better or worse), and many Canadians can't help but have some antipathy and define themselves as definitely-not American. It's human nature. Just as Canadians always raise the alarm about becoming Americanized, for centuries now the EO have been arguing over becoming Latinized. Some of these arguments have been catalysts for EO schisms which still persist.

I have seen plenty of this in EO circles, especially among converts. Since the Catholic Church is so much bigger than the EO churches, obviously the ex-Catholic EO are going to be more visible. The global Catholic Church, being the much bigger and far more visible half of the formerly undivided Church, and having millions of Eastern Catholics under it, understandably causes some antipathy in the little-regarded EO churches, most of whose members are concentrated in Eastern Europe.

I can still vividly recall the ugly reactions (among both laity and hierarchy) to John Paul II's visit to Greece a few years ago. Can you imagine the Patriarchs of Moscow or Constantinople getting a reaction like that anywhere in the Catholic world?

Witness also the cottage industry of EO books attacking Catholic beliefs and the very heated arguments among EO leaders and theologians over ecumenism. It's a huge controversy.

[ozgeorge]

No. Few Catholics that I know of define themselves as non-EO. On the other hand, I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

It's not surprising. Look at Canada for an analogy. The USA is so much bigger and more visible and consequential (for better or worse), and many Canadians can't help but have some antipathy and define themselves as definitely-not American. It's human nature. Just as Canadians always raise the alarm about becoming Americanized, for centuries now the EO have been arguing over becoming Latinized. Some of these arguments have been catalysts for EO schisms which still persist.

I have seen plenty of this in EO circles, especially among converts. Since the Catholic Church is so much bigger than the EO churches, obviously the ex-Catholic EO are going to be more visible. The global Catholic Church, being the much bigger and far more visible half of the formerly undivided Church, and having millions of Eastern Catholics under it, understandably causes some antipathy in the little-regarded EO churches, most of whose members are concentrated in Eastern Europe.

I can still vividly recall the ugly reactions (among both laity and hierarchy) to John Paul II's visit to Greece a few years ago. Can you imagine the Patriarchs of Moscow or Constantinople getting a reaction like that anywhere in the Catholic world?

Witness also the cottage industry of EO books attacking Catholic beliefs and the very heated arguments among EO leaders and theologians over ecumenism. It's a huge controversy.

Oh please tell us more about Roman Catholicism and how wicked and uncharitable the Orthodox are because their ecclesiology rejects the Branch Theory.  We're all dying to know....

[ozgeorge]

Offline, you mean.  Netodox are another story.

I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

Can't even stay consistent in two successive posts on the same thread, can you?
I think your view of the Orthodox "anti-Catholicism" is actually a bit of projection.

[Jakub]

Are you both letting this develop into a twosome of a personal nature ?

I have better things to do, the beer is cold and the smoking light is on...pax

[ozgeorge]

Are you both letting this develop into a twosome of a personal nature ?

I don't think lubeltri is being personal when he talks about "EO circles, especially converts", do you?

[lubeltri]

Oh please tell us more about Roman Catholicism and how wicked and uncharitable the Orthodox are because their ecclesiology rejects the Branch Theory.  We're all dying to know....

Why would I when my Church rejects the branch theory as well? 

I never said Catholicism has a monopoly on charity.

I didn't make any judgments, bud (especially harsh ones like "wicked")---just stating realities, however you want to interpret them.

[lubeltri]

BTW, I never mentioned EO ecclesiologies. They are an entirely separate issue from fairly common EO antipathy to the Catholic Church, which does not have its origins in theology but in ideology, ethnicity, nationalism, politics and psychology.

[lubeltri]

George, as an added note, you are completely free to believe what you'd like. It doesn't bother me in the least.



 

God bless. I'll be taking my break now.

[ozgeorge]

I didn't make any judgments, bud (especially harsh ones like "wicked")---just stating realities, however you want to interpret them.

Thanks. I might just use that as my avatar! We certainly don't need infallible pilgrims!

[ozgeorge]

And thanks, lubeltri, for taking the time to show everyone why you were placed on post moderation and proving that OCnet's actions were in fact not "anti-Catholic" but directed at moderating a particular poster for breach of forum rules.

[Carole]

lubeltri,

I think you have, in this thread, succeeded in showing just how patient the moderators and administrators of the forums are.  Were someone to engage in such impolite behaviour (particularly after repeated requests/reminders to abide by the rules) in my home or on my message boards they would have found themselves being asked to leave.

Please, rethink your statements and your behaviour.  At this point you are not only making yourself look short-tempered and hostile but your actions and words reflect on the Catholic Church.  Surely you do not intend to shame your Mother by showing such a lack of common courtesy?

[ozgeorge]

lubeltri,
I have disapproved your latest post because it quotes from the private forum in the public forum. Please observe our forum rules and try again.

[lubeltri]

lubeltri,

I think you have, in this thread, succeeded in showing just how patient the moderators and administrators of the forums are.  Were someone to engage in such impolite behaviour (particularly after repeated requests/reminders to abide by the rules) in my home or on my message boards they would have found themselves being asked to leave.

