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Author Topic: Contraception: an observer's view  (Read 33119 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2008, 04:28:43 AM »

As a man, I will sadly never know the joys nor the tortures of carrying life in my womb (which I obviously do not have). What else can I say.

God-Willing, I will know the joys and tortures of being a faithful and devoted husband...

Perhaps I could indulge you in the tortures of the rack as well?

Or am I the only one freaked out by the way you worded this?
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« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2008, 10:37:59 AM »

Perhaps I could indulge you in the tortures of the rack as well?

Or am I the only one freaked out by the way you worded this?

LoL!  How did I know you were going to jump all over that statement?   laugh
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« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2008, 11:10:00 AM »

I'm glad. So many people think the Pill is like candy.

Please remember that some people who have medical womanly problems take the Pill.  It is quite a blessing for them as it REGULATES their hormones and makes life far more livable, reducing all kinds of pain and other problems that are a result of problems such as irregular hormones and things like endometriosis.
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« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2008, 11:19:44 AM »

And how does any of this relate to a doctor's competence in their field? 

For those who believe that human life begins at conception, having a doctor suggest an abortion is like asking a cop what to do about the house-guest who is a financial and emotional strain on the family and hearing him recommend that you kill him.  The officer's duty is to protect life and livelihood and property through the enforcement of the law; if he makes a suggestion in an official capacity that seems to contradict that, then it stands to reason that the hearer will question the cop's competence in the field or his sanity.

I know.... Strike that.  We all know your stance on when a fetus is really human and deserving of protection, and it happens to not be shared by the majority on the board.  I, er, we also know that you like stoking the fire as much as possible.  Leave this one alone.
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« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2008, 11:22:14 AM »

Or am I the only one freaked out by the way you worded this? 

Lol.  Not at all - I was wondering how they view pregnancy in comparison to being drawn and quartered, but I think the answer to the rack question will suffice at least in the short-term.
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« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2008, 02:20:42 PM »

As a man, I will sadly never know the joys nor the tortures of carrying life in my womb (which I obviously do not have). What else can I say.

Having the baby makes all of pain worthwhile but the pregnancy part is not a time of joy for all women. Please come down to reality before you get married. Don't romanticize life.

Quote
God-Willing, I will know the joys and tortures of being a faithful and devoted husband. I honestly can't wait to take care of my future wife's needs during pregnancy. I can't wait to rub her feet or get pillows or cook breakfast, lunch, dinner, go on walks with her, read to her, pray with her, make sure she has all the mental, physical, and emotional support she needs. But then again, I was born a sucker and I am madly in love.

During my first pregnancy my husband was working 50 hours or more a week while getting his master's degree. He often travelled to Japan on business during both of my pregnancies. I was on my own quite often during that time.  How will you have time to cater to your wife's every whim? What you wrote sounds like a fairy tale. Life is just not like that....unless you are independently wealthy and don't have to work?

Quote
I know of a woman whose pregnancy lasted for four hours, no complications and little problems before. But then, as you rightfully point out, pregnancy is debilitating for other women. I don't know what the future holds, but all I have ever wanted since I was a child was to be a Father. By God's Grace, I will be soon marrying a woman who has always wanted to be a mother. We don't have much, but we know God will direct our steps. He always has.

I am assuming you meant to write a woman's labor only lasted four hours. Yes. Some women sail through labor but others do not. I just wanted to bring some real world realism into what many men view in a romantic or unrealistic way. And remember, I was one of lucky ones because my pregnancies were healthy as were my babies. I understand your desire to be a father. Becoming a mother was my life dream too. I love being a mom. Just try to be realistic and enter into your marriage with your eyes wide open and your feet on the ground.


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« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2008, 02:47:24 PM »

Please come down to reality before you get married. Don't romanticize life. 

He called pregnancy "torture."  I don't know if you're considering that "reality" or not.  As for the rest of the post, maybe it is idyllic - but let him keep his goals intact for how to treat his wife.  If he falls short, so be it.
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« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2008, 02:55:21 PM »

He called pregnancy "torture."  I don't know if you're considering that "reality" or not.  As for the rest of the post, maybe it is idyllic - but let him keep his goals intact for how to treat his wife.  If he falls short, so be it.

I didn't notice that...I think to say he will sadly never know the torture of pregnancy is a little scary. God help them.
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« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2008, 03:22:51 PM »

I didn't notice that...I think to say he will sadly never know the torture of pregnancy is a little scary. God help them.

I'm sure it's just a misuse or misunderstanding of the language, but if it's either, at least he's already acknowledging the fact that pregnancy is hard, and that he'll never experience it firsthand.

I don't know if anyone that's posting here on OC.net, or at least no one that I've seen so far, has any sort of overly-naive view of the woman's burden in pregnancy - the sickness, hormone swings, physical burden, emotional burden, psychological struggle with living a restricted life, and of course the possible long-term after-effects.  I'm glad you're trying to "shake up" anyone that does, just be careful not to paint too bleak a picture.
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« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2008, 04:40:30 PM »

I'm sure it's just a misuse or misunderstanding of the language, but if it's either, at least he's already acknowledging the fact that pregnancy is hard, and that he'll never experience it firsthand.

I don't know if anyone that's posting here on OC.net, or at least no one that I've seen so far, has any sort of overly-naive view of the woman's burden in pregnancy - the sickness, hormone swings, physical burden, emotional burden, psychological struggle with living a restricted life, and of course the possible long-term after-effects.  I'm glad you're trying to "shake up" anyone that does, just be careful not to paint too bleak a picture.

I just wanted to bring a little reality (I left out a lot of details) into the picture because while I have heard many men suggest a priest should be a part of the family equation, I have never heard any of them mention a woman's doctor. The woman's perspective was lacking. I only was trying to provide a different viewpoint.
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« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2008, 04:49:42 PM »

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Perhaps I could indulge you in the tortures of the rack as well?
Or am I the only one freaked out by the way you worded this?

