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Poll
Question: Anyone want to discuss this?
Discuss a new book, anyone? - 2 (4.8%)
Who wants to discuss Dr. Morey's new book? - 2 (4.8%)
I don't want to discuss some heretic's book. - 34 (81%)
Who made this poll?  Honestly?  I want more options! - 4 (9.5%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Morey's Book on Eastern Orthodoxy, The Body of Christ  (Read 21309 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2008, 01:21:11 AM »

Her Divine Worship, Lizzie I, says it will be acceptable, so long as the proper offerings of fish are made.

Tuna??
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2008, 01:38:20 AM »

Tuna??

Her Divine Worship says she prefers grilled Ahi Tuna.
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2008, 01:47:02 AM »

Her Divine Worship says she prefers grilled Ahi Tuna.

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2008, 01:59:51 AM »

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue

Is outrage! Herewith, has the penny-pinching and Anti-Cat tone of this post been noted!
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2008, 06:52:08 AM »

I thought you guys would all HELP me in refuting these arguments. But you just accused me of looking for a debate. I never said anything about debating. I said that Morey was a Presbyterian Calvinist from Westminster who would probably not be favorable to Orthodoxy. Instead, you all charge me with being the one with a bone to pick. This is silly and irrational. Forget about it. I'll find somewhere else to "discuss" this. It has been hard to find anyone looking to discuss the book. If there is a defense of the Orthodox faith out there, I'll find it. What makes me nervous is that so far, all I get are ad hominem slurs about Morey. am I the only one who sees this?
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2008, 11:18:56 AM »

I thought you guys would all HELP me in refuting these arguments. But you just accused me of looking for a debate. I never said anything about debating. I said that Morey was a Presbyterian Calvinist from Westminster who would probably not be favorable to Orthodoxy. Instead, you all charge me with being the one with a bone to pick. This is silly and irrational. Forget about it. I'll find somewhere else to "discuss" this. It has been hard to find anyone looking to discuss the book. If there is a defense of the Orthodox faith out there, I'll find it. What makes me nervous is that so far, all I get are ad hominem slurs about Morey. am I the only one who sees this?

Harold,

The website you cited has a paragraph that says the site will be monitoring discussions across Orthodox forums and providing links to these discussions. Then you come here and post several messages in different folders telling us to go read this book without any apparent commentary on your part until you are challenged.  This just seems fishy. If you are indeed a genuine seeker looking for discussion, you could have made a more sincere beginning here. If you are indeed genuine, then tell us about yourself and why you want to discuss this book. You may find someone who is willing to discuss it. I would buy it and discuss it with you if they had used copies that were cheap and did not directly profit Dr Morey.

Yes there are some ad hominems on Dr Morey. That is to be expected because the review of his work reveals some very tired and worn out anti-Orthodox arguments like the "paganism slowly crept in" argument. You must understand Harold that we Orthodox are accustomed to being attacked in the most silly and absurd ways by uneducated Evangelicals who claim we are pagans that we don't really take such attacks seriously anymore. If Dr Morey's books have more substance to them, the review of them certainly doesn't make us look favorably at it.

Have you read Dr Morey's book, and do you have any specific questions?

In Christ,

Anastasios
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2008, 12:45:27 PM »

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue
Careful about changing from stumps to cats. That sounds like a dangerous Roman innovation.  angel
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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2008, 02:56:06 PM »

Anastasios,
I could not have said it any better. Thank you.

A friend of mine who was introduced to Orthodoxy and will be entering the Church commented on another poster who made the statement that he would like to see a culture war between Protestants and Orthodoxy. His response to this was:

Quote
Evangelicals burn three-tiered crosses in piles and push legislation through the Republicans restricting the sale of icons to people over 21. The Orthodox, in response, scream "IS OUTRAGE!" in unison and utter something that would be incredibly witty and devastating if only it could be translated from its native Greco-Anglo pidgin.

