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Author Topic: Did Frankish Errors Subvert Latin Orthodoxy?  (Read 2579 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: January 15, 2008, 10:57:45 AM »

This topic has been split from the "Latin Catholics Vs. Eastern Catholics" thread.

Pravoslavbob, Religious Topics Moderator



The days of a possible bad pope are long gone. The layity who are more active than ever and modern communications wouldn't stand for it.

Joab Anias,

Would you say that Charlemagne was "active" in the Church?

-Peter.
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 07:17:02 PM »

Joab Anias,

Would you say that Charlemagne was "active" in the Church?

-Peter.

I admit I am not thoroughly up to speed on him, my tongue in cheek answer would be yes of course and that time frame was indicitive of the shift from politics that was instrumental in causing all sorts of corruptions of men. A shift for the better that I recall, toward the devolotion of absolute monarch power exercised and expected obedience that we see manifesting since then to the present time where throwing around anathemas is resisted at all cost and the ideal of humility and unity is being better realized in progression of process toward the Lords second coming.

Peace.

Why, what is your point of asking? Should I be more aware of Charlemagne?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 07:19:30 PM by Joab Anias » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 04:13:37 AM »

Removing the filioque doesn't erase the 1000 some years of theological development surrounding it.
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 06:10:34 PM »

Hello,

I tend to agree with Papist's observation: it seems that the most "popular" Catholics posters are the ones who makes the most ultra-montane assertions. (Witness, for example, the "popularity" that Credo.InDeum and Athanasios have been enjoying at the St. John Chrysostom: Supporter of modern (Vatican I) Papal Primacy? thread.)

I must also comment that:

If being faithful to the Holy Father and the Magisterium, if standing with the Pope warrants me to be called an ultra-montanist - you can call me that any day, and twice on Sundays.

Pope Benedict XVI - Tu Es Petros - and I stand with him!
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2008, 06:47:54 PM »


Why, what is your point of asking? Should I be more aware of Charlemagne?
Actually yes.

The history surrounding the rise of Frankish influence in the western church is interesting. Basically, most Catholic church historical accounts skip over or de-emphasize the shift. Put another way, the Germanic church in the north came to dominate the Mediterranean church, and along with that change came the filioque.

One will find mention of the introduction of Frankish "books" into the church at Rome in that period, due to some perceived lack of books or decline in their quality (!). This is why the later Latin rite is understood to be an amalgam of the earlier Franco-Gaelic and Latin practices. Eventually the other regional rites were suppressed.
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 10:12:04 AM »

Actually yes.

The history surrounding the rise of Frankish influence in the western church is interesting. Basically, most Catholic church historical accounts skip over or de-emphasize the shift. Put another way, the Germanic church in the north came to dominate the Mediterranean church, and along with that change came the filioque.

One will find mention of the introduction of Frankish "books" into the church at Rome in that period, due to some perceived lack of books or decline in their quality (!). This is why the later Latin rite is understood to be an amalgam of the earlier Franco-Gaelic and Latin practices. Eventually the other regional rites were suppressed.

Yea, so? The Church is an organic amalgam of all that it assimilates. That would include your rite too my friend. I have no cultural prejudices to basis such bias on or I would simply have to return to my Jewish roots but alas I am a gentile, born and bread. I think that's why the terminology penned by Ignatius - Katholikos - according to the whole is synonymous with "universal". A true Christian will transcend these cultural ties in pursuit of the imitation of Christ. Besides I may have Frankish, aristocratic, Slavic, French or Irish blood lines I don't even know about.  laugh  As far as the filioque, it bewilders me why instead of looking always at how to defeat it which cannot happen as its truth from God one does not turn the stubborn will toward understanding how to ascend to its truth which should seem like freedom in comparison. Unless of course the flesh is weak and must persist in its rivalries dispite its higher nature.

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2008, 03:56:57 PM »

Should I be more aware of Charlemagne?
Actually yes.
Yea, so? The Church is an organic amalgam of all that it assimilates.
You asked the question, and I tried to answer it for you...politely.

What is your problem?..If you did not want to know, don't ask!

To be more explicit (since you did not or can not acknowledge what I was implying), the Orthodox church of Rome was overtaken by the Frankish church. We are not talking about a mere assimilation of liturgical rites and practices here my friend, we are talking about an invasion of the bodysnatchers. The substitution of one soul and mind (or theology) for another.

Why is this important?

