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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Patriarchs  (Read 2938 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 17, 2008, 05:23:30 PM »

In your view, what is the function of an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch? How does this differ from Eastern Catholic Patriarchs?
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 05:49:58 PM »

A patrich is the father of his church and leader of his flock no matter where they are geographically dispersed.  A patriarch is also the primate or head of their own synod.  All patriarchs share the same apostolic power, i.e. there is nothing of theological distinction between one patriarch or another; though in terms of overall governance there can be a system of grading.  Patriarchs are elected and confirmed by their own church.  No patriarch has jurisdictional authority in another's church.

For some of the practical limitations of EC Patriarchs I would suggest the following:

http://www.mari.org/JMS/january01/The_Role_Of_The_Patriarch.htm
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_20_x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html

On the second link search for "H.B. Grégoire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria" on the page.

The differences are numerous.
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« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 05:28:15 PM »

A patrich is the father of his church and leader of his flock no matter where they are geographically dispersed.  A patriarch is also the primate or head of their own synod.  All patriarchs share the same apostolic power, i.e. there is nothing of theological distinction between one patriarch or another; though in terms of overall governance there can be a system of grading.  Patriarchs are elected and confirmed by their own church.  No patriarch has jurisdictional authority in another's church.

For some of the practical limitations of EC Patriarchs I would suggest the following:

http://www.mari.org/JMS/january01/The_Role_Of_The_Patriarch.htm
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_20_x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html

On the second link search for "H.B. Grégoire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria" on the page.

The differences are numerous.

What are EC patriarchs? One big difference with Eastern Rite Catholic "patriarchs" is that their election is approved by the pope
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 06:30:30 PM »

What are EC patriarchs? One big difference with Eastern Rite Catholic "patriarchs" is that their election is approved by the pope

In correct.  Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope.  Major Archbishops are elected by their own synod and then await confirmation by Rome before enthronement.

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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 07:59:54 PM »

What are EC patriarchs? One big difference with Eastern Rite Catholic "patriarchs" is that their election is approved by the pope

In correct.  Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope.  Major Archbishops are elected by their own synod and then await confirmation by Rome before enthronement.



My point was that the pope is involved in the acceptance of eparchs, bishops, major archbishops, etc. And any change in jurisdiction, e.g., an eparchy changing its boundaries, also has to be consented to by Rome. I'm a daily reader of the Vatican Information Service,and the Bolletino very often includes language to the effect that the pope is assenting to an action of an Eastern Rite synod.

No parallel exists in Orthodoxy. In fact, my jurisdiction's autocephaly has not been accepted by the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the only negative affect of that is that His Beatitude the Metropolitan doesn't wear his full insignia when he's in Instanbul. A situation like that would be unthinkable in the Eastern Catholic world.
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope. 
Let's say he doesn't make such a request, would he still be recognized by Rome? What if he were to request communion with Orthodoxy instead?
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 08:28:11 PM »

Define "recognized". Whereas the Orthodox feel that apostolic succession is reliant upon Orthodox faith, the Catholic Church does not feel that this is so. This is why the Catholic Church recognizes the apostolic succession of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East as valid. It also recognized the apostolic succession of the Church of England as valid until Cranmer's Edwardine Ordinals altered the nature of their sacrament of ordination.

The Catholic Church would recognize that the Patriarch in question had valid apostolic succession and so was a "genuine" Patriarch. Obviously if the Patriarch sought communion with the Eastern Orthodox and not with the Catholic Church, the Church would not "recognize" it in the sense of being in communion with it.
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 08:32:55 PM »

What if the Patriarch simply refrains from formally requesting communion with Rome, does that mean he loses the communion with Rome that he had previosuly, when he was serving under the preceding patriarch, who had made such a request?
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 08:34:49 PM »

I believe that what happens is that the Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests the pallium from Rome, and the Pope grants it to him. This is the custom for all Catholic Bishops when occupying a new see. In order for an individual to be recognized as the Catholic Bishop of a given see, Rome must grant that Bishop the Pallium for that see.
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 09:51:31 PM »

I believe that what happens is that the Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests the pallium from Rome, and the Pope grants it to him. This is the custom for all Catholic Bishops when occupying a new see. In order for an individual to be recognized as the Catholic Bishop of a given see, Rome must grant that Bishop the Pallium for that see.

Incorrect on both counts.  Eastern Catholic Patriarchs and Major Archbishops do not request the pallium.  Some do receive and wear one but it is a tradition not a canonical mandate like it is for Latin Catholic Metropolitans who must request and be invested with it before assuming their Metropolitan duties.  Latin Catholic Bishops do not receive the pallium, it is the exclusive vestment of the Pope, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and Metropolitan Archbishops.  The only non-Metropolitan that now receives it is the Cardinal Bishop of Ostia and that by recent tradition not by canon.
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2011, 05:55:34 PM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope.  
Let's say he doesn't make such a request, would he still be recognized by Rome? What if he were to request communion with Orthodoxy instead?

