Author Topic: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?  (Read 14400 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« on: January 26, 2008, 10:13:30 PM »
However, this is the Orthodox-Protestant discussion board. This is a place for dialogue about issues which are specific to Orthodoxy and the various Protestant communions. This is not a place to discuss issues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, or between Catholicism and Protestantism. If you wish to discuss those, you may use the Orthodox-Catholic board, which is designed for just that sort of discussion.

Good point.

There is a difference, though, between giving an opinion or sharing a perspective and proselytizing. It was the opinion of the moderation team that your post above was indeed proselytizing.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on oc-net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
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Peter.
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 10:25:34 PM »
Good point.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on OC.net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
God bless,
Peter.

Actually, if you look at the logs of individuals who have been banned, the Orthodox posters outnumber the Catholic posters.

Many of our Top Posters have been banned, and are Orthodox. As it is right now, we still have reported posts calling for immediate disciplinary actions against several Catholic posters, which we are doing our best to moderate without having too heavy a hand.

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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 10:33:58 PM »
Good point.

I don't want to enter into the argument about whether what lubeltri said is proselytism or not. But I do want to ask a different question: Why does it seem that some Catholic posters, such as lubeltri, get significantly less leeway on oc-net than certain other Catholic posters -- particularly the ultra-Latin, ultra-montane Catholics who take their own opinions and present them as "the Catholic position"?

To put my question another way, don't you think it's possible that you and the other moderators would have been willing to let lubeltri's post slide if he had said that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell, or any other such "Catholic" statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
God bless,
Peter.

In general Anastasios has gone to great length to ensure the freedom of expression for everyone on this board, be they non-christians, protestants, catholics, or we new-calendarist heretics. ;)

Which is why I would assume that saying 'that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell', as have been presented, are allowed. I really don't think it's some grand conspiracy.

As for lubeltri, don't know there, it seemed as though he was just towing the party line. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 10:51:17 PM »
In all fairness, PJ, if you look through the archives, you'll find instances of Orthodox members who were moderated for being too harsh or insulting toward Catholics.  I'm thinking of one Orthodox member in particular who was regularly warned and put on moderation for that.  He was eventually banned, although it may have been for a different reason. 

Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 11:51:43 AM »
Hi all,

First, I want to apologize for using the phrase "anti-Catholic", which seems to have led to some confusion. (I.e. when I mentioned "'Catholic' statements which make such wonderful fodder for anti-Catholic polemics", without giving sufficient thought to the connotation that might have.) I didn't mean to suggest that the moderation of oc-net is anti-Catholic.

In general Anastasios has gone to great length to ensure the freedom of expression for everyone on this board, be they non-christians, protestants, catholics, or we new-calendarist heretics. ;)

Which is why I would assume that saying 'that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile", or that all ECs need to be Latinized, or that the pope is always right, or that all non-Catholics are going to hell', as have been presented, are allowed. I really don't think it's some grand conspiracy.

Yes, but what sometimes (not always, certainly) happens is that the Orthodox on the board will respond with "Ah! So-and-so said it. That proves that it's The Catholic Position."

Actually, if you look at the logs of individuals who have been banned, the Orthodox posters outnumber the Catholic posters.

Many of our Top Posters have been banned, and are Orthodox. As it is right now, we still have reported posts calling for immediate disciplinary actions against several Catholic posters, which we are doing our best to moderate without having too heavy a hand.

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I think you're misunderstanding me a little. I'm not suggesting that there's a double standard between Orthodox posters and Catholic posters. Rather I'm wondering whether there's a (slight) double standard between, on the one hand, Catholics who post reasonable presentations of what the Catholic Church teaches, and, on the other hand, Catholics who post anti-Orthodox, triumphalistic, or otherwise unreasonable statements.

For example, supposing for the sake of argument that you guys are right and lubeltri's post was proselytizing, I really have to wonder whether it was any worse than (or even as bad as), e.g., saying that St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is "vile". But nobody brought up "proselytizing" in that case.

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Peter.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2008, 12:18:32 PM »
I think you're misunderstanding me a little. I'm not suggesting that there's a double standard between Orthodox posters and Catholic posters. Rather I'm wondering whether there's a (slight) double standard between, on the one hand, Catholics who post reasonable presentations of what the Catholic Church teaches, and, on the other hand, Catholics who post anti-Orthodox, triumphalistic, or otherwise unreasonable statements.

PJ,
I think you need to seperate the issues here.
Firstly, it seems as if you think that Papist's views are seen as "prosyletizing"- they're not.
Secondly, the forum rule against prosyletizing was not put in place because of Catholics, but because of the behaviour early on of some Orthodox (one "traditionalist" group in particular). The rule applies accross the board to everyone.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 12:21:00 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2008, 01:14:39 PM »
I'm glad you folks are having this discussion - openness is what we're shooting for here, and it is definitely key to having a good site.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »
Yes, but what sometimes (not always, certainly) happens is that the Orthodox on the board will respond with "Ah! So-and-so said it. That proves that it's The Catholic Position."

It's all relative to what you can convince the other person to believe, that's why rhetoric is an art and not a science; and why I keep coming back here. ;)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2008, 06:10:32 PM »
it seems as if you think that Papist's views are seen as "prosyletizing"

Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2008, 06:24:21 PM »
Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.

