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Author Topic: Can one study Eastern Catholicism in Isolation from Eastern Orthodoxy?  (Read 3922 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Melkite
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« on: January 15, 2008, 04:47:31 AM »

Split from:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.1035.html

-- Friul


I have just looked at the EC Forum - and I have to say I was stunned by the lack of activity overnight.

How long will they continue to let it suffer ?

I can't see the idea of a book study working  Sad 

The book club is the prime example of the cheerleading to which I alluded. Not that I don't think it would be a worthwhile venture for the majority of the present population there to read all of the referenced texts (and then some), but I don't see it happening, nor do I see it solving the underlying issue of a lack of full understanding of the East. I think it's fair to say that Archbishop Joseph (Raya) would be among the first to ask where the relevant Orthodox texts are in that list, the works of Bishop Kallistos (Ware), of Pelikan, and many others.

Many years,

Neil
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 10:21:04 AM by Friul » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 12:33:42 PM »

The book club is the prime example of the cheerleading to which I alluded. Not that I don't think it would be a worthwhile venture for the majority of the present population there to read all of the referenced texts (and then some), but I don't see it happening, nor do I see it solving the underlying issue of a lack of full understanding of the East. I think it's fair to say that Archbishop Joseph (Raya) would be among the first to ask where the relevant Orthodox texts are in that list, the works of Bishop Kallistos (Ware), of Pelikan, and many others.

Many years,

Neil

Frankly apart from Diak, there's no one there who could possibly help with a book study  Roll Eyes

Neil - as you say - where are the good texts from the Orthodox side - though of course I doubt if those could be used , bearing in mind it is , as we have been reminded time and again - it's an Eastern Catholic Forum .
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 05:33:43 PM »

I think it's fair to say that Archbishop Joseph (Raya) would be among the first to ask where the relevant Orthodox texts are in that list, the works of Bishop Kallistos (Ware), of Pelikan, and many others.

The book club is to study Eastern Catholicism, not Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 06:05:29 PM »

Yes - BUT


So much of Eastern  Catholicism is IN Orthodoxy - you cannot study Eastern Catholicism in isolation.

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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2008, 08:11:11 PM »

Quote
The book club is to study Eastern Catholicism, not Eastern Orthodoxy.

 Roll Eyes
You really need to read more books written by Eastern Catholics. Who do you think their resources are? I mean, duh, papist. Get you facts straight.

Let me spell this out for you. Eastern Catholics use Eastern Orthodox books, articles and authors alomst entirely for thier resources. An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study. Check your resources.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2008, 09:24:06 PM »

An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study

guess I'm in deep cow patties... Tongue do I need to confess this to a priest ? Are those Jesuit's going to try a home invasion  police ?

I'll put them in tupperware and bury them in the back yard... Wink

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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 02:05:03 AM »

An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study

guess I'm in deep cow patties... Tongue do I need to confess this to a priest ? Are those Jesuit's going to try a home invasion  police ?

I'll put them in tupperware and bury them in the back yard... Wink



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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 09:19:15 AM »

Roll Eyes
You really need to read more books written by Eastern Catholics. Who do you think their resources are? I mean, duh, papist. Get your facts straight.

Let me spell this out for you. Eastern Catholics use Eastern Orthodox books, articles and authors alomst entirely for thier resources. An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study. Check your resources.  Wink
Yes. When I entered the Eastern Catholic Church I began reading all things Eastern I could get my hands on. Ninety percent of everything that was recommended for me was from Orthodox sources. It led to my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

Oh the irony!  laugh
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 01:19:33 PM »

It is extremely ironic to watch the logic progress over there at CAF (and blowing over this way as well). We see that now some are advocating the study of “Eastern Catholic…but NOT Orthodox books, thereby schisming the ideas and spirituality of Eastern Christianity where there was none before. Some seem to be attempting to remove Eastern Catholic thought from it’s context…separate but equal? What are these people afraid of?

Actually, it’s impossible.

All important examples of Eastern Catholic scholarship will have copious footnotes or references, and these will very often (if not usually) be Orthodox sources (as has been pointed out already).

To borrow an analogy from Frank Sheed, it can be like examining an eye without the context of a face. One might even say it is like studying a tooth outside of the context of an entire jaw.

What of  Father George Mahoney, or Father Lev Gillet? Do they count or are they Personae Non Gratae? And what of Father John Mack, do the writings from his ‘Orthodox period’ count?


Michael
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 02:51:13 PM »

Roll Eyes
Let me spell this out for you. Eastern Catholics use Eastern Orthodox books, articles and authors alomst entirely for thier resources. An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study.
And this is NOT a good thing.
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2008, 04:42:34 PM »

Let me spell this out for you. Eastern Catholics use Eastern Orthodox books, articles and authors alomst entirely for their resources. An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study. Check your resources.  Wink
And this is NOT a good thing.
It is as it has always been.  Smiley

You cannot change it, no matter how disappointing that may be to you. You are basically passing judgment on the way it has always been for the church of your ancestors.