You mean if the Major Archbishop of Lvov, for example were to drop his submission to Rome and ask for his church to be recognized as Orthodox? They probably would be. The Carpatho-Rusyn church did that in the late 30s. Many Eastern Catholics have made the switch. The most senior archbishop in the OCA (after the Metropolitan) is a former Eastern Catholic priest.

U-words removed - Michał Kalina.
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2011, 06:12:00 PM »

I believe that what happens is that the Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests the pallium from Rome, and the Pope grants it to him. This is the custom for all Catholic Bishops when occupying a new see. In order for an individual to be recognized as the Catholic Bishop of a given see, Rome must grant that Bishop the Pallium for that see.

Incorrect on both counts.  Eastern Catholic Patriarchs and Major Archbishops do not request the pallium.  Some do receive and wear one but it is a tradition not a canonical mandate like it is for Latin Catholic Metropolitans who must request and be invested with it before assuming their Metropolitan duties.  Latin Catholic Bishops do not receive the pallium, it is the exclusive vestment of the Pope, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and Metropolitan Archbishops.  The only non-Metropolitan that now receives it is the Cardinal Bishop of Ostia and that by recent tradition not by canon.

The pallium is not part of the vestments of an Eastern bishop. But I refer you to Titulus IV, Canons 56 and 57 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Church for the relationship between patriarchs and the "supreme authority of the church," which is elsewhere clearly defined as the Roman pontiff. So pallium or synodal approbation aside, the patriarchs hold their dignity at the pleasure of the "supreme authority" of the church.

If you have any other doubts as to papal authority vis-a-vis the Eastern Rite churches, I'll refer you to Titulus III, which says, among other things, that "there is no appeal from the decisions of the supreme pontiff." This reads the same in both Western and Eastern canons. In other words, the pope's magisterium, complete with infallibility doctrine, extends fully to all churches under submission to the See of Rome.
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« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 07:05:40 PM »

I believe that what happens is that the Eastern Catholic Patriarch requests the pallium from Rome, and the Pope grants it to him. This is the custom for all Catholic Bishops when occupying a new see. In order for an individual to be recognized as the Catholic Bishop of a given see, Rome must grant that Bishop the Pallium for that see.

Incorrect on both counts.  Eastern Catholic Patriarchs and Major Archbishops do not request the pallium.  Some do receive and wear one but it is a tradition not a canonical mandate like it is for Latin Catholic Metropolitans who must request and be invested with it before assuming their Metropolitan duties.  Latin Catholic Bishops do not receive the pallium, it is the exclusive vestment of the Pope, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, and Metropolitan Archbishops.  The only non-Metropolitan that now receives it is the Cardinal Bishop of Ostia and that by recent tradition not by canon.

Sorry yea I meant Metropolitans, was low on sleep and sloppy. Didn't know about the east.
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2011, 07:39:35 PM »

What are EC patriarchs? One big difference with Eastern Rite Catholic "patriarchs" is that their election is approved by the pope

In correct.  Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope.  Major Archbishops are elected by their own synod and then await confirmation by Rome before enthronement.


The Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches is explicit - Eastern Catholic Patriarchs are inferior to the Pope.

They are Primates of Churches which are merely autonomous.

Only the Church of Rome holds the status of an autocephalous Church.

http://www.intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2011, 11:12:32 PM »

Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.

 
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2011, 12:48:07 AM »

Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.

 

Some not so savvy readers might conclude from the canon you have quoted that your claim of equality for the Pope and the Patriarchs is real.  It isn't.

No Eastern Catholic Patriarch presides over any Church with a higher ecclesiastical status than autonomous.

The Church of Rome is the only autocephalous Church in the Catholic Church.  The Pope is not equal to the Patriarchs.  He is their boss and superior.

This is clearly stated in the Canon Law of the Eastern Churches
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office
(munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the
Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the
college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire
Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he
enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in
the Church which he can always freely exercise.

Canon 45

1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only
has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of
ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by
which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops
possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the
office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always
united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire
Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the
Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of
exercising this function.

3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

...and several other canons which repeat the superiority of the Pope over the Patriarchs.

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2011, 12:57:52 AM »

Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.

 

Some not so savvy readers might conclude from the canon you have quoted that your claim of equality for the Pope and the Patriarchs is real.  It isn't.

No Eastern Catholic Patriarch presides over any Church with a higher ecclesiastical status than autonomous.

The Church of Rome is the only autocephalous Church in the Catholic Church.  The Pope is not equal to the Patriarchs.  He is their boss and superior.

This is clearly stated in the Canon Law of the Eastern Churches
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office
(munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the
Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the
college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire
Church on earth; therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he
enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in
the Church which he can always freely exercise.

Canon 45

1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only
has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of
ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by
which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops
possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the
office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always
united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire
Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the
Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of
exercising this function.

3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.

...and several other canons which repeat the superiority of the Pope over the Patriarchs.

Once, what is this "request ecclesiastical communion?"  Among the Orthodox, a new Patriarch sends an encyclical with his Orthodox profession of Faith, and communion is not even established, just automatically confirmed.
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2011, 07:12:32 PM »

Some not so savvy readers might conclude from the canon you have quoted that your claim of equality for the Pope and the Patriarchs is real.  It isn't.