Well, considering that lubeltri made that statement in direct response to someone who said he couldn't decide between Orthodoxy and RCism, it's not to hard to arrive at that conclusion.  Context matters.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2008, 06:29:21 PM »
Nope, just the opposite. The point I was making was that Papist's saying "St. Greogry Palamas' philosophy is vile" isn't seen as proselytizing, and yet lubeltri's saying "Here's one thing I think is better about Catholicism than Orthodoxy ... " is seen as proselytizing.

Oh, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding.
But are you suggesting that Papist's posts should be seen as prosyletizing? Because I really don't think they are.
lubeltri, on the other hand, has been spoken to on several occasions by various moderators about his occasional posting style which is pretty obviously proselytizing dating back to September last year. I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 06:30:06 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 08:36:09 PM »
Oh, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding.
But are you suggesting that Papist's posts should be seen as prosyletizing? Because I really don't think they are.
lubeltri, on the other hand, has been spoken to on several occasions by various moderators about his occasional posting style which is pretty obviously proselytizing dating back to September last year. I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".

Another part of the issue that we need to consider is that lubeltri didn't limit his advocacy of the Roman Catholic tradition to the Orthodox-Catholic board, or even to the more general Orthodox-Other Christian board, where this may actually be permitted.  Look at his posting history, and you'll see some of his subtle and not-so-subtle pro-Catholic pitches drawing complaints and warnings even in the Convert Issues and Faith Issues sections, not to mention the Orthodox-Protestant board of which Veniamin spoke.  (FWIW, the post to which ozgeorge linked us is located in the Faith board.)
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 09:13:24 PM »
I do admit to making mistakes in the past, but in this instance I did not intend at all to run afoul of forum rules. I saw a misunderstanding, and I wanted to clarify/correct it. That was my only intention.

"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

I just think I'd rather not participate here if I am to wear this yellow-hued scarlet letter, which I think is undeserved. If my intention was misunderstood, I apologize.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 09:13:26 PM »
It doesn't mean I won't be back. But perhaps I need a break---that yellow circle is testing my charity, and it might be best to wait till it goes away.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 09:22:22 PM »
"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 09:32:21 PM »
Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

Of course, George, we say similar things relative to Rome; I think it's more a sign of the civility we have, thank God, gained from the ecumenical movement than an attempt at proselytizing. In large part, this was the essence of the Balamand Agreement, which was approved not only by the Vatican but also by our own Most Holy Synod of the Great Church of Christ:

'15. While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remains secure, in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation. There is a question of achieving together the will of Christ for His own and the design of God for His Church by means of a common quest by the Churches for a full accord on the content of the faith and its implications. This effort is being carried on in the current theological dialogue. The present document is a necessary stage in this dialogue.'

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2008, 09:34:43 PM »
It may surprise you to know, GIC, that the Balamand Agreement (which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway) does not actually form part of the OCnet forum rules. ;)
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2008, 09:38:05 PM »
It may surprise you to know, GIC, that the Balamand Agreement (which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway) does not actually form part of the OCnet forum rules. ;)

Just thought I'd let you know what our Patriarch and his Synod had to say on the matter. ;)

I never claimed that His All-Holiness had jurisdiction over OC.net...just over the Orthodox faithful. ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 09:41:26 PM by greekischristian »
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2008, 09:46:49 PM »
(which the RC Church has not adhered to anyway)

Ah, so now the efficacy of the theological opinions of our Synod is dependent on the actions of the Church of Rome? ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 09:53:22 PM by greekischristian »
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2008, 09:48:30 PM »
That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

Well, all I can say is that it was not my intent. At the time I posted, I did not know it was in the Protestant board (arriving at the thread via Recent Posts section). I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2008, 09:51:34 PM »
Well, all I can say is that it was not my intent. At the time I posted, I did not know it was in the Protestant board (arriving at the thread via Recent Posts section). I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.

Do you remember a similar thing which happened in a post of yours in the Covert forum? Do you remember me pm-ing you about it after I had to split your post from the thread and move it to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion? Do you remember promising me you would be more careful in future?
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2008, 09:55:10 PM »
Do you remember a similar thing which happened in a post of yours in the Covert forum? Do you remember me pm-ing you about it after I had to split your post from the thread and move it to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion? Do you remember promising me you would be more careful in future?

Yes, I remember. I guess I won't use the Recent Posts feature anymore, to make sure.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2008, 10:02:15 PM »
Yes, I remember.

So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction. ;)
Post Moderation is self limiting in time. After a while, you will drop down to "Warned" and then that will go as well.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2008, 10:18:00 PM »
I never claimed that His All-Holiness had jurisdiction over OC.net...just over the Orthodox faithful. ;D
And even that's debatable, but that's something we've already debated elsewhere. ;)
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2008, 10:25:52 PM »
So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction. ;)
Post Moderation is self limiting in time. After a while, you will drop down to "Warned" and then that will go as well.


So if I just don't post for a while, it will eventually go away?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2008, 10:28:54 PM »
So if I just don't post for a while, it will eventually go away?
It makes no difference whether you post or don't post. The time limit is in numbers of days, not amount of activity.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2008, 10:43:25 PM »
Ozgeorge is right...eventually your 'badge' will go away.

However, it will be replaced with an even higher level of discipline if you continue to ignore what we ask you to do.

