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« Reply #225 on: June 09, 2008, 10:31:28 AM »

Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America - EP (2) parishes. I enjoyed visiting one of them several times. Another one, in Chicago, possesses a myrrh-streaming icon.

St. Nicholas Albanian Church. It's across from a shopping mall about 10 minutes from my house. John Belushi (SNL, Blues Brothers, etc.) was married in that church. My brother actually sang for his wedding. It's a nice place to visit. The priest there is Fr. Phillip Koufos who is a noted iconographer.

Here's the web site for more information: http://stnicholasalbanianchicago.org/

-Nick
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« Reply #226 on: June 09, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »

St. Nicholas Albanian Church. It's across from a shopping mall about 10 minutes from my house. John Belushi (SNL, Blues Brothers, etc.) was married in that church. My brother actually sang for his wedding. It's a nice place to visit. The priest there is Fr. Phillip Koufos who is a noted iconographer.

Here's the web site for more information: http://stnicholasalbanianchicago.org/

-Nick

I remember when the icon began to weep, on St. Nicholas day.  There were crowds of people during X-mas (or as Il like to say, greed fest, as opposed to Christmas) who filled up the parking lot in the shopping mall, and went across to stand in the blocks long line to see the icon.  I think the Church opened a soup kitchen with the money they collected.
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« Reply #227 on: June 09, 2008, 09:26:32 PM »

St. Nicholas Albanian Church. It's across from a shopping mall about 10 minutes from my house. John Belushi (SNL, Blues Brothers, etc.) was married in that church. My brother actually sang for his wedding. It's a nice place to visit. The priest there is Fr. Phillip Koufos who is a noted iconographer.

Here's the web site for more information: http://stnicholasalbanianchicago.org/

-Nick


Iv Been to that Church to see the weeping  Icon Of The Holy Virgin On the Ikonastasis[ icon screen ]......Beautiful Church...i heard they  Have Have a organ now drats.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #228 on: June 10, 2008, 09:31:09 AM »

QUOTE:
"Just a quick reply to A Sombra, Reply #213, the Patriarchate of Moscow, was never associated w/SCOBA.  Their diocesan unit, in 1961, when it was founded, did not join, probably due to the disputes w/the Metropolia at the time.  I have a recollection, perhaps in error, that they were invited to join."

The North American Exarchate of the Moscow Patriarchate was one of the original members of SCOBA. The Exarchate, represented by Bishop Dositheus (Ivanchenko) was present at the first meeting; the next five in which the Constitution was discussed, debated, and adopted, and Bishop Dositheus signed the Constitution as the Exarchate's representative.

Bishop Dositheus, Metropolitan John (Wendland), and Archbishop Jonathan (Kopolovich) represented the Exarchate during the next nine years. The membership in SCOBA was terminated when the North American Exarchate of the Moscow Patirarchate was "liquidated" [thats what it said in the book-ironic language for the MP!] as a result of the granting of Autocephaly by the Moscow Patriarchate to the Orthodox Church in America.

Information from: "The Quest for Orthodox Church Unity in America" by Archimandrite Serafim (Surrency) Saints Boris and Gleb Press, New York, 1973
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« Reply #229 on: July 08, 2008, 09:11:43 AM »

Well, if you're going to disqualify a number of GOA parishes because you don't think they're really parishes, we could get started on the nearly-dead OCA mining- and steel-town parishes, and the plethora of 25-50 family parishes.  The numbers I provided a page ago in my breakdown not only come from the SCOBA directory system, but the OCA number includes the ethnic vicarates (Romanian, Albanian, etc.).

Eh, the debt is manageable.  I still don't think it's a pertinent part of this discussion, but oh well.


In reference to Cleaveland's comment about the 25-50 family parishes in the OCA Rust Belt noted in May comments.

I never have understood the deal about  the 25-50 family parishes issue.  If the Orthodox Church wants to become a real entity in the United States, especially, we have to recognize that many small towns and cities will only get an Orthodox presence in their community by  organizing those 25-50 familes into a parish. I know many protestant and Catholic Churches in the South who function very well as 25-50 family communities.  In the small city I reside in there are about 50 people from 20 families who are Orthodox but they are splintered and travel 50 to 150 miles to occassionally go to various juridictions. None of the jurisdictions has offered a home for them locally and so Orthodoxy in my own city is limited to a few social gatherings and occassional vespers offered at my home.  Until American Orthodoxy recognizes that it is OK to have a 25-50 family  parish we will remain in the old enclaves and remain an ethnic expression of the faith, continue to try to build megachurches that fail to meet the intimacy that many are looking for in  their spiritual life, jhmo.

