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Question: Anyone want to discuss this?
Discuss a new book, anyone? - 2 (4.8%)
Who wants to discuss Dr. Morey's new book? - 2 (4.8%)
I don't want to discuss some heretic's book. - 34 (81%)
Who made this poll?  Honestly?  I want more options! - 4 (9.5%)
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Author Topic: Morey's Book on Eastern Orthodoxy, The Body of Christ  (Read 30192 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2008, 11:14:39 PM »

And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean. But that does not mean I will respond to him the way he has presented himself. Again, that is not what Orthodoxy is about. What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?

I agree, his claims are ridiculous and mean-spirited. Just how one counters them, I'm not sure. Praying for the chap is a start, because I don't think that intelligent discussion will help. Afterall, he claims to have done all the homework and uncovered evidence that led him to write an expose on Orthodoxy; one that is riddled with ridiculous and meanspirited claims. (There, I said it again!)

Personally, unless the HWC has some relevant questions that we can answer to help him unravel his own confusion regarding the reliability of Morey as a theologian, I believe this is one that I would simply shake my head at and brush the dust off my sandals. I'm not suggesting that this is the course of action that everyone should take.

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« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2008, 11:26:38 PM »

As much as it pains me to say this, I must agree wholeheartedly that we have to be prepared to respond to this type of cancerous falsehood, so as to prevent it from infecting too many people, if you know what I mean.  I find this guy's work apallingly offensive, utterly ridiculous, and just plain mean.  However, we must be wise as serpants and gentle as doves. This means being informed and ready to respond with love. In the face of such belligerant vitriol, we must respond with truth and love. I, for one, plan to take a long look at what he is accusing us of, so as to adequately form a response. May the Holy Spirit enlighten us and give yus the strength, wisdom, and love to teach His truth to those who might get swept away by such hateful lies!

When we critique his work should we put our findings online?

Or should it be in book form?

or both?

I'm familiar with some of the arguments already. I just wanted to know what everyone plans on doing. Should we put our rebuttals on Orthodoxchristianity.net?



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« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2008, 11:44:27 PM »

I agree, his claims are ridiculous and mean-spirited. Just how one counters them, I'm not sure. Praying for the chap is a start, because I don't think that intelligent discussion will help. Afterall, he claims to have done all the homework and uncovered evidence that led him to write an expose on Orthodoxy; one that is riddled with ridiculous and meanspirited claims. (There, I said it again!)

Personally, unless the HWC has some relevant questions that we can answer to help him unravel his own confusion regarding the reliability of Morey as a theologian, I believe this is one that I would simply shake my head at and brush the dust off my sandals. I'm not suggesting that this is the course of action that everyone should take.



An intelligent discussion is part of the answer. It may not change his mind, but it's not his mind that I'm worried about. It's the mind of his readers I'm after.

Dr. Roberts can make the claim that he studied this and studied that. But if we show his previous work of other groups and the misrepresentation he gave to them (in some areas) then that should neutralize such claims in the mind of his readers.


What the reader needs to know is that his presuppositions from the very beginning was to attack Eastern Orthodoxy instead of giving a valid critique of Eastern Orthodoxy due to alot of evangelicals becoming Orthodox.


His arguments are from a Reformed protestant perspective. So he is looking at Orthodoxy through those lenses. Authentic christianity knew nothing of the Reformed faith. This too must be made known so that when his readers read our rebuttals it will take them out of their zone......it will cause them to contemplate on their own possible biases.



So if we attack it from different directions we will be more successful in debunking it. We already know that it's false....especially those of us who are into Church History, World Histery and the like.






JNORM888
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« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2008, 12:10:20 AM »

Well HWC, who first said he was reading the book and then said he had to wait to get the book to read it (am I the only one who is confused?) was supposed to be coming back with some points to discuss.



 
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« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2008, 12:17:04 AM »

I agree that we have little chances of changing Morey's mind. However reviewing a primer on reformed theology along with tackling this book would be a good idea. I guess I will knuckle down and buy this tome and give it a look see. It would do me well to learn more about reformed theology as well.

How would we go about this? Write up the key points in each chapter and then post them on this forum for all to review?

Any suggestions?
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« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2008, 12:25:21 AM »

Why don't we take a look at Dr. Morey?? Is he an actual theologian in the Reformed movement?? Or is that just a label attached to him??

If so....we may be better served by utilizing some resources and texts on the Reformed Movement from that tradition itself. I'm willing to read this book if that's the route we want to go....
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« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2008, 12:25:56 AM »

GreekChef,

First of all, I hope I haven't upset you, and I hope you understand that my intention is not to get into any sort of conflict with you but only to compel you to at least consider viewing this from an alternate perspective.

Quote
I didn't say it shouldn't be academic.

Okay, maybe I should’ve been clearer. Let’s keep it STRICTLY academic.

Quote
although as FrChris said, "we can't argue people into our churches. we can only love them into our churches."