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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2008, 11:02:00 PM »
And even that's debatable, but that's something we've already debated elsewhere. ;)

Oh, I'm aware that that was a controversial statement. ;)

But ozgeorge is under the Oecumenical Throne, so my point was valid in any case.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2008, 11:05:19 PM »
I would gladly withdraw my comment---I just think the yellow scarlet letter was harsh.

The problem is in your pserspective lubeltri, the value of symbols is relative to cultural and philosophical norms. You need to learn to buck these social norms and accept a 'scarlet letter', be it a red 'A' or a yellow dot as a badge of honour.

Heck, one of the greatest posters of all time on this board, the venerable TomS, got a red one. ;)
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2008, 11:53:03 PM »
"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.

ozgeorge,

I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from -- at least in a general way. I strongly dislike the "We're both right, except that you're wrong" type of rhetoric, and I have to admit that I see a lot of that among my fellow Catholics. (I mentioned on a recent thread, though I don't recall which one, that I don't blame Orthodox for disliking "The Filioque: What is at stake?" by Cardinal Dulles.) Certainly you're right to be cautious with regard to such rhetoric.

But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". ???

God bless,
Peter.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2008, 12:06:43 AM »
But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". ???
Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2008, 02:18:46 AM »
Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...

Were the others part of the Old Calendarist movement? In general they're the only ones that find ecumenism offensive.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2008, 03:26:29 AM »
Were the others part of the Old Calendarist movement? In general they're the only ones that find ecumenism offensive.
The Old Calendarist movement, with its objection to ecumenism, has nothing to do with this discussion of an RC poster fishing in our pond.  If you're trying to sidetrack this discussion by stirring things up a bit, you might want to do that somewhere else.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2008, 03:28:36 AM »
The Old Calendarist movement, with its objection to ecumenism, has nothing to do with this discussion of an RC poster fishing in our pond.  If you're trying to sidetrack this discussion by stirring things up a bit, you might want to do that somewhere else.

Nah, I figure I'll get into more trouble if I do it here. ;)

You didn't really expect me to brush off censorship as though it were no big deal did you? Surely you've been around here longer than that.

I just always figured that the Orthodox Church was strong enough to survive open discussions with those of other faiths; but I'm probably wrong, without censorship and propaganda the Church would probably fall to pieces. ::)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 03:38:40 AM by greekischristian »
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Offline trifecta

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2008, 06:26:38 AM »
Glad that lubeltri is back! 

As one who often posts on a fundamentalist board,
I know how he feels.

I think we should give grace to those who don't agree
with the Orthodox faith but are generally polite.

We all deserve the privilege of being cranky now and then.
 :)

My 2 one hundredths of a dollar.

born Catholic, became a Protestant, now and hereafter an Orthodox Christian

Offline Jakub

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2008, 02:24:25 PM »
RC poster fishing in our pond.

Really ? Never seen that no fishing sign, I've been doing it for years, guess I better change that dern home made fly and git some from the brothers out Wyoming way... 8)

Pax etc etc


ps-if a license is needed do I get a senior/aarp discount ?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 02:27:48 PM by Jakub »
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2008, 03:23:07 PM »
Really ? Never seen that no fishing sign, I've been doing it for years, guess I better change that dern home made fly and git some from the brothers out Wyoming way... 8)

That's cause there is no "No Fishing" sign... We'll let you stick around, as long as you're willing to pay the exorbitant fees and tributes!

ps-if a license is needed do I get a senior/aarp discount ? 

And a long-time member discount.  That should take the fee down from $1,000 USD to $999.98 USD.  One penny for the AARP, one for the long-time member; we had to give you your $0.02 back so you could give it in a thread somewhere! ;)
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2008, 05:28:38 PM »
I split and moved the little discussion about St. Gregory that wasn't directly referring to the style of OC.net's moderation to this thread:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14322.msg205899.html

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« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 05:29:55 PM by Friul »
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Offline Jakub

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2008, 05:31:41 PM »
cleveland,

I shall let all know that you are a charitable saint ...  :)

james



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Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2008, 08:44:48 PM »
Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2008, 08:54:06 PM »
Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.

Eh, keep pushing for the explination...I'd like to hear it too. ;)

Of course, you can always expect me to be a thron in the side whenever the issue of censorship comes up. ;D

(And most other times as well. ;))
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »
Eh, keep pushing for the explination...I'd like to hear it too. ;)

Of course, you can always expect me to be a thron in the side whenever the issue of censorship comes up. ;D

(And most other times as well. ;))

More like a metal stake in the...well, not the side. :D
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2008, 09:12:27 PM »
Truthfully, I still don't understand why someone simply saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church" is proselytizing, and it doesn't seem like anyone is willing to explain it to me. But since two (at least) of the moderators feel that it is, I guess I'll just have to be more careful with my posts than I have been heretofore.

I think the mistake you are making is assuming that one particular post has landed lubeltri in trouble. The fact is, warnings have been repeatedly issued. Placing a poster on moderated posts is not something we do lightly. It comes after repeated public and private warnings. I personally have gone in to bat for lubeltri, and in fact, I even temporarily locked a thread in preference to placing him on post moderation (see this Moderation Post: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12854.msg177342.html#msg177342 ).
At some point, moderators have to draw the line and say "no more".

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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2008, 10:10:52 PM »
"My Church thinks highly of your Church" was basically my message---not exactly the kind of thing a proselytizer usually says!