I found it amusing.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2008, 04:27:45 PM »

I agree that Harold's initial post was susceptible to being reasonably interpreted as having an agenda, but then again I think Christian charity should have compelled us to give him the benefit of the doubt until his intention became clearer.

I also think some people may be unaware of how potentially self-damaging the various responses of ridicule and mockery are. If some people are inclined to dismiss the book based on a sketchy review of the author's work, then how much credibility should those same people be taken when it comes to eventually critiquing the substance of the work itself? If the agenda of supporters of this book is to spread this propoganda to Orthodox forums, then we should take that as an opportunity to promote Orthodoxy to a new audience. Instead, we are potentially reinforcing any negative dispositions they may already have.

I will personally see if I can try and get my hands on this book; I don't know about purchasing it, since I have a long list of works on my own Church to buy before considering anything else. I do have some experience with Dr. Robert Morey insofar as his Trinitarian apologetics and polemics against Islam are concerned. I found him to be helpful in regard to the former; Protestants usually do a good job at proving how honest Scriptural exegesis supports the doctrine of the All-Holy Trinity. Sure their methodology is in a way flawed (the foundation of the doctrine of the All-Trinity is not the Scriptures, but the Life and Worship of the Church), but many of their arguments and conclusions can be made to sit comfortably with an Orthodox approach to the Scriptures. As far as his polemics against Islam go, I found them to be terribly weak; they fascinated me in the initial stages of my study--Morey has the rhetorical ability to fascinate--but the more deeper I got into my research the more I realised how far left of field his arguments and conclusions were from that which serious scholarship would support.

As far as this latest work is concerned, I would be most interested to engage with his take on early Coptic Church history in particular. As far as the summary of Morey's arguments and conclusions in the review go (and I understand that it may not be a very good representation of what Morey actually argues/concludes), the idea that there was a large initial Jewish base over-taken by a large base of pagan converts who constituted the "Orthodox Church" seems rather reductionist and may be a somewhat confused conclusion; it's certainly not a take on history that I have read from any serious Egyptologist/Coptologist (Bagnall's Egypt in Late Antiquity, is, as far as I was lead to believe by Professor Heike Behlmer, Coptologist at Macquarie University, the standard authority on the subject--Bagnall is not Orthodox; see also Davis' Early Coptic Papacy--Davis is Protestant). It's reductionist insofar as it seems to divide the early groups into "authentic Jewish Christians" and "pagan-convert Orthodox Christians." Since (in the review at least) there is no account of the significant Gnostic sect that the Orthodox were primarily contending with in the early centuries, it seems like Morey may have confused Gnostics (who did indeed represent a hellenisation of Christianity) with the Orthodox. This may be the result of his unwittingly adopting the conclusion of scholars like Bauer who suggest that in the first few centuries of Coptic Christianity, the Church was dominated by Gnostics who peacefully co-existed with the Orthodox (and that as such, were essentially "the Orthodox" of the early centuries until the reign of Pope Demetrius at least). This view has subsequently been discredited (see Davis' Early Coptic Papacy) upon the basis of manuscript evidence. Anyway, I can't really keep arguing against assumptions I am making from a third-person review, so I will wait till I get my hands on this book before making further comments.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 04:28:09 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2008, 08:44:47 PM »

EkhristosAnesti, this is what I was looking for. I agree that Morey's Trinity book is good. I consider it superb because of the philosophical introduction that discusses epistemology and the "transcendental method." I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity? Because if so, that is a valid argument against Morey's book. I ordered it last week and it should arrive early this week, and until then all I have to go by is that review. Thanks, I'll be back once the book arrives.
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2008, 08:54:43 PM »

EkhristosAnesti, this is what I was looking for. I agree that Morey's Trinity book is good. I consider it superb because of the philosophical introduction that discusses epistemology and the "transcendental method." I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity? Because if so, that is a valid argument against Morey's book. I ordered it last week and it should arrive early this week, and until then all I have to go by is that review. Thanks, I'll be back once the book arrives.