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« Reply #230 on: July 19, 2008, 12:42:24 PM »

Very nice information about Saint Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church. Thank you for sharing.

Also, regarding Saint Euphrosynia Byelorussian Greek Orthodox Church in Toronto, which formerly belonged to  Byelorussian Council of Orthodox Churches of North America, now became a part of Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Canada. The parish is listed in the directory of this Metropolis:

http://www.gocanada.org/parishdirectory/index.htm
Seems appropriate and beneficial from the standpoint of easier governance. 
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« Reply #231 on: August 05, 2008, 10:49:38 PM »

After listening to a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio, I began wondering, why aren't more steps being taken into unity of the Orthodox in North America?

I looked over some information, and this is what I came up with...

The Orthodox Church in America: 450,000-1,000,000 members, 623 parishes
Antiochian Archdiocese of North America: 80,000 members, 200 parishes
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America: 1,500,000 members, 540 parishes
Ukrainian: 105 parishes

OCA: Metropolitan Herman (Washington D.C.)
GOofNA: Metropolitan Demetrios (NYC)
Antiochian: Metropolitan Philip (NYC)

Out of just these three jurisdictions, I came up with:

Orthodoxy in America:
2,580,000 members
1,468 parishes
8 seminaries

How can we turn all the different EO jurisdictions in the United States into one jurisdiction? What might it be called? Where would it's Metropolitan be seated? as well as other things you can think of.

This also wouldn't solve all the problems, and it would probably solve some, while creating other problems. However IMO, it would be most beneficial for a united Orthodox Church in America. It would definitely be best for Orthodox Christians, as well as for Orthodoxy in America in general. There are so many other denominations and churches out there, that we are almost parallelling the thousands of Protestant denominations out there with our own division. This also creates a problem when you have many real EO Churches with different names, and you also have non-Eastern Orthodox churches such as Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, and even some smaller churches calling themselves Orthodox though they are in fact not "Orthodox" but might be unity churches w/ their own local bishops.

Wouldn't it also be better financially to have a unified church? Instead of sending money to Constantinople, Antioch and Ukraine to have all Eastern Orthodox Churches in the USA send it to the main center for the church in the USA?

They said that according to the Councils (Or something like that), it is heretical to divide your churches by race and ethnicity. It's definitely ok to have churches with different languages, but it's heretical to divide by race and ethnicity (as we see with division into American, Ukrainian, Greek and Antiochian churches according to them).

The other issue to, is with the lack of funds for American churches, we continue to have to have many churches that aren't able to completely beautify themselves or appear more traditional. Instead they have to cut costs for buildings. I know many Orthodox Churches in the USA today do look more traditional and have many icons and beautiful things in them. However we also have many churches that have to meet in strip malls, or churches built as metal buildings or with materials that aren't very traditional or even aesthetic. I think that is one of the very important things for the Orthodox Church... It has to definitely look different than the Catholic and Protestant Churches.

Also, how can Orthodoxy have a stronger presence in the United States when we are so divided and spread out? There are over 2.5 million Orthodox in the USA today. That means 1% of Christians in the USA are Orthodox. I know it doesn't seem like much, but while it isn't Christian, look at Mormonism, about the same amount of people, many people know about Mormons and their beliefs.

It would be most beneficial for us to unite... What would it take?

Personally, i'd think the Metropolitan of the one N.A. Orthodox Church ought to be in Chicago (for centrality b/t east cost and west coast, and USA/Canada), Washington D.C. or N.Y.C.

What are your thoughts?

