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Author Topic: Is the Pope of Rome a "Patriarch"? & possible breakup of the Latin patriarchate?  (Read 2697 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: January 13, 2008, 01:34:08 AM »

Split from:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13357.45.html

-- Friul


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Dear Krysostomos,.

How can a Catholic belong to a patriarchate when the Patriarch has abolished the title and resigned?  Pope Benedict XVI terminated himself as Patriarch soon after he was elected.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 10:47:56 AM by Friul » Logged
lubeltri
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 01:06:08 PM »

Dear Krysostomos,.

How can a Catholic belong to a patriarchate when the Patriarch has abolished the title and resigned?  Pope Benedict XVI terminated himself as Patriarch soon after he was elected.

All that for leaving out a name from a yearbook that didn't even feature the name until the later 19th century?

He did no such thing.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 09:56:09 PM »

All that for leaving out a name from a yearbook that didn't even feature the name until the later 19th century?

He did no such thing.
I don't get it!  He renounced the title of Patriarch, but you say he is Patriarch?
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 10:03:22 PM »

I don't get it!  He renounced the title of Patriarch, but you say he is Patriarch?
*
When the Pope was yet Joseph Ratzinger  he pointed out the need to disentangle the confusion between the patriarchal and primatial roles of the bishop of Rome and to break up the Latin patriarchate, replacing it with a number of ""patriarchal areas," that is, regions with an autonomy similar to that of the ancient patriarchates, but under the direction of the episcopal conferences.

In an essay entitled "Primacy and Episcopacy," Ratzinger developed the theme
at greater length:

"The image of a centralized state which the Catholic church presented right up to the council does not flow only from the Petrine office, but from its strict amalgamation with the patriarchal function which grew ever stronger in the course of history and which fell to the bishop of Rome for the whole of Latin Christendom. The uniform canon law, the uniform liturgy, the uniform appointment of bishops by the Roman centre: all these are things which are not necessarily part of the primacy but result from the close union of the two offices. For that reason, the task to consider for the future will be to distinguish again and more clearly between the proper function of the successor of Peter and the patriarchal office and, where
necessary, to create new patriarchates and to detach them from the Latin church. To embrace unity with the pope would then no longer mean being incorporated into a uniform administration, but only being inserted into a unity of faith and communion, in which the pope is acknowledged to have the power to give binding interpretations of the revelation given in Christ whose authority is accepted whenever it is given in definitive form."

After exploring the ecumenical implications of this vision, Ratzinger concluded: "Finally, in the not too distant future one could consider whether the churches of Asia and Africa, like those of the East, should not present their own forms as autonomous 'patriarchates' or 'great churches' or whatever such ecclesiae in the Ecclesia might be called in the future."

Playing the optimist, I hope that this is the beginning of a long-term plan to bring these ideas quietly into reality, without causing alarm to the "hawks" and ultramontanists in the Roman Catholic Church.

Who knows, but now the Pope is no longer Patriarch of the West we may one day see a Patriarch of Dublin.

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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 09:31:11 AM »

^ So that's his papacy of the first 1000 years. Never fly.

(Back to our regularly scheduled programming...)
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 08:40:42 PM »

I don't get it!  He renounced the title of Patriarch, but you say he is Patriarch?
*
When the Pope was yet Joseph Ratzinger  he pointed out the need to disentangle the confusion between the patriarchal and primatial roles of the bishop of Rome and to break up the Latin patriarchate, replacing it with a number of ""patriarchal areas," that is, regions with an autonomy similar to that of the ancient patriarchates, but under the direction of the episcopal conferences.

In an essay entitled "Primacy and Episcopacy," Ratzinger developed the theme
at greater length:

"The image of a centralized state which the Catholic church presented right up to the council does not flow only from the Petrine office, but from its strict amalgamation with the patriarchal function which grew ever stronger in the course of history and which fell to the bishop of Rome for the whole of Latin Christendom. The uniform canon law, the uniform liturgy, the uniform appointment of bishops by the Roman centre: all these are things which are not necessarily part of the primacy but result from the close union of the two offices. For that reason, the task to consider for the future will be to distinguish again and more clearly between the proper function of the successor of Peter and the patriarchal office and, where
necessary, to create new patriarchates and to detach them from the Latin church. To embrace unity with the pope would then no longer mean being incorporated into a uniform administration, but only being inserted into a unity of faith and communion, in which the pope is acknowledged to have the power to give binding interpretations of the revelation given in Christ whose authority is accepted whenever it is given in definitive form."

After exploring the ecumenical implications of this vision, Ratzinger concluded: "Finally, in the not too distant future one could consider whether the churches of Asia and Africa, like those of the East, should not present their own forms as autonomous 'patriarchates' or 'great churches' or whatever such ecclesiae in the Ecclesia might be called in the future."

Playing the optimist, I hope that this is the beginning of a long-term plan to bring these ideas quietly into reality, without causing alarm to the "hawks" and ultramontanists in the Roman Catholic Church.

Who knows, but now the Pope is no longer Patriarch of the West we may one day see a Patriarch of Dublin.



Funny, at church today I told a friend it's too bad Dublin never was made a Patriarchate.  Smiley

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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 11:38:59 PM »

If anything I would think that Canterbury would be elevated to Patriarchal status before Dublin...
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Krysostomos
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very eastern minded ...


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 04:06:09 PM »

Split from:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13357.45.html

-- Friul


Faith: catholic christian
Jurisdiction: Roman patriarchate
Dear Krysostomos,.

How can a Catholic belong to a patriarchate when the Patriarch has abolished the title and resigned?  Pope Benedict XVI terminated himself as Patriarch soon after he was elected.
Well...For me as a very Eastern Minded (a kind of Greek-Catholic, in fact) the Bishop Of Rome is still the Patriach of Rome and All the West and the Church of Rome is just one of the old Local Churches or Patriarchates...

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lubeltri
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 03:24:52 AM »

If anything I would think that Canterbury would be elevated to Patriarchal status before Dublin...

If only....we'd have to retrieve that venerable see from schism and heresy before we could do that.

The primate of England is now the Archbishop of Westminster.
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 12:42:49 AM »

Thats the Archbishop of Canterbury. And yes, they would have to be rescued from a heretical walk. Currently, their head is really the Monarchy of England. No true Church should have a secular government involved in it whatsoever (Hint hint, ROC).
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 01:33:46 AM »

If anything I would think that Canterbury would be elevated to Patriarchal status before Dublin...

If only....we'd have to retrieve that venerable see from schism and heresy before we could do that.

The primate of England is now the Archbishop of Westminster.
Is that English for Sourozh or Thyateira?

Since it seems that Alexandria and Jerusalem have yielded to Constantinople, the primate of England is the archbishop of Thyateira and Great Britain, who also ex officio chairs the Pan-Orthodox Assembly of Bishops with Churches in the British Isles, which includes Dublin, Canterbury and Westminster.  The only other claimant, Russia, has gone along.

The Assembly guards the Catholic Faith of Orthodox England.  Both the Archbishops of Canterbury and Westminster are mired in schism and heresy.
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