Harold,

I can understand your having questions about this book you may want to ask but it sounds like you haven't even read it (you mentioned you ordered it and are waiting for its arrival). So then, how could you be in the position to discuss it or ask questions about it on various forums? Shouldn't you at least read the book then post your questions for discussion? I am a little confused.

sincerely, Tamara
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2008, 10:09:14 PM »

Yes, I should wait until I read it before posting more direct questions. I thought that there was a greater awareness of the book and its contents/arguments. the online review said that there were discussion forums on the internet. So I searched for some, found this site (and 2 or 3 others), posted a question asking if there was any interest in discussing it (I thought the book would arrive yesterday - Sat), and that is when I was attacked in the most unfriendly of ways from several members here. I didn't think this was a private, members only, hate the new guy board, and now I know it isn't all that, but it will always be from some. When I ordered the book from Faith Defenders, I was emailed a PDF sample that gives 3 page teasers from each chapter, and reading that brought many questions. It was premature on my part to ask for participants in a discussion, but I thought that the book was already something that was addressed somewhere online. I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2008, 10:16:52 PM »

I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.

I have a degree in this subject and can recommend:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=39111&netp_id=300501&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=details
 (really discounted right now!)

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Penguin-History/dp/0140231994/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200881773&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Penguin-History/dp/0140231994/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200881773&sr=1-1

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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2008, 10:20:33 PM »

HWC,

I'm glad you have stuck it out with us.  I look forward to your questions.
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« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 02:18:07 AM »

Anastasios,

I have the first one (JND Kelly) and I think the Chadwick title, but it's not Penguin series.  I have "the Early Church" by Chadwick - Dorset.  Is this the same book?  I also recently picked up a used copy of "Early Christianity: Origins and Evolution" ed. Ian Hazlett.  This one is a commemorative work honoring W.H.C. Frend. 
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« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2008, 03:01:19 AM »

I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I haven't read any of his written works on Islam; I heard a series of audio lectures by him entitled "The Secret Teachings of Muhammed." His style was very sensationalistic and polemical, and given my deeply engraved predisposition against Islam at the time, I received what he had to say quite enthusiastically and unquestionably. After I started testing out some of his arguments in the course of live intercourse with Muslims I realised just how weak they were; I realised that if I was going to get anywhere with Muslims in inter-faith debate, I would really need to start doing my homework so as to make sure that fantastic claims of the sort Morey was making actually stand up to scrutiny--which they didn't.

Quote
I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity?


Well, yes, at least those ones we could call "Orthodox" (though most secular scholars would think we're being anachronistic and prejudiced in so doing). The point is that these Gnostics existed with uneasy tension alongside the Orthodox because the Church at the time had not yet had enough time and impetus--in light of her being in the early stages of her development and especially given her occupation with persecution--to establish her self-identity so as to mark and enforce a clear-cut theological and ecclesiastical barrier between the Orthodox and Gnostics. The fact there is no mention of Gnostics as a distinct group of early believers in the review of Morey's discussion on this issue seems to suggest to me that Morey confounds the early Gnostics and the Orthodox (both of whom were largely made up of believers with pagan background).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:02:21 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2008, 03:12:48 AM »

Yes, I should wait until I read it before posting more direct questions. I thought that there was a greater awareness of the book and its contents/arguments. the online review said that there were discussion forums on the internet. So I searched for some, found this site (and 2 or 3 others), posted a question asking if there was any interest in discussing it (I thought the book would arrive yesterday - Sat), and that is when I was attacked in the most unfriendly of ways from several members here. I didn't think this was a private, members only, hate the new guy board, and now I know it isn't all that, but it will always be from some. I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.

I would like to apologize for my conduct here. Yet at the same time, I would like to point out that I do not believe our words were specifically intended as a personal attack on you, but rather shoddy "scholarship" regarding our Church itself. I would also point out that certainly some of the comments were mocking the position of many that we are a socalled "pagan" church. The absolute absurdity of some of the claims you see out there make it difficult to even begin to refute them, as they have no academic or scholarly ground to begin with. I regret that I myself may display a lack of Christian charity at times.