To make a hypothetical example: It can be as if the Jansenists had grown to power in France and eventually, through the political power of a king, or someone like Napoleon, taken control of Rome. Popes being named who were themselves Jansenists from that point on. It would be easy from that point for Ultramontanist Jansenists to make ex Cathedra statements enshrining Jansenist ideas for all time, pointing to Augustine and multitudes of theologians who could be quoted in support.

Or, it could possibly be like modernists getting control of Rome (in a similar fashion) before it was ever recognized as an error and formally condemned. The ideas would not ever be condemned after that because the church of Rome never backs up after making a wrong turn.

The Catholicism you now know would not exist in either case, it would be something else which you would just as eagerly defend as "Catholic" because you are unable to see how history has victimized the western church. Not only is this type of problem possible we have already seen it happen to your church more than once and therefore know it could happen again.

It is very clear the western church has been through several episodes of factional coups, resulting in the 'developed' western church of today. The Orthodox are not eager to yoke themselves to a system so prone to factional abuse.

I think a lot of the modern problems of your church are directly traceable to similar past historical church events which have distorted it's functional-pastoral abilities. Including the uneven quality of bishops, the seminary scandals and the modern liturgical crises.

I am sorry I must be so blunt (I have great hope in a reconciliation between our churches some day, even so). I am sure you could never agree with this assessment, but it is pretty apparent from the Orthodox perspective.

Michael
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2008, 08:49:05 PM »

You asked the question, and I tried to answer it for you...politely.

I must say I am disappointed at your anything but polite reply. I had this sharp whitted retort all typed up to set you straight then the Lord reminded me of a few things:

Gal 5:26  Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another,

Gal 5:15  But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.

Heb 12:14  Eagerly pursue peace and holiness with all, without which no one will see the Lord,

Tit 3:9  But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

So I guess I won't ask you anything again as you can't put your prejudice aside long enough to be objective and here I thought you were interested in obedience to the Lord. My bad.

Peace and have a nice life.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 01:47:03 AM »

Hello Joab,
I must say I am disappointed at your anything but polite reply.
I wish what I write could be more to your liking Joab.
So I guess I won't ask you anything again as you can't put your prejudice aside long enough to be objective...
I wish you could understand that prejudice has nothing to do with this. I would really rather it were different, I don't like to write these comments any more than you care to read them.

I feel that I had no option but to write very openly, and not couch my meaning in the more palatable abstract terms I (and most people, I am sure) would prefer to use.
...and here I thought you were interested in obedience to the Lord.
It does not follow.
Peace and have a nice life.
Thank you,

Pax et Bonum
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 04:45:20 AM »

Now only if we can mail this thread to the vatican and the EP so they can put an end to their blind ecumenism.
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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 05:38:56 AM »

I wish what I write could be more to your liking Joab.
If you wished it then you would have.
Quote
I wish you could understand that prejudice has nothing to do with this. I would really rather it were different, I don't like to write these comments any more than you care to read them.
I wish you could understand the schism is all about pride and obedience of men to Gods will. It was created together and must be healed together. No one will do it at the expense of the other. Its got to be a cooperation with Jesus at the center.
I easily could have done the same thing you did with cracks about Constantine, Haga Sophia, Islam, Athos, other Sees or underground bishops and on and on but opted not to for the Lords sake. Prejudice believed becomes bigotry. Your in denial of the prejudice fueled by fundamentalism and need to get back to the basics of Jesus.
Quote
I feel that I had no option but to write very openly,
I think that's a cop out because a narrow and closed minded view is only open from that one sided perspective.
Quote
and not couch my meaning in the more palatable abstract terms I (and most people, I am sure) would prefer to use. It does not follow.
I realise you probably believe what you spewed and that's unfortunate. I suppose its well that you were honest and didn't make anything palatable for your brothers sake. At least that's something and I appreciate that because it shows whats truly in your mind. Nevertheless unless its in the imitation of the Lords ideals as recorded from Scripture then how honest is it really? Don't bother to answer, it's a rhetorical.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 05:45:37 AM »

I must say I am disappointed at your anything but polite reply. I had this sharp whitted retort all typed up to set you straight then the Lord reminded me of a few things:

Gal 5:26  Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another,

Gal 5:15  But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.

Heb 12:14  Eagerly pursue peace and holiness with all, without which no one will see the Lord,

Tit 3:9  But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

So I guess I won't ask you anything again as you can't put your prejudice aside long enough to be objective and here I thought you were interested in obedience to the Lord. My bad.

Peace and have a nice life.
Sanctimonious replies like this won't win you many allies here, either.
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 05:46:43 AM »

Now only if we can mail this thread to the vatican and the EP so they can put an end to their blind ecumenism.

