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Poll
Question: Anyone want to discuss this?
Discuss a new book, anyone? - 2 (4.8%)
Who wants to discuss Dr. Morey's new book? - 2 (4.8%)
I don't want to discuss some heretic's book. - 34 (81%)
Who made this poll?  Honestly?  I want more options! - 4 (9.5%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Morey's Book on Eastern Orthodoxy, The Body of Christ  (Read 32378 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 18, 2008, 03:30:02 AM »

Just started reading a new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey.
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 03:37:24 AM »

Does anyone want to discuss the new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey?  There is a review online at biblicalthought.com describing the book chapter by chapter. anyone?
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 03:37:24 AM »

Just started reading a new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey.

Gosh, I never knew that there was a group of religions that went by the name "Eastern Orthodoxy". Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 04:09:27 AM »

It would be interesting but I wouldn't want to pay 16 dollars to support his heresy.  From the synopsis it seems that he has actually read up on the topic unlike most Evangelicals, but some of it is rather stupid sounding just from the review of the book, like the Ancient Egyptian paganization theory and statements like, "This is well-documented and beyond refutation." (pg. 67) and "This chapter is probably the most difficult material to comprehend, but continuing in the same tradition of his previous 44 books, Dr. Morey simplifies big concepts into bite-sized fragments."

Also I noticed:

Quote
One advantage in purchasing multiple copies of the book is because, usually, Protestant converts to Eastern Orthodoxy like to read, and read a lot.  So, this book acts like a big fat tract that will get read, and as I mentioned earlier, perhaps by God's sovereign grace He'll save some.  There will also be mass discussions on the internet.  So, get your copies today and get up-to-speed so you can participate intelligently in these highly influential discussion forums.  See biblicalthought.com for forum and blog listings discussing this book and its topics.

So I wonder if you are a troll sent by this site to:

a) cause us to all go read this book and "convert" to its heresy
b) make the author lots of money off book sales
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 04:19:05 AM by Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2008, 04:18:15 AM »


MODERATION:
Please do not cross post.
You have already posted a one liner advertising this third rate rubbish http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3406.msg203498.html#msg203498.
If you want to discuss Orthodox Christianity vs. Evangelical Protestantism, then please do so in the Orthodox - Other Christian forum.
Don't waste our time by just trying to get us to buy a book.
Please respect our forum and don't use it as cheap advertising for something you can't sell to anyone with any brain.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 04:24:44 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2008, 05:01:04 AM »


Please respect our forum and don't use it as cheap advertising for something you can't sell to anyone with any brain.

My dear George, are you suggesting that this person will find people here without brains?  Shocked Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2008, 08:12:18 AM »

Gosh, I never knew that there was a group of religions that went by the name "Eastern Orthodoxy". Tongue

So we're all the descendants of Egyptian pagans that took over the church?  Can't be true; we don't have any icons of cats anywhere.
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2008, 03:16:14 PM »

My brother in law is a Mennonite Pastor, I am sure he will pick up a copy if he finds out it exists. Roll Eyes Although, I won't be volunteering the title as good reading material. Grin

It is interesting that in the little review of the book they phrase the sentance about Cyril's death to make it appear that he was murdered by the Eastern Orthodox church.
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 06:57:38 PM »

My dear George, are you suggesting that this person will find people here without brains?  Shocked Tongue

Sure, if the zombies get here first.
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 07:49:48 PM »

Sure, if the zombies get here first.


That's an acute possibility. I've just been reading Dr. Morey's blog, and they already seem to have got to him.
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2008, 07:53:07 PM »

That's an acute possibility. I've just been reading Dr. Morey's blog, and they already seem to have got to him.

Braaaaiiinnnnnsssss........
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 08:02:52 PM »

It's amazing how many of these Evangelicals think that smug self-satisfaction is a substitute for intelligent academic discourse.
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 12:37:08 AM »

I wonder if I should buy a used copy to use for refutation. Sometimes it's good to know what your enemy thinks. I am surprised that an Evangelical Protestant actually knows who St Cyril is though Wink
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 01:57:53 AM »

Indeed!  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 02:08:21 AM »

I wonder if I should buy a used copy to use for refutation. Sometimes it's good to know what your enemy thinks. I am surprised that an Evangelical Protestant actually knows who St Cyril is though Wink

Quote from the blog: By using the education that this book provides in evangelism and apologetics, you will be able to irrefutably expose the rotten pillars of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't know, Anastasios, it looks like it's pretty powerful medicine that we pagan ritualists should stay away from. Tongue
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 09:16:30 AM »

Quote from the blog: By using the education that this book provides in evangelism and apologetics, you will be able to irrefutably expose the rotten pillars of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't know, Anastasios, it looks like it's pretty powerful medicine that we pagan ritualists should stay away from. Tongue

We'll have to consult our cat-god idols to know for sure, though.
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2008, 09:32:03 AM »

oom sma ram oom sam ram oom sam ram  laugh
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 10:00:18 AM »

We'll have to consult our cat-god idols to know for sure, though.

The auspices are not good. The Idolised One has turned his nose up at the evening offering. We who are his slaves are in a tizzy. It does not bode well for the reading of the "Book of Morey".
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2008, 11:22:31 AM »

I wonder if I should buy a used copy to use for refutation. Sometimes it's good to know what your enemy thinks. I am surprised that an Evangelical Protestant actually knows who St Cyril is though Wink

I was thinking the same thing.  I'm also not comfortable ridiculing those who disagree, no matter how flawed their arguments may be.  I'm certainly glad no one treated me that way when I was first inquiring.
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2008, 03:58:51 PM »

This would be the same Morey of "Allah the Moon-God" fame, which Jack Chick found so useful against Muslims. Let's just say there are better apologetics out there.  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 05:30:15 PM »

An inquirer would be humble in thier questions not saying such outrageous things as this book.
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2008, 05:51:59 PM »

I was thinking the same thing.  I'm also not comfortable ridiculing those who disagree, no matter how flawed their arguments may be.  I'm certainly glad no one treated me that way when I was first inquiring.

I agree that usually people should be treated with courtesy, especially inquirers.  But in the case of Dr Morey, he has obviously done his homework and rejected Christ's Church. Now, there may be some underlying reason that is the case, but from the shrill tone of that review (which I bet was written by one of his friends) I think it is clear that he is against the faith and preaching heresy bare-headed. In this instance, limited ridicule could be acceptable, if the ridicule has a purpose (the Fathers often ridiculed heretics that were teaching heresy bare-headed, but they obviously had a reason to do so). Whether the ridicule above had a purpose or not would have to be judged by the reader.
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2008, 07:29:34 PM »

Quote
In the first chapter, Dr. Morey documents how much like Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy began well when the Jews from Egypt received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:10).  When they returned to Egypt, they shared their faith in Jesus the Messiah and founded a church on Egyptian soil.  However, much like the early Roman Church again, the infant Jewish church began to attract the attention of local pagans.  Eventually, the pagans outnumbered the Jewish Christians and drove out the Messianic church founders because of their protest of the importation of pagan religious ideas and rituals into the church.

Quote
Dr. Morey's many years of intense academic research

If that's intense to Dr Morey, then he should stay away from coffee.
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2008, 07:46:49 PM »

I edited the poll to be less one-sided Wink
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2008, 07:48:22 PM »

^^LOL! I also was planning to edit the poll...but I couldn't think of a way to be as polite as you put it!  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2008, 08:25:50 PM »

My feeling on this thread, for what it's worth - and that's probably not much;

Dr Morey's anti-Orthodox book was introduced into an Orthodox forum in an extremely rude manner. If the poster had been a genuine inquirer they would have respectfully asked questions regarding the claims found in the book instead of sneakily inserting it into the "What's everyone reading" thread. That particular thread's purpose is neither for inquiry nor apologetics. The intention to be contentious seems quite explicit and the blog regarding the book itself provided the ingredients for a satirical rebuffing. 

Anyway, the mood of the Idolised One is still inauspices and I feel obligated to purchase him an offering of pet grass today.  Grin


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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2008, 08:26:06 PM »

FYI: Harold Cerula (HWC) has left the same message on the yahoo Orthodox Forum.
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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2008, 11:25:04 PM »

OK, in this book by Protestant Reformed scholar Dr. Robert Morey Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian? he claims to "refute" the “group of religions that go by the name Easter Orthodoxy.”

There are some pretty serious charges here, leveled at the Eastern Church, and I’m looking for a discussion to join (or start) as I go through the material.  I know he is from Westminster seminary (Presbyterian/Calvinist), so I don’t expect for him to be entirely sympathetic to Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2008, 11:28:11 PM »

OK, in this book by Protestant Reformed scholar Dr. Robert Morey Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian? he claims to "refute" the “group of religions that go by the name Easter Orthodoxy.” 


Perhaps you should then troll on one of those 'Easter Orthodox' boards...

That's not us, and your lack of even spelling correctly the focus of this site displays your incredible lack of knowledge of topics discussed here!
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2008, 11:34:25 PM »

Then don't participate in the discussion with me. If you are ever in a merciful "Christian" mood and willing to overlook a typo, them hit me up. By your own standards, your last statement is incoherent! Any serious Christians out there?
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2008, 11:40:37 PM »

Yes, because I am looking for a discussion. How does one "strike up" discussions these days? And how does one do it without being judged as a "troll?"
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2008, 11:53:08 PM »

Yes, because I am looking for a discussion. How does one "strike up" discussions these days? And how does one do it without being judged as a "troll?"

Well, look at the way you started this one.  Cross that method off the list.
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« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2008, 11:57:02 PM »

Does anyone want to discuss the new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey?
A to-the-point reply which I was sent..

Harold,

I'm not. I barely have time to read things that make sense, and that are by people who know their philosophy, their theology, and their history. I might read it to make fun of it, but I'd rather read Walker Percy: at least he has something worthwhile to say about the Faith. I read the far more irenic book by Letham, "Through Western Eyes" (actually, I critiqued it for him before it went to press) and found that a better basis for discussion.

To be honest, though, just from the review, Morey is potty, if not out-right addlepated. Anyone who can indict the Cappadocians of Neoplatonism, or who somehow thinks the
whole Eastern church was highjacked by some Alexandrian vagantes of Hermes Trismegistus, which cancer than overtook the whole of the Greek Church, has been drinking out of Mormon canteens. In short, he seems none too different than so many Reformed poseurs, who having obtained some form of MDiv or Dwhatever, go foaming at the mouth about things they are patently ignorant of (e.g., messrs. Jordan and Kineer); and being a former Presbyterian elder in the Philadelphia presbytery of the PCA, I have met many of the same. 

Morey seems the dispeptic type, whereas aside from thinking him wrong, Letham at least did do a good bit of homework. Further, he is not out to convert the Orthodox to
"Christianity" (he also has a better pedigree, actually possessing a real PhD from either St. Andrews or Edinburgh--I can't remember which). For dribble like this from Morey I would fail my freshmen Western Civ students. It takes enough energy to read their papers, so why should I waste my time and energy on someone who doesn't know
enough to right an educated book (that tripe about Buddha as an Orthodox saint-you should read what the forward to Lossky's book actually says-certainly tears it for me). I see no difference in his argumentation than that used by liberals to attack that which we call The Faith of the catholic Church.

If you have questions about Orthodoxy, go to some people who actually know about it, such as those at Monachos.net, or at energeticprocession.com. Granted, if you think
Morey is worth reading, and he somehow floats your boat, you may not have the wherewithal to keep up with the likes of the fellows at those sites.

All the best,
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« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2008, 11:58:42 PM »

I thought I saw it over at Byzcath ...
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« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2008, 11:59:27 PM »

As far as I am concerned, I would only read such books under the guidance of a priest.

If he is not "sympathetic to Orthodoxy," then great. All the power to him. We are what we are. And if he can't accept the Church of Christ on Her terms, then he will answer to it.
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2008, 12:04:56 AM »

Technically Harold this really isn't about Discussion now is it? Robert Morey seems to have set his pre-conceived ideas before he did his research? Had he done a Perspective similar to Three Views of Eastern Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism from the Zondervan series than both sides would presented two diametrically opposed positions: soteriology vs. Augustinianism. This way the Calvinist would object to how Eastern Christians view Salvation rather than dogmatically asserting it as wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2008, 12:15:14 AM »

As far as I am concerned, I would only read such books under the guidance of a priest.

If he is not "sympathetic to Orthodoxy," then great. All the power to him. We are what we are. And if he can't accept the Church of Christ on Her terms, then he will answer to it.
Took a quick look at the link with chapter titles and summaries. It's just a printed version of this website.

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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2008, 12:17:18 AM »

OK, in this book by Protestant Reformed scholar Dr. Robert Morey Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian? he claims to "refute" the “group of religions that go by the name Easter Orthodoxy.”
*
Morey should read the Protestant theologian Harnack who wrote, "the Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the Gospel and a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity." 

I have always treasured that quote and taken a great pride in it, perhaps even a sinful pride... mea culpa!  But are we not doing something right if Protestant theologians speak so highly of us :-)
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2008, 12:21:37 AM »

We'll have to consult our cat-god idols to know for sure, though.

Are we Catholics aloud to worship our cat-god idols along side you, or is that against the cannons?  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2008, 12:32:18 AM »

HWC, you introduce yourself to this forum by plugging the same book on three different threads in three different sections, and your third post follows a global moderator's demand that you not cross-post like this.  And you want us to discuss this book with you?  I DON'T THINK SO!
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2008, 12:33:58 AM »

It's ok papist come join were all godless heathens anyway so I guess anything goes! oh holy feline we shall worship your holy icons and scripture at www.canihazacheezeburger.com we shall also worship your holy servant Mrs.Y for she knows much about the Holy kiteney!
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2008, 12:41:53 AM »

Are we Catholics aloud to worship our cat-god idols along side you, or is that against the cannons?  Wink

Her Divine Worship, Lizzie I, says it will be acceptable, so long as the proper offerings of fish are made.
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2008, 12:42:59 AM »

HWC, you introduce yourself to this forum by plugging the same book on three different threads in three different sections, and your third post follows a global moderator's demand that you not cross-post like this.  And you want us to discuss this book with you?  I DON'T THINK SO!

Hear, hear!  Grin

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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2008, 12:43:00 AM »

Hi Harold:
There is little interest in debating you on this book because even a cursory review of Dr. Morey's website and book review shows a highly biased and polemical tome. There is nowhere to go with this. The majority of the regulars here know what primary sources are when researching historical events and have read more than a few of them. I strongly recommend to you to do the same.
If you are truly interested in this topic then pick a point in the book and request or look up a list of resources to read and then READ them. You will encounter many documents that will hold dramatically different viewpoints about historical events than you are used to.
For my own reading I do not appreciate, in principal, polemical writing clothed as "history" even if it espouses a viewpoint I hold. The net result of such literature is deleterious to ones own intellect and causes unnecessary conflict.
It may come as a suprise to you but a good number of academics do in fact write non-polemical historical books about early Christianity as well as the religious climate of the Roman Empire at this time. Perhaps you could look into that.