Yours in Christ
John
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« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2008, 04:43:13 AM »

Dear Harold,

I just dug up my notes on Bagnall's work which I referred to earlier as being a standard authority on the subject of the early history of Christian Egypt. As far as Bagnall's take on Egypt's Jewish Christians, here is what he has to say:

“Alexandria in the first century had an enormous Jewish community, and this is generally taken to be the basis for the earliest foundation of Christianity. The virtual extermination of the Jewish population of Egypt early in Hadrian’s reign both wiped out this matrix and eliminated any possibility that Christianity could spread throughout Egypt by way of the Jewish communities in the metropoleis.” (p. 278)

Nothing about suppression by some vague category of "pagan-converts to Christianity." My notes on this work were rather thorough; I'm sure I would've noted something had there been any suggestion of a delieberate effort on behalf of the Church to suppress a Jewish form of Christianity.

The only other Jewish-Christian community in Egypt that I can think of was one that subscribed to the lost Gospel to the Hebrews. This group was considered somewhat heretical, I believe, by the early Church. Nothing of this work remains except for what is quoted by the early Fathers. Given Morey's take on the infallibility and innerancy of the Scriptures (which I assume applies to form i.e. the canon, as much as it does to content) I would hardly think that he would attempt to promote this group as representative of normative Christianity.
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« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2008, 11:21:48 PM »

Just started reading a new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey.
*
This snippet from Stephen Macasil's review shows that the Protestants are smarting from the number of young Evangelicals converting...

"Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" by Dr. Robert Morey, is an absolute must for the Christian apologist and evangelist.  The Eastern Orthodox religion has recently stormed across Protestant Evangelicalism, sweeping away thousands of converts.  Today, Eastern Orthodox professors are teaching young and naïve Protestant Evangelicals in Evangelical universities and seminaries, and converting them to Eastern Orthodoxy!"

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2008, 11:41:33 PM »

*
This snippet from Stephen Macasil's review shows that the Protestants are smarting from the number of young Evangelicals converting...

"Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" by Dr. Robert Morey, is an absolute must for the Christian apologist and evangelist.  The Eastern Orthodox religion has recently stormed across Protestant Evangelicalism, sweeping away thousands of converts.  Today, Eastern Orthodox professors are teaching young and naïve Protestant Evangelicals in Evangelical universities and seminaries, and converting them to Eastern Orthodoxy!"

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/


This conversion experience is exactly how my priest became Orthodox. He was attending Fuller Seminary and he said the Greek Orthodox priest, who taught the Biblical Greek class, was his initiation into Orthodox spirituality. After he graduated from Fuller he was a youth minister for several years in a Vineyard evangelical church but the superficial worship service didn't compare to what he found in the Divine Liturgy. My priest has chrismated 20+ people every year for the past seven years I have attended his parish. Many of those he has chrismated were former evangelicals. I wish I knew the name of that Greek priest. I would love to let him know how the seeds he planted have grown and produced fruit.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2008, 11:45:58 PM »

"By using the education that this book provides in evangelism and apologetics, you will be able to irrefutably expose the rotten pillars of Eastern Orthodoxy.  Perhaps by God's sovereign grace He may save some."

Notice the teaching that we are going to Hell.

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2008, 05:40:55 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades", who knows. But there is a protestant ministry with that name. The book came today, by the way.
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2008, 06:00:47 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades",
*
No, it's for real.

Chapter 9:   THE STRANGE CASE OF HOW 2,000 PROTESTANT EVANGELICALS ENDED UP JOINING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

In early 1987, some 2,000 members of the now-dissolved Evangelical Orthodox Church were received into full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church--the largest ever mass conversion to Orthodoxy in North American history. Even more remarkable was the fact that the leaders and clergy of the erstwhile E.O.C. group were former evangelical Protestants, with backgrounds in Campus Crusade for Christ, Youth for Christ, and Young Life, and degrees from institutions like Wheaton College, Dallas Seminary, Fuller Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Seattle Pacific University, Oral Roberts University, Lincoln Christian College, and Biola University.