Well I am not too sure what Fr. Chris meant exactly, but I think it would be safe to say that many people were won over to the Church through rational discourse and argument. St Justin Martyr is a prime example; he went on to use the dialectic method through which he was converted as a model to in turn assist the conversion of others. Nevertheless, as effective as rational discourse and argumentation can be instrumentally, it is not sufficient in and of itself, and I think the same goes for presenting a loving example. The deal-breaker/maker in the end has nothing to do with us—nothing to do with either our arguments or our loving examples—but everything to do with the inner sincerity, openness, and humility of the person we seek to win over to Christ, and ofcourse the will of God.

Quote
I react the way I do out of shock and hurt that anyone would do what this guy does.

I am not trying to tell you to not be shocked or hurt, but only to exercise a little empathy. If you read Morey carefully, it is clear he is not trying to be mean; it’s only natural for us to interpret something that undermines the very heart of our existence as such. Similarly, I’d be safe in presuming that many Protestants would consider Orthodox polemics against Protestantism—charges of abusing the scriptures, of being outside the true Church etc.—as being mean and hurtful.

Quote
you assume that all of us behave in the manner which you described.

I am not assuming anything on behalf of anyone in particular let alone everyone. I am simply saying that polemics are by nature offensive to those whom they are targeted towards, and every ideology or faith necessarily produces such polemics for the sake of upholding and defending its own integrity. The Orthodox Church is no exception.

Quote
I can only account for myself when I say, while I don't agree with Protestant doctrine, I would never presume to behave that way

Can you give a specific example of what you mean? What is a specific remark made by Morey that exemplifies this “behaviour” you speak of?

Quote
nor would I ever presume to say that I am an authority on anything Protestant

If you did extensive and in-depth study on Protestant Christianity in consultation with reputable Protestant scholarship and in light of substantial first-hand experience with Protestant Christianity you would certainly make a point of indicating all such things so as to enhance your credibility. I don’t see what Morey did wrong in that regard. Unless ofcourse he’s lying about all that. But we have no way for sure of knowing if he is or not, so it would be foolish to suggest that he is being misleading. The only prudent reaction to his claims in this regard, in my opinion, would simply be to consider the conclusions he makes and the sources he bases them on, and to demonstrate how he has misinterpreted/misrepresented/misused those sources, thereby drawing false conclusions.

Quote
My grandmother and all of her siade of my family was/is Protestant. I would never treat them that way or disrespect them by questioning whether or not they are Christians, or anyone else, for that matter.  I love them too much. That is not the example of Orthodoxy that I want to be. the example we should be is truth and love.

Yes, but everyone has their own interpretation and understanding of when truth and love clash. Some Orthodox Christians would consider Protestants not Christian, and believe that to be a truth that no amount of love can compromise, and that perfect love demands be proclaimed; but anyway, let's not go there because it really is besides the point. Let me try and offer a better example: would you consider Mormons Christians? I would hope not (they deny the very fundamentals of the Christian Faith—the Trinity, Monotheism, the Incarnation), and yet how would you respond to a Mormon who sincerely believes he is a Christian and who would be offended to the core to hear you tell him you think he is not Christian? Morey sincerely believes the Orthodox have departed so far from the faith so as to be considered unchristian; we can fault him for the basis upon which he draws such a conclusion, but objectivity precludes us from accusing him of being offensive/rude/mean in a way we ourselves could not become victim to the very same accusations.

Quote
And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean.

I certainly think they’re ridiculous; I don’t think they’re mean; not in any reasonably objective sense at least. That said, my point is simply that rather than spending pages making ad hominem attacks against a work we have not even read yet, let us keep such thoughts--thoughts which, in light of what we know of Orthodoxy, seem valid--to ourselves since they have more potential of working against us then for us in the context of a public forum. Just try to empathise; imagine that an Orthodox apologist produced a fantastic refutation of Mormonism for example, and then we, being predisposed in favour of the arguments made therein, stumble across a Mormon forum only to find all the members charging it with being ridiculous, stupid, idiotic, and God knows what else, without even addressing the substance at all and whilst admitting they haven't read the work yet! What would you think of these people? Would your own attitude to this book be likely to be weakened or strengthened?

Quote
What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?

Morey claims to have spent much time amongst Orthodox, I’m sure he saw enough loving examples. In the end, neither arguments nor loving examples will suffice to convince someone like Morey--for reasons only God knows. Ultimately, however, I’d think rational discourse to be the more effective instrument were that essential element that concerns his inner man which none of us have access to, were in such a condition so as to be receptible to the Grace that leads to the Truth.
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« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2008, 09:15:30 PM »

An intelligent discussion is part of the answer. It may not change his mind, but it's not his mind that I'm worried about. It's the mind of his readers I'm after.

Dr. Roberts can make the claim that he studied this and studied that. But if we show his previous work of other groups and the misrepresentation he gave to them (in some areas) then that should neutralize such claims in the mind of his readers.