Fr. Ambrose,

Where did I claim this?  Please do no put words in my mouth.  It was stated that Eastern Catholic Patriarchs must be approved by the Pope, which is incorrect.  They are elected and enthroned without any reference to the Pope.    I stated this is and provided the relevant canons. 

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2011, 07:59:40 PM »

Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.

 


I refer you back to Title IV, canons 56 and 57. There, the inferiority of the Eastern Rite patriarchs is made quite explicit. If you then refer to Title III, it is clear what is meant by the "supreme authority of the church" referred to in Title IV. It is the "Supreme Pontiff," from whose decisions no appeal is allowed. As far as this discussion goes those canons pretty much clarify the vertical order of authority, as well as the fact that the Eastern or Byzantine Rite Catholic churches are not merely in communion with Rome. Ultimately, the pope rules them just as surely as he does the Latin church. The letters or requests, or however the process is carried out may soften that fact somewhat, as has the fact that the popes of the past century or so have mainly been tactful and respectful men. But it does not obscure or negate the simple import of the canons, viz., that the patriarchs of the Eastern Rite jurisdictions in fact hold their power from the pope.
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2011, 10:21:24 PM »


I refer you back to Title IV, canons 56 and 57. There, the inferiority of the Eastern Rite patriarchs is made quite explicit.


Yes indeed.

I am now quite confused as to the purpose for which Deacon Lance quoted the canons that he did.  I assumed it was to show us that the Patriarchs are not subordinate to the Pope but now, after his second message, I have no idea what he was trying to tell us.
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2011, 02:05:13 AM »


I refer you back to Title IV, canons 56 and 57. There, the inferiority of the Eastern Rite patriarchs is made quite explicit.


Yes indeed.

I am now quite confused as to the purpose for which Deacon Lance quoted the canons that he did.  I assumed it was to show us that the Patriarchs are not subordinate to the Pope but now, after his second message, I have no idea what he was trying to tell us.
Did you not read his last post? Oh, wait... You probably did but ignored it.
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2011, 04:23:02 AM »

Some not so savvy readers might conclude from the canon you have quoted that your claim of equality for the Pope and the Patriarchs is real.  It isn't.

Fr. Ambrose,

Where did I claim this?  Please do no put words in my mouth.  It was stated that Eastern Catholic Patriarchs must be approved by the Pope, which is incorrect.  They are elected and enthroned without any reference to the Pope.    I stated this is and provided the relevant canons. 

Fr. Deacon Lance
These canons?
Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.
No mention of the supreme pontiff in the "approved formulas?" Although "the other Eastern Churches" make no claim to the power to approve, depose, void etc. the election, consecration or enthronement of any other patriarch, the "Roman Pontiff" does.
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2011, 01:38:09 PM »

Some not so savvy readers might conclude from the canon you have quoted that your claim of equality for the Pope and the Patriarchs is real.  It isn't.

Fr. Ambrose,

Where did I claim this?  Please do no put words in my mouth.  It was stated that Eastern Catholic Patriarchs must be approved by the Pope, which is incorrect.  They are elected and enthroned without any reference to the Pope.    I stated this is and provided the relevant canons. 

Fr. Deacon Lance
These canons?
Canon 75

If the one who is elected accepted and is an ordained bishop, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church proceeds with his proclamation and enthronement as patriarch according to the prescriptions of the liturgical books; if the one who is elected is not yet an ordained bishop, the enthronement cannot be performed validly before the one who is elected receives episcopal ordination.

Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible
about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise
to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.

2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.
No mention of the supreme pontiff in the "approved formulas?" Although "the other Eastern Churches" make no claim to the power to approve, depose, void etc. the election, consecration or enthronement of any other patriarch, the "Roman Pontiff" does.

Please look at the Canons for the Eastern Church, Title III and Title IV. You can find the code in a number of places. The original Latin is on the Vatican Web site (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19901018_index-codex-can-eccl-orient_lt.html).

The code has to be taken as a whole, not in bits and pieces. Consider the sections mentioned, which deal with the supreme authority of the church and the relation of patriarchs to that authority.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 02:39:32 AM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope. 
a) What if the Pope denies communion?
b) What if he does not make that request?
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2012, 09:11:37 PM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope. 
a) What if the Pope denies communion?
b) What if he does not make that request?

Likewise, what if one Orthodox patriarch denied communion with respect to another patriarch?
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2012, 10:10:50 PM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope. 
a) What if the Pope denies communion?
b) What if he does not make that request?

Likewise, what if one Orthodox patriarch denied communion with respect to another patriarch?

Pan-Orthodox council is gathered to solve it (vide Bulgarian Alternative Synod's case).
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2012, 11:46:25 AM »

Eastern Catholic patriarchs are elected and enthroned by their own synod.  The patriarch then requests communion with the Pope. 
a) What if the Pope denies communion?
b) What if he does not make that request?

Likewise, what if one Orthodox patriarch denied communion with respect to another patriarch?

Pan-Orthodox council is gathered to solve it (vide Bulgarian Alternative Synod's case).

Not necessarily; to the best of my knowledge no such efforts are being undertaken in the Romanian/Jerusalem dispute.
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