Do you see how, at best, that might be seen as patronizing, and at worst, as an indication that you think the only credibility the Orthodox Church can have is if the Vatican endorses it?
Basically, you are telling an inquirer on an Orthodox-Protestant forum that they may choose Orthodoxy, because it is better than Protestantism as far as the only real arbiter of truth (the Vatican) is concerned. That's proselytism- whether consciously intended or not.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2008, 10:14:05 PM »
But moving from the general to the specific, i.e. the post that you're responding to, I must say that your above statements strike me as cynical rather than simply cautious: I just don't see how you could infer so much just from someone saying "My Church thinks highly of your Church". ???
Which may hold water, if ozgeorge was the ONLY person who inferred this and saw this as offensive...
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2008, 11:54:02 PM »
More like a metal stake in the...well, not the side. :D

It's good to know I'm loved. ;D
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2008, 11:46:34 AM »
Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?

To all the participants and readers of this thread,

When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit. It seems that there are occasions when the moderators will say just about anything (please see the bottom of page 1, where I quoted posts from both ozgeorge and PetertheAleut) and then when questioned, come back with "Oh, I was talking to lubeltri. He's was already in trouble, so that justifies everything we said about his 'My Church thinks highly of your Church' comment."

That's not conclusive proof of anti-Catholicism, but doesn't it seem suspicious?
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Heracleides

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2008, 12:10:21 PM »
Nope.  Seems to me you're making a bit of a stretch.  Suffice it to say you're not entirely happy with the moderation and move on.  :'(
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Offline Rowan

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2008, 01:58:15 PM »
Truth be told, when I saw the statement in question, I knew a Catholic on the board was going to correct it. I would have expected such from them because I know that's what they believe. Of course some Catholics will cite Vatican "endorsement" of Orthodoxy when appropriate...they're Catholic.
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Offline Carole

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2008, 02:49:17 PM »
That's not conclusive proof of anti-Catholicism, but doesn't it seem suspicious?

My first thought -  It doesn't seem suspicious at all.  I can see, without having to have flow-charts, graphs, and detailed drawings exactly where the moderators of an Orthodox Christian forum are coming from.  Your question has already been answered.

My second thought - Even if there "anti-Catholicism" on this forum (that is a big "if" and I am in no manner saying that I believe it to be a true accusation) ... So what?  It is an Orthodox Christian forum.  A private forum owned by, operated by and run for Orthodox Christians and those seeking more information about Eastern Orthodoxy.  There's no rule that says that they have to give any time whatever to Catholic discussion, let alone be pro-Catholic.

If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules.
Carole

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2008, 02:59:48 PM »
If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules. 

While I find your perspective refreshingly straight-forward and in touch with reality, I would like to comment that while it may seem useless or "stupid" (as you said) to complain about board moderation, I find the process very helpful.  If we here at OC.net do not periodically examine ourselves and our process of moderation, we become more likely to be stale or counter-productive or overbearing.  Conversations like these, even if they don't amount to any change, do serve at least that one useful purpose: self-examination, a cornerstone of Christian life.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline Rowan

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2008, 03:01:58 PM »
...And what if Orthodox Christians have a problem with it?
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2008, 03:03:17 PM »
When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit. It seems that there are occasions when the moderators will say just about anything (please see the bottom of page 1, where I quoted posts from both ozgeorge and PetertheAleut) and then when questioned, come back with "Oh, I was talking to lubeltri. He's was already in trouble, so that justifies everything we said about his 'My Church thinks highly of your Church' comment."

Except it wasn't a "My Church thinks highly of your Church" comment.  A seeking poster stated that he was uncertain about deciding between RCism and Orthodoxy, especially in light of the possibility of having to renounce the other in doing so.  Lubeltri's response was:

Quote
I couldn't do that myself either. That's partly why I became a Catholic. The Catholic Church teaches officially that the EO and OO have grace in their sacraments and are not "graceless heretics." You cannot be an obedient Catholic and call them that.

That is not a statement that "My Church thinks highly of your Church."  (How can it be when he's not even talking to someone who's Orthodox?)  Instead, it's a "With my Church, you can have it both ways.  With their Church, you have to pick one or the other" statement.
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Offline Carole

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2008, 03:11:19 PM »
...And what if Orthodox Christians have a problem with it?

Then I would guess you have the same options.  Suck it up.  Or leave.

I understand asking for clarification on a rule or the particular manner in which a rule was applied or enforced.  But the wholesale complaint about board moderation should, in an exercise of common courtesy, be done privately. 

I addressed the issue of Catholic guests on an Orthodox forum specifically because the moderators of the board are being accused of "anti-Catholicism" and this thread is in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum. 

But the reality of all message boards is that there is no "freedom of speech."  The person(s) who own and operate the board have the full ability and right to make any rules they wish and to enforce them in whatever manner they deem to be fit and proper.

I own and run a message board for Catholic women, which perhaps gives me a different perspective on this discussion. 
Carole

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2008, 03:16:16 PM »
And now we have yet another thread on OCnet devoted to our Catholic friends....
Yeah- seems real anti-Catholic to me...... ::)

Get a grip people.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2008, 03:20:33 PM »
I can't help but feeling that there is some hypocrisy here, considering the many-page rant at the CAF (and the crowing over the conversions EO posters there had accomplished) in a thread elsewhere in this forum. I saw the CAF Eastern forum before the deluge---it wasn't pretty.