Goodness, let's back to  horse up. Perhaps I need to add indications of tongue-in-cheek humor to every post I make, but I assumed that people are able to pick up on social cues. I'm afraid I can't possibly keep up with the techno-savy. I'm at the bottom of the list.

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I have read many opinions over the last few years from young married or almost married MEN about the use of contraception in a marriage. Many of these idealists have proclaimed or vowed not use it in their marriage. But be prepared for the consequences of how multiple pregnancies will affect the long-term health of your future wife. I have many friends who followed this path and I admire their large families. But most, if not all of these mothers in these families (age range mid 40s) have long-term or debilitating illnesses (ex:crippling rheumatoid arthritis, severe anemia, hormonal imbalances, stress-related disorders, etc.)

Quote
I will be honest with you. I hated being pregnant. I was nauseous all of the time. My sciatic nerve was constantly being pinched which made it painful to walk, lay down, or sit for the last six months of the pregnancy. And my pregnancy was considered normal and healthy.

To me, this reads like a description of torture. Though I was replying to Tamara's post's with a tongue-in-cheek style of sorts, it doesn't to me, seem that pregnancy for her was not particularly a cakewalk. She hated it and gave some pretty scary and painful descriptions of her experience.
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« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2008, 05:06:18 PM »

Quote
Having the baby makes all of pain worthwhile but the pregnancy part is not a time of joy for all women. Please come down to reality before you get married. Don't romanticize life.


What can I say, I'm a hopeless romantic. Ironically, I often am accused of being too strict and too realistic by others.  Huh

Quote
During my first pregnancy my husband was working 50 hours or more a week while getting his master's degree. He often travelled to Japan on business during both of my pregnancies. I was on my own quite often during that time.  How will you have time to cater to your wife's every whim? What you wrote sounds like a fairy tale. Life is just not like that....unless you are independently wealthy and don't have to work?

Well, I don't know what the Lord has in store for me. However, I don't foresee this kind of job with me. Who knows? Perhaps I'll get the perfect job and have plenty of time with my family, perhaps not. God only knows. At the present,my job isn't what you described.

IN my life, I was raised in frugality and a fairly impoverished household. I'm from the country and family is everything. My future wife and I have a lot if emotional and physical support from our families. We also have a lot of support from our Church. Hardly any money, but its connections that have always seemed to make the difference. I suppose I could end up like Job. Of course, Job was more abundantly blessed than before. I don't see this as a fairy tale.

Quote
I am assuming you meant to write a woman's labor only lasted four hours. Yes. Some women sail through labor but others do not. I just wanted to bring some real world realism into what many men view in a romantic or unrealistic way. And remember, I was one of lucky ones because my pregnancies were healthy as were my babies. I understand your desire to be a father. Becoming a mother was my life dream too. I love being a mom. Just try to be realistic and enter into your marriage with your eyes wide open and your feet on the ground.

I think a lack of Charity the main thing that destroys relationships. Whether its family or friends, Christians should concern themsleves with this. Frankly, growing up in the feminist charged 90's, I had to grow up being blamed for the ignorance of all males in the past. That has made me particularly concerned with sensitivity about the nature of "woman". However, after seeing the failure of the feminist revolution, I realized that men AND women have a lot to learn from each other. Often times, I see men trampled under the respect women banner and thier concerns trivialized in the face of women and their struggles. This is simply anti-Christian. Rather, the reality needs to be brought to the relationship of men and women relating to and living in harmony with each other in relationship with the Holy Trinity.

The accomplishment of spouses bring each other to the Holy Trinity through deification is a most awesome Mystery to me. I don't know if that qualifies me as pursuing a fairy tale. I think it qualifies me as a Christian working to transform, with the aid of his future spouse, his Holy Crowning by the Grace of God.
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« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2008, 05:09:28 PM »

I just wanted to bring a little reality (I left out a lot of details) into the picture because while I have heard many men suggest a priest should be a part of the family equation, I have never heard any of them mention a woman's doctor. The woman's perspective was lacking. I only was trying to provide a different viewpoint.

And I'm glad you did.  I can't believe that folks wouldn't consult their doctors on this, but then again, sometimes they don't like utilizing folks for their talents and gifts.
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« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2008, 05:46:09 PM »

Then whoever you marry may severely limit how often you enjoy the marital embrace. I know that I would if I was married to someone who refused to use any form of contraception. The woman is the one who carries the baby and pregnancy is very difficult for some women. I will be honest with you. I hated being pregnant. I was nauseous all of the time. My sciatic nerve was constantly being pinched which made it painful to walk, lay down, or sit for the last six months of the pregnancy. And my pregnancy was considered normal and healthy.

It is true that all things you mentioned do effect the health of a woman. I was in A-1 shape before my first pregnancy. I hiked, biked, swam, worked out at the gym etc. but unfortunately, I was unable to continue with this regimen after about four months of pregnancy. With the second pregnancy I was in okay shape but I no longer had time to exercise as hard as I did before I had children. As a mother, I put the babies first, and so my health came second. It wasn't until my children were in school that I had time to exercise as I had before children. Each woman is different. Some women sail through their pregnancies and I have heard some say they feel their best when pregnant. Others have a host of problems which can become more severe with each pregnancy. You and the woman you marry may need to adjust ideals according to your situation.

I would just like to point out that this is part of the reasoning that the pro-choice advocates say that abortion should be allowed.
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« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2008, 06:03:40 PM »

I would just like to point out that this is part of the reasoning that the pro-choice advocates say that abortion should be allowed.

These were my personal views from having been pregnant and I have never, ever been pro-choice. I am also not a feminist.
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« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2008, 06:12:59 PM »

I would just like to point out that this is part of the reasoning that the pro-choice advocates say that abortion should be allowed.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

Tamara was simply trying to present the balancing point of view- that pregnancy is not easy for all women, but is a great blessing.  Some women are blessed to have fairly easy pregnancies and labors (my sister slept through both of her labors- she pushed for less than an hour for both children).  Other women are not so blessed.  The physical and psychological hardships of pregnancy can be such that they are hard to even imagine, unless one has experienced them firsthand through childbirth or by being very close to a pregnant woman throughout her pregnancy and watching what she goes through.  Tamara even spared the worst in her posts...  