As one of the former E.O.C. priests, Peter Gillquist, a former regional director of Campus Crusade and now an archpriest of the Antiochan Orthodox Christian Diocese of North America, asks rhetorically in his book "Becoming Orthodox," "whatever would possess two thousand Bible-believing, blood-bought, Gospel-preaching, Christ-centred, life-long evangelical Protestants to embrace this Orthodox faith so enthusiastically... [to] end up embracing historic ecclesiology, liturgical worship, and sacrament?" What indeed?

Fr. Gillquist relates how he became increasingly disillusioned with what he was accomplishing as a Protestant "parachurch" evangelist. He recalls seeing a button on someone's shirt that read: "God isn't dead-- Church is." "Amen," Gillquist said to himself, "Not only are converts falling by the wayside, but the churches are so pathetic that they can't handle the ones who do come. The Church is in captivity to an invisible, present- day Babylon!"

In 1973, Peter Gillquist joined a core group of six other burned-out campus evangelists in a quest to discover what had happened to the New Testament Church. "Not too far into our investigation," writes Jon Braun, one of the seven, "we were shocked to discover that there were whole chapters, as it were, of Church history with which we were totally unfamiliar. And in our quest to get to the bottom of what was missing, we made a monumental discovery... the historic Orthodox Church. [Up until then] we didn't even know it still existed."49

"As Protestants," observed Jack Sparks, another member of the group, "we know our way back to A.D. 1517 and the Reformation. As evangelicals--Bible people--we know our way up to A.D. 95 or so, when the Apostle John finished writing the Revelation. It's time we fill the gap in between!"

The problem, Sparks allowed, is that "everybody claims to be the New Testament Church. The Catholics say they are; the Baptists say they are; the Church of Christ says it is--and nobody else is. We need to find out `who's right?'"

The group of seven decided to research and study every aspect of Christian history they could uncover until they discovered "who's right." They agreed going into this project that wherever their "phantom search for the perfect Church" led, they would resolve to do and be whatever the New Testament Church did and was. "If we found we were wrong, we would change," says Gillquist.

What the seven seekers discovered indeed revolutionized their vision of what the true Church should be. They discovered that Christian worship was liturgical from the earliest recorded times. The original Greek text of Acts 13:2 refers to "leitourgounton"--"liturgy."

They discovered that the Fathers of the ancient Apostolic Church perceived the consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, as He Himself affirmed at the last Supper, and that from the earliest times the Sacrament of Holy Communion was the centrepiece of Christian worship.

They discovered that the episcopal orders of clergy date from the First Century, and that Ignatius of Antioch was bishop of the Church there from A.D. 67 to 107. Acts 1:20 (K.J.V.) uses the term "bishopric" ("episcopen" in the original Greek), although some modern Protestant translations paraphrase it. St. Paul speaks of bishops and deacons in Philippians 1:1-2 and 1 Timothy 3: 1-12, and bishops in Titus 1:7. Acts 15 refers to James the brother of Jesus, who was Bishop of Jerusalem, rendering final judgment in a dispute.

They discovered that the New Testament Church was Sacramental, believing that Baptism really is for the remission of sins and the giving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

They discovered that "tradition" was the tradition of the very early Church. St, Paul wrote: "Therefore brethren stand fast and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15). He affirms tradition again in 2 Thess 3:6. The tradition St. Paul speaks of is the teachings of the Apostolic Church, which were considered authoritative long before the New Testament canon was ratified.

These discoveries led to the establishment of a new Church denomination: the Evangelical Orthodox Church, which incorporated the ancient doctrines and forms of worship that the seven scholars had identified in their historical research. At that point, they still had virtually no knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but once contact was finally established, the journey began in earnest that eventually led most of the former evangelicals into the ancient Apostolic Orthodox Faith. It's a fascinating tale, well told in Peter Gillquist's book.