Here is the podcast where I heard some of these things:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/toward_an_american_orthodox_church_encore_presentation

(NOTE: When I use "we" I'm not putting myself in the category of Orthodox, since I've yet to become even Catechumen. I felt it was better to use "we" rather than always use "Orthodox" or "you" so I wouldn't sound accusing or chastising, which is not my intent at all)
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« Reply #232 on: August 05, 2008, 10:57:38 PM »

From where are you gathering your information?  I find it difficult to believe that there are 17 Orthodox seminaries in America (or even the entire Western Hemisphere for that matter).
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« Reply #233 on: August 05, 2008, 10:58:36 PM »

Orthodox websites, as well as: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Main_Page and wikipedia.org (though use it less than orthodoxwiki)

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antiochian_Orthodox_Christian_Archdiocese_of_North_America
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Greek_Orthodox_Archdiocese_of_America
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Church_in_America
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« Reply #234 on: August 05, 2008, 10:59:12 PM »

From where are you gathering your information?  I find it difficult to believe that there are 17 Orthodox seminaries in America (or even the entire Western Hemisphere for that matter).
Yeah, I have never heard of that many seminaries in the U.S., hmmm.
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« Reply #235 on: August 05, 2008, 11:01:52 PM »

However it may be a typo, can't remember

Yup, was a typo/mistake... actually 8 in North America
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« Reply #236 on: August 05, 2008, 11:31:21 PM »

Well.............Here's the story:

North America was officially under Russian Jurisdiction since they were here first. That was accepted until the Russian Revolution when Moscow lost contact with us.

Eventually the collaborationist Moscow Patriarchy emerged and gave the Metropolia( now the OCA), the Ukrainian/Russian group in the USA "autosephily", complete independence to run their own affairs. This was not universally accepted since it came from the collaborationist faction of Russian Orthodoxy. It was certainly not accepted by the Russian Orthodox Church in exile (Rocor) . Other ethnic Jurisdictions like the Greeks and Arabs filled the void and put down roots. Moscow even set up a few parishes directly under their wing and outside the OCA.

At the end of the day the OCA has the best case for legal jurisdiction. However, their current internal problems keep them from leading. Rocor and Moscow have now reconciled with each other.

The solution may be for Moscow to unite all factions by reasserting their authority, especially since they are now in communion with Rocor and have influence with a rapidly disintegrating OCA....
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« Reply #237 on: August 05, 2008, 11:57:02 PM »

Eventually the collaborationist Moscow Patriarchy emerged and gave the Metropolia( now the OCA), the Ukrainian/Russian group in the USA "autosephily",

:-) "Autosephily" sounds like a particularly nasty disease.

The Russian tomos of autocephaly is one of the strangest ecclesiastical documents I've ever read. Just go to the OCA site and read the actual document. Never ceases to amaze.

Also, one should at least be aware of this (contra the story you reported):

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_response_to_OCA_autocephaly
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« Reply #238 on: August 10, 2008, 08:10:02 PM »

After listening to a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio, I began wondering, why aren't more steps being taken into unity of the Orthodox in North America?

I looked over some information, and this is what I came up with...

The Orthodox Church in America: 450,000-1,000,000 members, 623 parishes
Antiochian Archdiocese of North America: 80,000 members, 200 parishes
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America: 1,500,000 members, 540 parishes
Ukrainian: 105 parishes

OCA: Metropolitan Herman (Washington D.C.)
GOofNA: Metropolitan Demetrios (NYC)
Antiochian: Metropolitan Philip (NYC)

Out of just these three jurisdictions, I came up with:

Orthodoxy in America:
2,580,000 members
1,468 parishes
8 seminaries

How can we turn all the different EO jurisdictions in the United States into one jurisdiction? What might it be called? Where would it's Metropolitan be seated? as well as other things you can think of.

This also wouldn't solve all the problems, and it would probably solve some, while creating other problems. However IMO, it would be most beneficial for a united Orthodox Church in America. It would definitely be best for Orthodox Christians, as well as for Orthodoxy in America in general. There are so many other denominations and churches out there, that we are almost parallelling the thousands of Protestant denominations out there with our own division. This also creates a problem when you have many real EO Churches with different names, and you also have non-Eastern Orthodox churches such as Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, and even some smaller churches calling themselves Orthodox though they are in fact not "Orthodox" but might be unity churches w/ their own local bishops.

Wouldn't it also be better financially to have a unified church? Instead of sending money to Constantinople, Antioch and Ukraine to have all Eastern Orthodox Churches in the USA send it to the main center for the church in the USA?

They said that according to the Councils (Or something like that), it is heretical to divide your churches by race and ethnicity. It's definitely ok to have churches with different languages, but it's heretical to divide by race and ethnicity (as we see with division into American, Ukrainian, Greek and Antiochian churches according to them).

The other issue to, is with the lack of funds for American churches, we continue to have to have many churches that aren't able to completely beautify themselves or appear more traditional. Instead they have to cut costs for buildings. I know many Orthodox Churches in the USA today do look more traditional and have many icons and beautiful things in them. However we also have many churches that have to meet in strip malls, or churches built as metal buildings or with materials that aren't very traditional or even aesthetic. I think that is one of the very important things for the Orthodox Church... It has to definitely look different than the Catholic and Protestant Churches.

Also, how can Orthodoxy have a stronger presence in the United States when we are so divided and spread out? There are over 2.5 million Orthodox in the USA today. That means 1% of Christians in the USA are Orthodox. I know it doesn't seem like much, but while it isn't Christian, look at Mormonism, about the same amount of people, many people know about Mormons and their beliefs.

It would be most beneficial for us to unite... What would it take?

Personally, i'd think the Metropolitan of the one N.A. Orthodox Church ought to be in Chicago (for centrality b/t east cost and west coast, and USA/Canada), Washington D.C. or N.Y.C.

What are your thoughts?

Here is the podcast where I heard some of these things:
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/toward_an_american_orthodox_church_encore_presentation

(NOTE: When I use "we" I'm not putting myself in the category of Orthodox, since I've yet to become even Catechumen. I felt it was better to use "we" rather than always use "Orthodox" or "you" so I wouldn't sound accusing or chastising, which is not my intent at all)


2.5 million is rather optimistic.....

Plus, a North American Metropolitan need not neccessarily be in the States.

And we are unified. I attend a Ukrainian parish, today i was at Antioch, next week maybe the Greeks or Russians....
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« Reply #239 on: August 10, 2008, 10:06:32 PM »

Can you make a map?  I know I would find that helpful. 

Your wish is my command, good sir.



Orange - South
Purple - West
Red - Midwest
Blue - Ohio Valley
Green - Northeast
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« Reply #240 on: August 10, 2008, 10:46:19 PM »

These membership statistics, I regret to state, are way too optimistic. Look at the mailing lists of the national jurisdictions. The "Orthodox Observer," the newspaper of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (USA only), had 125 thousand on its mailing list in 1998, while it claims "1.5 million members." The moral and financial scandal of the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) (U.S. & Canada, primarily) revealed "The Orthodox Church" mailing list is down to 25 thousand as of two years ago, though their national financial assessment is based on numerical parish membership and it is thought that parishes may under report. The OCA claims a 400 thousand membership. (It was claiming one million members during Metropolitan Theodosios' tenure.) The American-Carpatho Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese in the USA's mailing list was less than 10,000, 10 years ago, and may be as low as 2-3 thousand, now. Traditionally they would claim 35,000 members.  Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL), in a publication in the early '90's, had estimated perhaps a million active Eastern Orthodox Christians in America.  The 5 & 6 million figures come from an overstated populous by the Ecumenical Patriarch Meletios IV, of Thrice Blessed Memory, (he is also the founder of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America) when, at his enthronement in 1922, he stated, "I saw the largest and best part of the Orthodox Church in diaspora, and I understood how exalted the name of Orthodoxy could be, especially in the great county of the United States, if the more than two million people there were united under one church organization, an American Orthodox Church."  This figure was far higher than even the immigration figures at the time could support.  The subsequent figures were immigration figure estimates, added on to the two million. Obviously, the fact that the mailing lists do not identify household size, must also be considered.  However, I think, one million active members is high, but lapsed members of the faithful who consider themselves Orthodox should be included.  The tiny covert missions, though a positive sign, do not compensate for the probably 2/3 of members who we lost over the past 90 years.
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« Reply #241 on: August 11, 2008, 11:52:27 AM »

^ My family hasn't received the Orthodox Observer in more than a decade.  I read it online anyway.   Grin
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« Reply #242 on: August 11, 2008, 01:11:56 PM »

^ My family hasn't received the Orthodox Observer in more than a decade.  I read it online anyway.   Grin

When I was in the OCA I wasn't on any OCA mailing list or got any publications directly from anyone outside my parish and I dont know anybody who did. This was/is one of the largest OCA parishes in the nation.
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« Reply #243 on: August 11, 2008, 11:23:07 PM »

Well Marc1152, your "one of the largest parishes in the nation," didn't report you or any of your friends who don't receive "The Orthodox Church," as members to the central administration.
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« Reply #244 on: August 11, 2008, 11:59:19 PM »

Who knows the truth, but following numbers are from, http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/orthodoxsummary.html with more details of the study starting here, http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/orthodoxindex.html.  I would tend to agree with his analysis, but again, who really knows. If someone has posted this before forgive my laziness in not looking to see.