In a nutshell.
1)We know that this book contains material picked and chosen to support particular assumptions.
2)We are not going to waste our good time talking about it.
3)Go do your homework.

God Bless

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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2008, 01:18:19 AM »

Harold,

 First, you may want to consider introducing yourself when joining any group be it people on the street or on an internet forum.  It's just common courtesy that signals to the others that you are genuinely interested in them and wish to be taken seriously.  Secondly, upon entering your very first dialogue with people, it's typically not in good taste to begin with a book that portrays them in a negative, (and erroneous) manner.  This is considered a no-no in polite company.  Imagine if you will if I not only approached you and your family with a book that portrayed y'all negatively but also wished to discuss it chapter by chapter.  Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.

In Christ,

Gabriel
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2008, 01:21:11 AM »

Her Divine Worship, Lizzie I, says it will be acceptable, so long as the proper offerings of fish are made.

Tuna??
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2008, 01:38:20 AM »

Tuna??

Her Divine Worship says she prefers grilled Ahi Tuna.
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2008, 01:47:02 AM »

Her Divine Worship says she prefers grilled Ahi Tuna.

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2008, 01:59:51 AM »

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue

Is outrage! Herewith, has the penny-pinching and Anti-Cat tone of this post been noted!
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2008, 06:52:08 AM »

I thought you guys would all HELP me in refuting these arguments. But you just accused me of looking for a debate. I never said anything about debating. I said that Morey was a Presbyterian Calvinist from Westminster who would probably not be favorable to Orthodoxy. Instead, you all charge me with being the one with a bone to pick. This is silly and irrational. Forget about it. I'll find somewhere else to "discuss" this. It has been hard to find anyone looking to discuss the book. If there is a defense of the Orthodox faith out there, I'll find it. What makes me nervous is that so far, all I get are ad hominem slurs about Morey. am I the only one who sees this?
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2008, 11:18:56 AM »

I thought you guys would all HELP me in refuting these arguments. But you just accused me of looking for a debate. I never said anything about debating. I said that Morey was a Presbyterian Calvinist from Westminster who would probably not be favorable to Orthodoxy. Instead, you all charge me with being the one with a bone to pick. This is silly and irrational. Forget about it. I'll find somewhere else to "discuss" this. It has been hard to find anyone looking to discuss the book. If there is a defense of the Orthodox faith out there, I'll find it. What makes me nervous is that so far, all I get are ad hominem slurs about Morey. am I the only one who sees this?

Harold,

The website you cited has a paragraph that says the site will be monitoring discussions across Orthodox forums and providing links to these discussions. Then you come here and post several messages in different folders telling us to go read this book without any apparent commentary on your part until you are challenged.  This just seems fishy. If you are indeed a genuine seeker looking for discussion, you could have made a more sincere beginning here. If you are indeed genuine, then tell us about yourself and why you want to discuss this book. You may find someone who is willing to discuss it. I would buy it and discuss it with you if they had used copies that were cheap and did not directly profit Dr Morey.

Yes there are some ad hominems on Dr Morey. That is to be expected because the review of his work reveals some very tired and worn out anti-Orthodox arguments like the "paganism slowly crept in" argument. You must understand Harold that we Orthodox are accustomed to being attacked in the most silly and absurd ways by uneducated Evangelicals who claim we are pagans that we don't really take such attacks seriously anymore. If Dr Morey's books have more substance to them, the review of them certainly doesn't make us look favorably at it.

Have you read Dr Morey's book, and do you have any specific questions?

In Christ,

Anastasios
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« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2008, 12:45:27 PM »

Sheesh! Offerings were alot cheaper when we worshipped stumps! Tongue
Careful about changing from stumps to cats. That sounds like a dangerous Roman innovation.  angel
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« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2008, 02:56:06 PM »

Anastasios,
I could not have said it any better. Thank you.

A friend of mine who was introduced to Orthodoxy and will be entering the Church commented on another poster who made the statement that he would like to see a culture war between Protestants and Orthodoxy. His response to this was:

Quote
Evangelicals burn three-tiered crosses in piles and push legislation through the Republicans restricting the sale of icons to people over 21. The Orthodox, in response, scream "IS OUTRAGE!" in unison and utter something that would be incredibly witty and devastating if only it could be translated from its native Greco-Anglo pidgin.

I found it amusing.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2008, 04:27:45 PM »

I agree that Harold's initial post was susceptible to being reasonably interpreted as having an agenda, but then again I think Christian charity should have compelled us to give him the benefit of the doubt until his intention became clearer.

I also think some people may be unaware of how potentially self-damaging the various responses of ridicule and mockery are. If some people are inclined to dismiss the book based on a sketchy review of the author's work, then how much credibility should those same people be taken when it comes to eventually critiquing the substance of the work itself? If the agenda of supporters of this book is to spread this propoganda to Orthodox forums, then we should take that as an opportunity to promote Orthodoxy to a new audience. Instead, we are potentially reinforcing any negative dispositions they may already have.

I will personally see if I can try and get my hands on this book; I don't know about purchasing it, since I have a long list of works on my own Church to buy before considering anything else. I do have some experience with Dr. Robert Morey insofar as his Trinitarian apologetics and polemics against Islam are concerned. I found him to be helpful in regard to the former; Protestants usually do a good job at proving how honest Scriptural exegesis supports the doctrine of the All-Holy Trinity. Sure their methodology is in a way flawed (the foundation of the doctrine of the All-Trinity is not the Scriptures, but the Life and Worship of the Church), but many of their arguments and conclusions can be made to sit comfortably with an Orthodox approach to the Scriptures. As far as his polemics against Islam go, I found them to be terribly weak; they fascinated me in the initial stages of my study--Morey has the rhetorical ability to fascinate--but the more deeper I got into my research the more I realised how far left of field his arguments and conclusions were from that which serious scholarship would support.

As far as this latest work is concerned, I would be most interested to engage with his take on early Coptic Church history in particular. As far as the summary of Morey's arguments and conclusions in the review go (and I understand that it may not be a very good representation of what Morey actually argues/concludes), the idea that there was a large initial Jewish base over-taken by a large base of pagan converts who constituted the "Orthodox Church" seems rather reductionist and may be a somewhat confused conclusion; it's certainly not a take on history that I have read from any serious Egyptologist/Coptologist (Bagnall's Egypt in Late Antiquity, is, as far as I was lead to believe by Professor Heike Behlmer, Coptologist at Macquarie University, the standard authority on the subject--Bagnall is not Orthodox; see also Davis' Early Coptic Papacy--Davis is Protestant). It's reductionist insofar as it seems to divide the early groups into "authentic Jewish Christians" and "pagan-convert Orthodox Christians." Since (in the review at least) there is no account of the significant Gnostic sect that the Orthodox were primarily contending with in the early centuries, it seems like Morey may have confused Gnostics (who did indeed represent a hellenisation of Christianity) with the Orthodox. This may be the result of his unwittingly adopting the conclusion of scholars like Bauer who suggest that in the first few centuries of Coptic Christianity, the Church was dominated by Gnostics who peacefully co-existed with the Orthodox (and that as such, were essentially "the Orthodox" of the early centuries until the reign of Pope Demetrius at least). This view has subsequently been discredited (see Davis' Early Coptic Papacy) upon the basis of manuscript evidence. Anyway, I can't really keep arguing against assumptions I am making from a third-person review, so I will wait till I get my hands on this book before making further comments.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 04:28:09 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2008, 08:44:47 PM »

EkhristosAnesti, this is what I was looking for. I agree that Morey's Trinity book is good. I consider it superb because of the philosophical introduction that discusses epistemology and the "transcendental method." I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity? Because if so, that is a valid argument against Morey's book. I ordered it last week and it should arrive early this week, and until then all I have to go by is that review. Thanks, I'll be back once the book arrives.
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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2008, 08:54:43 PM »

EkhristosAnesti, this is what I was looking for. I agree that Morey's Trinity book is good. I consider it superb because of the philosophical introduction that discusses epistemology and the "transcendental method." I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity? Because if so, that is a valid argument against Morey's book. I ordered it last week and it should arrive early this week, and until then all I have to go by is that review. Thanks, I'll be back once the book arrives.

Harold,

I can understand your having questions about this book you may want to ask but it sounds like you haven't even read it (you mentioned you ordered it and are waiting for its arrival). So then, how could you be in the position to discuss it or ask questions about it on various forums? Shouldn't you at least read the book then post your questions for discussion? I am a little confused.

sincerely, Tamara
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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2008, 10:09:14 PM »

Yes, I should wait until I read it before posting more direct questions. I thought that there was a greater awareness of the book and its contents/arguments. the online review said that there were discussion forums on the internet. So I searched for some, found this site (and 2 or 3 others), posted a question asking if there was any interest in discussing it (I thought the book would arrive yesterday - Sat), and that is when I was attacked in the most unfriendly of ways from several members here. I didn't think this was a private, members only, hate the new guy board, and now I know it isn't all that, but it will always be from some. When I ordered the book from Faith Defenders, I was emailed a PDF sample that gives 3 page teasers from each chapter, and reading that brought many questions. It was premature on my part to ask for participants in a discussion, but I thought that the book was already something that was addressed somewhere online. I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2008, 10:16:52 PM »

I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.

I have a degree in this subject and can recommend:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=39111&netp_id=300501&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=details
 (really discounted right now!)

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Penguin-History/dp/0140231994/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200881773&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-Penguin-History/dp/0140231994/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200881773&sr=1-1

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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2008, 10:20:33 PM »

HWC,

I'm glad you have stuck it out with us.  I look forward to your questions.
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« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 02:18:07 AM »

Anastasios,

I have the first one (JND Kelly) and I think the Chadwick title, but it's not Penguin series.  I have "the Early Church" by Chadwick - Dorset.  Is this the same book?  I also recently picked up a used copy of "Early Christianity: Origins and Evolution" ed. Ian Hazlett.  This one is a commemorative work honoring W.H.C. Frend. 
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« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2008, 03:01:19 AM »

I'm not too familiar with his Islam book other than that he is accused of fabricating the moon-god theory (he didn't - documentation on this theory existed before he was even born).

I haven't read any of his written works on Islam; I heard a series of audio lectures by him entitled "The Secret Teachings of Muhammed." His style was very sensationalistic and polemical, and given my deeply engraved predisposition against Islam at the time, I received what he had to say quite enthusiastically and unquestionably. After I started testing out some of his arguments in the course of live intercourse with Muslims I realised just how weak they were; I realised that if I was going to get anywhere with Muslims in inter-faith debate, I would really need to start doing my homework so as to make sure that fantastic claims of the sort Morey was making actually stand up to scrutiny--which they didn't.

Quote
I thank you for your pointing out the absence of the Gnostic sect in the review. Are you saying that Morey may be confusing the Gnostics with pagan converts to Christianity?


Well, yes, at least those ones we could call "Orthodox" (though most secular scholars would think we're being anachronistic and prejudiced in so doing). The point is that these Gnostics existed with uneasy tension alongside the Orthodox because the Church at the time had not yet had enough time and impetus--in light of her being in the early stages of her development and especially given her occupation with persecution--to establish her self-identity so as to mark and enforce a clear-cut theological and ecclesiastical barrier between the Orthodox and Gnostics. The fact there is no mention of Gnostics as a distinct group of early believers in the review of Morey's discussion on this issue seems to suggest to me that Morey confounds the early Gnostics and the Orthodox (both of whom were largely made up of believers with pagan background).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:02:21 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2008, 03:12:48 AM »

Yes, I should wait until I read it before posting more direct questions. I thought that there was a greater awareness of the book and its contents/arguments. the online review said that there were discussion forums on the internet. So I searched for some, found this site (and 2 or 3 others), posted a question asking if there was any interest in discussing it (I thought the book would arrive yesterday - Sat), and that is when I was attacked in the most unfriendly of ways from several members here. I didn't think this was a private, members only, hate the new guy board, and now I know it isn't all that, but it will always be from some. I'm just really interested in studying the early church right now. Thanks Tamara.

I would like to apologize for my conduct here. Yet at the same time, I would like to point out that I do not believe our words were specifically intended as a personal attack on you, but rather shoddy "scholarship" regarding our Church itself. I would also point out that certainly some of the comments were mocking the position of many that we are a socalled "pagan" church. The absolute absurdity of some of the claims you see out there make it difficult to even begin to refute them, as they have no academic or scholarly ground to begin with. I regret that I myself may display a lack of Christian charity at times.

Yours in Christ
John
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« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2008, 04:43:13 AM »

Dear Harold,

I just dug up my notes on Bagnall's work which I referred to earlier as being a standard authority on the subject of the early history of Christian Egypt. As far as Bagnall's take on Egypt's Jewish Christians, here is what he has to say:

“Alexandria in the first century had an enormous Jewish community, and this is generally taken to be the basis for the earliest foundation of Christianity. The virtual extermination of the Jewish population of Egypt early in Hadrian’s reign both wiped out this matrix and eliminated any possibility that Christianity could spread throughout Egypt by way of the Jewish communities in the metropoleis.” (p. 278)

Nothing about suppression by some vague category of "pagan-converts to Christianity." My notes on this work were rather thorough; I'm sure I would've noted something had there been any suggestion of a delieberate effort on behalf of the Church to suppress a Jewish form of Christianity.

The only other Jewish-Christian community in Egypt that I can think of was one that subscribed to the lost Gospel to the Hebrews. This group was considered somewhat heretical, I believe, by the early Church. Nothing of this work remains except for what is quoted by the early Fathers. Given Morey's take on the infallibility and innerancy of the Scriptures (which I assume applies to form i.e. the canon, as much as it does to content) I would hardly think that he would attempt to promote this group as representative of normative Christianity.
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« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2008, 11:21:48 PM »

Just started reading a new book on Eastern Orthodoxy by Dr. Robert Morey.
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This snippet from Stephen Macasil's review shows that the Protestants are smarting from the number of young Evangelicals converting...

"Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" by Dr. Robert Morey, is an absolute must for the Christian apologist and evangelist.  The Eastern Orthodox religion has recently stormed across Protestant Evangelicalism, sweeping away thousands of converts.  Today, Eastern Orthodox professors are teaching young and naïve Protestant Evangelicals in Evangelical universities and seminaries, and converting them to Eastern Orthodoxy!"