You think the EP is blind?  Shocked  I am sure he is blind to that thought from the flesh though.
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 06:05:27 AM »

Sanctimonious replies like this won't win you many allies here, either.

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2Pe 1:20  ... no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.


Give the Glory to God, its His Word. I seek no glory but only to edify and build up the kingdom by revealing the works of the flesh to glorify our God.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed,

Gal 5:20 .... enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,


Lets not become resentful of His Word and Will where in no truth can contradict.

1Co 12:12  Even as the body is one, and has many members, but all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1Co 12:25  that there not be division in the body, but that the members might have the same care for one another.


2Co 5:19  For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.

Peace.
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 02:41:38 PM »

The U.S. American Catholic Church uses some form of Latin ? Really ?  I'm  Shocked
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2008, 04:07:32 AM »

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2Pe 1:20  ... no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.


Give the Glory to God, its His Word. I seek no glory but only to edify and build up the kingdom by revealing the works of the flesh to glorify our God.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed,

Gal 5:20 .... enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,


Lets not become resentful of His Word and Will where in no truth can contradict.

1Co 12:12  Even as the body is one, and has many members, but all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1Co 12:25  that there not be division in the body, but that the members might have the same care for one another.


2Co 5:19  For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.

Peace.
And your point is? Huh  That you can memorize more verses of Scripture than Sid Sawyer?
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 04:05:58 PM »

And your point is? Huh  That you can memorize more verses of Scripture than Sid Sawyer?

I think the Holy Scriptures of Gods Word as inspired by the Holy Spirit makes the points if you understand them. Don't you? At least better than I ever could, so what better reason to refer to them? Or are you trying to tell me you have something against what God says or don't understand them? Surely you don't resent Gods Words but perhaps you resent me for pointing them out to you, that  then I can understand but I am not your enemy for doing so my friend.

Does the truth the Holy Scriptures convey somehow become less true because they come to you through me? Wouldn't an authenic and humble Christian try and descern what those words are saying rather than complain under their meaning? I think they would but hey, thats just me. I know I don't like to have God preach to me either, when I would prefer to follow myself. I know thats not how it works though. I hope we agree that we must conform to His will which is perfectly contained in His Word.

Oh, and by the way I don't have them memorized. I prayed to the Holy Spirit to guide me to what was applicable and viola I am led to what we need to hear. Simple enough. No memorization necessary, just prayer and trust. The Glory goes to God alone. They are HIS words, not mine. Here's another example:

Heb 4:2  For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.

Heb 4:12  For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

St. John Chrysostom, said:
“To become adult Christians you must learn familiarity with the scriptures”

St. Jerome said:
"Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."


Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2008, 04:31:18 PM »

I think the Holy Scriptures of Gods Word as inspired by the Holy Spirit makes the points if you understand them. Don't you? At least better than I ever could, so what better reason to refer to them? Or are you trying to tell me you have something against what God says or don't understand them? Surely you don't resent Gods Words but perhaps you resent me for pointing them out to you, that  then I can understand but I am not your enemy for doing so my friend.

Does the truth the Holy Scriptures convey somehow become less true because they come to you through me? Wouldn't an authenic and humble Christian try and descern what those words are saying rather than complain under their meaning? I think they would but hey, thats just me. I know I don't like to have God preach to me either, when I would prefer to follow myself. I know thats not how it works though. I hope we agree that we must conform to His will which is perfectly contained in His Word.

Oh, and by the way I don't have them memorized. I prayed to the Holy Spirit to guide me to what was applicable and viola I am led to what we need to hear. Simple enough. No memorization necessary, just prayer and trust. The Glory goes to God alone. They are HIS words, not mine. Here's another example:

Heb 4:2  For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the Word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.

Heb 4:12  For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

St. John Chrysostom, said:
“To become adult Christians you must learn familiarity with the scriptures”

St. Jerome said:
"Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ."


Peace.
"Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"  - Acts 19:15


Now we're getting off topic, so I suggest we put aside this self-righteous nonsense and return this thread to its original purpose.
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« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2008, 05:38:25 PM »

"Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"  - Acts 19:15


Now we're getting off topic, so I suggest we put aside this self-righteous nonsense and return this thread to its original purpose.
Oh, had to edit to add this; I am nothing but vile flesh. Not worthy to be an apostle nor do I think I am.

Gal 5:26  Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another.

How can you get to the original purpose by wanting to put aside Gods Word? That would mean the original purpose has no part with God or His Word.