Venjamin,

My intention was to clarify, not proselytize. The mention of my personal experience was just an aside. If I had known I would be taken that way, I would not have mentioned it. But the statement did beg for clarification.

Offline Carole

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2008, 03:23:56 PM »
While I find your perspective refreshingly straight-forward and in touch with reality, I would like to comment that while it may seem useless or "stupid" (as you said) to complain about board moderation, I find the process very helpful.  If we here at OC.net do not periodically examine ourselves and our process of moderation, we become more likely to be stale or counter-productive or overbearing.  Conversations like these, even if they don't amount to any change, do serve at least that one useful purpose: self-examination, a cornerstone of Christian life.

Cleveland wrote the above to me in response to my statement:

Quote
If we, as Catholics, find the atmosphere here is not to our liking ... guess what?  We need to find another place to read and post.  We're guests here.  Complaining about the board moderation is stupid.  If we don't like it then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking.  He who pays the bills makes the rules.

I would like to apologize for using the word stupid.  It was not a good choice.  Nor was it particularly polite or productive.

I should have said, "Complaining publicly about the board moderation is less than courteous."  But I stand by the rest.  If we (the guests of all religious beliefs) don't like the way the board is run then we should either leave or adjust our own thinking in order to follow the rules and terms of service that we agreed to when we became members of the community.
Carole

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2008, 03:51:26 PM »
I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

However, I swear that proselytization was not my intention, however it looked. If I wanted to proselytize, I would have come up with something with a little more meat than "the Catholic Church thinks very highly of Orthodoxy."

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2008, 03:55:24 PM »
I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

However, I swear that proselytization was not my intention, however it looked. If I wanted to proselytize, I would have come up with something with a little more meat than "the Catholic Church thinks very highly of Orthodoxy."
Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over? I knew you wouldn't stick to it! ;)
Not exactly a man of our word, are we? So why should I believe you now?
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Offline Jakub

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2008, 03:59:42 PM »
Yes Carole is correct and I agree this is a Orthodox Forum and it's primary function is to serve those of the Orthodox Faith, so logic would dictate that the majority of the material here will have a Orthodox spin or leaning.

If I see or read something I don't like I'll tend to think what the.... and move on ... that's life

pax etc etc

ps-after a few I'm bullet proof... 8)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2008, 04:07:39 PM »
Yes Carole is correct and I agree this is a Orthodox Forum and it's primary function is to serve those of the Orthodox Faith, so logic would dictate that the majority of the material here will have a Orthodox spin or leaning.
And it seems to me that for some, the very fact that we are "pro-Orthodox" makes us "anti-Catholic". It may surprise them to know how little time Orthodox Christians actually spend thinking about Catholicism.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2008, 04:10:06 PM »
I guess I would say in my defense that obviously my faith is very personal to me and the Catholic Church is my mother. The Church is a metaphysical part of my being. Often it is hard to step out of myself and comment on things in a detached way. I suppose I failed at that.

It just takes practice, it will become easier with time. You can trust me on that one.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2008, 04:11:05 PM »
Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over? I knew you wouldn't stick to it! ;)
Not exactly a man of our word, are we? So why should I believe you now?

Well, considering that this thread is largely about me, I couldn't resist. Say you were in a room, and in another room you heard a group of people talking about you. You'd want your voice heard.

I didn't exactly throw a hissy fit. This yellow moderated thing just makes posting a pain. Several of my posts haven't even made it here. It would just be easier to post when the scarlet letter is gone.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2008, 04:13:31 PM »
Well, considering that this thread is largely about me,
Actually, I don't think it is.

Several of my posts haven't even made it here.
Oooooo.....another bit of stretching of truth. It's only your hissy fit post which wasn't approved.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »
It may surprise them to know how little time Orthodox Christians actually spend thinking about Catholicism.

Offline, you mean.  ;) Netodox are another story.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2008, 04:21:34 PM »
^ Perhaps the Netodox are simply reacting to Roman Catholic proselytizers who come to Orthodox Forums and start talking about themselves and their beliefs incessantly?
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2008, 04:56:08 PM »
No. Few Catholics that I know of define themselves as non-EO. On the other hand, I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

It's not surprising. Look at Canada for an analogy. The USA is so much bigger and more visible and consequential (for better or worse), and many Canadians can't help but have some antipathy and define themselves as definitely-not American. It's human nature. Just as Canadians always raise the alarm about becoming Americanized, for centuries now the EO have been arguing over becoming Latinized. Some of these arguments have been catalysts for EO schisms which still persist.

I have seen plenty of this in EO circles, especially among converts. Since the Catholic Church is so much bigger than the EO churches, obviously the ex-Catholic EO are going to be more visible. The global Catholic Church, being the much bigger and far more visible half of the formerly undivided Church, and having millions of Eastern Catholics under it, understandably causes some antipathy in the little-regarded EO churches, most of whose members are concentrated in Eastern Europe.

I can still vividly recall the ugly reactions (among both laity and hierarchy) to John Paul II's visit to Greece a few years ago. Can you imagine the Patriarchs of Moscow or Constantinople getting a reaction like that anywhere in the Catholic world?