And then there are some women who are not blessed with childbearing at all...

Since this thread is about contraception...
Many on this forum have objected to contraception for moral reasons (which I understand, whether I agree or not).  What say you all about women who take the Pill for reasons other than contraception (as I stated in my previous post)?  With all the criticism of the Pill that has gone on specifically in this thread, there are many women who have found it to be a great blessing, as it has made their quality of life so much better, and as it is a necessity to treat the conditions from which they suffer.  Where do you all fall on that one?  Just curious...

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« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2008, 06:34:02 PM »

These were my personal views from having been pregnant and I have never, ever been pro-choice. I am also not a feminist.

I also have never been (nor will I ever be) pro-choice, but I am a feminist in that I desire equality for men and women.  I am not a bra-burning "feminist," however, which I believe is the category of feminist to which LakaYaRabb was referring.

Why is it that conversations about pregnancy, women's "roles," etc. usually end up discussing abortion and bra-burning feminism, as though that's what every woman believes and desires? 


Frankly, growing up in the feminist charged 90's, I had to grow up being blamed for the ignorance of all males in the past. That has made me particularly concerned with sensitivity about the nature of "woman". However, after seeing the failure of the feminist revolution, I realized that men AND women have a lot to learn from each other. Often times, I see men trampled under the respect women banner and thier concerns trivialized in the face of women and their struggles. This is simply anti-Christian.

From what I learned about the feminist movement by an award-winning professor of women's studies at the University of Georgia and civil rights activist(Dr. Johnson-Bailey)...

You were never "blamed" for the ignorance of all males in the past.  The only thing the feminist "movement" ever asked for was a recognition that men (specifically white males) reap the benefits of the men of the past and that this should be rectified, not to place blame on the men who obviously had nothing to do with it.  Yes, men and women have a lot to learn from each other.  But I'll raise you ten women who are denied positions, sexually harassed, demoted, not promoted, not taken seriously, their concerns trivialized in the face of the male ego, etc. to your one man who has been "trampled under the respect women banner and their concerns trivialized in the face of women and their struggles." 

It is anti-Christian that either situation should happen.  But please remember, that the struggles of any person, man or woman, should be the concern of Christians, who should try to rectify the situation and help their fellow human being.  This was the goal of the "feminist movement"- to rectify the situation.  And I'll be the first to say that, having encountered the "glass ceiling" as a result of being a woman many times, it is (rightly) not over yet.

Rather, the reality needs to be brought to the relationship of men and women relating to and living in harmony with each other in relationship with the Holy Trinity.
Agreed.

As I said before, I am not a bra-burning "feminist" (who, btw, to my mind have given those in favor of equal rights for women a bad name), and, lest anyone jump on me as being a liberal heretic, nor am I one who seeks the ordination of women or anything like that.  When it comes to such matters, I am conservative.  I mean no offense by the things I say, I am only, like Tamara, trying to offer the balancing point of view.
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« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2008, 06:54:32 PM »

Since this thread is about contraception...
Many on this forum have objected to contraception for moral reasons (which I understand, whether I agree or not).  What say you all about women who take the Pill for reasons other than contraception (as I stated in my previous post)?  With all the criticism of the Pill that has gone on specifically in this thread, there are many women who have found it to be a great blessing, as it has made their quality of life so much better, and as it is a necessity to treat the conditions from which they suffer.  Where do you all fall on that one?  Just curious...

I've been there.  For many years, the Pill was a great blessing to me because of hormonal irregularities that made life difficult.  When I went off the Pill for a while to have a child, things really got bad.  But the Pill seems to have helped to regulate me, because I went off the Pill late in 2006 with trepidation, but discovered my cycles were much more regular.  I've had no reason to regret going off the Pill this time. 
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« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2008, 08:09:38 PM »

However, after seeing the failure of the feminist revolution, I realized that men AND women have a lot to learn from each other.

The feminist revolution failed Huh Not meaning to be contentious, but did I miss something?  Shocked
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« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2008, 08:14:20 PM »

The feminist revolution failed Huh Not meaning to be contentious, but did I miss something?  Shocked

Nope, just reactionary propaganda devoid from any realistic understanding of history.
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« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2008, 08:18:27 PM »

Unrealistic? Shakespeare was too a woman. Grin
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« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2008, 08:41:45 PM »

But please remember, that the struggles of any person, man or woman, should be the concern of Christians, who should try to rectify the situation and help their fellow human being.  This was the goal of the "feminist movement"- to rectify the situation.  And I'll be the first to say that, having encountered the "glass ceiling" as a result of being a woman many times, it is (rightly) not over yet.

Well said, GreekChef. Viva la Revolution! Grin

Just because many injustices have been put down and are a thing of the past, let's not forget that for hundreds of years of Christian history most women were without rights and were considered second-class and inferior.  


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« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2008, 10:10:51 PM »

These were my personal views from having been pregnant and I have never, ever been pro-choice. I am also not a feminist.

There's a family at St. Lawrence in Felton (I think it is there) with 10 children!  I heard the wife loved being pregnant.  Doesn't exactly happen that often I presume...
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« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2008, 10:40:25 PM »

Well said, GreekChef. Viva la Revolution! Grin

Just because many injustices have been put down and are a thing of the past, let's not forget that for hundreds of years of Christian history most women were without rights and were considered second-class and inferior.  

Hear, Hear! (from a guy that sits slightly further to the left on this issue than most people here Wink)
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« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2008, 11:24:08 PM »

Having the baby makes all of pain worthwhile but the pregnancy part is not a time of joy for all women. Please come down to reality before you get married. Don't romanticize life.

During my first pregnancy my husband was working 50 hours or more a week while getting his master's degree. He often travelled to Japan on business during both of my pregnancies. I was on my own quite often during that time.  How will you have time to cater to your wife's every whim? What you wrote sounds like a fairy tale. Life is just not like that....unless you are independently wealthy and don't have to work?