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/
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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2008, 11:41:33 PM »

*
This snippet from Stephen Macasil's review shows that the Protestants are smarting from the number of young Evangelicals converting...

"Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?" by Dr. Robert Morey, is an absolute must for the Christian apologist and evangelist.  The Eastern Orthodox religion has recently stormed across Protestant Evangelicalism, sweeping away thousands of converts.  Today, Eastern Orthodox professors are teaching young and naïve Protestant Evangelicals in Evangelical universities and seminaries, and converting them to Eastern Orthodoxy!"

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/


This conversion experience is exactly how my priest became Orthodox. He was attending Fuller Seminary and he said the Greek Orthodox priest, who taught the Biblical Greek class, was his initiation into Orthodox spirituality. After he graduated from Fuller he was a youth minister for several years in a Vineyard evangelical church but the superficial worship service didn't compare to what he found in the Divine Liturgy. My priest has chrismated 20+ people every year for the past seven years I have attended his parish. Many of those he has chrismated were former evangelicals. I wish I knew the name of that Greek priest. I would love to let him know how the seeds he planted have grown and produced fruit.
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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2008, 11:45:58 PM »

"By using the education that this book provides in evangelism and apologetics, you will be able to irrefutably expose the rotten pillars of Eastern Orthodoxy.  Perhaps by God's sovereign grace He may save some."

Notice the teaching that we are going to Hell.

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2008, 05:40:55 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades", who knows. But there is a protestant ministry with that name. The book came today, by the way.
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2008, 06:00:47 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades",
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No, it's for real.

Chapter 9:   THE STRANGE CASE OF HOW 2,000 PROTESTANT EVANGELICALS ENDED UP JOINING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

In early 1987, some 2,000 members of the now-dissolved Evangelical Orthodox Church were received into full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church--the largest ever mass conversion to Orthodoxy in North American history. Even more remarkable was the fact that the leaders and clergy of the erstwhile E.O.C. group were former evangelical Protestants, with backgrounds in Campus Crusade for Christ, Youth for Christ, and Young Life, and degrees from institutions like Wheaton College, Dallas Seminary, Fuller Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Seminary, Seattle Pacific University, Oral Roberts University, Lincoln Christian College, and Biola University.

As one of the former E.O.C. priests, Peter Gillquist, a former regional director of Campus Crusade and now an archpriest of the Antiochan Orthodox Christian Diocese of North America, asks rhetorically in his book "Becoming Orthodox," "whatever would possess two thousand Bible-believing, blood-bought, Gospel-preaching, Christ-centred, life-long evangelical Protestants to embrace this Orthodox faith so enthusiastically... [to] end up embracing historic ecclesiology, liturgical worship, and sacrament?" What indeed?

Fr. Gillquist relates how he became increasingly disillusioned with what he was accomplishing as a Protestant "parachurch" evangelist. He recalls seeing a button on someone's shirt that read: "God isn't dead-- Church is." "Amen," Gillquist said to himself, "Not only are converts falling by the wayside, but the churches are so pathetic that they can't handle the ones who do come. The Church is in captivity to an invisible, present- day Babylon!"

In 1973, Peter Gillquist joined a core group of six other burned-out campus evangelists in a quest to discover what had happened to the New Testament Church. "Not too far into our investigation," writes Jon Braun, one of the seven, "we were shocked to discover that there were whole chapters, as it were, of Church history with which we were totally unfamiliar. And in our quest to get to the bottom of what was missing, we made a monumental discovery... the historic Orthodox Church. [Up until then] we didn't even know it still existed."49

"As Protestants," observed Jack Sparks, another member of the group, "we know our way back to A.D. 1517 and the Reformation. As evangelicals--Bible people--we know our way up to A.D. 95 or so, when the Apostle John finished writing the Revelation. It's time we fill the gap in between!"

The problem, Sparks allowed, is that "everybody claims to be the New Testament Church. The Catholics say they are; the Baptists say they are; the Church of Christ says it is--and nobody else is. We need to find out `who's right?'"

The group of seven decided to research and study every aspect of Christian history they could uncover until they discovered "who's right." They agreed going into this project that wherever their "phantom search for the perfect Church" led, they would resolve to do and be whatever the New Testament Church did and was. "If we found we were wrong, we would change," says Gillquist.

What the seven seekers discovered indeed revolutionized their vision of what the true Church should be. They discovered that Christian worship was liturgical from the earliest recorded times. The original Greek text of Acts 13:2 refers to "leitourgounton"--"liturgy."

They discovered that the Fathers of the ancient Apostolic Church perceived the consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist as the actual body and blood of Christ, as He Himself affirmed at the last Supper, and that from the earliest times the Sacrament of Holy Communion was the centrepiece of Christian worship.

They discovered that the episcopal orders of clergy date from the First Century, and that Ignatius of Antioch was bishop of the Church there from A.D. 67 to 107. Acts 1:20 (K.J.V.) uses the term "bishopric" ("episcopen" in the original Greek), although some modern Protestant translations paraphrase it. St. Paul speaks of bishops and deacons in Philippians 1:1-2 and 1 Timothy 3: 1-12, and bishops in Titus 1:7. Acts 15 refers to James the brother of Jesus, who was Bishop of Jerusalem, rendering final judgment in a dispute.

They discovered that the New Testament Church was Sacramental, believing that Baptism really is for the remission of sins and the giving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

They discovered that "tradition" was the tradition of the very early Church. St, Paul wrote: "Therefore brethren stand fast and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15). He affirms tradition again in 2 Thess 3:6. The tradition St. Paul speaks of is the teachings of the Apostolic Church, which were considered authoritative long before the New Testament canon was ratified.

These discoveries led to the establishment of a new Church denomination: the Evangelical Orthodox Church, which incorporated the ancient doctrines and forms of worship that the seven scholars had identified in their historical research. At that point, they still had virtually no knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but once contact was finally established, the journey began in earnest that eventually led most of the former evangelicals into the ancient Apostolic Orthodox Faith. It's a fascinating tale, well told in Peter Gillquist's book.

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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2008, 08:25:40 AM »

I have Morey's audio lectures that mention the evangelical conversions. He says that it mainly happened through Campus Crusades for Christ. I don't know if it was a joke or play on words "Campus Crusades", who knows. But there is a protestant ministry with that name. The book came today, by the way.

Nope it's for real, like Irish Hermit said.  Fr. Peter Gillquist wrote a book about their conversion called "Becoming Orthodox". And I think there was recent podcast about one of the last churches to come into communion.  Is that right? 
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2008, 09:16:00 AM »

Nope it's for real, like Irish Hermit said. 
Harold,

I think that PrincessMommy has hit on the answer!

The best way to understand Morey's take on Orthodxoy is to read some of the books of the thousands of Evangelical Protestants who have become Orthodox.  On their journey out of Evagelicalism they have had to face and deal with every one of the problems which Morey addresses in his book.

The ex-director of Campus Crusade, now Fr Peter Gillquist, seems to be the man with the gift for writing...


"Coming Home: Why Protestant Clergy Are Becoming Orthodox" by Peter E. Gillquist
http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Home-Protestant-Becoming-Orthodox/dp /0962271322/ref=sr_1_1/103-0095830-6016634?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201007088&sr=1-1
 
"Becoming Orthodox: A Journey to the Ancient Christian Faith"
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Orthodox-Journey-Ancient-Christian/dp/0962271330/ref=sr_1_3/103-0095830-6016634?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201007088&sr=1-3
 
 

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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2008, 02:47:31 PM »

Here: http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071110/FEAT04/711100376
There is a story of a Pentecostal Minister who led a large portion of his Church to convert to Catholicism after studying the documents of the Early Church. I  wonder if Jones considered Eastern Orthodoxy and if the group that Fr. Ambrose mentioned ever considered Catholicism.
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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2008, 03:00:21 PM »

Here: http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071110/FEAT04/711100376
There is a story of a Pentecostal Minister who led a large portion of his Church to convert to Catholicism after studying the documents of the Early Church. I  wonder if Jones considered Eastern Orthodoxy and if the group that Fr. Ambrose mentioned ever considered Catholicism.

Don't know about Jones's group, but Fr Peter Gillquist's group certainly did consider Rome. It's in the second book above.
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« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2008, 11:50:49 PM »

Chapter 9:   THE STRANGE CASE OF HOW 2,000 PROTESTANT EVANGELICALS ENDED UP JOINING THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

In early 1987, some 2,000 members of the now-dissolved Evangelical Orthodox Church were received into full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church--the largest ever mass conversion to Orthodoxy in North American history.
*
That statement needs correcting.

About 80 years ago approximately 100,000 Catholics converted to Orthodoxy in the States. 

If you google the name of Alexis Toth you will turn up information.
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2008, 12:18:01 AM »

*
That statement needs correcting.

About 80 years ago approximately 100,000 Catholics converted to Orthodoxy in the States. 

If you google the name of Alexis Toth you will turn up information.

True, but 'dem Catoliks 'r like dose Ortydox folks- ain't real Christians... Wink
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2008, 12:28:50 AM »

True, but 'dem Catoliks 'r like dose Ortydox folks- ain't real Christians... Wink
*
I read elsewhere that the reviewer of Morey's book Stephen Macasil

* uses Jack Chick as a publishing outlet
* has an honorary degree from a Pakistani College which was declared to be fraudulent, and then revoked.

If such are Morey's friends and supporters, well.... 'nuf said.
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2008, 05:21:40 PM »

I happened upon this little jewel by Dr. Morey discussing his (what was then) forthcoming book.  If for noone else this post kind of gave me a little view of the author and his way of dealing with people and subjects.

 
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Archives Posts
O Happy Day!  http://biblicalthought.com/blog/author/dr-robert-morey/
November 3rd, 2007 by Dr. Robert Morey
 

By the grace of God, I have finished a new book that defines, documents, and then refutes Eastern Orthodoxy. Books that promote EO are coming out by “Christian” publishers every day. Even some Reformed ministries sell some of these books. I have to believe they do so out of pure ignorance.

My examination of Orthodoxy has taken almost five years. I began by attending their seminars and conferences. I sat quietly listening to Protestants who had converted to EO. I bought their books, tracts, videos and tapes. I acted dumb and asked a zillion questions: What is the best book on deification? Where is the best Orthodox seminary? Can I visit it and do research in their library? Who are the best Orthodox thinkers? What textbooks did you use in seminary?

I traveled to their seminaries and famous churches until I fully understood what they taught and on what arguments they based their teachings. I watched them cross themselves, kiss icons, and wave incense before them as they stood. The last place I went to research EO was the Library of Congress. I sat there from the moment they opened to when they closed reading what they had on EO. The LC is the secret of all my footnotes and documentation. I keep going there until the research is done.

The book (Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?) will be at the printers in a month and ready for distribution in six weeks. The Lord has already indicated its effectiveness when a local Orthodox priest stormed into our church and tried to interrupt our worship to demand that I not be allowed to publish the book. My staff threw him out and told him that Dr. Morey would not storm into his church, disrupt his service and attack him in front of his people. I later asked his Bishop for an apology but they have refused to do so. Evidently, they feel they can disrupt a Reformed church at will. If we went and did the same to them, you would hear their squeals and condemnations for daring to interrupt their divine worship. The mad Greek Orthodox priest only encouraged me to continue defending the gospel against all the heresies and false churches that surround us today.

Question: Do you think that priest owed us an apology for disrupting our service? Should we go over to his church and disrupt his service?
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2008, 05:25:15 PM »

Dr. Morey seems a bit childish.
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« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 03:45:42 PM »

I agree that usually people should be treated with courtesy, especially inquirers.  But in the case of Dr Morey, he has obviously done his homework and rejected Christ's Church. Now, there may be some underlying reason that is the case, but from the shrill tone of that review (which I bet was written by one of his friends) I think it is clear that he is against the faith and preaching heresy bare-headed. In this instance, limited ridicule could be acceptable, if the ridicule has a purpose (the Fathers often ridiculed heretics that were teaching heresy bare-headed, but they obviously had a reason to do so). Whether the ridicule above had a purpose or not would have to be judged by the reader.

Dr. Morey is a Reformed Protestant and all they seem to care about is there 5 point system of Calvinism, determinism, and the deterministic teachings that came from Saint Augustine's later writings (from 417 A.D. to about 423 A.D.)
And the works of John Calvin.

That is what they are trying to defend and fight for.

From what I read from the review at the website it was corny. Most forms of Protestantism must twist history in order to prove their own peculiar teachings right.

I think an Orthodox Apologetic group should give a counter to this book just so that those who don't know about history or doctrine won't get lead astray.



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« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 05:03:08 PM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.
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« Reply #79 on: February 01, 2008, 01:47:33 AM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.
Are you asking that someone from the OC.net admin/mod team disable the link?  If so, why?  The blog entry may indeed rankle our Orthodox sensitivities, but the link is relevant to this discussion and is not in violation of forum rules, so I don't see any reason why we should shut the blog link down.
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« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2008, 05:27:08 AM »

I just read the comments on the blog that ComingHome posted.  They're so sad!  It breaks my heart that anyone would read and believe the absolute rubbish, lies, and blasphemy that this man is publishing as fact!  I feel like I'm crying in my soul that anyone would say or believe such terrible things about Christ's Holy Church.  May our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ save us from this madness and open the hearts of these people to see your Truth.
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« Reply #81 on: February 01, 2008, 08:48:57 AM »

^ AMen Presbytera
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« Reply #82 on: February 01, 2008, 02:25:36 PM »

After reading ComingHome's post can I be the first one to call for the administrator to shut this blog down.

ASERB:  If I have somehow offended your sensibilities or gone beyond what is appropriate, I sincerely apologize for this.

I felt that the post I made was germane to our discussion and gave a very clear picture of the kind of person we are dealing with in Dr. Morey.  I accept the very real possibility that I was mistaken.

Again, if I have offended in any way, I am sorry!  Any harm was totally unintentional.
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« Reply #83 on: February 01, 2008, 04:45:53 PM »

ComingHome: You did not offend me. My sentiments were better expressed by GreekChef. No you did me a service and enlightened me to what a whack job this guy Morey is and frankly, I feel as if it is almost beneath us to discuss his ideas and give him a platform here on our site.
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« Reply #84 on: February 01, 2008, 09:01:24 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts
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« Reply #85 on: February 01, 2008, 09:25:03 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts

I agree,

Many Protestants will eat his stuff up. They already have a bent to find some fault with us so it will be easy for them to believe the stuff he's putting out. I think an apologetic to his book will be a good thing.

I'm willing to help out.