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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2008, 08:25:40 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades", who knows. But there is a protestant ministry with that name. The book came today, by the way.

Nope it's for real, like Irish Hermit said.  Fr. Peter Gillquist wrote a book about their conversion called "Becoming Orthodox". And I think there was recent podcast about one of the last churches to come into communion.  Is that right? 
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2008, 09:16:00 AM »

Nope it's for real, like Irish Hermit said. 
Harold,

I think that PrincessMommy has hit on the answer!

The best way to understand Morey's take on Orthodxoy is to read some of the books of the thousands of Evangelical Protestants who have become Orthodox.  On their journey out of Evagelicalism they have had to face and deal with every one of the problems which Morey addresses in his book.

The ex-director of Campus Crusade, now Fr Peter Gillquist, seems to be the man with the gift for writing...


"Coming Home: Why Protestant Clergy Are Becoming Orthodox" by Peter E. Gillquist
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Home-Protestant-Becoming-Orthodox/dp /0962271322/ref=sr_1_1/103-0095830-6016634?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201007088&sr=1-1
 
"Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith"
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/0962271330/ref=sr_1_3/103-0095830-6016634?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201007088&sr=1-3
 
 

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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2008, 02:47:31 PM »

Here: http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071110/FEAT04/711100376
There is a story of a Pentecostal Minister who led a large portion of his Church to convert to Catholicism after studying the documents of the Early Church. I  wonder if Jones considered Eastern Orthodoxy and if the group that Fr. Ambrose mentioned ever considered Catholicism.
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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2008, 03:00:21 PM »

Here: http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071110/FEAT04/711100376
There is a story of a Pentecostal Minister who led a large portion of his Church to convert to Catholicism after studying the documents of the Early Church. I  wonder if Jones considered Eastern Orthodoxy and if the group that Fr. Ambrose mentioned ever considered Catholicism.

Don't know about Jones's group, but Fr Peter Gillquist's group certainly did consider Rome. It's in the second book above.
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« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2008, 11:50:49 PM »

Chapter 9:   THE STRANGE CASE OF HOW 2,000 PROTESTANT EVANGELICALS ENDED UP JOINING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

In early 1987, some 2,000 members of the now-dissolved Evangelical Orthodox Church were received into full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church--the largest ever mass conversion to Orthodoxy in North American history.
*
That statement needs correcting.

About 80 years ago approximately 100,000 Catholics converted to Orthodoxy in the States. 

If you google the name of Alexis Toth you will turn up information.
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2008, 12:18:01 AM »

*
That statement needs correcting.

About 80 years ago approximately 100,000 Catholics converted to Orthodoxy in the States. 

If you google the name of Alexis Toth you will turn up information.

True, but 'dem Catoliks 'r like dose Ortydox folks- ain't real Christians... Wink
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2008, 12:28:50 AM »

True, but 'dem Catoliks 'r like dose Ortydox folks- ain't real Christians... Wink
*
I read elsewhere that the reviewer of Morey's book Stephen Macasil

* uses Jack Chick as a publishing outlet
* has an honorary degree from a Pakistani College which was declared to be fraudulent, and then revoked.

If such are Morey's friends and supporters, well.... 'nuf said.
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2008, 05:21:40 PM »

I happened upon this little jewel by Dr. Morey discussing his (what was then) forthcoming book.  If for noone else this post kind of gave me a little view of the author and his way of dealing with people and subjects.

 
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Archives Posts
O Happy Day!  http://biblicalthought.com/blog/author/dr-robert-morey/
November 3rd, 2007 by Dr. Robert Morey
 

By the grace of God, I have finished a new book that defines, documents, and then refutes Eastern Orthodoxy. Books that promote EO are coming out by “Christian” publishers every day. Even some Reformed ministries sell some of these books. I have to believe they do so out of pure ignorance.