What the reader needs to know is that his presuppositions from the very beginning was to attack Eastern Orthodoxy instead of giving a valid critique of Eastern Orthodoxy due to alot of evangelicals becoming Orthodox.


His arguments are from a Reformed protestant perspective. So he is looking at Orthodoxy through those lenses. Authentic christianity knew nothing of the Reformed faith. This too must be made known so that when his readers read our rebuttals it will take them out of their zone......it will cause them to contemplate on their own possible biases.



So if we attack it from different directions we will be more successful in debunking it. We already know that it's false....especially those of us who are into Church History, World Histery and the like.






JNORM888

I agree with you totally.  This was a very insightful post, thank you JNorm!  How would you suggest we go about it (internet vs. book)?  I'm not sure I actually have an answer except to say both, starting with something on goarch.org and the other Orthodox jurisdiction's websites (all of them would be more effective than one of them).  Also, somebody mentioned in the comments the possibility of a debate between him and a priest.  Maybe someone who is well versed in Orthodoxy with a degree and a good reputation should do this.  It would be especially effective, to my mind, if it was actually a convert, as then one of his arguments is automatically short-circuited.  My instinct is to say all three of these things, debate (or dialogue, I should say), internet, and books.  The question is, would his audience of readers be interested?  I would think they would be inclined to dismiss any response from us, unless it was a response that was a direct response to Morey's claims in an open forum (such as a debate/diologue).  They might come to hear Morey, but what they would hear (God willing that He soften their hearts to hear the truth) is the Truth and beauty of Orthodoxy.  Can anyone think of someone who might be willing to take on this ever-important task?

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« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2008, 10:08:40 PM »

By the way, has anyone looked at the rest of this website?  (biblicalthought.com)  I was reading some of the blogs, discussions, comments, etc.  Most recently (and interestingly), there is a "game" that they are playing called "Name that Heretic."  Anyone want to comment on what they think of this site?  Personally, I think that the nature and tone of the website is very condemning of those they don't agree with, and thus is going to make it even more difficult for any of the Truth of Christ in Orthodoxy to reach them, should we decide to respond. 

There are a couple of contributors on the site that are Orthodox and defending Orthodoxy (valiantly and worthily, I might add!).  It's wonderful to see (*read*) their voices in the darkness.

As I said before, I think it is imperative that we be prepared to respond to this kind of thing, and I love that I'm reading on this thread that there are people willing and wanting to do so.  I will be happy to contribute in any way possible to whatever movement (so to speak) is going on here, as far as responding.  I think it's also wonderful that it come from OC.net, because the voices on this forum are varying jurisdictions of Orthodoxy, but all are united in defending the faith!  Beautiful!  May God bless our efforts, and may He send His Holy Spirit to inspire our words to reveal His Truth!
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« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2008, 10:25:52 PM »

Sorry, I'm probably getting long winded now, but I just had to post what I just found...

At the suggestion of an earlier poster in this thread, I started looking a little at the "seminary" that this website (biblicalthought.com) is affiliated with.  It is CBUS, California Biblical University and Seminary, an online "university and seminary," of which Dr. Morey is the President.  I urge the posters on this thread to take a look at their website (cbusedu.org).  Please note that there is no notation of the school being accredited by any accrediting body (thus the website is a .org, rather than a .edu), and Dr. Morey is noted as the "primary faculty member joined by a team of adjunct instructors."  Also, please note that the website specifies that he "studied and worked with" Francis Schaeffer (the now Eastern Orthodox apologist and prolific writer on Orthodoxy). 
www.cbusedu.org for citations.

Personally, this explains a LOT to me about this man and this book.  To my mind, he has begun his own school to use as his platform to espouse his own opinions.  It also says A LOT to me that he worked with Francis Schaeffer.  Maybe this is the reason for his hatred of all things Eastern Orthodox?  Maybe Francis Schaeffer should be the one to respond to him (maybe he already has).

Also, has anyone noted who published this book?  I'd be interested to see if it was self-published (again, using his own resources to create a platform for himself).

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2008, 10:40:53 PM »

Also, please note that the website specifies that he "studied and worked with" Francis Schaeffer (the now Eastern Orthodox apologist and prolific writer on Orthodoxy). 

I think he is referring to Frank Shaeffer's father, the famous Protestant minister Francis Shaeffer.
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« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2008, 11:10:09 PM »

Greekchef,

I have just the one reservation about reading and defending the kind of blather that one finds on sites such as Dr Morey's.

I don't know about you, but I find enough real issues in this life that make it difficult to remain "on the path of spiritual growth". A large part of the spiritual experience, for me, is peace of mind; and that means choosing the right battles to enter.

In all the years that I have been Orthodox, I have found that the only benefit in explaining/defending the faith is to those who are willing to hear it.  People like Dr Morey don't really want to be informed of the truth about Orthodoxy; his book with all its silly claims is far more exciting than the truth.

It's not to say that I fear that the information I would be countering will lead me away from Orthodoxy, it's just that scrambling about finding defences against strawmen arguments becomes such a great time waster and diminishes our spiritual strength. 