Witness also the cottage industry of EO books attacking Catholic beliefs and the very heated arguments among EO leaders and theologians over ecumenism. It's a huge controversy.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2008, 04:59:15 PM »
No. Few Catholics that I know of define themselves as non-EO. On the other hand, I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

It's not surprising. Look at Canada for an analogy. The USA is so much bigger and more visible and consequential (for better or worse), and many Canadians can't help but have some antipathy and define themselves as definitely-not American. It's human nature. Just as Canadians always raise the alarm about becoming Americanized, for centuries now the EO have been arguing over becoming Latinized. Some of these arguments have been catalysts for EO schisms which still persist.

I have seen plenty of this in EO circles, especially among converts. Since the Catholic Church is so much bigger than the EO churches, obviously the ex-Catholic EO are going to be more visible. The global Catholic Church, being the much bigger and far more visible half of the formerly undivided Church, and having millions of Eastern Catholics under it, understandably causes some antipathy in the little-regarded EO churches, most of whose members are concentrated in Eastern Europe.

I can still vividly recall the ugly reactions (among both laity and hierarchy) to John Paul II's visit to Greece a few years ago. Can you imagine the Patriarchs of Moscow or Constantinople getting a reaction like that anywhere in the Catholic world?

Witness also the cottage industry of EO books attacking Catholic beliefs and the very heated arguments among EO leaders and theologians over ecumenism. It's a huge controversy.


Oh please tell us more about Roman Catholicism and how wicked and uncharitable the Orthodox are because their ecclesiology rejects the Branch Theory.  We're all dying to know....::)
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2008, 05:10:14 PM »
Offline, you mean.  ;) Netodox are another story.

I know of many EO (often ex-Catholics or ex-Protestants) in person and online who at least partially define themselves by their antipathy to Catholicism.

Can't even stay consistent in two successive posts on the same thread, can you?
I think your view of the Orthodox "anti-Catholicism" is actually a bit of projection.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2008, 05:17:26 PM »
Are you both letting this develop into a twosome of a personal nature ?

I have better things to do, the beer is cold and the smoking light is on...pax



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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2008, 05:22:05 PM »
Are you both letting this develop into a twosome of a personal nature ?
I don't think lubeltri is being personal when he talks about "EO circles, especially converts", do you?
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2008, 05:24:54 PM »
Oh please tell us more about Roman Catholicism and how wicked and uncharitable the Orthodox are because their ecclesiology rejects the Branch Theory.  We're all dying to know....::)

Why would I when my Church rejects the branch theory as well?  ::)

I never said Catholicism has a monopoly on charity.

I didn't make any judgments, bud (especially harsh ones like "wicked")---just stating realities, however you want to interpret them.


Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2008, 05:25:01 PM »
BTW, I never mentioned EO ecclesiologies. They are an entirely separate issue from fairly common EO antipathy to the Catholic Church, which does not have its origins in theology but in ideology, ethnicity, nationalism, politics and psychology.

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2008, 05:40:53 PM »
George, as an added note, you are completely free to believe what you'd like. It doesn't bother me in the least.



 :)

God bless. I'll be taking my break now.

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2008, 05:43:45 PM »
I didn't make any judgments, bud (especially harsh ones like "wicked")---just stating realities, however you want to interpret them.



Thanks. I might just use that as my avatar! We certainly don't need infallible pilgrims!
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2008, 05:48:19 PM »
And thanks, lubeltri, for taking the time to show everyone why you were placed on post moderation and proving that OCnet's actions were in fact not "anti-Catholic" but directed at moderating a particular poster for breach of forum rules.
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Offline Carole

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2008, 05:49:18 PM »
lubeltri,

I think you have, in this thread, succeeded in showing just how patient the moderators and administrators of the forums are.  Were someone to engage in such impolite behaviour (particularly after repeated requests/reminders to abide by the rules) in my home or on my message boards they would have found themselves being asked to leave.

Please, rethink your statements and your behaviour.  At this point you are not only making yourself look short-tempered and hostile but your actions and words reflect on the Catholic Church.  Surely you do not intend to shame your Mother by showing such a lack of common courtesy?
Carole

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2008, 06:33:48 PM »
lubeltri,
I have disapproved your latest post because it quotes from the private forum in the public forum. Please observe our forum rules and try again.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2008, 06:37:33 PM »
lubeltri,

I think you have, in this thread, succeeded in showing just how patient the moderators and administrators of the forums are.  Were someone to engage in such impolite behaviour (particularly after repeated requests/reminders to abide by the rules) in my home or on my message boards they would have found themselves being asked to leave.

Please, rethink your statements and your behaviour.  At this point you are not only making yourself look short-tempered and hostile but your actions and words reflect on the Catholic Church.  Surely you do not intend to shame your Mother by showing such a lack of common courtesy?

Carole,

As I calmly explained in my alleged "hissy fit" post which never saw the light of day, I wanted to not post here any longer, at least until the yellow dot was gone, as my sense of unfairness at this scarlet letter (compounded by George acting like he is my priest---see example above) would seriously challenge my ability to be patient and charitable here.

Well, if you see any testiness in me, you know why. And which is why I am taking a (temporary or permanent) break. Sorry to be any trouble.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »
lubeltri,
I have disapproved your latest post because it quotes from the private forum in the public forum. Please observe our forum rules and try again.