My examination of Orthodoxy has taken almost five years. I began by attending their seminars and conferences. I sat quietly listening to Protestants who had converted to EO. I bought their books, tracts, videos and tapes. I acted dumb and asked a zillion questions: What is the best book on deification? Where is the best Orthodox seminary? Can I visit it and do research in their library? Who are the best Orthodox thinkers? What textbooks did you use in seminary?

I traveled to their seminaries and famous churches until I fully understood what they taught and on what arguments they based their teachings. I watched them cross themselves, kiss icons, and wave incense before them as they stood. The last place I went to research EO was the Library of Congress. I sat there from the moment they opened to when they closed reading what they had on EO. The LC is the secret of all my footnotes and documentation. I keep going there until the research is done.

The book (Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?) will be at the printers in a month and ready for distribution in six weeks. The Lord has already indicated its effectiveness when a local Orthodox priest stormed into our church and tried to interrupt our worship to demand that I not be allowed to publish the book. My staff threw him out and told him that Dr. Morey would not storm into his church, disrupt his service and attack him in front of his people. I later asked his Bishop for an apology but they have refused to do so. Evidently, they feel they can disrupt a Reformed church at will. If we went and did the same to them, you would hear their squeals and condemnations for daring to interrupt their divine worship. The mad Greek Orthodox priest only encouraged me to continue defending the gospel against all the heresies and false churches that surround us today.

Question: Do you think that priest owed us an apology for disrupting our service? Should we go over to his church and disrupt his service?
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2008, 05:25:15 PM »

Dr. Morey seems a bit childish.
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« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 03:45:42 PM »

I agree that usually people should be treated with courtesy, especially inquirers.  But in the case of Dr Morey, he has obviously done his homework and rejected Christ's Church. Now, there may be some underlying reason that is the case, but from the shrill tone of that review (which I bet was written by one of his friends) I think it is clear that he is against the faith and preaching heresy bare-headed. In this instance, limited ridicule could be acceptable, if the ridicule has a purpose (the Fathers often ridiculed heretics that were teaching heresy bare-headed, but they obviously had a reason to do so). Whether the ridicule above had a purpose or not would have to be judged by the reader.

Dr. Morey is a Reformed Protestant and all they seem to care about is there 5 point system of Calvinism, determinism, and the deterministic teachings that came from Saint Augustine's later writings (from 417 A.D. to about 423 A.D.)
And the works of John Calvin.

That is what they are trying to defend and fight for.

From what I read from the review at the website it was corny. Most forms of Protestantism must twist history in order to prove their own peculiar teachings right.

I think an Orthodox Apologetic group should give a counter to this book just so that those who don't know about history or doctrine won't get lead astray.



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« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 05:03:08 PM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.
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« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2008, 01:47:33 AM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.
Are you asking that someone from the OC.net admin/mod team disable the link?  If so, why?  The blog entry may indeed rankle our Orthodox sensitivities, but the link is relevant to this discussion and is not in violation of forum rules, so I don't see any reason why we should shut the blog link down.
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« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2008, 05:27:08 AM »

I just read the comments on the blog that ComingHome posted.  They're so sad!  It breaks my heart that anyone would read and believe the absolute rubbish, lies, and blasphemy that this man is publishing as fact!  I feel like I'm crying in my soul that anyone would say or believe such terrible things about Christ's Holy Church.  May our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ save us from this madness and open the hearts of these people to see your Truth.
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« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2008, 08:48:57 AM »

^ AMen Presbytera
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« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2008, 02:25:36 PM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.

ASERB:  If I have somehow offended your sensibilities or gone beyond what is appropriate, I sincerely apologize for this.

I felt that the post I made was germane to our discussion and gave a very clear picture of the kind of person we are dealing with in Dr. Morey.  I accept the very real possibility that I was mistaken.