I am assuming you meant to write a woman's labor only lasted four hours. Yes. Some women sail through labor but others do not. I just wanted to bring some real world realism into what many men view in a romantic or unrealistic way. And remember, I was one of lucky ones because my pregnancies were healthy as were my babies. I understand your desire to be a father. Becoming a mother was my life dream too. I love being a mom. Just try to be realistic and enter into your marriage with your eyes wide open and your feet on the ground.




I have to say it seems that the thought is only men romanticize/mythologize having children.  Far from the truth.

many woman have children because they want someone to love in their lives.  A lot of teen pregnancy (and many DO try to get pregnant) comes from this. Quite sad.

All I can say is that it won't be what you expect, and you'll find out how unready  you were for it.  Oh, and that it's worth it.
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2008, 12:09:27 AM »

These were my personal views from having been pregnant and I have never, ever been pro-choice. I am also not a feminist.

That wasn't my point.  My point was that the pro-choice advocates use the same reasoning to justify what they justify.  I don't think the justification is valid.  
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« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2008, 12:20:02 AM »

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

Tamara was simply trying to present the balancing point of view- that pregnancy is not easy for all women, but is a great blessing.  Some women are blessed to have fairly easy pregnancies and labors (my sister slept through both of her labors- she pushed for less than an hour for both children).  Other women are not so blessed.  The physical and psychological hardships of pregnancy can be such that they are hard to even imagine, unless one has experienced them firsthand through childbirth or by being very close to a pregnant woman throughout her pregnancy and watching what she goes through.  Tamara even spared the worst in her posts...  

And then there are some women who are not blessed with childbearing at all...

Since this thread is about contraception...
Many on this forum have objected to contraception for moral reasons (which I understand, whether I agree or not).  What say you all about women who take the Pill for reasons other than contraception (as I stated in my previous post)?  With all the criticism of the Pill that has gone on specifically in this thread, there are many women who have found it to be a great blessing, as it has made their quality of life so much better, and as it is a necessity to treat the conditions from which they suffer.  Where do you all fall on that one?  Just curious...



It has to do with it because I think the justification she uses for contraception does not work.  It is the same justification that the prochoice people use.  Pain can not make an action that is immoral to be moral. 

I have no problem with contraceptives being used for other reasons.
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« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2008, 05:33:53 AM »

I just wanted to bring a little reality (I left out a lot of details) into the picture because while I have heard many men suggest a priest should be a part of the family equation, I have never heard any of them mention a woman's doctor. The woman's perspective was lacking. I only was trying to provide a different viewpoint.

The metion of the woman's doctor is how the reference to the priest came up.

So please include your wife's health and her doctor in the equation to make sure her body can bear closely spaced children.

Any need to squeeze a priest in there somewhere?  I wouldn't trust an OB who doubles as an abortionist, for instance.
How does woman's doctor=woman's perspective?
I'd also include your wife's health and her spiritual advisor in the equation to make sure her soul can bear closely spaced children, if that is the plan, which seems to be the assumption (without reason IMHO) here.
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« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2008, 11:51:23 AM »

There's a family at St. Lawrence in Felton (I think it is there) with 10 children!  I heard the wife loved being pregnant.  Doesn't exactly happen that often I presume...

Our family doctor and his wife have 10 children (RC).  He has always given us good advice on caring for our kids.

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« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2008, 01:26:42 PM »

It is a common statement by Catholic apologists that the Catholic Church alone has maintained the traditional Christian teaching on contraception and abortion.  They believe that the allowance of contraception by various Christian bodies (starting with the Anglican Church in 1930) led to a decrease in sexual morality and led to Christian people being more accepting of abortion later on.  I hate to say this, but the statements by some Orthodox Christians, both on this board and referenced by it, make me think perhaps the Orthodox Church is heading down the same path.  Will the Orthodox Church hold to the ancient faith, or will it follow the example of so many other Christian bodies, abandoning traditional morality?  The Orthodox liturgy is beautiful.  I hope that the Church's commitment to righteousness continues to match it.
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« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2008, 01:38:26 PM »

It is a common statement by Catholic apologists that the Catholic Church alone has maintained the traditional Christian teaching on contraception and abortion.  They believe that the allowance of contraception by various Christian bodies (starting with the Anglican Church in 1930) led to a decrease in sexual morality and led to Christian people being more accepting of abortion later on.  I hate to say this, but the statements by some Orthodox Christians, both on this board and referenced by it, make me think perhaps the Orthodox Church is heading down the same path.  Will the Orthodox Church hold to the ancient faith, or will it follow the example of so many other Christian bodies, abandoning traditional morality?  The Orthodox liturgy is beautiful.  I hope that the Church's commitment to righteousness continues to match it.

It really bugs me when people pontificate like this. It must be nice to be a fundamentalist living in a black and white world where "the ancient faith" says that a woman who is beaten by her husband can never find happiness with someone else......
Life just isn't like that, nor is Christianity. Christ often stood where difficult decisions had to be made. The Law He came to fulfil said adulterers must be stoned to death, so He challenged the one without sin to be the first to uphold the Law.
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« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2008, 01:39:43 PM »

And what if you already had two young children and a pregnancy endangered your life and the fetus? Would you force the pain and hardship of your death (which would likely result in the death of the fetus as well) for an ideological stand? Is this ideology really important enough to stand by at the expense of inflicting untold pain and suffering on not merely your neighbour but on your own Children...what would anybody gain but hardship? As ozgeorge said the right choice, the moral choice, is often the lesser of two evils.

Actually, I have thought of that with relation to my husband.  As I said, I'm not going to air my personal circumstances, but for me, the choice is simple.  I will not voluntarily kill my unborn child.  If God wills that we both die, then so be it.  But I will not be responsible for it.  My husband agrees with me on this, too. 

As I said, though, I am in favor of a law that allows special circumstances (to be judged by a doctor and a judge together), because I won't judge somebody who, presented with the same circumstance, chooses to abort the child.

