OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 08:54:26 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?  (Read 12372 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« on: January 26, 2008, 10:13:30 PM »

However, this is the Orthodox-Protestant discussion board. This is a place for dialogue about issues which are specific to Orthodoxy and the various Protestant communions. This is not a place to discuss issues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, or between Catholicism and Protestantism. If you wish to discuss those, you may use the Orthodox-Catholic board, which is designed for just that sort of discussion.

Good point.

There is a difference, though, between giving an opinion or sharing a perspective and proselytizing. It was the opinion of the moderation team that your post above was indeed proselytizing.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on oc-net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
God bless,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 10:25:34 PM »

Good point.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on OC.net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
God bless,
Peter.

Actually, if you look at the logs of individuals who have been banned, the Orthodox posters outnumber the Catholic posters.

Many of our Top Posters have been banned, and are Orthodox. As it is right now, we still have reported posts calling for immediate disciplinary actions against several Catholic posters, which we are doing our best to moderate without having too heavy a hand.

+Fr Chris
Administrator
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 10:33:58 PM »

Good point.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on oc-net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
God bless,
Peter.

In general Anastasios has gone to great length to ensure the freedom of expression for everyone on this board, be they non-christians, protestants, catholics, or we new-calendarist heretics. Wink

Which is why I would assume that saying 'that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell', as have been presented, are allowed. I really don't think it's some grand conspiracy.

As for lubeltri, don't know there, it seemed as though he was just towing the party line. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,657


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 10:51:17 PM »

In all fairness, PJ, if you look through the archives, you'll find instances of Orthodox members who were moderated for being too harsh or insulting toward Catholics.  I'm thinking of one Orthodox member in particular who was regularly warned and put on moderation for that.  He was eventually banned, although it may have been for a different reason. 
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 11:51:43 AM »

Hi all,

First, I want to apologize for using the phrase "anti-Catholic", which seems to have led to some confusion. (I.e. when I mentioned "'Catholic' statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics", without giving sufficient thought to the connotation that might have.) I didn't mean to suggest that the moderation of oc-net is anti-Catholic.

In general Anastasios has gone to great length to ensure the freedom of expression for everyone on this board, be they non-christians, protestants, catholics, or we new-calendarist heretics. Wink

Which is why I would assume that saying 'that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell', as have been presented, are allowed. I really don't think it's some grand conspiracy.

Yes, but what sometimes (not always, certainly) happens is that the Orthodox on the board will respond with "Ah! So-and-so said it. That proves that it's The Catholic Position."

Actually, if you look at the logs of individuals who have been banned, the Orthodox posters outnumber the Catholic posters.

Many of our Top Posters have been banned, and are Orthodox. As it is right now, we still have reported posts calling for immediate disciplinary actions against several Catholic posters, which we are doing our best to moderate without having too heavy a hand.

+Fr Chris
Administrator


I think you're misunderstanding me a little. I'm not suggesting that there's a double standard between Orthodox posters and Catholic posters. Rather I'm wondering whether there's a (slight) double standard between, on the one hand, Catholics who post reasonable presentations of what the Catholic Church teaches, and, on the other hand, Catholics who post anti-Orthodox, triumphalistic, or otherwise unreasonable statements.

For example, supposing for the sake of argument that you guys are right and lubeltri's post was proselytizing, I really have to wonder whether it was any worse than (or even as bad as), e.g., saying that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile". But nobody brought up "proselytizing" in that case.

God bless,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 12:18:32 PM »

I think you're misunderstanding me a little. I'm not suggesting that there's a double standard between Orthodox posters and Catholic posters. Rather I'm wondering whether there's a (slight) double standard between, on the one hand, Catholics who post reasonable presentations of what the Catholic Church teaches, and, on the other hand, Catholics who post anti-Orthodox, triumphalistic, or otherwise unreasonable statements.

PJ,
I think you need to seperate the issues here.
Firstly, it seems as if you think that Papist's views are seen as "prosyletizing"- they're not.
Secondly, the forum rule against prosyletizing was not put in place because of Catholics, but because of the behaviour early on of some Orthodox (one "traditionalist" group in particular). The rule applies accross the board to everyone.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 12:21:00 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 01:14:39 PM »

I'm glad you folks are having this discussion - openness is what we're shooting for here, and it is definitely key to having a good site.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »

Yes, but what sometimes (not always, certainly) happens is that the Orthodox on the board will respond with "Ah! So-and-so said it. That proves that it's The Catholic Position."

It's all relative to what you can convince the other person to believe, that's why rhetoric is an art and not a science; and why I keep coming back here. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 06:10:32 PM »

it seems as if you think that Papist's views are seen as "prosyletizing"

Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 06:24:21 PM »

Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.