I believe that we should most definitely give a good defence of the faith, but should that defence be against a barage of ridiculous claims that will certainly keep coming at us and that have the potential to destroy our peace of mind?

I'm not saying that anyone else should follow my lead in ignoring the slanderous stupidity one finds on the internet, but I feel that it might be an idea to ask ourselves if it is really worth the effort, when we could be involved in enterprises that are far more beneficial.

Perhaps we should also remember that this thread was started by HWC, who apparently has an admiration for Dr. Morey as a theologian. Therefore, the onus seems to be on HWC to present the questions that he said he had regarding Dr Morey's book rather than us entering into a carte blanche refutation of Morey's claims.

"Whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these things."



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« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2008, 11:32:51 PM »

GreekChef,

First of all, I hope I haven't upset you, and I hope you understand that my intention is not to get into any sort of conflict with you but only to compel you to at least consider viewing this from an alternate perspective.

EkhristosAnesti (beautiful username, by the way!),
Please don't worry, you haven't upset me at all.  In fact, you have given me much cause to think.  I guess I'm not very articulate at times, and many will tell you that my rhetoric is often influenced by my emotion.  You are correct that, while my facts may be correct (as far as facts go), but the rhetoric often turns people off to what I am saying.  I guess that, considering that this is an Orthodox forum, I forget sometimes that non-Orthodox who may be affiliated with the group we are discussing, may be reading this.  In which case, let me begin by apologizing if I may have offended anyone, as it was not my intent.  My words were colored by genuine hurt, shock, and pain at the claims of this book, nothing more.


Okay, maybe I should’ve been clearer. Let’s keep it STRICTLY academic.
See above.  Smiley

Well I am not too sure what Fr. Chris meant exactly, but I think it would be safe to say that many people were won over to the Church through rational discourse and argument. St Justin Martyr is a prime example; he went on to use the dialectic method through which he was converted as a model to in turn assist the conversion of others. Nevertheless, as effective as rational discourse and argumentation can be instrumentally, it is not sufficient in and of itself, and I think the same goes for presenting a loving example. The deal-breaker/maker in the end has nothing to do with us—nothing to do with either our arguments or our loving examples—but everything to do with the inner sincerity, openness, and humility of the person we seek to win over to Christ, and ofcourse the will of God.
You are exactly correct!  Thank you for this insight.

I am not trying to tell you to not be shocked or hurt, but only to exercise a little empathy. If you read Morey carefully, it is clear he is not trying to be mean; it’s only natural for us to interpret something that undermines the very heart of our existence as such. Similarly, I’d be safe in presuming that many Protestants would consider Orthodox polemics against Protestantism—charges of abusing the scriptures, of being outside the true Church etc.—as being mean and hurtful.

You are correct here as well.  I didn't think of it that way.  I would hope that books by Orthodox refuting Protestants would be tempered with love and humility, and clearly a fair discussion (clear to both sides).  But I would have to agree with you that, were I Protestant, I would probably find any refutation written hurtful, no matter how well written.  I do want to note, however, that I have read several books by Protestants that refuted Orthodoxy.  I found one of them to be entirely fair, but it did not change my faith, simply because I just didn't agree with the author (but the tone of his writing was fair and, I would say, even humble.  His academics were also totally sound).  The second one that comes to mind, I also found to be fair.  His tone was, I thought, slightly unfair (for lack of a better word), and I did not agree with some of his conclusions, as well as a little bit of his academic method and sources.  Still, though, in general, I found it to be a sound book (in my own opinion).  The professor of the class for which I was reading these two books in particular, found them both to be good books, well written, academically sound, and perfectly fair.  He is a well-reputed Orthodox theologian and teacher at Hellenic College Holy Cross.  

That said, it is for the following reasons that I am hurt and offended by this book:
The entire purpose of the writing of the book, and the tone with which it has been summarized and reviewed (at least), I find invalid and biased.  He seems to write it NOT as an academic piece, like the other authors I mentioned, but rather as a propaganda tool to be used to combat Eastern Orthodoxy.  The rhetoric employed is offensive, in my opinion.  (some of the rhetoric I am specifically speaking of is mentioned in other posts)  As well, he has (again, according to the summary, as I have not read the book yet--- this is a very valid point on your part, having not read the book, that is) seemingly bastardized (pardon the expression-- mods, feel free to change if need be to something synonymous) the academic sources he is using.  

I am not assuming anything on behalf of anyone in particular let alone everyone. I am simply saying that polemics are by nature offensive to those whom they are targeted towards, and every ideology or faith necessarily produces such polemics for the sake of upholding and defending its own integrity. The Orthodox Church is no exception.

Again, you are correct here. Thank you...

Can you give a specific example of what you mean? What is a specific remark made by Morey that exemplifies this “behaviour” you speak of?

I am speaking here of the rhetoric employed against Eastern Orthodoxy in the outline, summary, review, and comments.  For example, he has an archived blog entry about the release of the book (the author, that is, not the reviewer).  
http://biblicalthought.com/blog/author/dr-robert-morey/ toward the bottom of the page, entitled "Oh, Happy Day!"