Obviously I have not been in the situation mentioned.  And God forbid I do end up there, who knows, maybe I'll change my mind.  But as my husband and I have prayed about it and discussed it together, this is where I stand right now.

You may dismiss it as "ideology," but some of us struggle to attain salvation amidst these types of problems and questions every day.  So before this gets nasty, let's just agree to have a little respect in our tone when discussing, shall we?
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« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2008, 01:58:12 PM »

I am in favor of a law that allows special circumstances (to be judged by a doctor and a judge together)

I think such a law must be clearly spelled out to ensure that a decision (one way or the other) can never be forced on a woman.
For example, in the case of women who are under the Legal Guardianship or Power of Attorney, who should decide?
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« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2008, 02:30:23 PM »

The metion of the woman's doctor is how the reference to the priest came up.
How does woman's doctor=woman's perspective?
I'd also include your wife's health and her spiritual advisor in the equation to make sure her soul can bear closely spaced children, if that is the plan, which seems to be the assumption (without reason IMHO) here.

Because a woman's doctor is responsible for her health and will make recommendations about how closely a woman can space her children based upon her health. A priest can not advise a woman in regard to her health because that is not his area of specialty. My grandmother had 13 children from the time she was 30 till the age of 45. Her priest and her husband saw no problem with this type of close spacing even though the last pregnancy almost killed her. In fact, she never fully recovered her health after the last baby. Her doctor told her husband,"No more babies or your wife will die." Which gave my grandmother the information she needed to tell my grandfather he could no longer sleep in their room (they were Roman Catholic and did not use any form of birth control).
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« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2008, 03:33:15 PM »

And how many nappies did these Fathers change and school lunches did they cut, and school uniforms did they wash and iron? How many sleepless nights did they have nursing colic? How many jobs did they have to work to support their kids?
Oh please!

That is irrelevant.  No matter how difficult it is to raise a child that does not justify abortion.  In that case you might as well aquite the person who shakes a baby to death or beats it to death to get it to stop crying.  your logic can be applied to other more extreme situations. 

Experience of being a parent does not change the truth.  Jesus can not condemn drug addiction since He never experienced a high.  He can't judge sexual addiction since He was celibate.  He can't judge any sinner because He never sinned.  All things are justified.  Therefore we should go and live it up.

Further, as Paul mentions we do not justify the means by the ends.  Some accused the early Christians of this but it is not true.  Abortion can not be justified because it allows an easier life. 

Regarding the earlier mention of the soul and the body.  It is irrelevant because it is still Gods will that you have a child.  You look at the scriptures it shows God intervening and making certian women pregnant, for example Abraham's wife Sarah.  Every child is part of Gods plan.  It is not our job to choose whether that child lives.  That is Gods job.  Our job is to do the will of God.  Further, Fr Ambrose mentioned that it is not necessarily the only tradition that the soul is formed from the parents soul.  He also mentions that many fathers spoke of the soul being formed seperately by God.  Whether St. Ephrem or St. Clement or any other father was married does not affect whether this statement is true.  You experiencing a baby that has colic does not mean that baby was not born with a soul. 
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« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2008, 04:42:11 PM »

Quote
Because a woman's doctor is responsible for her health and will make recommendations about how closely a woman can space her children based upon her health. A priest can not advise a woman in regard to her health because that is not his area of specialty. My grandmother had 13 children from the time she was 30 till the age of 45. Her priest and her husband saw no problem with this type of close spacing even though the last pregnancy almost killed her. In fact, she never fully recovered her health after the last baby. Her doctor told her husband,"No more babies or your wife will die." Which gave my grandmother the information she needed to tell my grandfather he could no longer sleep in their room (they were Roman Catholic and did not use any form of birth control).


Of course doctors make great decisions all the time. (NOTE: Tongue-in-cheek humor)

ONe has to be very careful and even wary of doctors nowadays. An expert in physical health usually completely disregards spiritual health. That's where a priest comes in. IT sounds that you had an unfortunate experience in that your spiritual father wasn't a father to you when you needed him most. Sad, really.

13 Children from age 30 to 45. Since one thing medical science has now offered is the fact that women who wait until nearly 30 yrs of age to have thier first child as a large factor in negatively affecting the overall health of a woman, i'm sure this had a lot to do with it. ALso, was the Khouriyeh healthy? Did she eat healthy? Regular exercise before, during and after pregnancy? Was she stressed all the time? Did she recieve any physical help with child-weening?

Frankly Tamara, you posts make it sound like women who have multiple pregnancies are all like unhappy, unhealthy pregnant sows, constantly breeding without any regard to health.

Quote
Which gave my grandmother the information she needed to tell my grandfather he could no longer sleep in their room


So basically, children are a burden, no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine!

Any overall consideration you could give to the facotrs of health of a woman and its effect and affect on pregnancy seems minor, if not completely absent in your posts. They are all generalizations.  Huh
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« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2008, 05:07:35 PM »



Of course doctors make great decisions all the time. (NOTE: Tongue-in-cheek humor)

ONe has to be very careful and even wary of doctors nowadays. An expert in physical health usually completely disregards spiritual health. That's where a priest comes in. IT sounds that you had an unfortunate experience in that your spiritual father wasn't a father to you when you needed him most. Sad, really.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I think we need to be careful about demonizing doctors.  Not all ob/gyn's are abortion doctors, and many of them are very spiritual indeed.  I have doctors in my family, and they are very spiritual, wonderful people.

There is nothing wrong with saying that a woman should consult her physician.  The best of all worlds would be that the husband goes with her to the doctor, and they go together to see the priest and report what the doctor recommends, so that they can make a good decision based on what is best for them as a couple both physically and spiritually.

My own doctor was (pleasantly) surprised that my husband came with me to my first appointment (he comes to all of my appointments).  She was (and continues to be) very respecful of my husband's status as a priest and considerate of our way of life.  She went out of her way to address spiritual issues so that we would have the knowledge we needed to make an informed decision.  She has more than gone out of her way to help me in other ways, as well, that I won't bore people on the forum with.  Oh, and she doesn't perform abortions.  Any responsible doctor will behave the way my doctor does- that is, being considerate of the patient's concerns and helping them to make informed decisions based on their way of life and what is best for them not only physically, but spiritually.  If one's doctor is not like this, then find a new doctor.  You should never go to a doctor that you are not comfortable with.