Well, considering that lubeltri made that statement in direct response to someone who said he couldn't decide between Orthodoxy and RCism, it's not to hard to arrive at that conclusion.  Context matters.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 06:29:21 PM »

Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.

Oh, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding.
But are you suggesting that Papist's posts should be seen as prosyletizing? Because I really don't think they are.
lubeltri, on the other hand, has been spoken to on several occasions by various moderators about his occasional posting style which is pretty obviously proselytizing dating back to September last year. I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 06:30:06 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 08:36:09 PM »

Oh, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding.
But are you suggesting that Papist's posts should be seen as prosyletizing? Because I really don't think they are.
lubeltri, on the other hand, has been spoken to on several occasions by various moderators about his occasional posting style which is pretty obviously proselytizing dating back to September last year. I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".

Another part of the issue that we need to consider is that lubeltri didn't limit his advocacy of the Roman Catholic tradition to the Orthodox-Catholic board, or even to the more general Orthodox-Other Christian board, where this may actually be permitted.  Look at his posting history, and you'll see some of his subtle and not-so-subtle pro-Catholic pitches drawing complaints and warnings even in the Convert Issues and Faith Issues sections, not to mention the Orthodox-Protestant board of which Veniamin spoke.  (FWIW, the post to which ozgeorge linked us is located in the Faith board.)
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 09:13:24 PM »

I do admit to making mistakes in the past, but in this instance I did not intend at all to run afoul of forum rules. I saw a misunderstanding, and I wanted to clarify/correct it. That was my only intention.

"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

I just think I'd rather not participate here if I am to wear this yellow-hued scarlet letter, which I think is undeserved. If my intention was misunderstood, I apologize.
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 09:13:26 PM »

It doesn't mean I won't be back. But perhaps I need a break---that yellow circle is testing my charity, and it might be best to wait till it goes away.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 09:22:22 PM »

"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 09:32:21 PM »

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

Of course, George, we say similar things relative to Rome; I think it's more a sign of the civility we have, thank God, gained from the ecumenical movement than an attempt at proselytizing. In large part, this was the essence of the Balamand Agreement, which was approved not only by the Vatican but also by our own Most Holy Synod of the Great Church of Christ:

'15. While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remains secure, in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation. There is a question of achieving together the will of Christ for His own and the design of God for His Church by means of a common quest by the Churches for a full accord on the content of the faith and its implications. This effort is being carried on in the current theological dialogue. The present document is a necessary stage in this dialogue.'

Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2008, 09:34:43 PM »

It may surprise you to know, GIC, that the Balamand Agreement (which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway) does not actually form part of the OCnet forum rules. Wink
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2008, 09:38:05 PM »

It may surprise you to know, GIC, that the Balamand Agreement (which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway) does not actually form part of the OCnet forum rules. Wink

Just thought I'd let you know what our Patriarch and his Synod had to say on the matter. Wink

I never claimed that His All-Holiness had jurisdiction over OC.net...just over the Orthodox faithful. Grin
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 09:41:26 PM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2008, 09:46:49 PM »

(which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway)

Ah, so now the efficacy of the theological opinions of our Synod is dependent on the actions of the Church of Rome? Grin
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 09:53:22 PM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2008, 09:48:30 PM »

That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

Well, all I can say is that it was not my intent. At the time I posted, I did not know it was in the Protestant board (arriving at the thread via Recent Posts section). I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2008, 09:51:34 PM »

Well, all I can say is that it was not my intent. At the time I posted, I did not know it was in the Protestant board (arriving at the thread via Recent Posts section). I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.

Do you remember a similar thing which happened in a post of yours in the Covert forum? Do you remember me pm-ing you about it after I had to split your post from the thread and move it to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion? Do you remember promising me you would be more careful in future?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2008, 09:55:10 PM »

Do you remember a similar thing which happened in a post of yours in the Covert forum? Do you remember me pm-ing you about it after I had to split your post from the thread and move it to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion? Do you remember promising me you would be more careful in future?

Yes, I remember. I guess I won't use the Recent Posts feature anymore, to make sure.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2008, 10:02:15 PM »

Yes, I remember.

So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction. Wink
Post Moderation is self limiting in time. After a while, you will drop down to "Warned" and then that will go as well.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2008, 10:18:00 PM »

I never claimed that His All-Holiness had jurisdiction over OC.net...just over the Orthodox faithful. Grin
And even that's debatable, but that's something we've already debated elsewhere. Wink
Logged
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2008, 10:25:52 PM »

So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction. Wink
Post Moderation is self limiting in time. After a while, you will drop down to "Warned" and then that will go as well.


So if I just don't post for a while, it will eventually go away?
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2008, 10:28:54 PM »

So if I just don't post for a while, it will eventually go away?
It makes no difference whether you post or don't post. The time limit is in numbers of days, not amount of activity.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2008, 10:43:25 PM »

Ozgeorge is right...eventually your 'badge' will go away.