Besides the rhetoric employed being offensive, one of the comments attached to this blog entry was by an Orthodox man, simply saying:
Quote
As a former Calvinist (now Orthodox), and an acquaintance of Dr. Morey, this should be a fun read.

Long time no see Dr. Morey. Pretty soon, it will be Dr. Robinson.

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/o-happy-day/#comments

Dr. Morey responded in the following way:
Quote
Perry,
I heard a rumour years ago that you had drifted away from Christ after certain painful personal probems in your life. I hope you will read what I have written with an open mind.

Jude 3
DR. Morey

I should have mentioned this when I responded to your post, as it was one of the main reasons that I object to him and find him meanspirited and hurtful.  Dr. Morey's response was patronizing, and an attempt to undermine his credibility by implying that he does not have the emotional or psychological wherewithall to evaluate the credibility of the work, and ostensibly implying that he has been sucked into a cult (which is how he defines Eastern Orthodoxy on his "seminary's" website, noted in one of my posts above) because of those emotional/psychological problems.  It is an ad hominem and, I think, speaks volumes about this man's character.

If you did extensive and in-depth study on Protestant Christianity in consultation with reputable Protestant scholarship and in light of substantial first-hand experience with Protestant Christianity you would certainly make a point of indicating all such things so as to enhance your credibility. I don’t see what Morey did wrong in that regard. Unless ofcourse he’s lying about all that. But we have no way for sure of knowing if he is or not, so it would be foolish to suggest that he is being misleading. The only prudent reaction to his claims in this regard, in my opinion, would simply be to consider the conclusions he makes and the sources he bases them on, and to demonstrate how he has misinterpreted/misrepresented/misused those sources, thereby drawing false conclusions.

You are absolutely correct, and I should have delineated that this is what I meant.  I say that he is no expert because he has so obviously misrepresented the faith of the Orthodox, not so much because of his sources, but rather, his deliberate (I would say, because I find it hard to believe that it is a misunderstanding) misuse to further his agenda and propaganda.

Yes, but everyone has their own interpretation and understanding of when truth and love clash. Some Orthodox Christians would consider Protestants not Christian, and believe that to be a truth that no amount of love can compromise, and that perfect love demands be proclaimed; but anyway, let's not go there because it really is besides the point. Let me try and offer a better example: would you consider Mormons Christians? I would hope not (they deny the very fundamentals of the Christian Faith—the Trinity, Monotheism, the Incarnation), and yet how would you respond to a Mormon who sincerely believes he is a Christian and who would be offended to the core to hear you tell him you think he is not Christian? Morey sincerely believes the Orthodox have departed so far from the faith so as to be considered unchristian; we can fault him for the basis upon which he draws such a conclusion, but objectivity precludes us from accusing him of being offensive/rude/mean in a way we ourselves could not become victim to the very same accusations.

Your example is a good one.  My only response (other than you are correct) would be to say that I'm not so sure Morey sincerely believes that.  I don't know the man personally, so I'm not qualified to judge.  It suffices to say that I am very suspicious.  I think, based on what I've read so far, and what I have seen of his character, (lack of) academic scholarship, etc., that he has an agenda to push, at the very least.

I guess I should not not say that HE is offensive/rude/mean, you are correct.  I guess I should say, rather, that I find the entire premise of the book (and execution of the things I have read) offensive, I find his rhetoric and behavior (noted above as well as in other posts) rude, and the entire purpose of the book, as well as the behaviour, etc. meanspirited (I think that is a more adequate word than "mean" per se).

I certainly think they’re ridiculous; I don’t think they’re mean; not in any reasonably objective sense at least. That said, my point is simply that rather than spending pages making ad hominem attacks against a work we have not even read yet, let us keep such thoughts--thoughts which, in light of what we know of Orthodoxy, seem valid--to ourselves since they have more potential of working against us then for us in the context of a public forum. Just try to empathise; imagine that an Orthodox apologist produced a fantastic refutation of Mormonism for example, and then we, being predisposed in favour of the arguments made therein, stumble across a Mormon forum only to find all the members charging it with being ridiculous, stupid, idiotic, and God knows what else, without even addressing the substance at all and whilst admitting they haven't read the work yet! What would you think of these people? Would your own attitude to this book be likely to be weakened or strengthened?

You are absolutely right, and I hope that the other things I have said will show that I do desire to respond in an academic manner, motivated by truth and love.  Maybe that's a little more clear.  You are more than correct, as well, that I should have more empathy for his readers, rather than for him (which is what I think you were implying by giving the example of Mormons... correct me if I'm wrong, please).  I was directing my disgust at him, not his readers.

Morey claims to have spent much time amongst Orthodox, I’m sure he saw enough loving examples. In the end, neither arguments nor loving examples will suffice to convince someone like Morey--for reasons only God knows. Ultimately, however, I’d think rational discourse to be the more effective instrument were that essential element that concerns his inner man which none of us have access to, were in such a condition so as to be receptible to the Grace that leads to the Truth.