Please, rethink your statements and your behaviour.  At this point you are not only making yourself look short-tempered and hostile but your actions and words reflect on the Catholic Church.  Surely you do not intend to shame your Mother by showing such a lack of common courtesy?

Carole,

As I calmly explained in my alleged "hissy fit" post which never saw the light of day, I wanted to not post here any longer, at least until the yellow dot was gone, as my sense of unfairness at this scarlet letter (compounded by George acting like he is my priest---see example above) would seriously challenge my ability to be patient and charitable here.

Well, if you see any testiness in me, you know why. And which is why I am taking a (temporary or permanent) break. Sorry to be any trouble.

[lubeltri]

lubeltri,
I have disapproved your latest post because it quotes from the private forum in the public forum. Please observe our forum rules and try again.

You might notice that I no longer have that post and cannot try again. Once I send it off for approval, it's gone. 

[ozgeorge]

You might notice that I no longer have that post and cannot try again. Once I send it off for approval, it's gone. 

Well, if it has valid points and was not simply written in the heat of the moment, then surely you can recall what the point is and rewrite it without quoting the private forums in the public area.

[ozgeorge]

(compounded by George acting like he is my priest---see example above)

I'm a moderator of this forum. Should I not moderate to ensure forum rules and policy are adhered to?

[lubeltri]

So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction.

I was referring to this.

-

Yes, you are moderator. But you could certainly moderate yourself a bit and refrain from the condescending, mocking, sarcastic and baiting comments you sometimes toss out, that's all. I've been offended by them from time to time, and I'm not in a state right now to take them in stride. So I must be off.

[ozgeorge]

I was referring to this.

-

Yes, you are moderator. But you could certainly moderate yourself a bit and refrain from the condescending, mocking, sarcastic and baiting comments you sometimes toss out, that's all. I've been offended by them from time to time, and I'm not in a state right now to take them in stride. So I must be off.

I'm not baiting you lubeltri, I am responding to your posts. It seems as though any time I question your opinion of anything or your version of facts, I'm "baiting" or "being condescending" or "mocking". What do you want from a forum? To be able to state your opinion without it being questioned?
I do seem to bring out the worst in you, don't I? See for example the thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12949.0.html
Perhaps we just have a personal antipathy for each other- whether conscious or not, but believe me, I have on several occassions gone in to bat for you and tried to defend you from having to be moderated (both publically and privately with other moderators), so I can honestly say that even if I do feel antipathy towards you, I sincerely make the effort not to let it interfere with my responsibilities as a moderator.

[Papist]

It's only your hissy fit post which wasn't approved.

Wow. This is extermely becoming of some one who is supposed to be representative of oc.net

[Αριστοκλής]

I'm not baiting you lubeltri, I am responding to your posts. It seems as though any time I question your opinion of anything or your version of facts, I'm "baiting" or "being condescending" or "mocking". What do you want from a forum? To be able to state your opinion without it being questioned?
I do seem to bring out the worst in you, don't I? See for example the thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12949.0.html
Perhaps we just have a personal antipathy for each other- whether conscious or not, but believe me, I have on several occassions gone in to bat for you and tried to defend you from having to be moderated (both publically and privately with other moderators), so I can honestly say that even if I do feel antipathy towards you, I sincerely make the effort not to let it interfere with my responsibilities as a moderator.

^ As a former mod, of that I can attest as far as OzG's input.

[PeterTheAleut]

Offline, you mean.  Netodox are another story.

Ya know, maybe when talking with you we will seem anti-Catholic.  We know that we are speaking to a Roman Catholic and will choose our words based on our audience; when not talking with you or any other RC, we will most likely NOT be talking about Catholicism, because it won't be what our audience wants to talk about.

[lubeltri]

Thanks for the messages. Maybe you are right. Lent is coming. I will cool off. I'll be back on Ash Wednesday (one week from today), but I will be adding something to my Lenten penances: no polemical discussions for me.

May God bless you all until then.

[Peter J]

Carole,

I addressed the issue of Catholic guests on an Orthodox forum specifically because the moderators of the board are being accused of "anti-Catholicism" and this thread is in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum. 

What I said wasn't that they were anti-Catholic, but rather: "When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit."

Now I regret saying even that. (I imagine if someone had said that to me, I would be like "You're starting to wonder? Um ... okay, call me back when you make up your mind.")



lubeltri,

I can't help but feeling that there is some hypocrisy here, considering the many-page rant at the CAF (and the crowing over the conversions EO posters there had accomplished) in a thread elsewhere in this forum. I saw the CAF Eastern forum before the deluge---it wasn't pretty.

I don't claim the moderation of oc.net to be perfect -- and I have even been known (on a rare occasion  ) to complain about it.

But please, don't compare it to the CAF moderation. If the oc.net moderators were at all like the CAF moderators, this thread wouldn't even be allowed to exist, and you'd have been banned (secretly, of course) from the forum. And that's just for starters.

God bless,
Peter.

[Peter J]

ozgeorege,

Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over?

If so, then wouldn't you also figure he'd prefer for you not to announce to everyone that he "had a hissy fit and said [he was] not going to post here, etc."?
-Peter.

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