However, it will be replaced with an even higher level of discipline if you continue to ignore what we ask you to do.

+Fr Chris
Administrator
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2008, 11:02:00 PM »

And even that's debatable, but that's something we've already debated elsewhere. Wink

Oh, I'm aware that that was a controversial statement. Wink

But ozgeorge is under the Oecumenical Throne, so my point was valid in any case.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2008, 11:05:19 PM »

I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.

The problem is in your pserspective lubeltri, the value of symbols is relative to cultural and philosophical norms. You need to learn to buck these social norms and accept a 'scarlet letter', be it a red 'A' or a yellow dot as a badge of honour.

Heck, one of the greatest posters of all time on this board, the venerable TomS, got a red one. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2008, 11:53:03 PM »

"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

ozgeorge,

I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from -- at least in a general way. I strongly dislike the "We're both right, except that you're wrong" type of rhetoric, and I have to admit that I see a lot of that among my fellow Catholics. (I mentioned on a recent thread, though I don't recall which one, that I don't blame Orthodox for disliking "The Filioque: What is at stake?" by Cardinal Dulles.) Certainly you're right to be cautious with regard to such rhetoric.

But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". Huh

God bless,
Peter.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2008, 12:06:43 AM »

But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". Huh
Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2008, 02:18:46 AM »

Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...

Were the others part of the Old Calendarist movement? In general they're the only ones that find ecumenism offensive.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2008, 03:26:29 AM »

Were the others part of the Old Calendarist movement? In general they're the only ones that find ecumenism offensive.
The Old Calendarist movement, with its objection to ecumenism, has nothing to do with this discussion of an RC poster fishing in our pond.  If you're trying to sidetrack this discussion by stirring things up a bit, you might want to do that somewhere else.
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2008, 03:28:36 AM »

The Old Calendarist movement, with its objection to ecumenism, has nothing to do with this discussion of an RC poster fishing in our pond.  If you're trying to sidetrack this discussion by stirring things up a bit, you might want to do that somewhere else.

Nah, I figure I'll get into more trouble if I do it here. Wink

You didn't really expect me to brush off censorship as though it were no big deal did you? Surely you've been around here longer than that.

I just always figured that the Orthodox Church was strong enough to survive open discussions with those of other faiths; but I'm probably wrong, without censorship and propaganda the Church would probably fall to pieces. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 03:38:40 AM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
trifecta
Fairly newly illumined
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 93



« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2008, 06:26:38 AM »

Glad that lubeltri is back! 

As one who often posts on a fundamentalist board,
I know how he feels.

I think we should give grace to those who don't agree
with the Orthodox faith but are generally polite.

We all deserve the privilege of being cranky now and then.
 Smiley

My 2 one hundredths of a dollar.

Logged

born Catholic, became a Protestant, now and hereafter an Orthodox Christian
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2008, 02:24:25 PM »

RC poster fishing in our pond.

Really ? Never seen that no fishing sign, I've been doing it for years, guess I better change that dern home made fly and git some from the brothers out Wyoming way... Cool

Pax etc etc


ps-if a license is needed do I get a senior/aarp discount ?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 02:27:48 PM by Jakub » Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2008, 03:23:07 PM »

Really ? Never seen that no fishing sign, I've been doing it for years, guess I better change that dern home made fly and git some from the brothers out Wyoming way... Cool

That's cause there is no "No Fishing" sign... We'll let you stick around, as long as you're willing to pay the exorbitant fees and tributes!

ps-if a license is needed do I get a senior/aarp discount ? 

And a long-time member discount.  That should take the fee down from $1,000 USD to $999.98 USD.  One penny for the AARP, one for the long-time member; we had to give you your $0.02 back so you could give it in a thread somewhere! Wink
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2008, 05:28:38 PM »

I split and moved the little discussion about St. Gregory that wasn't directly referring to the style of OC.net's moderation to this thread:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14322.msg205899.html

-- Friul
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 05:29:55 PM by Friul » Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2008, 05:31:41 PM »

cleveland,

I shall let all know that you are a charitable saint ...  Smiley

james



Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2008, 08:44:48 PM »

Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2008, 08:54:06 PM »

Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.

Eh, keep pushing for the explination...I'd like to hear it too. Wink

Of course, you can always expect me to be a thron in the side whenever the issue of censorship comes up. Grin

(And most other times as well. Wink)
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »

Eh, keep pushing for the explination...I'd like to hear it too. Wink

Of course, you can always expect me to be a thron in the side whenever the issue of censorship comes up. Grin

(And most other times as well. Wink)

More like a metal stake in the...well, not the side. Cheesy
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2008, 09:12:27 PM »

Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.

I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2008, 10:10:52 PM »

"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,128



« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2008, 10:14:05 PM »

But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". Huh
Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.146 seconds with 73 queries.