Again, you are correct.  Thank you so much for your clear insights.  I truly am taking them to heart, and, as I said in previous posts, I am delighted to see a movement on OC.net that wants to respond to him.  

I pray I haven't offended you at all, please forgive me if I have.  God bless you for your loving and truthful posts.  Thank you again!!!!
Presbytera Mari

P.S. Sorry for all the parenthetical phrases, I hope they are clear.  I just realized that I may have gotten a bit carried away, however, having been sick today, I'm about ready for bed and don't have the energy to go back and fix them.  My apologies.  Smiley


***Edited the formatting to fix quotes.  Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2008, 11:34:26 PM »

I think he is referring to Frank Shaeffer's father, the famous Protestant minister Francis Shaeffer.

You are correct.  I realized that while I was posting my last (I've gotten a little winded on this topic, I think-- please forgive!) post.  But I do still think that it may be an indicator... most people who know about Francis Shaeffer know of his son, who even had a Christian production company prior to converting, not to mention being as vocal as his father. 

Thanks for pointing that out!  Smiley
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« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2008, 12:49:15 AM »

I agree with Riddikulus. We have to pick our battles. I'll help all of you settle this right now.  HWC, the guy that started the post, has'nt been here since 1/22/08. Furthermore, this is his only post. I've seen these guys come and go. They log on, drop a bombshell and run.
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« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2008, 01:08:32 AM »

Regardless of the fact that the person who started this is not around and that arguing with the convinced is fairly useless, I still feel that some kind of response might be appropriate.  My reason is for people who are like me--convinced of Orthodoxy but not all the way in.  People who are on the way to being convinced but would be derailed by the tripe that Dr. Morey is writing.  For some his seemingly well-researched tome might become a stumblingblock to embracing the Truth of Orthodoxy.   I know that the solidly Orthodox can probably refute this stuff in their sleep, but for those of us who are far less adept and knowledgeable, it might prove to be a great service for someone to forcefully, authoritatively and academically answer these ostensibly scholarly writings.  Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2008, 02:21:15 PM »

Why don't we take a look at Dr. Morey?? Is he an actual theologian in the Reformed movement?? Or is that just a label attached to him??

If so....we may be better served by utilizing some resources and texts on the Reformed Movement from that tradition itself. I'm willing to read this book if that's the route we want to go....



The folks at Orthodoxinfo.com have already interacted with them in the past. This isn't the first time that the Reformed tried to bash Orthodoxy. In the articles called "Miles from the Truth" as well as "The UnReformed Truth:" They deal with what the Reformed have written in one of their journals about Orthodoxy due to alot of their kids becoming Orthodox in Reformed seminaries. 

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_reformed.aspx





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« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2008, 02:37:44 PM »

I agree with you totally.  This was a very insightful post, thank you JNorm!  How would you suggest we go about it (internet vs. book)?  I'm not sure I actually have an answer except to say both, starting with something on goarch.org and the other Orthodox jurisdiction's websites (all of them would be more effective than one of them).  Also, somebody mentioned in the comments the possibility of a debate between him and a priest.  Maybe someone who is well versed in Orthodoxy with a degree and a good reputation should do this.  It would be especially effective, to my mind, if it was actually a convert, as then one of his arguments is automatically short-circuited.  My instinct is to say all three of these things, debate (or dialogue, I should say), internet, and books.  The question is, would his audience of readers be interested?  I would think they would be inclined to dismiss any response from us, unless it was a response that was a direct response to Morey's claims in an open forum (such as a debate/diologue).  They might come to hear Morey, but what they would hear (God willing that He soften their hearts to hear the truth) is the Truth and beauty of Orthodoxy.  Can anyone think of someone who might be willing to take on this ever-important task?



I would like to post my rejoinders on "Orthodoxchristianity.net" forums. As well as my blogs.

I don't know what everyone else is going to do.




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« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2008, 03:08:45 PM »

We'd be happy to host that content. Do you wish to form a team?
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« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »

Yay Team!
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« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2008, 07:21:30 PM »

Just make sure everything that's posted here from that book is properly cited and referenced.  If the guy's willing to publish false claims about the Orthodox, I have very little doubt that he would bring legal action for unintended plaigarism.
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« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2008, 08:06:09 PM »

I would like everyone that is interested in this project to send me an email to anastasios0513@yahoo.com with subject "Refuting Morey"

I will gather a list of participants, and then we can appoint a team lead to move the project along.
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« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2008, 11:39:21 PM »

We'd be happy to host that content. Do you wish to form a team?


Sure! I would love that.