You might notice that I no longer have that post and cannot try again. Once I send it off for approval, it's gone.  :-\


Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2008, 06:43:06 PM »
You might notice that I no longer have that post and cannot try again. Once I send it off for approval, it's gone.  :-\
Well, if it has valid points and was not simply written in the heat of the moment, then surely you can recall what the point is and rewrite it without quoting the private forums in the public area.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2008, 06:46:04 PM »
(compounded by George acting like he is my priest---see example above)
??? I'm a moderator of this forum. Should I not moderate to ensure forum rules and policy are adhered to?
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2008, 06:55:46 PM »
So you see, this is not so much a "punishment" as a medicine- kinda like the Orthodox view of harmatia and it's correction. ;)

I was referring to this.

-

Yes, you are moderator. But you could certainly moderate yourself a bit and refrain from the condescending, mocking, sarcastic and baiting comments you sometimes toss out, that's all. I've been offended by them from time to time, and I'm not in a state right now to take them in stride. So I must be off.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2008, 07:18:22 PM »
I was referring to this.

-

Yes, you are moderator. But you could certainly moderate yourself a bit and refrain from the condescending, mocking, sarcastic and baiting comments you sometimes toss out, that's all. I've been offended by them from time to time, and I'm not in a state right now to take them in stride. So I must be off.

I'm not baiting you lubeltri, I am responding to your posts. It seems as though any time I question your opinion of anything or your version of facts, I'm "baiting" or "being condescending" or "mocking". What do you want from a forum? To be able to state your opinion without it being questioned?
I do seem to bring out the worst in you, don't I? See for example the thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12949.0.html
Perhaps we just have a personal antipathy for each other- whether conscious or not, but believe me, I have on several occassions gone in to bat for you and tried to defend you from having to be moderated (both publically and privately with other moderators), so I can honestly say that even if I do feel antipathy towards you, I sincerely make the effort not to let it interfere with my responsibilities as a moderator.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2008, 08:01:52 PM »
It's only your hissy fit post which wasn't approved.
Wow. This is extermely becoming of some one who is supposed to be representative of oc.net
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2008, 08:04:12 PM »
I'm not baiting you lubeltri, I am responding to your posts. It seems as though any time I question your opinion of anything or your version of facts, I'm "baiting" or "being condescending" or "mocking". What do you want from a forum? To be able to state your opinion without it being questioned?
I do seem to bring out the worst in you, don't I? See for example the thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12949.0.html
Perhaps we just have a personal antipathy for each other- whether conscious or not, but believe me, I have on several occassions gone in to bat for you and tried to defend you from having to be moderated (both publically and privately with other moderators), so I can honestly say that even if I do feel antipathy towards you, I sincerely make the effort not to let it interfere with my responsibilities as a moderator.

^ As a former mod, of that I can attest as far as OzG's input.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2008, 01:52:14 AM »
Offline, you mean.  ;) Netodox are another story.
Ya know, maybe when talking with you we will seem anti-Catholic.  We know that we are speaking to a Roman Catholic and will choose our words based on our audience; when not talking with you or any other RC, we will most likely NOT be talking about Catholicism, because it won't be what our audience wants to talk about.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2008, 04:27:40 AM »
Thanks for the messages. Maybe you are right. Lent is coming. I will cool off. I'll be back on Ash Wednesday (one week from today), but I will be adding something to my Lenten penances: no polemical discussions for me.

May God bless you all until then.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2008, 04:55:18 PM »
Carole,

I addressed the issue of Catholic guests on an Orthodox forum specifically because the moderators of the board are being accused of "anti-Catholicism" and this thread is in the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum. 

What I said wasn't that they were anti-Catholic, but rather: "When the thread started, I had no intention of suggesting anti-Catholicism in the moderation of oc.net, but now I'm starting to wonder a little bit."

Now I regret saying even that. (I imagine if someone had said that to me, I would be like "You're starting to wonder? Um ... okay, call me back when you make up your mind.")



lubeltri,

I can't help but feeling that there is some hypocrisy here, considering the many-page rant at the CAF (and the crowing over the conversions EO posters there had accomplished) in a thread elsewhere in this forum. I saw the CAF Eastern forum before the deluge---it wasn't pretty.

I don't claim the moderation of oc.net to be perfect -- and I have even been known (on a rare occasion  ;) :angel:) to complain about it.

But please, don't compare it to the CAF moderation. ::) If the oc.net moderators were at all like the CAF moderators, this thread wouldn't even be allowed to exist, and you'd have been banned (secretly, of course) from the forum. And that's just for starters.

God bless,
Peter.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2008, 04:58:01 PM »
ozgeorege,

Aren't you glad now, lubeltri, that I didn't approve the post you made where you had a hissy fit and said you were not going to post here until you period of moderation was over?

If so, then wouldn't you also figure he'd prefer for you not to announce to everyone that he "had a hissy fit and said [he was] not going to post here, etc."?
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2008, 05:19:04 PM »
Thanks for the messages. Maybe you are right. Lent is coming. I will cool off. I'll be back on Ash Wednesday (one week from today), but I will be adding something to my Lenten penances: no polemical discussions for me.

May God bless you all until then.

I hope your preparation for lent is a blessed one, and that your time of preparing for the Lord's Resurrection assists you in any way that you need!
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »
And may I wish you a (super) happy Cheesefare Sunday, and a blessed beginning of Great Lent tomorrow.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #92 on: February 03, 2008, 11:37:44 PM »
Thanks for the messages. Maybe you are right. Lent is coming. I will cool off. I'll be back on Ash Wednesday (one week from today), but I will be adding something to my Lenten penances: no polemical discussions for me.