13 Children from age 30 to 45. Since one thing medical science has now offered is the fact that women who wait until nearly 30 yrs of age to have thier first child as a large factor in negatively affecting the overall health of a woman, i'm sure this had a lot to do with it. ALso, was the Khouriyeh healthy? Did she eat healthy? Regular exercise before, during and after pregnancy? Was she stressed all the time? Did she recieve any physical help with child-weening?

Frankly Tamara, you posts make it sound like women who have multiple pregnancies are all like unhappy, unhealthy pregnant sows, constantly breeding without any regard to health.
 

So basically, children are a burden, no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine!

The lack of overall consideration you give to the facotrs of health is completely absent in your posts. They are all generalizations.  Huh

I'm having trouble figuring out where these accusations come from.  Tamara is doing nothing more than relating her own personal experiences.  She's not pushing them off on anyone else, nor is she saying that it applies to all women or all men.  She certainly hasn't said that children are a burden (in fact I believe she stated clearly that she loves being a mother), nor did she say "no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine."  She simply said that her grandparents were (BOTH) strict Roman Catholics who felt that celibacy was appropriate in light of the fact that she couldn't bear any more children. 

Tamara was evidencing the fact that doctors are responsible both morally and legally for the health of their patients, and in the case of her grandmother, it was, in fact, her doctor who came to her aid and gave her the knowledge she needed to make an informed decision.  Her doctor did nothing wrong, nor did she.  Tamara is only presenting the side of the coin that says that, while it is easy for anyone, man or woman, to say "no contraception ever," this decision needs to be made with the health of the woman in mind, as well as the couple's spiritual wellbeing.  It would be far worse to ignore the doctor's advice, get pregnant, and then end up in the terrible situation discussed before- where they have to choose between the life of the mother and that of the baby.  Better to be prepared beforehand, don't you think?

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« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2008, 05:12:19 PM »

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I think we need to be careful about demonizing doctors.  Not all ob/gyn's are abortion doctors, and many of them are very spiritual indeed.  I have doctors in my family, and they are very spiritual, wonderful people.

Don't forget, of course, as well, that we have many beloved saints in the Church who were doctors.  Ss. Cosmas and Damianos the Unmercenaries, St. Luke, St. Panteleimon, Ss. Cyril and John the Unmercenaries, just to name a few. 
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« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2008, 05:24:09 PM »

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but I think we need to be careful about demonizing doctors.  Not all ob/gyn's are abortion doctors, and many of them are very spiritual indeed.  I have doctors in my family, and they are very spiritual, wonderful people.

There is nothing wrong with saying that a woman should consult her physician.  The best of all worlds would be that the husband goes with her to the doctor, and they go together to see the priest and report what the doctor recommends, so that they can make a good decision based on what is best for them as a couple both physically and spiritually.

My own doctor was (pleasantly) surprised that my husband came with me to my first appointment (he comes to all of my appointments).  She was (and continues to be) very respecful of my husband's status as a priest and considerate of our way of life.  She went out of her way to address spiritual issues so that we would have the knowledge we needed to make an informed decision.  She has more than gone out of her way to help me in other ways, as well, that I won't bore people on the forum with.  Oh, and she doesn't perform abortions.  Any responsible doctor will behave the way my doctor does- that is, being considerate of the patient's concerns and helping them to make informed decisions based on their way of life and what is best for them not only physically, but spiritually.  If one's doctor is not like this, then find a new doctor.  You should never go to a doctor that you are not comfortable with.


I'm having trouble figuring out where these accusations come from.  Tamara is doing nothing more than relating her own personal experiences.  She's not pushing them off on anyone else, nor is she saying that it applies to all women or all men.  She certainly hasn't said that children are a burden (in fact I believe she stated clearly that she loves being a mother), nor did she say "no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine."  She simply said that her grandparents were (BOTH) strict Roman Catholics who felt that celibacy was appropriate in light of the fact that she couldn't bear any more children. 

Tamara was evidencing the fact that doctors are responsible both morally and legally for the health of their patients, and in the case of her grandmother, it was, in fact, her doctor who came to her aid and gave her the knowledge she needed to make an informed decision.  Her doctor did nothing wrong, nor did she.  Tamara is only presenting the side of the coin that says that, while it is easy for anyone, man or woman, to say "no contraception ever," this decision needs to be made with the health of the woman in mind, as well as the couple's spiritual wellbeing.  It would be far worse to ignore the doctor's advice, get pregnant, and then end up in the terrible situation discussed before- where they have to choose between the life of the mother and that of the baby.  Better to be prepared beforehand, don't you think?



Thank you Presvetera, you completely understand what I was trying to communicate.  Smiley

I would like to add that from what I understand the majority of OB/GYNs do not perform abortions. My OB/GYN had four children of her own and was very sympathetic to my beliefs in having children. When I told her I didn't want to have an amniocentesis taken with my second pregnancy she was supportive and did not pressure me to have it.

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« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2008, 05:25:45 PM »



Of course doctors make great decisions all the time. (NOTE: Tongue-in-cheek humor)

ONe has to be very careful and even wary of doctors nowadays. An expert in physical health usually completely disregards spiritual health. That's where a priest comes in. IT sounds that you had an unfortunate experience in that your spiritual father wasn't a father to you when you needed him most. Sad, really.

13 Children from age 30 to 45. Since one thing medical science has now offered is the fact that women who wait until nearly 30 yrs of age to have thier first child as a large factor in negatively affecting the overall health of a woman, i'm sure this had a lot to do with it. ALso, was the Khouriyeh healthy? Did she eat healthy? Regular exercise before, during and after pregnancy? Was she stressed all the time? Did she recieve any physical help with child-weening?

Frankly Tamara, you posts make it sound like women who have multiple pregnancies are all like unhappy, unhealthy pregnant sows, constantly breeding without any regard to health.
 