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« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2008, 12:06:26 AM »

So far one person has emailed me. Let's keep the momentum coming!
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« Reply #114 on: February 07, 2008, 06:42:29 AM »

2 so far...let's keep it coming Smiley
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« Reply #115 on: February 07, 2008, 09:28:36 AM »

2 so far...let's keep it coming Smiley

C'mon folks - I know we have more than just 2 people who are willing & able to help with this!
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« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2008, 10:33:54 AM »

I'd like to set a goal of having five participants on this--four active researchers/writers and one team lead/editor. We're 2/5 of the way there.
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« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2008, 12:38:01 PM »

4/5 of the way there (more are welcome of course).
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« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2008, 04:24:18 PM »

Will EkhristosAnesti be joining us? I would love to hear what he has to say about the early coptics and gnostics in Egypt.




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« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2008, 06:47:18 PM »

Will you be compiling and posting this information chapter by chapter here?  Or wait until you're all finished and post once? I'd like to read along, but am not versed enough in early church history/doctrine to participate other any other way. 
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« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2008, 07:53:51 PM »

No proposals have been made but working drafts could be made on the forum and the final version could be posted on the articles section of the site.
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« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2008, 06:21:29 PM »

Looking for 1-2 more volunteers and then we will kick it off.
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« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2008, 10:52:27 PM »

^This seems interesting...I would do it if I had the time. Currently full-time both at work and school. I hope someone can step up to the plate and produce something that refutes the nonsense that's in this book.
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« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2008, 07:05:26 PM »

The book just came in. It's about 170 pages. Some of the issues in the book have been handled by Orthodoxinfo.com

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ca4_loukaris.aspx


http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cyril_Lucaris

For instance, Morey tries the old protestant reformed argument of the Ecumenical Patriarch Cyril Lucaris(1572-1638) and how he tried to make Eastern Orthodoxy into a Reformed protestant church. I know that some Orthodox believe that his confession was a forgery. But whatever the case......it's naive of a protestant to think that the Orthodox are just gonna give up the Faith once handed to the Saints for a secterian and heretical belief system.


Some conservative prespyterians try to use the same argument on the Episcopals/Anglicans when it comes to the WCF(Westminister Confession of Faith).

The Anglicans don't embrace the WCF so the Prespyterians see them as rejecting the true biblical faith. The WCF came about during the British civil war with Oliver Cromwell.


But I'm gonna give it a read and handle the parts I already know about.









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« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2008, 08:59:37 PM »

I'll be contacting all the volunteers shortly. I believe we have all that we need now to make this a go. If anyone else is interested though please let me know.
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« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2008, 12:22:20 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.
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« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2008, 02:21:53 AM »

Link to Perry Robinson (aka Acolyte4236)'s review on Amazon.com:  http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Orthodoxy-Christian-Robert-Morey/dp/1931230358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202883447&sr=1-1
(Scroll down the page to Customer Reviews.  Perry's review is at the top of the list.)

Perry, since you have now posted on this forum, I won't post any text from your review without first receiving your permission to do so.  BTW, a big, hearty welcome to the OC.net discussion forum.  Thank you for finding us. Grin

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« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2008, 02:30:54 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.

So brother have you actually met this man?
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« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2008, 05:23:45 AM »

He did state this:
Quote
I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually.
  Wink
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« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2008, 05:58:13 AM »

He did state this:  Wink

Αριστοκλής have you ever heard of a framing question? It is a question that sounds redundant but is really like asking "Please tell us more about Morey brother Perry" at the risk of sounding like I am forcing an answer out of Perry I phrased it in this innocent way. Smiley sorry for any space on the OC.net servers which I have wasted   laugh
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« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2008, 10:39:41 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.


Just wanted to say welcome to the forum, Perry!  I was absolutely thrilled to see you posting your comments on the website posted earlier in this thread.  I thought Dr. Morey's comment toward you was inflammatory and unfair, and it was nice to see you respond in such a kind, Christian manner to his lack of charity.  I hope that you'll join in our little project.  Please feel free to contribute to the project!  We're glad to have you on the forum, and hope that you'll stay with us for a long time!  Welcome!

God bless you!
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« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2008, 03:08:19 PM »

Feel free to cite the review on Amazon to your heart's content.

I know Morey from when I worked at CRI from 1990-1992. He came in to the BAM show during one week from back east. I carted him around Orange County during his stay for a week or so. After my termination from CRI for whistle blowing, I kept in lose contact with Morey via Mike Stephens who after his termination from CRi for essentially the same reason, went to work for Morey as his program manager. Every few years there'd be another purge of employees by Hanagraaf and I would make the phone rounds letting other axed individuals know what was going on.

In any case, I got wind of Morey's book in December. It grew out of a series on CD he did. I wasn't going to  pay 65 bucks to hear Morey trash talk Orthodoxy. I have been Orthodox for nearly ten years now. There is a lot I don't know. But I do have a good grasp on core theological concepts and the theological "mechanics" or the logic of Orthodox teaching. I wasn't going to listen to hours of Morey on Orthodoxy for 65 bucks. So when I heard about the book, 17 bucks was cheaper than 65 bucks.