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« Reply #86 on: February 01, 2008, 09:28:32 PM »

When I was in College I used to attend Fellowship of Christian Athletes bible studies. I met all kinds of folks there and not all were evangelicals, though most were. The post that Coming Home put up for our consideration, appalling as it is, is actually typical if not mild compared to what evangelicals of all different stripes sell. If we want to evangelize these people we need to read a lot more of this kind of stuff and write thourough apologetics to it. Definitely not for the faint of heart.

Unfortunately in light of my past experiences his target audience will probably take most of it to heart.

I am not in favor of closing this thread since I think we could do the Church much service learning and dissecting the arguments Dr. Morey puts forth. In other words lets take this thing academic.

Just my thoughts

As much as it pains me to say this, I must agree wholeheartedly that we have to be prepared to respond to this type of cancerous falsehood, so as to prevent it from infecting too many people, if you know what I mean.  I find this guy's work apallingly offensive, utterly ridiculous, and just plain mean.  However, we must be wise as serpants and gentle as doves. This means being informed and ready to respond with love. In the face of such belligerant vitriol, we must respond with truth and love. I, for one, plan to take a long look at what he is accusing us of, so as to adequately form a response. May the Holy Spirit enlighten us and give yus the strength, wisdom, and love to teach His truth to those who might get swept away by such hateful lies!
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« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2008, 09:54:02 PM »

I agree this must be kept academic. It's a bit of a double-standard to complain about Morey's work using such subjective and emotional terms like "mean", "ridiculous" etc. We pretty much do what Dr. Morey does to every heteredox and heretical sect, and that no doubt comes across as being just as "mean" and "ridiculous" to them when we undermine their faith using similar rhetoric and making similar claims regarding the extensiveness of our research etc.

Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but the difference is that we preach the truth!" clearly does not get what I am saying. Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but our intention is not to trash other faiths, but rather we are motivated by love which demands the truth be told", still does not get what I am saying. Moral outcry might be effective in inspiring fear and caution amongst those who already belong to the faith, hence steering them clear of such material, but it is rather counter-productive to convincing those who are predisposed against Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #88 on: February 01, 2008, 10:35:54 PM »


Being not as Orthodox as I am going to be, I do not feel qualified to aid you in this matter. 
But I would surely love to read the results of your efforts as they would help educate me in my own personal struggles.
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« Reply #89 on: February 01, 2008, 10:54:41 PM »

I agree this must be kept academic. It's a bit of a double-standard to complain about Morey's work using such subjective and emotional terms like "mean", "ridiculous" etc. We pretty much do what Dr. Morey does to every heteredox and heretical sect, and that no doubt comes across as being just as "mean" and "ridiculous" to them when we undermine their faith using similar rhetoric and making similar claims regarding the extensiveness of our research etc.

Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but the difference is that we preach the truth!" clearly does not get what I am saying. Anyone who responds with a sentiment along the lines of, "yeah, but our intention is not to trash other faiths, but rather we are motivated by love which demands the truth be told", still does not get what I am saying. Moral outcry might be effective in inspiring fear and caution amongst those who already belong to the faith, hence steering them clear of such material, but it is rather counter-productive to convincing those who are predisposed against Orthodoxy.

I didn't say it shouldn't be academic. of course it should. although as FrChris said, "we can't argue people into our churches. we can only love them into our churches."

I react the way I do out of shock and hurt that anyone would do what this guy does. I have never personally encountered this. I've lived in the Bible belt my whole life, and have met plenty of people who either didn't kbow about Orthodoxy or didn't agree with it. But I have never encountered anything like this before.

you assume that all of us behave in the manner which you described. I can only account for myself when I say, while I don't agree with Protestant doctrine, I would never presume to behave that way, nor would I ever presume to say that I am an authority on anything Protestant. My grandmother and all of her siade of my family was/is Protestant. I would never treat them that way or disrespect them by questioning whether or not they are Christians, or anyone else, for that matter.  I love them too much. That is not the example of Orthodoxy that I want to be. the example we should be is truth and love.

And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean. But that does not mean I will respond to him the way he has presented himself. Again, that is not what Orthodoxy is about. What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?
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« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2008, 11:14:39 PM »

And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean. But that does not mean I will respond to him the way he has presented himself. Again, that is not what Orthodoxy is about. What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?

I agree, his claims are ridiculous and mean-spirited. Just how one counters them, I'm not sure. Praying for the chap is a start, because I don't think that intelligent discussion will help. Afterall, he claims to have done all the homework and uncovered evidence that led him to write an expose on Orthodoxy; one that is riddled with ridiculous and meanspirited claims. (There, I said it again!)

Personally, unless the HWC has some relevant questions that we can answer to help him unravel his own confusion regarding the reliability of Morey as a theologian, I believe this is one that I would simply shake my head at and brush the dust off my sandals. I'm not suggesting that this is the course of action that everyone should take.

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« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2008, 11:26:38 PM »

As much as it pains me to say this, I must agree wholeheartedly that we have to be prepared to respond to this type of cancerous falsehood, so as to prevent it from infecting too many people, if you know what I mean.  I find this guy's work apallingly offensive, utterly ridiculous, and just plain mean.  However, we must be wise as serpants and gentle as doves. This means being informed and ready to respond with love. In the face of such belligerant vitriol, we must respond with truth and love. I, for one, plan to take a long look at what he is accusing us of, so as to adequately form a response. May the Holy Spirit enlighten us and give yus the strength, wisdom, and love to teach His truth to those who might get swept away by such hateful lies!

When we critique his work should we put our findings online?

Or should it be in book form?

or both?

I'm familiar with some of the arguments already. I just wanted to know what everyone plans on doing. Should we put our rebuttals on Orthodoxchristianity.net?



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« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2008, 11:44:27 PM »

I agree, his claims are ridiculous and mean-spirited. Just how one counters them, I'm not sure. Praying for the chap is a start, because I don't think that intelligent discussion will help. Afterall, he claims to have done all the homework and uncovered evidence that led him to write an expose on Orthodoxy; one that is riddled with ridiculous and meanspirited claims. (There, I said it again!)

Personally, unless the HWC has some relevant questions that we can answer to help him unravel his own confusion regarding the reliability of Morey as a theologian, I believe this is one that I would simply shake my head at and brush the dust off my sandals. I'm not suggesting that this is the course of action that everyone should take.



An intelligent discussion is part of the answer. It may not change his mind, but it's not his mind that I'm worried about. It's the mind of his readers I'm after.

Dr. Roberts can make the claim that he studied this and studied that. But if we show his previous work of other groups and the misrepresentation he gave to them (in some areas) then that should neutralize such claims in the mind of his readers.


What the reader needs to know is that his presuppositions from the very beginning was to attack Eastern Orthodoxy instead of giving a valid critique of Eastern Orthodoxy due to alot of evangelicals becoming Orthodox.


His arguments are from a Reformed protestant perspective. So he is looking at Orthodoxy through those lenses. Authentic christianity knew nothing of the Reformed faith. This too must be made known so that when his readers read our rebuttals it will take them out of their zone......it will cause them to contemplate on their own possible biases.



So if we attack it from different directions we will be more successful in debunking it. We already know that it's false....especially those of us who are into Church History, World Histery and the like.






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« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2008, 12:10:20 AM »

Well HWC, who first said he was reading the book and then said he had to wait to get the book to read it (am I the only one who is confused?) was supposed to be coming back with some points to discuss.



 
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« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2008, 12:17:04 AM »

I agree that we have little chances of changing Morey's mind. However reviewing a primer on reformed theology along with tackling this book would be a good idea. I guess I will knuckle down and buy this tome and give it a look see. It would do me well to learn more about reformed theology as well.

How would we go about this? Write up the key points in each chapter and then post them on this forum for all to review?

Any suggestions?
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« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2008, 12:25:21 AM »

Why don't we take a look at Dr. Morey?? Is he an actual theologian in the Reformed movement?? Or is that just a label attached to him??

If so....we may be better served by utilizing some resources and texts on the Reformed Movement from that tradition itself. I'm willing to read this book if that's the route we want to go....
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« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2008, 12:25:56 AM »

GreekChef,

First of all, I hope I haven't upset you, and I hope you understand that my intention is not to get into any sort of conflict with you but only to compel you to at least consider viewing this from an alternate perspective.

Quote
I didn't say it shouldn't be academic.

Okay, maybe I should’ve been clearer. Let’s keep it STRICTLY academic.

Quote
although as FrChris said, "we can't argue people into our churches. we can only love them into our churches."

Well I am not too sure what Fr. Chris meant exactly, but I think it would be safe to say that many people were won over to the Church through rational discourse and argument. St Justin Martyr is a prime example; he went on to use the dialectic method through which he was converted as a model to in turn assist the conversion of others. Nevertheless, as effective as rational discourse and argumentation can be instrumentally, it is not sufficient in and of itself, and I think the same goes for presenting a loving example. The deal-breaker/maker in the end has nothing to do with us—nothing to do with either our arguments or our loving examples—but everything to do with the inner sincerity, openness, and humility of the person we seek to win over to Christ, and ofcourse the will of God.

Quote
I react the way I do out of shock and hurt that anyone would do what this guy does.

I am not trying to tell you to not be shocked or hurt, but only to exercise a little empathy. If you read Morey carefully, it is clear he is not trying to be mean; it’s only natural for us to interpret something that undermines the very heart of our existence as such. Similarly, I’d be safe in presuming that many Protestants would consider Orthodox polemics against Protestantism—charges of abusing the scriptures, of being outside the true Church etc.—as being mean and hurtful.

Quote
you assume that all of us behave in the manner which you described.

I am not assuming anything on behalf of anyone in particular let alone everyone. I am simply saying that polemics are by nature offensive to those whom they are targeted towards, and every ideology or faith necessarily produces such polemics for the sake of upholding and defending its own integrity. The Orthodox Church is no exception.

Quote
I can only account for myself when I say, while I don't agree with Protestant doctrine, I would never presume to behave that way

Can you give a specific example of what you mean? What is a specific remark made by Morey that exemplifies this “behaviour” you speak of?

Quote
nor would I ever presume to say that I am an authority on anything Protestant

If you did extensive and in-depth study on Protestant Christianity in consultation with reputable Protestant scholarship and in light of substantial first-hand experience with Protestant Christianity you would certainly make a point of indicating all such things so as to enhance your credibility. I don’t see what Morey did wrong in that regard. Unless ofcourse he’s lying about all that. But we have no way for sure of knowing if he is or not, so it would be foolish to suggest that he is being misleading. The only prudent reaction to his claims in this regard, in my opinion, would simply be to consider the conclusions he makes and the sources he bases them on, and to demonstrate how he has misinterpreted/misrepresented/misused those sources, thereby drawing false conclusions.

Quote
My grandmother and all of her siade of my family was/is Protestant. I would never treat them that way or disrespect them by questioning whether or not they are Christians, or anyone else, for that matter.  I love them too much. That is not the example of Orthodoxy that I want to be. the example we should be is truth and love.

Yes, but everyone has their own interpretation and understanding of when truth and love clash. Some Orthodox Christians would consider Protestants not Christian, and believe that to be a truth that no amount of love can compromise, and that perfect love demands be proclaimed; but anyway, let's not go there because it really is besides the point. Let me try and offer a better example: would you consider Mormons Christians? I would hope not (they deny the very fundamentals of the Christian Faith—the Trinity, Monotheism, the Incarnation), and yet how would you respond to a Mormon who sincerely believes he is a Christian and who would be offended to the core to hear you tell him you think he is not Christian? Morey sincerely believes the Orthodox have departed so far from the faith so as to be considered unchristian; we can fault him for the basis upon which he draws such a conclusion, but objectivity precludes us from accusing him of being offensive/rude/mean in a way we ourselves could not become victim to the very same accusations.

Quote
And just for the record, I DO think his assertions are ridiculous and mean.

I certainly think they’re ridiculous; I don’t think they’re mean; not in any reasonably objective sense at least. That said, my point is simply that rather than spending pages making ad hominem attacks against a work we have not even read yet, let us keep such thoughts--thoughts which, in light of what we know of Orthodoxy, seem valid--to ourselves since they have more potential of working against us then for us in the context of a public forum. Just try to empathise; imagine that an Orthodox apologist produced a fantastic refutation of Mormonism for example, and then we, being predisposed in favour of the arguments made therein, stumble across a Mormon forum only to find all the members charging it with being ridiculous, stupid, idiotic, and God knows what else, without even addressing the substance at all and whilst admitting they haven't read the work yet! What would you think of these people? Would your own attitude to this book be likely to be weakened or strengthened?

Quote
What better way to prove him wrong than by showing ourselves as true, informed examples of Christian love?

Morey claims to have spent much time amongst Orthodox, I’m sure he saw enough loving examples. In the end, neither arguments nor loving examples will suffice to convince someone like Morey--for reasons only God knows. Ultimately, however, I’d think rational discourse to be the more effective instrument were that essential element that concerns his inner man which none of us have access to, were in such a condition so as to be receptible to the Grace that leads to the Truth.
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« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2008, 09:15:30 PM »

An intelligent discussion is part of the answer. It may not change his mind, but it's not his mind that I'm worried about. It's the mind of his readers I'm after.

Dr. Roberts can make the claim that he studied this and studied that. But if we show his previous work of other groups and the misrepresentation he gave to them (in some areas) then that should neutralize such claims in the mind of his readers.


What the reader needs to know is that his presuppositions from the very beginning was to attack Eastern Orthodoxy instead of giving a valid critique of Eastern Orthodoxy due to alot of evangelicals becoming Orthodox.


His arguments are from a Reformed protestant perspective. So he is looking at Orthodoxy through those lenses. Authentic christianity knew nothing of the Reformed faith. This too must be made known so that when his readers read our rebuttals it will take them out of their zone......it will cause them to contemplate on their own possible biases.



So if we attack it from different directions we will be more successful in debunking it. We already know that it's false....especially those of us who are into Church History, World Histery and the like.






JNORM888

I agree with you totally.  This was a very insightful post, thank you JNorm!  How would you suggest we go about it (internet vs. book)?  I'm not sure I actually have an answer except to say both, starting with something on goarch.org and the other Orthodox jurisdiction's websites (all of them would be more effective than one of them).  Also, somebody mentioned in the comments the possibility of a debate between him and a priest.  Maybe someone who is well versed in Orthodoxy with a degree and a good reputation should do this.  It would be especially effective, to my mind, if it was actually a convert, as then one of his arguments is automatically short-circuited.  My instinct is to say all three of these things, debate (or dialogue, I should say), internet, and books.  The question is, would his audience of readers be interested?  I would think they would be inclined to dismiss any response from us, unless it was a response that was a direct response to Morey's claims in an open forum (such as a debate/diologue).  They might come to hear Morey, but what they would hear (God willing that He soften their hearts to hear the truth) is the Truth and beauty of Orthodoxy.  Can anyone think of someone who might be willing to take on this ever-important task?