So basically, children are a burden, no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine!

Any overall consideration you could give to the facotrs of health of a woman and its effect and affect on pregnancy seems minor, if not completely absent in your posts. They are all generalizations.  Huh

And just to clarify a few misconceptions and questions from my post. My grandmother was not a priest's wife. My grandparents married late in life because it took a few years before my grandfather could send for her from the old country. They didn't use any birth control because they were strict Roman Catholics. She was a very fertile woman so since they were both open to life she got pregnant almost yearly. She was obviously, originally, in very good health otherwise she could never have had so many pregnancies in a row. She came from strong peasant stock. She cooked very healthy meals (ex: homemade bread every week, home grown vegetables and fruits from her garden) for her family but she was unable to exercise because she didn't have time due to caring for her large family. Eventually her health did fail.

I also didn't marry until I was 30 due to the fact I didn't meet my husband until that time. I had children in my 30s and it did not effect my health in a negative way. I am very healthy.
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« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2008, 06:32:27 PM »

Presbytera Mari,

Quote
I'm having trouble figuring out where these accusations come from.  Tamara is doing nothing more than relating her own personal experiences.  She's not pushing them off on anyone else, nor is she saying that it applies to all women or all men.  She certainly hasn't said that children are a burden (in fact I believe she stated clearly that she loves being a mother), nor did she say "no sex for you, you inconsiderate male-breeding machine."  She simply said that her grandparents were (BOTH) strict Roman Catholics who felt that celibacy was appropriate in light of the fact that she couldn't bear any more children.  


There needs to be complete assessment of all Tamara's posts. "I hated being pregnant" doesn't read like I like being a more. Geneally, when a person assesses the blessings and joys of an expereince, they don't say they hated it and mention all of the horrors associated with that experience. When reading Tamara's posts, I was under the impression that prenancy is nothin but pain and suffering. Of course some women don't experience pain and suffering? I would say that most women do experience pain and suffering in pregnancy, right? Isn't uncomfortable? I would assume so. The reality that a living and growing human being in the womb of a mother depends completely on the mother for sustanance is a obvious fact of biology, isn't it. I mean, duh?

Tamara is right to point out that all women have different experiences. For some pregnancy is a tremendous burden physically.

Howeverm the OP was simply mortifying. It even contains a shot at MEN. Here, read it for yourself:

Quote
 I have read many opinions over the last few years from young married or almost married MEN about the use of contraception in a marriage. Many of these idealists have proclaimed or vowed not use it in their marriage. But be prepared for the consequences of how multiple pregnancies will affect the long-term health of your future wife. I have many friends who followed this path and I admire their large families. But most, if not all of these mothers in these families (age range mid 40s) have long-term or debilitating illnesses (ex:crippling rheumatoid arthritis, severe anemia, hormonal imbalances, stress-related disorders, etc.) due to caring for large families.

I'm sorry, but debilitating illness resulting from multiple pregnancies sounds pretty burdensome to me.

Read the OP. It is a generalization.

IN fact this is what the first response to her OP includes:

Quote
Painting a bleak picture of having many kids seems a bit overdone.  Yes, it is good to warn people to the risks involved, and not allow them to get caught up in some sort of idyllic dream.

But I repeat... what a downer!

Here's another post by Tamara:

Quote
I guess it has been hard for me to watch all of my church friends with large families suffer from health ailments over the last few years. When they were young, they were able to bounce back easily but now, as they are reaching menopause many of them are falling apart physically. Many of them look years older than their husbands. I look around at my female neighbors and girlfriends who do not attend church and have smaller families. They are all so much healthier than my church friends. My one girlfriend at church always has deep, dark circles under her eyes. She just found out she is severely anemic and most of her boys are teenagers right now (she has six children). Its been very stressful for her with her boys. They are good kids but they put her through the ringer emotionally. Her husband is very supportive but he works all day. I guess I just want men to appreciate the sacrifices women make to bear large families.

Generalizations. This is not her personal experience, but her personal interpretation of other peoples experiences.

Later, she says this

Quote
It is interesting how this thread as developed but also I notice only men are now posting here.

Umm. So what? IN the same post:

Quote
First, I hope that any man who is planning to marry and not use contraception does not pressure his bride-to-be into
forgoing contraception if she disagrees. Bearing children takes alot out a woman's body and she should be apart of the decision making. And when I speak of contraception I am only thinking of the kind that does not abort a fertilized egg or that does not harm a woman's hormonal system.

And second, remember, not every woman is sturdy or hearty enough to have a baby ever year or year and half. I was advised by my OB to space out my pregnancies by three years so my body had time to recover. By following my doctor's orders I was able to have two really healthy pregnancies and two very healthy boys. So please include your wife's health and her doctor in the equation to make sure her body can bear closely spaced children.

The generalization here is that "men" don't already do these. Are these good points, yes. Do they apply to all men. No.

Here is a reply to one of my posts:

Quote
Then whoever you marry may severely limit how often you enjoy the marital embrace. I know that I would if I was married to someone who refused to use any form of contraception. The woman is the one who carries the baby and pregnancy is very difficult for some women. I will be honest with you. I hated being pregnant. I was nauseous all of the time. My sciatic nerve was constantly being pinched which made it painful to walk, lay down, or sit for the last six months of the pregnancy. And my pregnancy was considered normal and healthy.

Again, no mention of what a man feels or any pressures men have when his wife is pregnant. Hello, men have feels and struggle too. We are different and NO ONE ever talks about that. When a couple is united by the Church in the Mystery of Holy Crowning, the are joined together. Why don't I hear about what men have to go through? Is it just unimportant?

Also, Tamara says women shouldn't be forced into refraining from the use of birth control. IN this post, she states quite contridictorily that it is okay in her eyes for a bride to limit the marital embrace without consent from the husband. I'm sorry, but this kind of think severely harms the marital bond. She does (thankfully) point out that decisions should be made together, though.