"According to this author’s calculation, the real membership (number of adult adherents and their children) in all Eastern Christian Churches in the USA can be estimated at about 1,200,000 persons.  This figure is considerably less than the commonly accepted estimations of from two million to as high as over four million Orthodox believers living in the USA.

The greatest disproportion between "claimed" and actual memberships were found in the two largest Orthodox jurisdictions:

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (typically claimed 2,000,000* members versus 440,000 actual adherents)

Orthodox Church in America (1,000,000* versus 115,000)"
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« Reply #245 on: August 12, 2008, 12:16:57 AM »

So what's the point of the debate on numbers?  IMO it has very little to do with the core of the discussion on North American Unity.
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« Reply #246 on: August 12, 2008, 12:39:11 AM »

So what's the point of the debate on numbers?  IMO it has very little to do with the core of the discussion on North American Unity.

Agreed.
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« Reply #247 on: August 12, 2008, 12:46:50 AM »

So what's the point of the debate on numbers?  IMO it has very little to do with the core of the discussion on North American Unity.

You got me.  I just had come across this study before and it seemed appropriate to post in light of the discussion on numbers.
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« Reply #248 on: August 12, 2008, 01:36:56 AM »

I think discussion about the numbers is pertinent to North American Unity. United we stand....divided we fall....
and that is exactly what the numbers have shown over the last 100 years....the longer we remain separated into ethnic enclaves, the more generations we lose to secular society or to other faiths. Our ethnic divisions haven't done much to convince the non-Orthodox we are the one, true faith....most of them see us as separate denominations.
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« Reply #249 on: August 12, 2008, 03:23:03 AM »

I think discussion about the numbers is pertinent to North American Unity. United we stand....divided we fall....
and that is exactly what the numbers have shown over the last 100 years....the longer we remain separated into ethnic enclaves, the more generations we lose to secular society or to other faiths. Our ethnic divisions haven't done much to convince the non-Orthodox we are the one, true faith....most of them see us as separate denominations.

There's nothing like shock value to get a message across. I think that the diversity in the Orthodox Church in the Diaspora is one of it's greatest strengths. Yes, the non-Orthodox see "seperate denominations" with different administrative bodies, but then the shock of realizing that they are One in Faith and One in Christ, and that we actually live this as a reality is one of the most valuable lessons we can give the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #250 on: August 12, 2008, 10:57:02 AM »

Well Marc1152, your "one of the largest parishes in the nation," didn't report you or any of your friends who don't receive "The Orthodox Church," as members to the central administration.

I am just saying that basing membership on the circulation of publications in not accurate. I was a member of one of the largest if not the largest OCA parish in the country and I know of no one who go that publication. I am certain that there are people who did subscribe but your assumption seems to be that all subscribe. That is very far from the way things really are.

I also notice the absence of Rocor and Moscow Patriarchy Church's on the list. If you do add them, the combined "Russian" Orthodox community is certainly larger than the others save perhaps for the Greeks who have no good claim on  jurisdiction in the USA.

I think as soon as the OCA gets itself back on track ( perhpas after their Nov. national meeting) there will be some movement towards the three Russian style communities working out a new arrangement and then other steps will be possible.
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« Reply #251 on: August 12, 2008, 11:00:12 AM »

I am just saying that basing membership on the circulation of publications in not accurate. I was a member of one of the largest if not the largest OCA parish in the country and I know of no one who go that publication. I am certain that there are people who did subscribe but your assumption seems to be that all subscribe. That is very far from the way things really are.

I also notice the absence of Rocor and Moscow Patriarchy Church's on the list. If you do add them, the combined "Russian" Orthodox community is certainly larger than the others save perhaps for the Greeks who have no good claim on  jurisdiction in the USA.

I think as soon as the OCA gets itself back on track ( perhpas after their Nov. national meeting) there will be some movement towards the three Russian style communities working out a new arrangement and then other steps will be possible.

