OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 06:14:37 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: ROCOR and OCA  (Read 2071 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« on: January 16, 2008, 11:55:37 AM »

Since ROCOR is once more a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow, and OCA is in communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, does it follow that OCA and ROCOR are now officially in communion with eachother?
Logged
The Iambic Pen
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic - Church of Old Rome
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 123



« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 01:17:22 PM »

Why were they not in communion with each other before?
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 01:27:35 PM »

Why were they not in communion with each other before?
Perhaps a better description would be "strained relations".

However, I did find this on the website orthodoxwiki:

With the reconciliation of the ROCOR with the Moscow Patriarchate in 2007, the ROCOR and the OCA have resumed full communion and clergy of both jurisdictions have concelebrated in multiple areas;
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 04:27:56 PM »

Nevermind this post.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 04:29:45 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
Hesychios
perpetual neophyte
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 171


« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 06:24:27 PM »

The issues between the churches prevented concelebration in the past, which is essentially lack of communion at the clergy level. The laity typically could intercommune, provided they were properly prepared.

The story of the two churches has probably been covered here quite a bit, so I will not elaborate, but has to do with the complex relationship between the Russian synod of bishops in exile (and the flocks of Russian emigres they pastored) and the previously established dioceses of the Russian Metropolia in North America, which was not actually established by recent exiles but as missions from the pre-revolutionary Russian church.

The two groups have had a see-saw relationship for decades...at times closer than others. Naturally, they mixed it up quite a bit at times and for one reason or another parishes and monasteries switched affiliation.

Recent Russian immigrants sometimes joined OCA parishes, and established OCA parishes occasionally sided with the Church Abroad (ROCOR). There was a third group of Russian parishes that objected to being part of the OCA when that was granted autocephaly, preferring a closer tie to the MP. I have to wonder whether it will merge with ROCOR now.  Huh

A milestone was passed in December, to quote an OCA website:
On Sunday, December 9th, Bishop Peter of Cleveland (ROCOR) celebrated Hierarchical Divine Liturgy at Ss. Peter & Paul Church (OCA) in Manville, New Jersey. This joyous and historic celebration manifested the new-found unity of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Orthodox Church in America, made possible by the re-unification of the Russian Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate.

This was the first time a hierarch of the ROCOR has served the Divine Liturgy in an OCA parish since the granting of Autocephaly to the Russian Metropolia in 1970. Records might indicate that there has been no such celebration since the time of the Cleveland Sobor of 1946.

Archpriest David Straut and his parishioners of St. Elizabeth Russian Orthodox Church in nearby Rocky Hill, united with Archpriest James Parsells and his flock for this historic celebration. With the blessing of Metropolitan Herman, Bishop Peter elevated Deacon Paul Sokol of Ss. Peter & Paul Church to the rank of Protodeacon. A festal meal and fellowship was held in the Parish Center after the divine service.

His Grace, Bishop Peter expressed his hope that this celebration would be the beginning of further expressions of liturgical and canonical unity of our churches here in America. A blessed day.

Thanks be to God!


That...I think, sums it up pretty well.
Logged

"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living"
Jaroslav Pelikan
EmperorConstantine
Acolyte and Pizza-Maker
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 51


St. Constantine the Great


« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 02:59:43 AM »

Since ROCOR is once more a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow, and OCA is in communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow, does it follow that OCA and ROCOR are now officially in communion with eachother?
Yes.

ROCOR, as of the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion, is in Communion with the Orthodox World.

Quote
I have to wonder whether it will merge with ROCOR now.
If things keep going as they are in Syosset, there could very well be a merge. Cry
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 03:42:44 AM »

ROCOR, as of the signing of the Act of Canonical Communion, is in Communion with the Orthodox World.
If things keep going as they are in Syosset, there could very well be a merge. Cry
*
I read somewhere that some of the traditional OCA faithful are heading into the Russian Church Abroad and others are going to the Antiochian Archdiocese.  Is there any truth in this?  Is there any such movement going on?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,683


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 04:04:18 AM »

*
I read somewhere that some of the traditional OCA faithful are heading into the Russian Church Abroad and others are going to the Antiochian Archdiocese.  Is there any truth in this?  Is there any such movement going on?
With the financial scandal currently rocking the OCA (see Midwest Votes No Confidence in Metropolitian Herman and Archbishop Job Annnounces Plans to Retire for the latest OCnet commentary on this), I'm not the least bit surprised that such a movement may be afoot.  I don't necessarily support the idea of OCA faithful leaving the OCA (my home jurisdiction) over this, but I would be a blind fool to not acknowledge that something is dreadfully wrong within her hierarchy.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 04:33:08 AM »

*
I read somewhere that some of the traditional OCA faithful are heading into the Russian Church Abroad and others are going to the Antiochian Archdiocese.  Is there any truth in this?  Is there any such movement going on?