Again, if I have offended in any way, I am sorry!  Any harm was totally unintentional.
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« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2008, 04:45:53 PM »

ComingHome: You did not offend me. My sentiments were better expressed by GreekChef. No you did me a service and enlightened me to what a whack job this guy Morey is and frankly, I feel as if it is almost beneath us to discuss his ideas and give him a platform here on our site.
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« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2008, 09:01:24 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts
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« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2008, 09:25:03 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts

I agree,

Many Protestants will eat his stuff up. They already have a bent to find some fault with us so it will be easy for them to believe the stuff he's putting out. I think an apologetic to his book will be a good thing.

I'm willing to help out.



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« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2008, 09:28:32 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts

As much as it pains me to say this, I must agree wholeheartedly that we have to be prepared to respond to this type of cancerous falsehood, so as to prevent it from infecting too many people, if you know what I mean.  I find this guy's work apallingly offensive, utterly ridiculous, and just plain mean.  However, we must be wise as serpants and gentle as doves. This means being informed and ready to respond with love. In the face of such belligerant vitriol, we must respond with truth and love. I, for one, plan to take a long look at what he is accusing us of, so as to adequately form a response. May the Holy Spirit enlighten us and give yus the strength, wisdom, and love to teach His truth to those who might get swept away by such hateful lies!
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« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2008, 09:54:02 PM »

I agree this must be kept academic. It's a bit of a double-standard to complain about Morey's work using such subjective and emotional terms like "mean", "ridiculous" etc. We pretty much do what Dr. Morey does to every heteredox and heretical sect, and that no doubt comes across as being just as "mean" and "ridiculous" to them when we undermine their faith using similar rhetoric and making similar claims regarding the extensiveness of our research etc.

Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but the difference is that we preach the truth!" clearly does not get what I am saying. Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but our intention is not to trash other faiths, but rather we are motivated by love which demands the truth be told", still does not get what I am saying. Moral outcry might be effective in inspiring fear and caution amongst those who already belong to the faith, hence steering them clear of such material, but it is rather counter-productive to convincing those who are predisposed against Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2008, 10:35:54 PM »


Being not as Orthodox as I am going to be, I do not feel qualified to aid you in this matter. 
But I would surely love to read the results of your efforts as they would help educate me in my own personal struggles.
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« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2008, 10:54:41 PM »

I agree this must be kept academic. It's a bit of a double-standard to complain about Morey's work using such subjective and emotional terms like "mean", "ridiculous" etc. We pretty much do what Dr. Morey does to every heteredox and heretical sect, and that no doubt comes across as being just as "mean" and "ridiculous" to them when we undermine their faith using similar rhetoric and making similar claims regarding the extensiveness of our research etc.

Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but the difference is that we preach the truth!" clearly does not get what I am saying. Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but our intention is not to trash other faiths, but rather we are motivated by love which demands the truth be told", still does not get what I am saying. Moral outcry might be effective in inspiring fear and caution amongst those who already belong to the faith, hence steering them clear of such material, but it is rather counter-productive to convincing those who are predisposed against Orthodoxy.

I didn't say it shouldn't be academic. of course it should. although as FrChris said, "we can't argue people into our churches. we can only love them into our churches."

I react the way I do out of shock and hurt that anyone would do what this guy does. I have never personally encountered this. I've lived in the Bible belt my whole life, and have met plenty of people who either didn't kbow about Orthodoxy or didn't agree with it. But I have never encountered anything like this before.

you assume that all of us behave in the manner which you described. I can only account for myself when I say, while I don't agree with Protestant doctrine, I would never presume to behave that way, nor would I ever presume to say that I am an authority on anything Protestant. My grandmother and all of her siade of my family was/is Protestant. I would never treat them that way or disrespect them by questioning whether or not they are Christians, or anyone else, for that matter.  I love them too much. That is not the example of Orthodoxy that I want to be. the example we should be is truth and love.

And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean. But that does not mean I will respond to him the way he has presented himself. Again, that is not what Orthodoxy is about. What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?
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