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« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2008, 10:08:40 PM »

By the way, has anyone looked at the rest of this website?  (biblicalthought.com)  I was reading some of the blogs, discussions, comments, etc.  Most recently (and interestingly), there is a "game" that they are playing called "Name that Heretic."  Anyone want to comment on what they think of this site?  Personally, I think that the nature and tone of the website is very condemning of those they don't agree with, and thus is going to make it even more difficult for any of the Truth of Christ in Orthodoxy to reach them, should we decide to respond. 

There are a couple of contributors on the site that are Orthodox and defending Orthodoxy (valiantly and worthily, I might add!).  It's wonderful to see (*read*) their voices in the darkness.

As I said before, I think it is imperative that we be prepared to respond to this kind of thing, and I love that I'm reading on this thread that there are people willing and wanting to do so.  I will be happy to contribute in any way possible to whatever movement (so to speak) is going on here, as far as responding.  I think it's also wonderful that it come from OC.net, because the voices on this forum are varying jurisdictions of Orthodoxy, but all are united in defending the faith!  Beautiful!  May God bless our efforts, and may He send His Holy Spirit to inspire our words to reveal His Truth!
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« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2008, 10:25:52 PM »

Sorry, I'm probably getting long winded now, but I just had to post what I just found...

At the suggestion of an earlier poster in this thread, I started looking a little at the "seminary" that this website (biblicalthought.com) is affiliated with.  It is CBUS, California Biblical University and Seminary, an online "university and seminary," of which Dr. Morey is the President.  I urge the posters on this thread to take a look at their website (cbusedu.org).  Please note that there is no notation of the school being accredited by any accrediting body (thus the website is a .org, rather than a .edu), and Dr. Morey is noted as the "primary faculty member joined by a team of adjunct instructors."  Also, please note that the website specifies that he "studied and worked with" Francis Schaeffer (the now Eastern Orthodox apologist and prolific writer on Orthodoxy). 
www.cbusedu.org for citations.

Personally, this explains a LOT to me about this man and this book.  To my mind, he has begun his own school to use as his platform to espouse his own opinions.  It also says A LOT to me that he worked with Francis Schaeffer.  Maybe this is the reason for his hatred of all things Eastern Orthodox?  Maybe Francis Schaeffer should be the one to respond to him (maybe he already has).

Also, has anyone noted who published this book?  I'd be interested to see if it was self-published (again, using his own resources to create a platform for himself).

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2008, 10:40:53 PM »

Also, please note that the website specifies that he "studied and worked with" Francis Schaeffer (the now Eastern Orthodox apologist and prolific writer on Orthodoxy). 

I think he is referring to Frank Shaeffer's father, the famous Protestant minister Francis Shaeffer.
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« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2008, 11:10:09 PM »

Greekchef,

I have just the one reservation about reading and defending the kind of blather that one finds on sites such as Dr Morey's.

I don't know about you, but I find enough real issues in this life that make it difficult to remain "on the path of spiritual growth". A large part of the spiritual experience, for me, is peace of mind; and that means choosing the right battles to enter.

In all the years that I have been Orthodox, I have found that the only benefit in explaining/defending the faith is to those who are willing to hear it.  People like Dr Morey don't really want to be informed of the truth about Orthodoxy; his book with all its silly claims is far more exciting than the truth.

It's not to say that I fear that the information I would be countering will lead me away from Orthodoxy, it's just that scrambling about finding defences against strawmen arguments becomes such a great time waster and diminishes our spiritual strength. 

I believe that we should most definitely give a good defence of the faith, but should that defence be against a barage of ridiculous claims that will certainly keep coming at us and that have the potential to destroy our peace of mind?

I'm not saying that anyone else should follow my lead in ignoring the slanderous stupidity one finds on the internet, but I feel that it might be an idea to ask ourselves if it is really worth the effort, when we could be involved in enterprises that are far more beneficial.

Perhaps we should also remember that this thread was started by HWC, who apparently has an admiration for Dr. Morey as a theologian. Therefore, the onus seems to be on HWC to present the questions that he said he had regarding Dr Morey's book rather than us entering into a carte blanche refutation of Morey's claims.

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« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2008, 11:32:51 PM »

GreekChef,

First of all, I hope I haven't upset you, and I hope you understand that my intention is not to get into any sort of conflict with you but only to compel you to at least consider viewing this from an alternate perspective.

EkhristosAnesti (beautiful username, by the way!),
Please don't worry, you haven't upset me at all.  In fact, you have given me much cause to think.  I guess I'm not very articulate at times, and many will tell you that my rhetoric is often influenced by my emotion.  You are correct that, while my facts may be correct (as far as facts go), but the rhetoric often turns people off to what I am saying.  I guess that, considering that this is an Orthodox forum, I forget sometimes that non-Orthodox who may be affiliated with the group we are discussing, may be reading this.  In which case, let me begin by apologizing if I may have offended anyone, as it was not my intent.  My words were colored by genuine hurt, shock, and pain at the claims of this book, nothing more.


Okay, maybe I should’ve been clearer. Let’s keep it STRICTLY academic.
See above.  Smiley

Well I am not too sure what Fr. Chris meant exactly, but I think it would be safe to say that many people were won over to the Church through rational discourse and argument. St Justin Martyr is a prime example; he went on to use the dialectic method through which he was converted as a model to in turn assist the conversion of others. Nevertheless, as effective as rational discourse and argumentation can be instrumentally, it is not sufficient in and of itself, and I think the same goes for presenting a loving example. The deal-breaker/maker in the end has nothing to do with us—nothing to do with either our arguments or our loving examples—but everything to do with the inner sincerity, openness, and humility of the person we seek to win over to Christ, and ofcourse the will of God.
You are exactly correct!  Thank you for this insight.

I am not trying to tell you to not be shocked or hurt, but only to exercise a little empathy. If you read Morey carefully, it is clear he is not trying to be mean; it’s only natural for us to interpret something that undermines the very heart of our existence as such. Similarly, I’d be safe in presuming that many Protestants would consider Orthodox polemics against Protestantism—charges of abusing the scriptures, of being outside the true Church etc.—as being mean and hurtful.

You are correct here as well.  I didn't think of it that way.  I would hope that books by Orthodox refuting Protestants would be tempered with love and humility, and clearly a fair discussion (clear to both sides).  But I would have to agree with you that, were I Protestant, I would probably find any refutation written hurtful, no matter how well written.  I do want to note, however, that I have read several books by Protestants that refuted Orthodoxy.  I found one of them to be entirely fair, but it did not change my faith, simply because I just didn't agree with the author (but the tone of his writing was fair and, I would say, even humble.  His academics were also totally sound).  The second one that comes to mind, I also found to be fair.  His tone was, I thought, slightly unfair (for lack of a better word), and I did not agree with some of his conclusions, as well as a little bit of his academic method and sources.  Still, though, in general, I found it to be a sound book (in my own opinion).  The professor of the class for which I was reading these two books in particular, found them both to be good books, well written, academically sound, and perfectly fair.  He is a well-reputed Orthodox theologian and teacher at Hellenic College Holy Cross.  

That said, it is for the following reasons that I am hurt and offended by this book:
The entire purpose of the writing of the book, and the tone with which it has been summarized and reviewed (at least), I find invalid and biased.  He seems to write it NOT as an academic piece, like the other authors I mentioned, but rather as a propaganda tool to be used to combat Eastern Orthodoxy.  The rhetoric employed is offensive, in my opinion.  (some of the rhetoric I am specifically speaking of is mentioned in other posts)  As well, he has (again, according to the summary, as I have not read the book yet--- this is a very valid point on your part, having not read the book, that is) seemingly bastardized (pardon the expression-- mods, feel free to change if need be to something synonymous) the academic sources he is using.  

I am not assuming anything on behalf of anyone in particular let alone everyone. I am simply saying that polemics are by nature offensive to those whom they are targeted towards, and every ideology or faith necessarily produces such polemics for the sake of upholding and defending its own integrity. The Orthodox Church is no exception.

Again, you are correct here. Thank you...

Can you give a specific example of what you mean? What is a specific remark made by Morey that exemplifies this “behaviour” you speak of?

I am speaking here of the rhetoric employed against Eastern Orthodoxy in the outline, summary, review, and comments.  For example, he has an archived blog entry about the release of the book (the author, that is, not the reviewer).  
http://biblicalthought.com/blog/author/dr-robert-morey/ toward the bottom of the page, entitled "Oh, Happy Day!"

Besides the rhetoric employed being offensive, one of the comments attached to this blog entry was by an Orthodox man, simply saying:
Quote
As a former Calvinist (now Orthodox), and an acquaintance of Dr. Morey, this should be a fun read.

Long time no see Dr. Morey. Pretty soon, it will be Dr. Robinson.

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/o-happy-day/#comments

Dr. Morey responded in the following way:
Quote
Perry,
I heard a rumour years ago that you had drifted away from Christ after certain painful personal probems in your life. I hope you will read what I have written with an open mind.

Jude 3
DR. Morey

I should have mentioned this when I responded to your post, as it was one of the main reasons that I object to him and find him meanspirited and hurtful.  Dr. Morey's response was patronizing, and an attempt to undermine his credibility by implying that he does not have the emotional or psychological wherewithall to evaluate the credibility of the work, and ostensibly implying that he has been sucked into a cult (which is how he defines Eastern Orthodoxy on his "seminary's" website, noted in one of my posts above) because of those emotional/psychological problems.  It is an ad hominem and, I think, speaks volumes about this man's character.

If you did extensive and in-depth study on Protestant Christianity in consultation with reputable Protestant scholarship and in light of substantial first-hand experience with Protestant Christianity you would certainly make a point of indicating all such things so as to enhance your credibility. I don’t see what Morey did wrong in that regard. Unless ofcourse he’s lying about all that. But we have no way for sure of knowing if he is or not, so it would be foolish to suggest that he is being misleading. The only prudent reaction to his claims in this regard, in my opinion, would simply be to consider the conclusions he makes and the sources he bases them on, and to demonstrate how he has misinterpreted/misrepresented/misused those sources, thereby drawing false conclusions.

You are absolutely correct, and I should have delineated that this is what I meant.  I say that he is no expert because he has so obviously misrepresented the faith of the Orthodox, not so much because of his sources, but rather, his deliberate (I would say, because I find it hard to believe that it is a misunderstanding) misuse to further his agenda and propaganda.

Yes, but everyone has their own interpretation and understanding of when truth and love clash. Some Orthodox Christians would consider Protestants not Christian, and believe that to be a truth that no amount of love can compromise, and that perfect love demands be proclaimed; but anyway, let's not go there because it really is besides the point. Let me try and offer a better example: would you consider Mormons Christians? I would hope not (they deny the very fundamentals of the Christian Faith—the Trinity, Monotheism, the Incarnation), and yet how would you respond to a Mormon who sincerely believes he is a Christian and who would be offended to the core to hear you tell him you think he is not Christian? Morey sincerely believes the Orthodox have departed so far from the faith so as to be considered unchristian; we can fault him for the basis upon which he draws such a conclusion, but objectivity precludes us from accusing him of being offensive/rude/mean in a way we ourselves could not become victim to the very same accusations.

Your example is a good one.  My only response (other than you are correct) would be to say that I'm not so sure Morey sincerely believes that.  I don't know the man personally, so I'm not qualified to judge.  It suffices to say that I am very suspicious.  I think, based on what I've read so far, and what I have seen of his character, (lack of) academic scholarship, etc., that he has an agenda to push, at the very least.

I guess I should not not say that HE is offensive/rude/mean, you are correct.  I guess I should say, rather, that I find the entire premise of the book (and execution of the things I have read) offensive, I find his rhetoric and behavior (noted above as well as in other posts) rude, and the entire purpose of the book, as well as the behaviour, etc. meanspirited (I think that is a more adequate word than "mean" per se).

I certainly think they’re ridiculous; I don’t think they’re mean; not in any reasonably objective sense at least. That said, my point is simply that rather than spending pages making ad hominem attacks against a work we have not even read yet, let us keep such thoughts--thoughts which, in light of what we know of Orthodoxy, seem valid--to ourselves since they have more potential of working against us then for us in the context of a public forum. Just try to empathise; imagine that an Orthodox apologist produced a fantastic refutation of Mormonism for example, and then we, being predisposed in favour of the arguments made therein, stumble across a Mormon forum only to find all the members charging it with being ridiculous, stupid, idiotic, and God knows what else, without even addressing the substance at all and whilst admitting they haven't read the work yet! What would you think of these people? Would your own attitude to this book be likely to be weakened or strengthened?

You are absolutely right, and I hope that the other things I have said will show that I do desire to respond in an academic manner, motivated by truth and love.  Maybe that's a little more clear.  You are more than correct, as well, that I should have more empathy for his readers, rather than for him (which is what I think you were implying by giving the example of Mormons... correct me if I'm wrong, please).  I was directing my disgust at him, not his readers.

Morey claims to have spent much time amongst Orthodox, I’m sure he saw enough loving examples. In the end, neither arguments nor loving examples will suffice to convince someone like Morey--for reasons only God knows. Ultimately, however, I’d think rational discourse to be the more effective instrument were that essential element that concerns his inner man which none of us have access to, were in such a condition so as to be receptible to the Grace that leads to the Truth.

Again, you are correct.  Thank you so much for your clear insights.  I truly am taking them to heart, and, as I said in previous posts, I am delighted to see a movement on OC.net that wants to respond to him.  

I pray I haven't offended you at all, please forgive me if I have.  God bless you for your loving and truthful posts.  Thank you again!!!!
Presbytera Mari

P.S. Sorry for all the parenthetical phrases, I hope they are clear.  I just realized that I may have gotten a bit carried away, however, having been sick today, I'm about ready for bed and don't have the energy to go back and fix them.  My apologies.  Smiley


***Edited the formatting to fix quotes.  Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2008, 11:34:26 PM »

I think he is referring to Frank Shaeffer's father, the famous Protestant minister Francis Shaeffer.

You are correct.  I realized that while I was posting my last (I've gotten a little winded on this topic, I think-- please forgive!) post.  But I do still think that it may be an indicator... most people who know about Francis Shaeffer know of his son, who even had a Christian production company prior to converting, not to mention being as vocal as his father. 