For the sake of clarity, the OP should have started like this post:

Quote
It is true that...things...do effect the health of a woman. I was in A-1 shape before my first pregnancy. I hiked, biked, swam, worked out at the gym etc. but unfortunately, I was unable to continue with this regimen after about four months of pregnancy. With the second pregnancy I was in okay shape but I no longer had time to exercise as hard as I did before I had children. As a mother, I put the babies first, and so my health came second. It wasn't until my children were in school that I had time to exercise as I had before children. Each woman is different. Some women sail through their pregnancies and I have heard some say they feel their best when pregnant. Others have a host of problems which can become more severe with each pregnancy. You and the woman you marry may need to adjust ideals according to your situation.

This would be a more appropriate introduction to the discussion of child-spacing.

The folloing post is a more in line with a personal experience:

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Having the baby makes all of pain worthwhile but the pregnancy part is not a time of joy for all women. Please come down to reality before you get married. Don't romanticize life.


She also makes this post:

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I just wanted to bring some real world realism into what many men view in a romantic or unrealistic way. And remember, I was one of lucky ones because my pregnancies were healthy as were my babies. I understand your desire to be a father. Becoming a mother was my life dream too. I love being a mom. Just try to be realistic and enter into your marriage with your eyes wide open and your feet on the ground.

It's a good post, however, the earlier posts don't really give the impression that pregnancy is joyful. I have to wonder if Tamara had ANY joyful experiences during her pregancies. Yes, I know that pregnancy is painful and uncomfortable for women (which, I'm sure is an understatement). How could it not be? I'm sure I don't have to go through the host of discomforts and pains for Tamara or yourself to agree. However, aren't there joys during pregnancy? I assume there are.

I'm glad that Tamara seems completely understood by youself. I think Cleveland offers the best assessment of both Tamara's points, my understanding and his own appropriate words of caution in this post:

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I'm sure it's just a misuse or misunderstanding of the language, but if it's either, at least he's already acknowledging the fact that pregnancy is hard, and that he'll never experience it firsthand.

I don't know if anyone that's posting here on OC.net, or at least no one that I've seen so far, has any sort of overly-naive view of the woman's burden in pregnancy - the sickness, hormone swings, physical burden, emotional burden, psychological struggle with living a restricted life, and of course the possible long-term after-effects.  I'm glad you're trying to "shake up" anyone that does, just be careful not to paint too bleak a picture.

Okay, basically, you get the picture with my posts.

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Tamara was evidencing the fact that doctors are responsible both morally and legally for the health of their patients, and in the case of her grandmother, it was, in fact, her doctor who came to her aid and gave her the knowledge she needed to make an informed decision.  Her doctor did nothing wrong, nor did she.  Tamara is only presenting the side of the coin that says that, while it is easy for anyone, man or woman, to say "no contraception ever," this decision needs to be made with the health of the woman in mind, as well as the couple's spiritual wellbeing.  It would be far worse to ignore the doctor's advice, get pregnant, and then end up in the terrible situation discussed before- where they have to choose between the life of the mother and that of the baby.  Better to be prepared beforehand, don't you think?

My questioning of a doctors assessment of the situation is a comcial generalization. I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to know anything about making definitive statements concerning life-threatening situations brought about by multiple pregnancies.

I do have to wonder, what factors contributed to the life-threatening situation? I'm mean, it's gotta be pretty serious if the doctor tells you, no more babies or your wife dies. Can the overall cause be treated? What was the overall cause? When Tamara put this example out there, all we, the readers are left with is to assume that her grandmother's multiple pregnancies were the cause of her possible death. More problematuically, the only solution offered by the doctor, according to Tamara's post was, no more children.

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It would be far worse to ignore the doctor's advice, get pregnant, and then end up in the terrible situation discussed before- where they have to choose between the life of the mother and that of the baby.  Better to be prepared beforehand, don't you think?

Are all assessments of multiple child-births this bleak? I'm not a doctor, but isn't it possible that certain unmentioned factors played a role in this situation? Can the situation be remedied ever? The whole scenario seems very defeatest to me. What if her grandparents wanted another child? Does it always have to end in "Steel Magnolia's"? I mean, what exactly are doctors who study women's health and fertility doing to remedy these situations? Does anyone know?
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lubeltri
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« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2008, 06:33:11 PM »

And what if you already had two young children and a pregnancy endangered your life and the fetus? Would you force the pain and hardship of your death (which would likely result in the death of the fetus as well) for an ideological stand? Is this ideology really important enough to stand by at the expense of inflicting untold pain and suffering on not merely your neighbour but on your own Children...what would anybody gain but hardship? As ozgeorge said the right choice, the moral choice, is often the lesser of two evils.

Now, not all of us reach the kind of sanctity as exemplified by St. (Dr.) Gianna Molla


but we can certainly aspire to it and are expected to do so. We are called to be saints, and shepherds in the Church should not be telling their flock to choose the lesser of two evils. Choose neither evil, and if you fail, there is compassion and absolution.

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« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2008, 06:49:24 PM »

but we can certainly aspire to it and are expected to do so. We are called to be saints, and shepherds in the Church should not be telling their flock to choose the lesser of two evils. Choose neither evil, and if you fail, there is compassion and absolution.

That quote's amusing, since it was one of your religious organization's saints that said "Of two evils the lesser should always be chosen."
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 06:50:17 PM by Veniamin » Logged

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lubeltri
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« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2008, 07:00:48 PM »

That quote's amusing, since it was one of your religious organization's saints that said "Of two evils the lesser should always be chosen."

There it is again.  Cheesy Your rhetoric is amusing.

-

Well:

1) Thomas a Kempis is not a canonized saint.

2) Even if he were, saints (like popes) are not always right.
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« Reply #134 on: January 15, 2008, 07:10:37 PM »

There it is again.  Cheesy Your rhetoric is amusing.

Well, of course.  To call your organization the Church would necessarily require me to deny that Orthodoxy is the Church.  I'm not going to stoop to apostasy simply to be nice. Roll Eyes

And now I'm getting us off topic...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 07:23:40 PM by Veniamin » Logged

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