We're coming into this a bit too late, neither you nor I can rewrite the history of your church or your people just because we might not like it.

Michael  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2008, 05:26:25 PM »

Hear hear Michael.

We come from the same root . The division was a terrible thing - one day it will be healed.
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2008, 09:21:30 PM »

Roll Eyes
You really need to read more books written by Eastern Catholics. Who do you think their resources are? I mean, duh, papist. Get you facts straight.

Let me spell this out for you. Eastern Catholics use Eastern Orthodox books, articles and authors alomst entirely for thier resources. An Eastern Catholic book study is an Eastern Orthodox book study. Check your resources.  Wink

conversely Orthodox use plenty of things printed by those under Rome (the Melkite liturgical books are far superior than most of the Orthodox ones in Arabic).
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2008, 10:35:10 PM »

Many Orthodox Churches use the Epistle from the Byzantine Catholic Seminary Press.   In the Rusyn tradition, everyday can have a different dismissal, and there is a book for that, it comes from the Byzantine Catholic Seminary Press.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 02:39:51 AM »

The truth is that we of the East are one people, separated by circumstance, but with much to offer one another. That either should be deprived of the good, the spiritually enrichment, the wisdom, the beauty that can be had from the other is more than a tragedy, it is a sin. It only deepen the wounds and further delay, if not outright prevent their healing.
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 02:11:48 PM »

The truth is that we of the East are one people, separated by circumstance, but with much to offer one another. That either should be deprived of the good, the spiritually enrichment, the wisdom, the beauty that can be had from the other is more than a tragedy, it is a sin. It only deepen the wounds and further delay, if not outright prevent their healing.
There are many Eastern Orthodox who don't even believe that you have valid sacraments, priesthood, etc. I think its the west whom you are more akin to in this matter, as much as that pains you.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 07:11:33 PM »

Papist,

The experience of the Melkite Greek Catholics and The Antiochian Orthodox is exactly the opposite of what you have said. We are very close in places.

I HATE to break it to you, but there are many places where Melkites and Antiochians receive communion in each others churches. In fact, the Antiochians and Melkites built a church together, with both Patriarchs blessing and dedicating the Church together in a country where thier are quite a few Melkites and Antiochians. It was not a necessity, but an ecumenical activity. While they don' concelebrate thier, they both make use of the Church.  Wink
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2008, 07:48:19 PM »

There are many Eastern Orthodox who don't even believe that you have valid sacraments, priesthood, etc. I think its the west whom you are more akin to in this matter, as much as that pains you.
I disagree.

Melkites certainly know the precarious situation they occupy in the great scheme of Apostolic Christianity, and I do not think my brother Neil needs a reminder of that from anyone. Nevertheless, it does not follow that Melkites are more akin to the west than the east (wishful thinking perhaps?), your argument would have to be a lot more cogent and logical to establish that.

First, though there may be individual Orthodox who personally do not believe Melkites have a valid priesthood, it is not their place to judge these matters. In fact that is not the official stance of the church. Orthodox certainly see all Catholics as Christians, regardless of the fact that many are not in communion with us. The church is not in the business of pronouncing judgment upon other Christian bodies nor their sacraments, and neither expects nor seeks decrees of validation upon itself from outside.

Holy Orthodoxy routinely accords Roman Catholic hierachs respect, and neither endorses Roman Catholic orders nor condemns Roman Catholic orders. They are outside of the church, and are of no use to Orthodox.

Although it is not a formal practice, it is known that Melkite Catholics in Syria very often are communed in Melkite Orthodox churches as a matter of economia.  I don't know if Syrian Latin-rite Catholics are accorded this same privilige. The special conditions there, as Christian minorities of a common sort, make it necessary.  Many families, even whole towns, are mixed and often only one temple is allowed to be erected in a community. I know of at least one case of a temple being built specifically for use by both the Melkite Catholics and the Melkite (Antiochian) Orthodox, for separate liturgies and altars.

Because of it's more extensive network of parishes in North America, many Melkite Catholic immigrants from Syria and Lebanon worship in Antiochian Orthodox parishes, raising their children as Orthodox.

The reason, actually the only significant reason, Melkites are not in formal Communion and concelebration with Holy Orthodoxy is because the Melkites are in Communion with Rome. The issues in play are the errors Rome teaches, and RC attempts to assert those errors upon others. By sharing communion with the bishop of Rome and other bishops under Rome who teach these errors (out of charity no doubt, in the sense of love), the Melkite Catholics are formally cut off from the larger communion of Holy Orthodoxy.

I view this as a terrible sacrifice on their part.

In their efforts to keep the pipeline between east and west open for Rome the Melkites pay a very high price indeed, and I believe they know it. I do not think that fact is appreciated enough by most Latin Catholics nor latinized Eastern Catholics. To put it mildly it is a thankless position for them to be in.

Michael
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 10:56:40 PM »

Interesting thread. (Not sure why I didn't read it 4.5 years ago. I know I read the thread that this one split off from.)
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