Thanks for pointing that out!  Smiley
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« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2008, 12:49:15 AM »

I agree with Riddikulus. We have to pick our battles. I'll help all of you settle this right now.  HWC, the guy that started the post, has'nt been here since 1/22/08. Furthermore, this is his only post. I've seen these guys come and go. They log on, drop a bombshell and run.
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« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2008, 01:08:32 AM »

Regardless of the fact that the person who started this is not around and that arguing with the convinced is fairly useless, I still feel that some kind of response might be appropriate.  My reason is for people who are like me--convinced of Orthodoxy but not all the way in.  People who are on the way to being convinced but would be derailed by the tripe that Dr. Morey is writing.  For some his seemingly well-researched tome might become a stumblingblock to embracing the Truth of Orthodoxy.   I know that the solidly Orthodox can probably refute this stuff in their sleep, but for those of us who are far less adept and knowledgeable, it might prove to be a great service for someone to forcefully, authoritatively and academically answer these ostensibly scholarly writings.  Just my thoughts.
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« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2008, 02:21:15 PM »

Why don't we take a look at Dr. Morey?? Is he an actual theologian in the Reformed movement?? Or is that just a label attached to him??

If so....we may be better served by utilizing some resources and texts on the Reformed Movement from that tradition itself. I'm willing to read this book if that's the route we want to go....



The folks at Orthodoxinfo.com have already interacted with them in the past. This isn't the first time that the Reformed tried to bash Orthodoxy. In the articles called "Miles from the Truth" as well as "The UnReformed Truth:" They deal with what the Reformed have written in one of their journals about Orthodoxy due to alot of their kids becoming Orthodox in Reformed seminaries. 

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_reformed.aspx





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« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2008, 02:37:44 PM »

I agree with you totally.  This was a very insightful post, thank you JNorm!  How would you suggest we go about it (internet vs. book)?  I'm not sure I actually have an answer except to say both, starting with something on goarch.org and the other Orthodox jurisdiction's websites (all of them would be more effective than one of them).  Also, somebody mentioned in the comments the possibility of a debate between him and a priest.  Maybe someone who is well versed in Orthodoxy with a degree and a good reputation should do this.  It would be especially effective, to my mind, if it was actually a convert, as then one of his arguments is automatically short-circuited.  My instinct is to say all three of these things, debate (or dialogue, I should say), internet, and books.  The question is, would his audience of readers be interested?  I would think they would be inclined to dismiss any response from us, unless it was a response that was a direct response to Morey's claims in an open forum (such as a debate/diologue).  They might come to hear Morey, but what they would hear (God willing that He soften their hearts to hear the truth) is the Truth and beauty of Orthodoxy.  Can anyone think of someone who might be willing to take on this ever-important task?



I would like to post my rejoinders on "Orthodoxchristianity.net" forums. As well as my blogs.

I don't know what everyone else is going to do.




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« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2008, 03:08:45 PM »

We'd be happy to host that content. Do you wish to form a team?
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« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »

Yay Team!
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« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2008, 07:21:30 PM »

Just make sure everything that's posted here from that book is properly cited and referenced.  If the guy's willing to publish false claims about the Orthodox, I have very little doubt that he would bring legal action for unintended plaigarism.
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« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2008, 08:06:09 PM »

I would like everyone that is interested in this project to send me an email to anastasios0513@yahoo.com with subject "Refuting Morey"

I will gather a list of participants, and then we can appoint a team lead to move the project along.
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« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2008, 11:39:21 PM »

We'd be happy to host that content. Do you wish to form a team?


Sure! I would love that.






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« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2008, 12:06:26 AM »

So far one person has emailed me. Let's keep the momentum coming!
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« Reply #114 on: February 07, 2008, 06:42:29 AM »

2 so far...let's keep it coming Smiley
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« Reply #115 on: February 07, 2008, 09:28:36 AM »

2 so far...let's keep it coming Smiley

C'mon folks - I know we have more than just 2 people who are willing & able to help with this!
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« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2008, 10:33:54 AM »

I'd like to set a goal of having five participants on this--four active researchers/writers and one team lead/editor. We're 2/5 of the way there.
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« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2008, 12:38:01 PM »

4/5 of the way there (more are welcome of course).
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« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2008, 04:24:18 PM »

Will EkhristosAnesti be joining us? I would love to hear what he has to say about the early coptics and gnostics in Egypt.




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« Reply #119 on: February 07, 2008, 06:47:18 PM »

Will you be compiling and posting this information chapter by chapter here?  Or wait until you're all finished and post once? I'd like to read along, but am not versed enough in early church history/doctrine to participate other any other way. 
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« Reply #120 on: February 07, 2008, 07:53:51 PM »

No proposals have been made but working drafts could be made on the forum and the final version could be posted on the articles section of the site.
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« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2008, 06:21:29 PM »

Looking for 1-2 more volunteers and then we will kick it off.
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« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2008, 10:52:27 PM »

^This seems interesting...I would do it if I had the time. Currently full-time both at work and school. I hope someone can step up to the plate and produce something that refutes the nonsense that's in this book.
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« Reply #123 on: February 12, 2008, 07:05:26 PM »

The book just came in. It's about 170 pages. Some of the issues in the book have been handled by Orthodoxinfo.com

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ca4_loukaris.aspx


http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cyril_Lucaris

For instance, Morey tries the old protestant reformed argument of the Ecumenical Patriarch Cyril Lucaris(1572-1638) and how he tried to make Eastern Orthodoxy into a Reformed protestant church. I know that some Orthodox believe that his confession was a forgery. But whatever the case......it's naive of a protestant to think that the Orthodox are just gonna give up the Faith once handed to the Saints for a secterian and heretical belief system.


Some conservative prespyterians try to use the same argument on the Episcopals/Anglicans when it comes to the WCF(Westminister Confession of Faith).

The Anglicans don't embrace the WCF so the Prespyterians see them as rejecting the true biblical faith. The WCF came about during the British civil war with Oliver Cromwell.


But I'm gonna give it a read and handle the parts I already know about.









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« Reply #124 on: February 12, 2008, 08:59:37 PM »

I'll be contacting all the volunteers shortly. I believe we have all that we need now to make this a go. If anyone else is interested though please let me know.
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« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2008, 12:22:20 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.
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« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2008, 02:21:53 AM »

Link to Perry Robinson (aka Acolyte4236)'s review on Amazon.com:  http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Orthodoxy-Christian-Robert-Morey/dp/1931230358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202883447&sr=1-1
(Scroll down the page to Customer Reviews.  Perry's review is at the top of the list.)

Perry, since you have now posted on this forum, I won't post any text from your review without first receiving your permission to do so.  BTW, a big, hearty welcome to the OC.net discussion forum.  Thank you for finding us. Grin

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« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2008, 02:30:54 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.

So brother have you actually met this man?
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« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2008, 05:23:45 AM »

He did state this:
Quote
I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually.
  Wink
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« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2008, 05:58:13 AM »

He did state this:  Wink

Αριστοκλής have you ever heard of a framing question? It is a question that sounds redundant but is really like asking "Please tell us more about Morey brother Perry" at the risk of sounding like I am forcing an answer out of Perry I phrased it in this innocent way. Smiley sorry for any space on the OC.net servers which I have wasted   laugh
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« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2008, 10:39:41 AM »

Hullo,

I am the former Calvinist who posted on Morey's blog. I know Morey personally, at least a bit more than casually. I have read the book and posted a review on amazon as well as made critical comments on his blog concerning it. If you'd like more information about the book or Morey,  you can contact me via my blog at www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Thanks,

Perry Robinson

For verification purposes, if "Cyril"/Irish Hermit is who I think he is, then he can vouch for my identity.


Just wanted to say welcome to the forum, Perry!  I was absolutely thrilled to see you posting your comments on the website posted earlier in this thread.  I thought Dr. Morey's comment toward you was inflammatory and unfair, and it was nice to see you respond in such a kind, Christian manner to his lack of charity.  I hope that you'll join in our little project.  Please feel free to contribute to the project!  We're glad to have you on the forum, and hope that you'll stay with us for a long time!  Welcome!

God bless you!
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« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2008, 03:08:19 PM »

Feel free to cite the review on Amazon to your heart's content.

I know Morey from when I worked at CRI from 1990-1992. He came in to the BAM show during one week from back east. I carted him around Orange County during his stay for a week or so. After my termination from CRI for whistle blowing, I kept in lose contact with Morey via Mike Stephens who after his termination from CRi for essentially the same reason, went to work for Morey as his program manager. Every few years there'd be another purge of employees by Hanagraaf and I would make the phone rounds letting other axed individuals know what was going on.

In any case, I got wind of Morey's book in December. It grew out of a series on CD he did. I wasn't going to  pay 65 bucks to hear Morey trash talk Orthodoxy. I have been Orthodox for nearly ten years now. There is a lot I don't know. But I do have a good grasp on core theological concepts and the theological "mechanics" or the logic of Orthodox teaching. I wasn't going to listen to hours of Morey on Orthodoxy for 65 bucks. So when I heard about the book, 17 bucks was cheaper than 65 bucks.

Morey is sarcastic and caustic. Its an act. Just don't let him bully you and don't get offended. When he bellows, bellow back and usually he'll shut up, change the subject or run away, like brave sir robin claiming victory with his tail between his legs.

HWC I suspect is Stephen Macasil or some other toady of Morey's. They've beern going around to Orthodox venue's trolling.

Morey's book isn't worth reading. Perhaps it is worth writing a detailed refutation, just because the book is so entirely bad that it may ensnare some ignorant laymen, Protestant or Orthodox. Any Reformed person with half a brain will ignore it and probably read Letham or Fairbairn instead. And although they have significant defects (Fairbain advocates nestorianism, though he seems unaware of it, and Letham advocates Monothelitism, though he doesn't think he is, but he is nonetheless) they aren't anywhere near as bad as Morey's book.

Morey's book is filled with misquotations, ad hom's, non-sequiturs and fallacies of just about every kind imaginable. I suspect that he did not do the "research" but farmed it out to his toadies and then collected the notes and put the book together. A clean 20% of the sources are tracts and popular books-tracts from conciliar press, ya know the small ones from the Jack Sparks/Gilquist crowd and other pop books like the Orthodox Church from A-Z. There are a few scholarly works used like Russell and Pelikan's work on Icons, but they are so grossly misquoted and/or deployed in a misleading fashion as to make a 90 day Watchtower wonder blush.

Morey doesn't have that significant of a voice among Calvinists. Thats for a few basic reasons.Anyone among them with a brain knows his "scholarship" isn't. 2nd he's a reformed baptist and most Reformation folk are Presbys, Dead Dutchmen or Lutherans. Reformed Baptists are kind of like the hyper active kidn the family tolerates at family gatherings but just wishes that they would shut up or go away or get adopted. Morey has a little following, his books are pop and nothing serious.

The best way to deal with the book is to just chart the dishonest methodology. Arguing theology with these people is not a feasible option. First they are so filled with prejudice that they pretty much see you as the spawn of satan. You should have seen the look on their faces when I was out there in January and inserted myself into a conversation while they were talking about the "damnable doctrines" of Orthodoxy and told them I was Orthodox. So is kind of like arguing with any cultist, you have to discredit their authority first by that authority's dishonest behavior. You gotta take the Watchtower out of the Witness before you take the Witness out of the Watchtower. The same thing applies here with Morey's little cult. These people seriously think he is a major Reformed scholar. He isn't and no serious Reformed theologian alive today thinks so either. His work isn't published in peer reviewed venues and this book is self published, which says it all really. But damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead, as it were. Besides, his grasp of Orthodox theology, let alone basic teaching concerning God as well as philosophy and history are so bad, painfully so. So for example, around page 83 or so, if memory serves ( I don't have the bk handy at the moment) he has a chart which is supposed to illustrate how Aristotle posits a dichotomy between essence and form. Uhm, any of my first year students knows that this is false for two basic reasons. First, essence and form mean the SAME THING IN ARISTOTLE. uh, hello? 2nd, Aristotle has a substance/accident dialectic, not dichotomy. Its silly mistakes like these that show that Morey knows little if anything about philosophy or the history of thought.

The book isn't good enough to be wrong. It's just stupid.
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« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2008, 03:44:10 PM »

I wonder if I should buy a used copy to use for refutation. Sometimes it's good to know what your enemy thinks. I am surprised that an Evangelical Protestant actually knows who St Cyril is though Wink

I think you may mean 'heard of' and "know who St. Cyril is"...

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« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2008, 07:00:36 PM »

Here is something else to consider. I wouldn't be suprised if either Morey's book or ones like it (Letham, Fairbairn, etc. ) end up in the hands of prot missionaries in Russia or elsewhere. If any of you are competent in Russian (I am not) you might think of translating whatever you put together.
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« Reply #134 on: February 13, 2008, 08:17:47 PM »

Hey Rob,


I was wondering if you could give a critique of Morey's treatment of Plato and Apophatic theology? You know alot about Philosophy so I thought your insight would be helpful.


I was gonna nuetralize some of his speculations by quoting a few things from another Protestant evangelical. Daniel B. Clendenin wrote a few books about Orthodoxy.

In the book called "Eastern Orthodox Christianity: A western perspective" he writes



"The hymnology of the fourth -century Christian poet Ephrem the Syrian adds its choruses to the testimony of the liturgy. Since Ephrem wrote in Syriac and was probably ignorant of Greek, his hyms are significant refutations of the common charge that the Orthodox doctrine of theosis is only a pale imitation of Hellenistic philosophy."
page 129 copyright 1994,2003 by Daniel B. Clendenin from the book "Eastern Orthodox Christianity(second edition) A western perspective. Published by Baker Academic


I was gonna quote this because Morey thinks the Eastern Orthodox view of Deification came from Paganism.

I was gonna give a mixture of both Orthodox and Protestant sources so that the reader could see that Morey was wrong.









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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #135 on: February 14, 2008, 09:08:22 AM »

Dear Dr. Robinson,

I'm not Orthodox (as you can see from my profile) but I'm very interested in this discussion.

I think your review on Amazon is very good. Hopefully it will save some unsuspecting inquirers from Dr. Morey's snares.

Morey's book isn't worth reading.

I don't think I will.

Welcome to the forum and God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #136 on: February 14, 2008, 10:08:25 AM »

PJ,

I am not a doctor yet. I have a BA and an MA in philosophy and am about halfway thru my doctoral work in the same field. But thanks.
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« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2008, 11:14:23 PM »

I started working on it.


This is what I have so far.


Chapter 1

He says on Page 15 that Eastern Orthodoxy started out well. He speculates from what happened in Acts chapter 2:10 that many Jewish converts went back to their homelands and converted other Jews into the Christian Faith. He then fantasizes about how glorious and wonderful the Church and it’s pastors were. However, he has no documentation for this. He just declares it and expects us to take his word for it.

He goes on to talk about how hostile the early Egyptian Church was to Pagan philosophy.
He quotes Dr. Frend, the professor of Church history at the University of Glasgow to support his argument that the early Egyptian Church was against pagan philosophy. However, neither the New Testament nor the Apostolic Fathers that he quotes say anything about Christianity in Egypt.

He talks about  how 1st Clement never quoted any Stoic writer to supprt his convictions about the Stability of the Universe, but clement wasn’t in Egypt. He was in the West. And just because someone makes use of Pagan philosophy, that doesn’t mean they agree with everything the philosopher said. A prime example of this is Saint Paul in Acts Chapter 17 when he quotes Aratus.

NKJV
Acts 17:28
'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

 He mentions Polycarp who was the Bishop of Smynia not Egypt, and his pupil Irenaeus moved to Gaul(modern day France). Non of this tells us about early Egyptian Christianity.

On page 16 Morey continues with the idea that the Egyptian Jewish Church eventually attracted gentile converts. Eventhough he is talking about early Eastern Orthodoxy he makes it seem as if the "PARISH" was like some sort of Baptist congregational Church with the repetitive use of words like “the pastor” or “the Jewish pastors”. He mentions how the Jewish pastors were thrilled to have gentile converts. I wonder where Morey got this from? Did he invent this from thin air? How does he know they were happy at first?

Whatever the case, this is where his conspiracy theory begins. He develops the plot of  gentiles taking over the leadership of the Church and kicking Jewish Christians out. He says the Gentile Egyptian Church persecuted the Jewish wing as a sect.


He quotes Dr. Frend again to prove this point. However, the quote he gives is ambiguous. Frend mentions how in the 2nd century there were many Christians who were nonconformist Jews. In this quote he shows the enmity between Orthodox(nonbelieving) Jews and christian Jews. He mentions the essenes, but it is unclear what he is trying to say. The quote ends with the mention of an active Jewish Christianity by the year 190 that has been reduced to a sect.

From my recollection the Ebionites were the Jewish community that were called a sect by Early Chistians. And I doubt if Morey wants to be associated with them. It would seem more likely that Jewish Christianity merged with it’s gentile counterpart. Jewish believers and Gentile believers eventually intermarried. If one looks at how Orthodox(nonbelieving) Jews worship in the synagogue with how Orthodox Christians worship in the churches. Then one will see a strong continuity of thought, ritual, and custom. Morey tries to use Dr. Frend to support his theory of the fall of Jewish Christianity in Egypt, but from the look of his quotes I doubt if Frend was talking about Egypt at all.

Any student of Church history will know that most sects and heretical groups lived side by side with the Orthodox Church. Most heretical groups were persecuted after 380 A.D. and even with that it took centuries. And it wasn’t done by the Church. It was done by the State.

On page 17 he asserts that the political rule of the Church was total. That’s not accurate.
He exaggerates the political arm of the state over the Church. It was the Church that eventually made the state close down the gladiatorial games. It was the laity of the Church that eventually made the state stop destroying Icons. There were times of peace as well as times of friction between the State and Church.


The rest of chapter 1
 Pages 18-21 is gonna take a few days to cover




If I said anything that was wrong or not 100%ly correct please feel free to correct me.


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« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2008, 11:46:32 PM »

I’ll deal with chapter 2 later.


In Chapter 3 on page 41 he says that the World view of Origen and those who followed him were thoroughly pagan. He speculates that there were no Jewish or Biblical elements in their thinking about Theology, Anthropology and the World. He thinks that Origen succeeded in Hellenizing Christianity.

Origen had Jewish teachers. He spoke to Jews to learn about their Hebrew books and he compiled what was called “the Hexapla”. The Hexapla is what we would call a “parallel Bible” today. It was an Old Testament Bible with both the Greek and Hebrew. He was an avid admirer of Philo. Philo was a Jewish greek philosopher that used Judaic thought with Greek philosophy. If one reads the Gospel of John one will see that Christians made use of Philo’s work. Now even though Origen was declared heretical in the 6th century. He was influenced by Jews and Judaic thought.

This quote from Origen shows that eventhough he respected some greek philosophers he knew that they were foolish.

“We testify of certain Greek philosophers that they knew God, seeing “He manifested Himself to them, although “they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful, but became vain in their imaginations; and professing themselves to be wise, they became foolish.” Origen (248 A.D.)

and Clement of Alexandria who is not called a Saint in the Orthodox church had this to say.

“Well, be it so that “the thieves and robbers” are the philosophies among the greeks, who before the coming of the Lord received fragments of the truth from the Hebrew prophets. They claimed these as their own teaching, without complete understanding of them.” Clement of Alexandria (195 A.D.)


This doesn’t sound like being succumbed by Greek Philosophy to me. Anyone that read Origen and Clement would know that they had a critical eye in this regard.

There were Christians that had knowledge of greek philosophy. Saint Paul had knowledge of it and used it to his advantage. The same with Justin Martyre, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. ….not to mention a few others. But most Christians of this time didn’t like greek philosophy. Morey refuses to accept the fact that greek philosophy was used to convert the greek pagan world.

If learning about greek philosophy is sinful then John Calvin must be awful since he was a humanist scholar! He was tought Humanism at the University of France and his works is riddled with Aristotelian logic. It is well known that the Protestant Reformation was heavily influenced by the Renaissance, and alot of Baptist churches were influenced by the Enlightenment. But unlike the influence of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Orthodoxy never based the foundation of the Faith on greek philosophical thought. So the finger pointing can go both ways. In the end I think it is safe to say that Greek Philosophy has some value. It can be put to some good use.




Please feel free to correct me. also feel free to add whatever you think I'm missing.


You can erase the post right below this one. I messed up.
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2008, 11:56:44 PM »

I’ll deal with chapter 2 later.


In Chapter 3 on page 41 he says that the World view of Origen and those who followed him were thoroughly pagan. He speculates that there were no Jewish or Biblical elements in their thinking about Theology, Anthropology and the World. He thinks that Origen succeeded in Hellenizing Christianity.

Origen had Jewish teachers. He spoke to Jews to learn about their Hebrew books and he compiled what was called “the Hexapla”. The Hexapla is what we would call a “parallel Bible” today. It was an Old Testament Bible with both the Greek and Hebrew. He was an avid admirer of Philo. Philo was a Jewish greek philosopher that used Judaic thought with Greek philosophy. If one reads the Gospel of John one will see that Christians made use of Philo’s work. Now even though Origen was declared heretical in the 6th century. He was influenced by Jews and Judaic thought.

This quote from Origen shows that eventhough he respected some greek philosophers he knew that they were foolish.

“We testify of certain Greek philosophers that they knew God, seeing “He manifested Himself to them, although “they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful, but became vain in their imaginations; and professing themselves to be wise, they became foolish.” Origen (248 A.D.)

and Clement of Alexandria who is not called a Saint in the Orthodox church.

“Well, be it so that “the thieves and robbers” are the philosophies among the greeks, who before the coming of the Lord received fragments of the truth from the Hebrew prophets. They claimed these as their own teaching, without complete understanding of them.” Clement of Alexandria (195 A.D.)


This doesn’t sound like being succumbed by Greek Philosophy to me. Anyone that read Origen and Clement would know that they had a critical eye in this regard.

There were Christians that had knowledge of greek philosophy. Saint Paul had knowledge of it and used it to his advantage. The same with Justin Martyre, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. ….not to mention a few others. But most Christians of this time didn’t like greek philosophy. Morey refuses to accept the fact that greek philosophy was used to convert the greek pagan world.

If learning about greek philosophy is sinful then John Calvin must be awful since he was a humanist scholar! He was tought Humanism at the University of France and his works is riddled with Aristotelian logic. So the finger pointing can go both ways. In the end I think it is right to say that Greek philosophy has some value.




Please feel free to correct me. also feel free to add whatever you think I'm missing.
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #140 on: February 17, 2008, 12:26:20 AM »

I have sent emails to the four people who contacted me about joining the effort.  If you did not receive my email and are interested please PM me or email me at anastasios0513@yahoo.com.

We will set up a team lead, scope, and then begin dividing up the work and writing.

In Christ,

Anastasios

PS looking at my email list I don't see jnorman's email in it so I will send it to him now as I see he has already started putting his thoughts down.
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« Reply #141 on: March 02, 2008, 12:46:44 AM »

OK, I have sent out another email since the last one went basically unanswered save one person; John Torrey Gilday of our forum is the project manager for this important work. I've sent out a second email.  Let's get the ball rolling. If anyone has any comments or wants things to proceed in any certain way please make your suggestion back in the email. Otherwise let's divide up the book and get at it. Who has gone ahead and ordered a copy of this work, etc?
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« Reply #142 on: March 02, 2008, 12:58:14 AM »

I set up a private forum to discuss the project; if you are not a member of the private forum and are in on this project please let me know and I will add you.
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« Reply #143 on: March 04, 2008, 09:52:02 PM »

Where is the private forum?

Wait......let me look for it.


I would like to compare and contrast with what other people have done.


nevermind. I got your e-mail.



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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2008, 12:55:52 AM »

Morey attacks the LXX in chapter 3 of his book. Feel free to edit whereever you see fit.

I didn't touch everything he mentioned but I responded to a huge chunk of it.


http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-lxx-shouldnt-be-judged-by-mt.html


Why the LXX shouldn't be judged by the MT

When some reformed protestants say the LXX is corrupt. What they mean is it differs from the MT. The MT is not the original hebrew text type. Infact, there are several different Hebrew text types. The LXX follows a different Hebrew text type and besides, the MT was butchered(edited) in certain parts by nonbelieving jews for theological reasons.

The LXX shouldn't be judged by the MT, because the MT is a post Christian Hebrew text that has been edited and compiled from about 150 A.D. to about 900A.D.

The LXX is a 3rd or 2nd century B.C. Greek Translation of an earlier Hebrew text. And when the dead sea scrolls were found. The LXX cynics were surprized to find out that where the Dead Sea scrolls differed substantialy from the MT it usually agreed with the LXX. Now the LXX and the MT agree in most places, but in some parts they do differ. What we have today is called by scholars the "Hexaplar recension". It is called that because it is a combined text of the hebrew of Origens day along with 5 or 6 greek translations. 3 of which were post christian literal greek translations by nonbelieving Jews that rejected christianity. The LXX had it's own colomn in the Hexaplar. Thus the Hexaplar was what we would call in modern times a Parallel Bible. A couple other recension texts were also around as spoken of by Jerome.

Tertullian speaks about the Hebrew text type that the LXX was based on, which was still in existence in his day.



"That the understanding of their books might not be lacking, this also the
Jews supplied to ptolemy. For they gave him seventy-two interpreters......The
same account is given by Aristeas. So the King left these works unlocked to all,
in the Greek language. To this day, at the temple of serapis, the libraries of
Ptolemy are to be seen, with the identical Hebrew originals in them. The Jews,
too, read them publicly."
Tertullian(197 A.D.) [1]

[1]page 608 dictionary of early christian beliefs. David Bercot,
Hendrickson publishers




The Serapeum temple would have been destroyed around 391 A.D. with the Decree of Theophilus. Just because the Temple was destroyed doesn't mean the books were destroyed with it.




A list of Some Pre-nicene christians that quoted the deutoros




"When you can do good, defer it not, because alms
delivers from death"[tobit 4:10; 12:9]

Polycarp 135 A.D.

"Cyrus, King of the Persians, said to Daniel, the
prophet, "why do you not worship Bel?" Daniel replied, saying, "Because I do not
worship idols made with hands" [Dan. 14, also known as Bel and the
Dragon].
Irenaeus 180 A.D.

"For that reason, the scripture most strenuously
exhorts, "Do not introduce everyone into your house, for the snares of the
crafty are many" [Sir 11:29]
Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

"Who is this but Christ? They say, "come, let us remove
the righteous one, because he is hateful to us; he sets himself contrary to our
doings" [Wis. 2:12].
Tertullian 207 A.D.


"They are all clearly described in the books of the
Maccabees"
Hippolytus 205 A.D.

"That we may believe on the authority of the Holy
Scriptures that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the
mother of seven martyrs exhorts her sons to endore torture, this truth is
confirmed."
Origen 225 A.D.


[2]page 208 A dictionary of early beliefs, David Bercot, Hendrickson
publishers




The Post Nicene christian Saint Athanasius also embraced some of the deuterocanonical books in his 3 class system of books. His 3 tier system of Canonical scripture(which included the books of Baruch, and the letter of Jeremiah), the scripture that is read(the rest of the deutero books), and the uninspired Apocrypha(other books like the Apocalypse of Peter, the Apocalypse of Abraham, the book of Noah, the apocalypse of Adam, Acts of Peter, Ascension of Isaiah.....ect).

And according to Gary G. Michuta in the book "Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger: The untold story of the lost books of the Protestant Bible"(copyright 2007 Published by Grotto Press). He says on page 111

"In another argument against Arians, he(Athanasius) calls both the Protocanonical Proverbs and the Deuterocanonical Wisdom "Holy Scripture" [sacris litteris/tais hagiais graphais].234

his source

234 Defense Against Arius 1, 3 [L. quod in Sacris Litteris scriptum est (Prv 19:5; Ws 1:11); GK. ou phobountai de hen tais hagiais Graphais gegrammenon].



Comparing Some verses of the Dead Sea scrolls with the LXX and MT.


Also I would like to note that the dead sea scrolls had the books of Tobias, Sirach, Baruch, and psalm 151 of David.

The LXX and the dead sea "4QSam-a" are very similar.


How tall was Goliath?

1 Samuel 17:4 of the dead sea scroll "4QSam-a" says "4 cubits and one span". The LXX says:



SAAS
1st Kingdoms 17:4(1st Samuel 17:4) "And a mighty man went out from the
battle line of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath. His height was four
cubits and a span
."




The MT says



KJV
1st Samuel 17:4 "And there went out a champion out of the camp of the
Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a
span.
"




Recent Archeology of the middle eastern region in regards to the ancient tales of giants in that area agrees with the dead sea scrolls and LXX of 4 cubits and a span.



4QGen-k fragment has the longer reading of "and dry land appeared" in its text.

The LXX says


SAAS
Gen 1:9 "Then God said, let the water under heaven be gathered together
into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. The water under
heaven was gathered into its places, and the dry land appeared."



The MT says


"9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one
place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."



This shows the Hebrew that the LXX was based on was very similar to the one of the dead sea scrolls. At least in regards to Genesis.


4Q Exod-a of the DSS says of Exodus 1:5 "75 souls"

The lxx says:


SAAS
"All those who were the seed of Jacob were seventy-five persons (for
Joseph was in Egypt already)."



The MT says:



KJV
"And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls:
for Joseph was in Egypt already."



The Dead sea scroll fragment agreed with the LXX. Also the New Testament agrees with the LXX.