Oh.... and membership is reported on the basis of who donates and signs a pledge card. There is also the problem of counting families and not individuals. One family with five members may only give just one pledge of money, so numbers of individual OCA members may actually be under-reported.
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« Reply #252 on: August 12, 2008, 12:07:37 PM »

There's nothing like shock value to get a message across. I think that the diversity in the Orthodox Church in the Diaspora is one of it's greatest strengths. Yes, the non-Orthodox see "seperate denominations" with different administrative bodies, but then the shock of realizing that they are One in Faith and One in Christ, and that we actually live this as a reality is one of the most valuable lessons we can give the non-Orthodox.

George,

I don't disagree that the tapestry of our origins will be something that is attractive to many who are tired of the blandness found in various denominations but we can maintain our diversity within one administrative synod who will be acting in symphony versus the chaos we now live with which becomes all too clear when there are disagreements between the jurisdictions. I know most of us may be in communion with one another but unfortunately there are enough problems between the jurisdictions (the latest example is the confused and muddled transfer of the JP parishes to the GOA which has angered the Antiochians) to show we really don't work as one united body.

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« Reply #253 on: August 12, 2008, 12:16:28 PM »

we really don't work as one united body.
But that's exactly what I think is our witness- the fact that we are not monolithic, yet united in what we should be united in, (and what the Gospel says we should be united in- "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism") rather than in superficial things.
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« Reply #254 on: August 12, 2008, 12:43:23 PM »

But that's exactly what I think is our witness- the fact that we are not monolithic, yet united in what we should be united in, (and what the Gospel says we should be united in- "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism") rather than in superficial things.

Having one synod in a given territory does not make us monolithic. Serbia, Greece, the middle eastern countries, and Russia are living with one synod per area and they do not have these kinds of disputes. It is our tradition to work together within one synod. Then, not only will we be one faith but also one in accord. And by the way, these disputes do break our unity. The Antiochian clergy are not allowed to concelebrate with the JP clergy. It appears this break will continue because we didn't have one synod to deal with it in the beginning.
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« Reply #255 on: August 12, 2008, 01:00:45 PM »

JP was never a SCOBA member.

Now with this future GOA Vicarate a member of SCOBA, any "differences" will be ironed out between Met. Philip and Archbishop Demetrios in a collegial manner - ending any threat of inter-SCOBA schism.   Smiley
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« Reply #256 on: August 12, 2008, 02:27:16 PM »

JP was never a SCOBA member.

Now with this future GOA Vicarate a member of SCOBA, any "differences" will be ironed out between Met. Philip and Archbishop Demetrios in a collegial manner - ending any threat of inter-SCOBA schism.   Smiley

I hope so. But I have to admit, I feel sorry for Archbishop Demetrios because he has now been handed a problem he didn't ask for...I predict the JP parishes will be difficult for him to administer. I know Met. PHIL is angry about this situation but these folks were very difficult to deal with when they belonged to the Antiochian Archdiocese. Many of them have deep scars stemming from being thrown out of their country. Their land, homes and livelihoods were taken from them abruptly by the Israelis. And because of that, many of them are politically active in pursuing their dream for a free Palestine.
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« Reply #257 on: August 12, 2008, 02:38:00 PM »

I hope so. But I have to admit, I feel sorry for Archbishop Demetrios because he is now been handed a problem he didn't ask for...I predict the JP parishes will be difficult for him to administer. I know Met. PHIL is angry about this situation but these folks were very difficult to deal with when they belonged to the Antiochian Archdiocese. Many of them have deep scars stemming from being thrown out of their country. Their land, homes and livelihoods were taken from them abruptly by the Israelis. And because of that, many of them are politically active in pursuing their dream for a free Palestine.

Once the JP Churches receive a copy of the GOA Charter with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, they better shape up since the Priests and Parish Councils can be deposed by GOA Hierarchy - usually an auxiliary Bishop or even Archbishop Demetrios Himself.
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« Reply #258 on: September 08, 2008, 02:39:16 PM »

Since the Greek Orthodox Church is the oldest within the continental United States (Alaska was not a state), and since it is the largest jurisdiction, and since it is under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch, and since nations do not traditionally have their own national jurisdictions unless their people are Orthodox, the best solution for unity would be if all jurisdictions were to unite under the Greek Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #259 on: September 08, 2008, 03:49:42 PM »

Since the Greek Orthodox Church is the oldest within the continental United States (Alaska was not a state), and since it is the largest jurisdiction, and since it is under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch, and since nations do not traditionally have their own national jurisdictions unless their people are Orthodox, the best solution for unity would be if all jurisdictions were to unite under the Greek Orthodox Church.