2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

It's not my topic as I have no part in its lies. Righteousness will always prevail in Gods word. Do you deny that?

Again I remind you its not from me but from OUR God. You seem to be having a hard time with that. Hope you have asked yourself why that is.

Heb 12:15  watching diligently that not any lack from the grace of God, that "no root of bitterness growing up" may crowd "in on you", and through this many be defiled; Deut. 29:18

Gods Words convict the errant Christian so there is no division that can stand in their light.

1Co 10:23  All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful to me, but not all things build up.

The title of this thread does not build up and God is refusing to allow it to tear down. This is considered a blessing by authentic Christians seeking peace and not division.

1Co 12:25  that there not be division in the body, but that the members might have the same care for one another.

Heb 12:14  Eagerly pursue peace and holiness with all, without which no one will see the Lord, 

I know you would like to get away from the light of scripture so arguing could ensue. That my friend is not Gods way or will for us.

Tit 3:9  But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

1Co 6:12  All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be ruled by any

Heb 4:16  Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and we may find grace for timely help.

Peace and reconciliation is the way, not strife, division and vain accusations.
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« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2008, 06:18:20 PM »

Joab Anias:

I have had quite enough of your irrelevant self-serving quotations from Scripture and your attacks on other posters.  Cease your belligerent hectoring and derailing of this thread from its original purpose, or further action will be taken.  If someone advances an argument in a post, have the courtesy to respond with relevant data or to say that you do not know how to answer. Quite frankly, I am amazed at the tolerance and forbearance shown to you by some of the posters on this thread. 

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« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2008, 08:22:28 PM »

<snip>
I realise you probably believe what you spewed and that's unfortunate. I suppose its well that you were honest and didn't make anything palatable for your brothers sake. At least that's something and I appreciate that because it shows whats truly in your mind. Nevertheless unless its in the imitation of the Lords ideals as recorded from Scripture then how honest is it really? Don't bother to answer, it's a rhetorical.

Well, I guess my spewing of church history, as brief as it was, has transfixed you, because you have not really addressed the points I raised.

I appreciate the depth of your spirituality, and I know you to be devout. I think you would be an excellent Orthodox Christian but I respect you as you are.  Smiley I think that if you did some studying up on church history we could continue this discussion a bit more. I can make some reading suggestions but any solid unbiased scholarship would do.

There are definitely several western historical periods we could discuss. Charlemagne is certainly a good place to start, but as important as it is we do not have to go there, I have other ideas as well.

Also, I would like to address this one contention of yours stated here, the "rhetorical" one: "Nevertheless unless its in the imitation of the Lords ideals as recorded from Scripture then how honest is it really?" This disturbs me for I care very much about the Lord's ideals for us, and His intentions.

Would you like to elaborate on your thoughts here? You seem to be stating that whatever I (and perhaps others) have stated-chosen-enacted does not imitate the Lord's ideals. How is it that you can know this? Is it possible that this same critical assessment might be applied to the western church...it's leadership, theologians, apologists and polemicists?

If I assume for one moment, you meant for arguments sake,

No...I prefer not to put words into your keyboard. My time is limited this week anyway. I think you should expand upon this powerful thought yourself, but be prepared to support it.

Your brother,
Michael
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 05:23:29 AM »

Joab Anias:

I have had quite enough of your irrelevant self-serving quotations from Scripture and your attacks on other posters.  Cease your belligerent hectoring and derailing of this thread from its original purpose, or further action will be taken.  If someone advances an argument in a post, have the courtesy to respond with relevant data or to say that you do not know how to answer. Quite frankly, I am amazed at the tolerance and forbearance shown to you by some of the posters on this thread. 

Pravoslavbob, Religious Topics Moderator


Thats just my point Sir. Divisive argument is irrelevant and scripture should serve everyone who reads it. In all fairness my assertions of Gods Words as truth should hardly be called belligerent hectoring as they aren't my words but those of God. So as I said before, how can you have a Christian thread and not include Gods Word or call bringing it up attacks? Jesus calls us to be humble does He not? I do nothing but reitterate what He said as the Holy Spirit prompts me and for this I am admonished by you. Quite frankly, I am amazed at the lack of tolerance for Gods word among those claiming to be the true Church and unleashing anathemas at all others. I won't derail further and if you look back I never used scripture for any end other than to justify unity, reconciliation and building up of Gods kingdom though there is much that judges. I will let you find those verses on your own in Gods time.

Peace, many years and forgive me.
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 05:56:24 AM »

Well, I guess my spewing of church history, as brief as it was, has transfixed you, because you have not really addressed the points I raised.

Well there are a few simple reasons for this.

1.) I have taken up the issues of sin in the Church myself many a year ago, both in prayer, praxis and in college through my history professors. Jesus tells us that these things must come.

2.) Christ promised us an enduring and lasting Church which we have so the notion that it could end by division or heresy doesn't make sense to me. I find the idea as ridiculous as you would a claim that your branch of the true Church (which I believe it is a true branch but one unfortunately divided none the less) was corrupted by the influence of Constantine, Arian, Photius or Nestorius, etc etc...

3.) I am tempted to point similar fingers back which I feel is unproductive for reconciliation of the two lungs of the Church so I feel I am more pleasing to the Lord by keeping silent then to let my passions gather steam.

4.) I am called to peace and reconciliation, not strife or vain arguments whose only fruit would be devouring one another and I have no desire to prostylize or be prostylized. If you are to come to a change of heart it must be without any influence on my part lest you only see my human bias even as Katholikos as I believe it to be.

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I appreciate the depth of your spirituality, and I know you to be devout. I think you would be an excellent Orthodox Christian but I respect you as you are.  Smiley I think that if you did some studying up on church history we could continue this discussion a bit more. I can make some reading suggestions but any solid unbiased scholarship would do.

Your assumption here is that I am ignorant of Church history. I have learned much and though knowledge fades away I remain certain that both our Churches are apostolic and should be united. I don't think I even have those history books any more anyway.

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There are definitely several western historical periods we could discuss. Charlemagne is certainly a good place to start, but as important as it is we do not have to go there, I have other ideas as well.

In this atmosphere I don't think either one of us could discuss them objectively to be honest and besides I don't think either of our conclusions would be any different in the end. I always have called your Church brother. All the while we would risk further inflammation.

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Also, I would like to address this one contention of yours stated here, the "rhetorical" one: "Nevertheless unless its in the imitation of the Lords ideals as recorded from Scripture then how honest is it really?" This disturbs me for I care very much about the Lord's ideals for us, and His intentions.

I trust that you do and never thought otherwise than of a misguidance. All I would ask is give my scriptural exegesis a chance and its supporting contexts. Before long it may not matter so much what anyone did in the past but how you live life in the present. Such matters of the schism are in the hands of our God, our Fathers, and the wisdom of the Church where they belong. Who are we to judge our Bishops or what they decide? Just keep following them and their work in Ravenna and all the while make as much peace with as many of your seperated brothers as you can.

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Would you like to elaborate on your thoughts here? You seem to be stating that whatever I (and perhaps others) have stated-chosen-enacted does not imitate the Lord's ideals. How is it that you can know this? Is it possible that this same critical assessment might be applied to the western church...it's leadership, theologians, apologists and polemicists?

I know this by a desire to do Gods will and not my own flesh. And to the second part, yes it can apply to any man who isn't striving to convert His will to that of our Father in heaven irregardless of the institution they hail from, none of which can bind the Holy Spirit who goes where He wills. And neither can any sin of men undo Christ or His promises.

Peace and bless you for your irenic reply.
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Peter J
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 11:56:01 PM »

Joab,

A rabbi, burdened by the importance of his work, went into the synagogue to pray. Falling to his knees, he lamented, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing! I am nothing!"

Just then a Jewish judge passed by and overhearing the prayer was moved to join the rabbi on his knees. Shortly, he too, was crying aloud, "Oh, Lord, I too am nothing! I am nothing!"

The janitor of the temple, awed by the sight of the two men praying joined them, crying, "Oh, Lord, I also am nothing! I am nothing!"

At this the judge nudged the rabbi and said, "Look who thinks he's nothing. 


God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2008, 12:51:25 AM »

Joab,

A rabbi, burdened by the importance of his work, went into the synagogue to pray. Falling to his knees, he lamented, "Oh, Lord, I am nothing! I am nothing!"

Just then a Jewish judge passed by and overhearing the prayer was moved to join the rabbi on his knees. Shortly, he too, was crying aloud, "Oh, Lord, I too am nothing! I am nothing!"

The janitor of the temple, awed by the sight of the two men praying joined them, crying, "Oh, Lord, I also am nothing! I am nothing!"

At this the judge nudged the rabbi and said, "Look who thinks he's nothing. 


God bless,
Peter.

I know the same joke, except the 3 figures are replaced in it by 3 Orthodox monks.  One is a very revered older figure, the other somewhat younger and the "janitor" figure is a very young monk.  You get the picture. Wink
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 12:52:41 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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