Acts chapter 7:14 says:

"Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people."

Steven quoted the LXX, yet some people would like to re-write history and pretent that Jesus and the Apostles didn't make use of the LXX. Also some people would like to pretent that the LXX only had the first five books of Moses. The fact that the New Testament quotes the LXX in other places shows that the LXX had more books in it than just the first 5 books of Moses.



4QDeut-j in Deuteronomy 32:8 agrees with the LXX in that it has "according to the number of the sons of God"



LXX says:



SAAS
"When the Most High divided the nations, when He scattered the Sons of
Adam, He set the boundaries of the nations by the number of God's angels"




The MT says



KJV
"When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he
separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the
number of the children of Israel."




The 5/6HevPs of Psalm 22:17 says "They have pierced my hands and feet"

The LXX says:



Psalms 21:17(22:17 in MT) "For many dogs surrounded me; an assembly of evildoers
enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet."


The MT says:



KJV
"I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me."






The New Testament in comparision with the LXX and MT



Luke 3:35-36 "Cainan" is missing in the MT between Arphaxed and Selah


NKJV
"he son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the
son of Noah, the son of Lamech,"



Gen 10:24 of the LXX says



Brenton's lxx
"And Arphaxad begot Cainan, and Cainan begot Sala. And Sala begot
Heber."



Gen 10:24 of The MT says:


KJV
"And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber."




What did Jesus read in Luke 4:18-19?



NKJV Luke 4:16-21
""So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom
was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He
was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He
found the place where it was written:

“ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me To preach the
gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal
the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the
captives And recovery of sight to the
blind, To set at liberty those who are
oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable
year of the LORD.”


Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and
sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And
He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your
hearing.”"




The LXX says:


Brentons lxx Isaiah 61:1-2
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent
me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim
liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind; to declare
the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of recompence; to comfort all that
mourn;"




The MT says


KJV Isaiah 61:1-2
""The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me
to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the
prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of
the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that
mourn;""





You can't really see it in english but Jesus followed the greek of the LXX.



Matthew 1:22-23 says:


NKJV
"So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the
Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and
bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God
with us.”





Brentons LXX says:


Esaias 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall
conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name
Emmanuel."




The MT says

Well. I wasn't able to find a translation that went with the MT. Instead, they all chose to go with the LXX. But the MT says young woman......not virgen. However, there is evidence that the Jews who used the dead sea scrolls did understand that hebrew word in a similar way that the Jewish translaters of the LXX did. So it could have been a common interpretation before the time of Christ as well as during the time of Christ. The MT was edited for hundreds of years after 150 A.D. It is well known that the Jewish nonbelievers edited alot of the Messianic prophecies because of the rise of Christianity, and conversion of their own peoples.



Romans 9:17 says

NKJV
"For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”"

The LXX of Exodus 9:16 says:
Brentons lxx
"And for this purpose hast thou been preserved, that I might display in thee my strength, and that my name might be published in all the earth."


The NASB says of Exodus 9:16
"But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth."


New Testament

Romans 9:26 NKJV
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘ You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Old Testament

The SAAS
Hosea 1:10
"Yet the Number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall not be measured or numbered. Then it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' Even then they shall be called the sons of the living God."


The MT says

KJV
"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."


You can't see it in english but Paul was following the LXX in Romans 9:25-26. The same is true for Romans 9:27; 9:29; and 9:33.


It is well known that the LXX was the Christian Old Testament. Yes you had a few christians from time to time that had their own personal view against the LXX, but over all when pushed came to shove and when big councils gathered. The LXX stayed with the Church. To Judge the LXX with the eyes of the MT is to judge the Old Testament that Christians used for 2,000 years.



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« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2008, 01:04:47 AM »

I'm pretty much done with my rejoinder of chapters 1 & 3. I responded to a little bit of chapter 2. There are two more things that I would like to respond to in chapters 4 and I think 5 or 6. after that I should be done.





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« Reply #146 on: March 09, 2008, 01:06:43 AM »

John,

Can you please hold off posting any more re: refuting Dr. Morey's book until we figure out who is on board with the project??

Thank you

In XC
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« Reply #147 on: March 09, 2008, 01:31:29 AM »

ok
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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« Reply #148 on: March 09, 2008, 01:36:34 AM »

Thanks.

Next week we will get started. It might just be you and me though.
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« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2008, 12:04:48 PM »

Due to time constraints I cannot read this entire thread but I did peruse the summary of contents of the book being discussed. This book seems to present the view of its advocates that I am saved and you are not which is an ultimate arrogance. While an Orthodox Christian, (as I understand) has the true faith it is not for us to assume other Christians or other people will not have salvation in the eyes of God (and not to preach apocotastasis). The concept of the book is to assume that the church was hijacked within a generation & from this we may conclude that any early Christian testimonies like the epistles of St Ignatius, St Aristedes, St Clement of Rome etc. are not "Biblical." Such a secenario seems to be the setting of a virtual reality game in which you assume you know the Bible and all who have striven to maintain the faith through history are unreal. There is no mention of the great schism or martyrs in the contents and there seems to be a disjointed section on Pr Cyril Lukaris who was murdered by the Ottomans & not Orthodox Christians. The fact that Cyril Lukaris presented the letter of Clement to King Charles I of England who was a high church Anglican I would think not sit well within the framework of this book. Additionally the fact that Charles I was beheaded by Puritan extremists for his "popish" Anglicanism, (not to mention Anglican Archbishop Laud ) I also wonder if it is mentioned. As far as Buddha being a saint, the closest analogy I ever heard was from St Justin the martyr as him being a virtuous pagan that perceded the incarnation of Jesus Christ Lord and Saviour. Personally I have been catechized into the faith where the 10 commndments, the Beatitudes, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and (most important) the holy Eucharist are paramount from what "Egyptian mystery" are these derived? I thought they were from the Holy Bible. Our Saviour told us to venerate His blessed mother and the fact the wise men saw the Theotokos & Christ child (per Matthew 2:11) & worshipped Him is the most basic premise of illusration in the blessed icons. Forgive me for being too critical but this book seems to be a sham. This is not to say there are Protesant perspectives and critical analyses of Orthodoxy that lack integrity. For ex there is an extended one from an organization founded by Billy Graham which calls for the "need" to "evangelize" the Orthodox but does not denigrate the historical truth of the apostolic churches http://www.lausanne.org/pattaya-1980/lop-19.html So there are points of debate of varying quality obviously. Just my 2 cents from a general layperson.
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« Reply #150 on: March 18, 2008, 04:51:30 PM »

Due to time constraints I cannot read this entire thread but I did peruse the summary of contents of the book being discussed. This book seems to present the view of its advocates that I am saved and you are not which is an ultimate arrogance. While an Orthodox Christian, (as I understand) has the true faith it is not for us to assume other Christians or other people will not have salvation in the eyes of God (and not to preach apocotastasis). The concept of the book is to assume that the church was hijacked within a generation & from this we may conclude that any early Christian testimonies like the epistles of St Ignatius, St Aristedes, St Clement of Rome etc. are not "Biblical." Such a secenario seems to be the setting of a virtual reality game in which you assume you know the Bible and all who have striven to maintain the faith through history are unreal. There is no mention of the great schism or martyrs in the contents and there seems to be a disjointed section on Pr Cyril Lukaris who was murdered by the Ottomans & not Orthodox Christians. The fact that Cyril Lukaris presented the letter of Clement to King Charles I of England who was a high church Anglican I would think not sit well within the framework of this book. Additionally the fact that Charles I was beheaded by Puritan extremists for his "popish" Anglicanism, (not to mention Anglican Archbishop Laud ) I also wonder if it is mentioned. As far as Buddha being a saint, the closest analogy I ever heard was from St Justin the martyr as him being a virtuous pagan that perceded the incarnation of Jesus Christ Lord and Saviour. Personally I have been catechized into the faith where the 10 commndments, the Beatitudes, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and (most important) the holy Eucharist are paramount from what "Egyptian mystery" are these derived? I thought they were from the Holy Bible. Our Saviour told us to venerate His blessed mother and the fact the wise men saw the Theotokos & Christ child (per Matthew 2:11) & worshipped Him is the most basic premise of illusration in the blessed icons. Forgive me for being too critical but this book seems to be a sham. This is not to say there are Protesant perspectives and critical analyses of Orthodoxy that lack integrity. For ex there is an extended one from an organization founded by Billy Graham which calls for the "need" to "evangelize" the Orthodox but does not denigrate the historical truth of the apostolic churches http://www.lausanne.org/pattaya-1980/lop-19.html So there are points of debate of varying quality obviously. Just my 2 cents from a general layperson.



It is a sham, but alot of people won't know that. Morey's crew may translate his book into Russian, Arabic, Greek, Serbian.......ect. Some protestant missionaries overseas will try to use it to convert Our people. They will use it to keep American seekers to Orthodoxy away from the Truth.


Let me share with you what has been shared with me. I know Origen was condemned as a heretic in the 6th century.....but he spoke  something very true when he said:

Quote
quote:
"Today, under the pretext of knowledge (gnosis -> he is talking about Gnosticism), heretics rise against the Church of Christ. They pile on their books of commentaries. They claim to interpret the gospel and apostolic texts. If we are silent and do not oppose them with true teaching, famished souls will be fed with their abominations."
Origen



The Protestants on this board may hate what I am about to say, but there is a stream of gnostic DNA in modern Protestant America. I saw this myself when I was a Protestant. In reading the early Fathers I have found out that my view of water Baptism was gnostic. Thus I was a neognostic. Now when I saw that.....I could of done one of two things. I could of denounced the fathers as being wrong and unbiblical......or I could of humbled myself and submited to the truth that I was wrong. Submitted to the truth that my group was wrong. The same is true for alot of American Protestants. The individualism of American Protestantism tends to blind. It tends to make the individual the standard of truth.

Everything gets warped/twisted when the individual is the standard of right and wrong. Now they won't admit that.....until their eyes are openned to see it. But everything is twisted.....from scripture to history......and it will continue to be so until one humbles themself and submits to the Ark. The Church.





I will try to deal with Billy Graham's organization after my Orthodox Phronema develops more.


And that may be years from now.




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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #151 on: October 25, 2008, 05:04:49 AM »

As far as I am aware I have never heard of Robert Morey, and I have certainly not read his book. Like others on this forum, I certainly recommend Robert Letham’s “Through western Eyes”. Both the material in it and the style in which it is written draw the reader in and inform him. Robert Morey may or may not be quite wrong in his perceptions (as I say, I haven’t read him), but let me make a few hopefully relevant comments nonetheless.

It is extremely difficult for us outsiders to Orthodoxy to discover what you really believe and practise. You may have read the book about the small American denomination which wanted to convert en masse to Orthodoxy, and how hard they found it even to get an interview, let alone be accepted.

I read Michael Harper’s book “The true Light” and wrote to his centre. I got no reply.

Several times I phoned the Orthodox bookshop here in Britain, and only got the answer-machine.

I asked a friend in Dallas to order some of Thomas Hopko’s writings and bring them to England for me when he came. Nothing ever arrived for him to bring.

I went (as I wrote in a previous posting) to the shop at Preveli monastery, and all they had to offer me was Peter Botsis: no Athanasius, no Chrysostom, not even Timothy Kallistos Ware – just Botsis. Now some of your postings tell me very definitely that you do not appreciate Ian Paisley: surely Peter Botsis is in some ways his Orthodox opposite number?

I had coffee with an Orthodox priest at a café, and he was kind enough to answer all my questions about names and words (for something I was writing). I liked him, and hope to take coffee with him again. But I could not get him to open up about spiritual things.

Only Timothy Kallistos Ware is easily available, providing people are aware of his writings.

The Orthodox Church does seem to have set itself up like an impenetrable fortress; at least, that is the perception I have developed – though some on this forum are more accessible and open, which is good and heartening. But what I am saying is, if we outsiders, including this Robert Morey, hold (and less excusably, purvey) distorted images of your belief and practice, to some extent it must be admitted that it is a situation you have yourselves brought about.

I hope my intention to write pacifically has been successful. I am attempting to be explanatory, not polemical.


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« Reply #152 on: October 25, 2008, 03:21:31 PM »

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The Orthodox Church does seem to have set itself up like an impenetrable fortress

I'm sorry that this has been your experience. For me, it's been the opposite, living here in the United States.
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« Reply #153 on: October 25, 2008, 04:08:23 PM »

As far as I am aware I have never heard of Robert Morey, and I have certainly not read his book. Like others on this forum, I certainly recommend Robert Letham’s “Through western Eyes”. Both the material in it and the style in which it is written draw the reader in and inform him. Robert Morey may or may not be quite wrong in his perceptions (as I say, I haven’t read him), but let me make a few hopefully relevant comments nonetheless.

It is extremely difficult for us outsiders to Orthodoxy to discover what you really believe and practise. You may have read the book about the small American denomination which wanted to convert en masse to Orthodoxy, and how hard they found it even to get an interview, let alone be accepted.

I read Michael Harper’s book “The true Light” and wrote to his centre. I got no reply.

Several times I phoned the Orthodox bookshop here in Britain, and only got the answer-machine.

I asked a friend in Dallas to order some of Thomas Hopko’s writings and bring them to England for me when he came. Nothing ever arrived for him to bring.

I went (as I wrote in a previous posting) to the shop at Preveli monastery, and all they had to offer me was Peter Botsis: no Athanasius, no Chrysostom, not even Timothy Kallistos Ware – just Botsis. Now some of your postings tell me very definitely that you do not appreciate Ian Paisley: surely Peter Botsis is in some ways his Orthodox opposite number?

I had coffee with an Orthodox priest at a café, and he was kind enough to answer all my questions about names and words (for something I was writing). I liked him, and hope to take coffee with him again. But I could not get him to open up about spiritual things.

Only Timothy Kallistos Ware is easily available, providing people are aware of his writings.

The Orthodox Church does seem to have set itself up like an impenetrable fortress; at least, that is the perception I have developed – though some on this forum are more accessible and open, which is good and heartening. But what I am saying is, if we outsiders, including this Robert Morey, hold (and less excusably, purvey) distorted images of your belief and practice, to some extent it must be admitted that it is a situation you have yourselves brought about.

I hope my intention to write pacifically has been successful. I am attempting to be explanatory, not polemical.




That really is too bad. 

There is a British Orthodox Church:

http://www.britishorthodox.org/

I understand they are good at outreach.  However, they are Oriental Orthodox, which is my communion.  (We have three councils, instead of seven.   Smiley )

I would imagine there would be more of an Eastern Orthodox presence there, especially with Bishop Ware being there. 

Doesn't anybody else on this board know of any EO organizations like the British Orthodox Church?

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