All orthodox are united in faith as it is what are you talking about above... Huh
NOOOOOOOOOOO im against being under the newcalender Greek Church , i like it the way it is.....everybody under there own patriarch or metropolitan.....united in faith but seperate....thats the way i like it ah hu ah hu....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #260 on: September 08, 2008, 03:52:15 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities. This separation does cause harm between us. How often is a church of one jurisdiction willing to help the needs of another? Not often enough, I suppose.
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« Reply #261 on: September 08, 2008, 04:00:44 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities.
I don't believe Alexander Hamilton is one of our saints.
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« Reply #262 on: September 08, 2008, 04:01:33 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities. This separation does cause harm between us. How often is a church of one jurisdiction willing to help the needs of another? Not often enough, I suppose.


No were not seperate were united in faith ,and we don't wan't a vatican type orthodox pope....orthodoxy helps each other the Greek Church  set up the orthodox charity all orthodox churches donate to ,,i as a individual allso have donated to it...
when the call is given all orthodox come forward and help each other....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #263 on: September 08, 2008, 04:01:55 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities. This separation does cause harm between us. How often is a church of one jurisdiction willing to help the needs of another? Not often enough, I suppose.

Irrelevant secular tax status.
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« Reply #264 on: September 08, 2008, 04:03:58 PM »

NOOOOOOOOOOO im against being under the newcalender Greek Church , i like it the way it is.....everybody under there own patriarch or metropolitan.....united in faith but seperate....thats the way i like it ha hu ha hu....
Not that it matters, but the EP does have at least three Julian Calendar dioceses in North America (including Canada) - two UOCs and ACROD.

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« Reply #265 on: September 08, 2008, 04:05:31 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities. This separation does cause harm between us. How often is a church of one jurisdiction willing to help the needs of another? Not often enough, I suppose.

Irrelevant secular tax status.

It would be irrelevant if it wasn't a stumbling block for cooperation between jurisdictions. I'm talking about what happens in real life, not what we'd like to exist. We might give to some SCOBA organization far away. How often do we help the other churches in our own states, towns, and communities?
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« Reply #266 on: September 08, 2008, 04:08:35 PM »

It would be irrelevant if it wasn't a stumbling block for cooperation between jurisdictions. I'm talking about what happens in real life, not what we'd like to exist. We might give to some SCOBA organization far away. How often do we help the other churches in our own states, towns, and communities?
I don't hear anyone saying, "I'd love to get together with the Greeks and Antiochians, if only the IRS would let us."
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« Reply #267 on: September 08, 2008, 04:10:12 PM »

Legally, we are not united. According to the tax man, we are separate entities. This separation does cause harm between us. How often is a church of one jurisdiction willing to help the needs of another? Not often enough, I suppose.

Irrelevant secular tax status.

It would be irrelevant if it wasn't a stumbling block for cooperation between jurisdictions. I'm talking about what happens in real life, not what we'd like to exist. We might give to some SCOBA organization far away. How often do we help the other churches in our own states, towns, and communities?

Their respective tax-exempt status is a "stumbling block"?
To your closing question: quite often in Pittsburgh.

(Carry on, this tangent is a waste of time).
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« Reply #268 on: September 08, 2008, 04:34:08 PM »

It would be irrelevant if it wasn't a stumbling block for cooperation between jurisdictions. I'm talking about what happens in real life, not what we'd like to exist. We might give to some SCOBA organization far away. How often do we help the other churches in our own states, towns, and communities?
I don't hear anyone saying, "I'd love to get together with the Greeks and Antiochians, if only the IRS would let us."

We do have people think, "They're not our ethnicity" or "They don't give to our tithe, why should I help?" Jurisdictionalism is a real problem in this country. It's the cause of almost all our other problems.
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« Reply #269 on: September 08, 2008, 05:05:05 PM »

...
We do have people think, "They're not our ethnicity" or "They don't give to our tithe, why should I help?"
...

Which is that mysterious (non)jurisdiction in Orthodox Church with such believers?
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