I seriously doubt there is a "movement" going on, but maybe a very slow drip of some individuals.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 05:32:25 AM »

Hesychios,

Btw, your post is a re-post.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12298.msg195760.html#msg195760

Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 10:35:34 AM »

*
I read somewhere that some of the traditional OCA faithful are heading into the Russian Church Abroad and others are going to the Antiochian Archdiocese.  Is there any truth in this?  Is there any such movement going on?

I'm not sure if there is a massive exodus or anything, but at the parish I attend, there are a lot of new faces from OCA parishes every week, and the monthly English liturgy is getting drawing in more and more.  In particular, I have noticed a lot of Russians who were OCA and now attending our ROCA parish.  Most cite a boatload of reasons for switching, and based on my own experiences at some, I cannot blame them.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Hesychios
perpetual neophyte
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 171


« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 10:56:34 AM »

Thanks, I did not see that before.

Michael
Logged

"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living"
Jaroslav Pelikan
Hesychios
perpetual neophyte
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 171


« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 11:03:58 AM »

With the financial scandal currently rocking the OCA (see Midwest Votes No Confidence in Metropolitian Herman and Archbishop Job Annnounces Plans to Retire for the latest OCnet commentary on this), I'm not the least bit surprised that such a movement may be afoot.  I don't necessarily support the idea of OCA faithful leaving the OCA (my home jurisdiction) over this, but I would be a blind fool to not acknowledge that something is dreadfully wrong within her hierarchy.
I wonder what may happen if there is serious interest in a corporate merger?

The matter of Autocephaly would need to be addressed.
Logged

"Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living"
Jaroslav Pelikan
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 06:35:27 PM »

I wonder what may happen if there is serious interest in a corporate merger?

The matter of Autocephaly would need to be addressed.
*
Given the revelations coming out about the OCA higher echelons (e.g., monk James Silver's message this week on the personal life of five or six OCA hierarchs) I would think that the ROCA bishops would be jittery about any merger.

Logged
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 07:20:32 PM »

I wonder what may happen if there is serious interest in a corporate merger?

The matter of Autocephaly would need to be addressed.

I tend to doubt this.  The ROCOR is now just what its name applies, it is the representation of the Moscow Patriarchate outside the borders of the Russian Federation and Ukraine.  It is not a North American Church.  What could happen is the MP parishes that still exist in the U.S. will merge with the ROCOR.

The express purpose of the OCA is to be the Orthodox Church in America.  When they give up on that, they might as well cease to exist.  The OCA is also not completely Russian in composition anyway.  In a breakup scenario you would likely have some go to the Antiochians (the more Americanized, convert centric parishes), some of the more traditional Great Russian oriented parishes would go to the ROCOR, and the other ethnic dioceses like the Romanians, Bulgarians and Albanians would likely go to the EP or their mother patriarchates.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 09:58:39 PM »

The express purpose of the OCA is to be the Orthodox Church in America.  When they give up on that, they might as well cease to exist.  The OCA is also not completely Russian in composition anyway.  In a breakup scenario you would likely have some go to the Antiochians (the more Americanized, convert centric parishes), some of the more traditional Great Russian oriented parishes would go to the ROCOR, and the other ethnic dioceses like the Romanians, Bulgarians and Albanians would likely go to the EP or their mother patriarchates.

...which makes sense.  When my dad was up visiting a few years ago (he goes to the same former EOC Antiochian parish I grew up in), he was telling my step brother in front of me about the OCA (I had been going to an OCA parish for a few years by then) that the OCA was "the Russians".  I told him not to call the OCA that and he persisted.  So then I asked him if I can refer to the Antiochians as "the Arabs".  He started to get it.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 10:25:06 PM »

...which makes sense.  When my dad was up visiting a few years ago (he goes to the same former EOC Antiochian parish I grew up in), he was telling my step brother in front of me about the OCA (I had been going to an OCA parish for a few years by then) that the OCA was "the Russians".  I told him not to call the OCA that and he persisted.  So then I asked him if I can refer to the Antiochians as "the Arabs".  He started to get it.

More and more this is becoming problematic, because the numbers of converts versus the drain of "ethnic" nominal Orthodox is created a new dynamic.  Yes, there are converts who go ethnic, and there is always the ethnic Faithful (in contrast to the faithful ethnic core), but the fact is, a non traditional Orthodox ethnicity is not a rarity now.

My priest says the Almisry boys will complain when they grow up "we didn't understand anything, it was all in English!" (I'm Arab, their mother Romanian.  We're among the few ethnics in a parish of converts).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.074 seconds with 43 queries.