May God bless you all until then.

Well at least you've got the Super Bowl (>:( :'() to cheer you up.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2008, 01:02:02 AM »
And may I wish you a (super) happy Cheesefare Sunday, and a blessed beginning of Great Lent tomorrow.
Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness, but our Lent begins very late this year. Cheesefare Sunday is March 2, and Great Lent begins March 3 (New Calendar...not sure about the Old).

Blessed Great Lent to all our friends in the West.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2008, 01:16:57 AM »
Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness, but our Lent begins very late this year. Cheesefare Sunday is March 2, and Great Lent begins March 3 (New Calendar...not sure about the Old).

Blessed Great Lent to all our friends in the West.

The movable feasts associated with Pascha are the same on both calendars.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2008, 01:53:28 AM »
Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness, but our Lent begins very late this year. Cheesefare Sunday is March 2, and Great Lent begins March 3 (New Calendar...not sure about the Old).
Sorry, Y-man, but I think you're a week early on this one. ;)  Cheesefare/Forgiveness Sunday is March 9 with Clean Monday to follow on March 10.  I do believe, though, that Mardi Gras--STAY OUT OF NEW ORLEANS!--is this Tuesday, with Ash Wednesday the next day.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2008, 09:46:45 AM »
Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness, but our Lent begins very late this year. Cheesefare Sunday is March 2, and Great Lent begins March 3 (New Calendar...not sure about the Old).

Blessed Great Lent to all our friends in the West.

Boy is my face red :o

Great Lent begins today for Melkite Catholics in the U.S. When I wrote the above, I apparently forgot that  Melkite Catholics in the U.S. celebrate the western date for Easter, and not the Orthodox Easter (unless the two just happen to coincide).

Would I be right in wishing you a blessed feast of Sts. Simeon and Anna today?
-Peter.
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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2008, 12:31:57 PM »
Would I be right in wishing you a blessed feast of Sts. Simeon and Anna today?
-Peter.

Almost - it was yesterday, the 3rd - but that's very thoughtful of you!
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2008, 12:57:05 PM »
Sorry, Y-man, but I think you're a week early on this one. ;)  Cheesefare/Forgiveness Sunday is March 9 with Clean Monday to follow on March 10.  I do believe, though, that Mardi Gras--STAY OUT OF NEW ORLEANS!--is this Tuesday, with Ash Wednesday the next day.
Doh! I was looking at the pink squares on my St. Tikhon's calendar, which indicate a fast day--but I forgot that Cheesefare Week is colored pink as well.

And along with New Orleans, all of the Spanish-speaking world is celebrating Carnival tomorrow, so it might be best to stay out of the Western Hemisphere this week.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 12:58:49 PM by ytterbiumanalyst »
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2008, 01:50:45 AM »
Well, I'm back.

I had a very blessed week. All was grace. I spent much of it in retreat with some Assumptionist friends at their center. As you might know, the Augustinians of the Assumption are known for their engagement with the East. Much of the art on the walls of the Assumptionist house was Eastern. The room I slept in was adorned with an icon of Christ Pantokrator and also a Greek depiction of the Dormition of the Theotokos. One of my friends there, a seminarian, carries around a prayer rope and prays the Jesus Prayer. How about that, eh? He's going to be a wonderful priest.

I repent of my lack of charity here in the past, and I sincerely beg you all for your forgiveness. I will not let it happen again.

I am reminded of the end of Epistle reading I heard at Mass this past Sunday, Quinquagesima Sunday:

"And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."

(St. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13)

I am very eager to begin Lent. I don't know why, but I feel such joy in anticipation of the penances and devotions I plan to perform. Joy, mixed with sorrow over the sins we have committed that led Christ to die on that Cross. I pray that, with the assistance of grace, the crosses we all bear bring us closer to Christ.

May the light of our Lord shine brightly upon you all this week. God bless.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2008, 03:03:30 AM »
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2008, 03:25:21 AM »
I repent of my lack of charity here in the past, and I sincerely beg you all for your forgiveness. I will not let it happen again.
May God forgive us all (which is an Orthodox way of saying I forgive you).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2008, 11:18:42 PM »
I can't help but feeling that there is some hypocrisy here, considering the many-page rant at the CAF (and the crowing over the conversions EO posters there had accomplished) in a thread elsewhere in this forum. I saw the CAF Eastern forum before the deluge---it wasn't pretty.

Venjamin,

My intention was to clarify, not proselytize. The mention of my personal experience was just an aside. If I had known I would be taken that way, I would not have mentioned it. But the statement did beg for clarification.

Lubeltri,

Just curious, who are you at CAF (or are you)?

Personally, even if you were proselytizing (and I don't recall any glaring example), Orthodoxy can take it.  I'd prefer honesty than walking on egg shells.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2008, 01:26:53 AM »
Just curious, who are you at CAF (or are you)?

Hi ialmistry,

I don't think I had a username. I lurked there for a while (and still do occasionally). I do have a username on the Defenders of the Catholic Faith forum. I am Baeda Venerabilis. If I am listed on CAF, it would be that name.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is OC.net anti-catholic in moderation?
« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2008, 01:29:35 AM »
DCF forum...now there's an Orthodox friendly place  :-\
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides