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Author Topic: Saint Augustine's De Trinitate  (Read 4166 times) Average Rating: 0
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Athanasios
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« on: January 18, 2008, 06:06:50 PM »

Hello,

On a side note, St. Gregory Palamas quotes from Planudes translation of St. Augustine's hated De Trinitate repeatedly and refers to him as "wise and apostolic." This is usually left out of the treatment of people like Fr. Azkoul (or even Fr. Romanides). Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming...

So what objections to the Orthodox have with this work by Saint Augustine - or Saint Augustine in general?
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 06:18:56 PM »

So what objections to the Orthodox have with this work by Saint Augustine - or Saint Augustine in general?
Please get into the habit of doing searches before you ask questions that have been answered time and time again. Nobody likes repeating themselves.
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 11:31:32 AM »

Hello,

Please get into the habit of doing searches before you ask questions that have been answered time and time again. Nobody likes repeating themselves.

Well, I don't see anything newer than about three months or so and nothing that deals specifically with this work or with the comment made about Palamas' seemingly favorable outlook on Saint Augustine.

Besides that, this is a discussion forum. If we could only have one thread on a subject, this entire forum would only have a few dozen threads at best. How many do we have on Palamas and the energy/essence debate; on the Filioque; on Original Sin; on the Immaculate Conception; on Purgatory; on the Papacy; etc., etc., etc.
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 11:48:09 AM »

Hello,

Well, I don't see anything newer than about three months or so and nothing that deals specifically with this work or with the comment made about Palamas' seemingly favorable outlook on Saint Augustine.
In other words, you made a search?
Quote
Besides that, this is a discussion forum. If we could only have one thread on a subject, this entire forum would only have a few dozen threads at best. How many do we have on Palamas and the energy/essence debate; on the Filioque; on Original Sin; on the Immaculate Conception; on Purgatory; on the Papacy; etc., etc., etc.

This 'entire site' does not exist for RC/Orthodox debate. Perhaps those issues are foremost for you, but minor to us.
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 12:46:19 PM »

Hello,

In other words, you made a search?

Yes.

This 'entire site' does not exist for RC/Orthodox debate. Perhaps those issues are foremost for you, but minor to us.

The Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum certainly does.  Tongue

Truly, this is a matter of terminology that hasn't been fully standardized. Some refer to each section as a forum, some the whole site as the forum and each section a sub-forum. Others have their own system. My own way of speaking uses the first - each section as a forum. I am not certain, though, as to how the administrators here at OC.net designate the various sections of this site.
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 12:46:44 PM »

Hello,

And now back to Saint Augustine!
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 02:20:40 PM »

Hello,

And now back to Saint Augustine!

In short, EO views on Augustine are very mixed but skew negative. He's kind of like an Origen in many EO circles.

This was a very large stumbling block for me when I was investigating the EO churches.
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 07:43:51 PM »

Truly, this is a matter of terminology that hasn't been fully standardized. Some refer to each section as a forum, some the whole site as the forum and each section a sub-forum. Others have their own system. My own way of speaking uses the first - each section as a forum. I am not certain, though, as to how the administrators here at OC.net designate the various sections of this site.
We refer to OCnet as a whole as a "site", the discussion/debate part of it as a "forum", and each individual board as a "section". Hence Fr Chris' title as "Forum Administrator" and my title, as well as that of my colleagues, as "Section Moderator".

Anyway, just because a topic doesn't have any recent entries does not mean it's closed. Any topic that has not been locked can be resurrected, and indeed resurrecting an old thread helps everyone to see what others have said in the past about a subject. Don't be afraid of a thread just because it's old. Just keep in mind that some of the members may no longer post here. If in doubt, click the poster's name, and in their profile, you'll see the date and time they last accessed the site.
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 08:23:43 PM »

Hello,

We refer to OCnet as a whole as a "site", the discussion/debate part of it as a "forum", and each individual board as a "section". Hence Fr Chris' title as "Forum Administrator" and my title, as well as that of my colleagues, as "Section Moderator".

This little tidbit about the hierarchial structure of OC.net would make a great information sticky - especially for all those who won't venture to this thread.
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 08:26:05 PM »

Hello,

In short, EO views on Augustine are very mixed but skew negative. He's kind of like an Origen in many EO circles.

This was a very large stumbling block for me when I was investigating the EO churches.

That's the general impression I get. But this quote really made me wonder:

On a side note, St. Gregory Palamas quotes from Planudes translation of St. Augustine's hated De Trinitate repeatedly and refers to him as "wise and apostolic." This is usually left out of the treatment of people like Fr. Azkoul (or even Fr. Romanides). Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming...

What do the Orthodox think of their "Pillar of Orthodoxy" Saint Gregory Palamas referring to Saint Augustine as "wise and apostolic"? And also, why is Saint Augustine's De Trinitate so hated?

« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 08:27:27 PM by Athanasios » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2008, 11:27:48 PM »

What do the Orthodox think of their "Pillar of Orthodoxy" Saint Gregory Palamas referring to Saint Augustine as "wise and apostolic"?