Morey is sarcastic and caustic. Its an act. Just don't let him bully you and don't get offended. When he bellows, bellow back and usually he'll shut up, change the subject or run away, like brave sir robin claiming victory with his tail between his legs.

HWC I suspect is Stephen Macasil or some other toady of Morey's. They've beern going around to Orthodox venue's trolling.

Morey's book isn't worth reading. Perhaps it is worth writing a detailed refutation, just because the book is so entirely bad that it may ensnare some ignorant laymen, Protestant or Orthodox. Any Reformed person with half a brain will ignore it and probably read Letham or Fairbairn instead. And although they have significant defects (Fairbain advocates nestorianism, though he seems unaware of it, and Letham advocates Monothelitism, though he doesn't think he is, but he is nonetheless) they aren't anywhere near as bad as Morey's book.

Morey's book is filled with misquotations, ad hom's, non-sequiturs and fallacies of just about every kind imaginable. I suspect that he did not do the "research" but farmed it out to his toadies and then collected the notes and put the book together. A clean 20% of the sources are tracts and popular books-tracts from conciliar press, ya know the small ones from the Jack Sparks/Gilquist crowd and other pop books like the Orthodox Church from A-Z. There are a few scholarly works used like Russell and Pelikan's work on Icons, but they are so grossly misquoted and/or deployed in a misleading fashion as to make a 90 day Watchtower wonder blush.

Morey doesn't have that significant of a voice among Calvinists. Thats for a few basic reasons.Anyone among them with a brain knows his "scholarship" isn't. 2nd he's a reformed baptist and most Reformation folk are Presbys, Dead Dutchmen or Lutherans. Reformed Baptists are kind of like the hyper active kidn the family tolerates at family gatherings but just wishes that they would shut up or go away or get adopted. Morey has a little following, his books are pop and nothing serious.

The best way to deal with the book is to just chart the dishonest methodology. Arguing theology with these people is not a feasible option. First they are so filled with prejudice that they pretty much see you as the spawn of satan. You should have seen the look on their faces when I was out there in January and inserted myself into a conversation while they were talking about the "damnable doctrines" of Orthodoxy and told them I was Orthodox. So is kind of like arguing with any cultist, you have to discredit their authority first by that authority's dishonest behavior. You gotta take the Watchtower out of the Witness before you take the Witness out of the Watchtower. The same thing applies here with Morey's little cult. These people seriously think he is a major Reformed scholar. He isn't and no serious Reformed theologian alive today thinks so either. His work isn't published in peer reviewed venues and this book is self published, which says it all really. But damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead, as it were. Besides, his grasp of Orthodox theology, let alone basic teaching concerning God as well as philosophy and history are so bad, painfully so. So for example, around page 83 or so, if memory serves ( I don't have the bk handy at the moment) he has a chart which is supposed to illustrate how Aristotle posits a dichotomy between essence and form. Uhm, any of my first year students knows that this is false for two basic reasons. First, essence and form mean the SAME THING IN ARISTOTLE. uh, hello? 2nd, Aristotle has a substance/accident dialectic, not dichotomy. Its silly mistakes like these that show that Morey knows little if anything about philosophy or the history of thought.

The book isn't good enough to be wrong. It's just stupid.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 03:15:50 PM by Acolyte4236 » Logged
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« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2008, 03:44:10 PM »

I wonder if I should buy a used copy to use for refutation. Sometimes it's good to know what your enemy thinks. I am surprised that an Evangelical Protestant actually knows who St Cyril is though Wink

I think you may mean 'heard of' and "know who St. Cyril is"...

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« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2008, 07:00:36 PM »

Here is something else to consider. I wouldn't be suprised if either Morey's book or ones like it (Letham, Fairbairn, etc. ) end up in the hands of prot missionaries in Russia or elsewhere. If any of you are competent in Russian (I am not) you might think of translating whatever you put together.
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« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2008, 08:17:47 PM »

Hey Rob,


I was wondering if you could give a critique of Morey's treatment of Plato and Apophatic theology? You know alot about Philosophy so I thought your insight would be helpful.


I was gonna nuetralize some of his speculations by quoting a few things from another Protestant evangelical. Daniel B. Clendenin wrote a few books about Orthodoxy.

In the book called "Eastern Orthodox Christianity: A western perspective" he writes



"The hymnology of the fourth -century Christian poet Ephrem the Syrian adds its choruses to the testimony of the liturgy. Since Ephrem wrote in Syriac and was probably ignorant of Greek, his hyms are significant refutations of the common charge that the Orthodox doctrine of theosis is only a pale imitation of Hellenistic philosophy."
page 129 copyright 1994,2003 by Daniel B. Clendenin from the book "Eastern Orthodox Christianity(second edition) A western perspective. Published by Baker Academic


I was gonna quote this because Morey thinks the Eastern Orthodox view of Deification came from Paganism.

I was gonna give a mixture of both Orthodox and Protestant sources so that the reader could see that Morey was wrong.









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« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 08:27:25 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

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Tags: heresy Dr. Robert Morey 
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