They do what people often do with saints's lives---cover up or ignore the bits they don't like. The few EO fans of Augustine's theology, I'd imagine, probably see it to St. Gregory Palamas's credit.
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2008, 11:45:37 PM »

Your jabs are unnecessary in this thread, lubeltri.  If you wish to actually discuss things in a charitable manner, be my guest.  But more comments like this and more severe action will be taken against you.  You have been warned.

In addition, in real-life Orthodoxy, I have yet to personally encounter a Priest or knowledgable member of the Church who was hostile towards Augustine.  They state that some of his teachings/writings had errors, but do not demonise him.  My Priest in particular in particular enjoys much of his writings.  Netodoxy is another story.

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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2008, 11:53:37 AM »

Your jabs are unnecessary in this thread, lubeltri.  If you wish to actually discuss things in a charitable manner, be my guest.  But more comments like this and more severe action will be taken against you.  You have been warned.

In addition, in real-life Orthodoxy, I have yet to personally encounter a Priest or knowledgable member of the Church who was hostile towards Augustine.  They state that some of his teachings/writings had errors, but do not demonise him.  My Priest in particular in particular enjoys much of his writings.  Netodoxy is another story.

-- Friul


I thought we were discussing EO views toward Augustine's theology, not his personal sanctity or spirituality.

Frankly discussing common EO views about Augustine's theology is not a jab. It is very mixed and does skew negative, and not just on the Net. I wouldn't have said so if it wasn't.

I take exception to this warning, considering the real jabs that I've seen on this section of late.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 02:19:03 PM »

They do what people often do with saints's lives---cover up or ignore the bits they don't like. The few EO fans of Augustine's theology, I'd imagine, probably see it to St. Gregory Palamas's credit.

I'm one of those few fans. Wink I have a great love and appreciation for St. Augustine's writing and thought and think that it hasn't been properly understood and assimilated by most modern day EO.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 02:32:36 PM »

I'm one of those few fans. Wink I have a great love and appreciation for St. Augustine's writing and thought and think that it hasn't been properly understood and assimilated by most modern day EO.

I'm glad!  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 02:48:17 PM »

Athanasios,

Read this listing about this book available on amazon.com.  I have the book myself and it is a great, balanced read.  Make sure to read ALL (7) of the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201027365&sr=8-8
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 06:51:08 PM »

Hello,

Athanasios,

Read this listing about this book available on amazon.com.  I have the book myself and it is a great, balanced read.  Make sure to read ALL (7) of the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Augustine-Orthodox-Church-Theological/dp/0938635123/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201027365&sr=8-8


Thanks for the link. It looks like a good book. When I whittle down my current stack of books which I have in fact just enlarged (including De Trinitate), I'll consider this book in my next round of book buying.
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 11:44:10 PM »

I thought we were discussing EO views toward Augustine's theology, not his personal sanctity or spirituality.

Frankly discussing common EO views about Augustine's theology is not a jab. It is very mixed and does skew negative, and not just on the Net. I wouldn't have said so if it wasn't.

I take exception to this warning, considering the real jabs that I've seen on this section of late.

Augustine is fine.  Jerome....well, let's just say I'm less than enthralled by him, although my priest is a staunch member of the St. Jerome fan club.
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2008, 10:22:34 AM »

Thread Split:

Orthodox view/opinon of St. Jerome of Stridonium

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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2008, 08:19:03 PM »

In short, EO views on Augustine are very mixed but skew negative. He's kind of like an Origen in many EO circles.

This was a very large stumbling block for me when I was investigating the EO churches.

Out and out nonsense.

St Augustine was accepted as a Father by the Ecumenical councils.

Anyone who does not accept him as a Saint and a Father is not Orthodox.

Theophan.
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2008, 10:33:09 PM »

Hello,

My copy of De Trinitate has arrived (translated by Stephen McKenna, C.SS.R).

It'll probably be a while until I get to its current spot on the book stack and I get the time to read it, but I do have it in hand!
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2008, 12:50:23 AM »

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St Augustine was accepted as a Father by the Ecumenical councils.

Anyone who does not accept him as a Saint and a Father is not Orthodox.


Not to belabour the point, but the letter of Saint Justinian the Emperor is included in the acts of the fifth Ecumenical Council and says:

"We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy fathers Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith."

Furthermore, the sentence of the Council Fathers themselves says:

"Moreover several letters of Augustine, of most religious memory, who shone forth resplendent among the African bishops, were read, showing that it was quite right that heretics should be anathematized after death."

If Saint Augustine is a complete heretic it is odd that an Ecumenical Council is citing him as a basis for its decision and the emperor who convened it mentions him among saintly teachers of the Church in his letter to it. 

Augustine is honourable for this willingness to admit his mistakes and submit to the judgement of the Church, and for his efforts to combat Donatism, Manichaeanism and Pelagianism.
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« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 12:34:01 AM »

Hello,

So what objections to the Orthodox have with this work by Saint Augustine - or Saint Augustine in general?

My opinion is that he presents problems regarding the filioque. The filioque is known to have played a critical role in the schism of 1054. Augustine clearly taught it centuries before it was added to the creed, which places his theology on probation after the 800s! IMOP!

I think that if his philosophy would of stayed clear from the filioque, he may have been more embraced. The west and east spoke different languages, so even though the filioque was up and running in the early western church father history, since it was in latin, it did not translate well into greek, which was what the eastern church spoke.

Hope that helps!
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