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samurai333
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« on: January 09, 2008, 11:19:32 PM »

Hey, I am a RC, who is curious what sort of music is used at the Western Rite Orthodox churches? Does it have any instrumental accompanyment? Also, this is unrelated but could ya'll pray for me as I consider a conversion to Orthodoxy, that I will make the choice to follow the truth.
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 11:37:53 PM »

Hey, I am a RC, who is curious what sort of music is used at the Western Rite Orthodox churches? Does it have any instrumental accompanyment? Also, this is unrelated but could ya'll pray for me as I consider a conversion to Orthodoxy, that I will make the choice to follow the truth.

From what I've heard, traditional chants based on the Liturgy/Use they are performing.  So Gregorian chants, Anglican chants, Gallican chants, etc.  Instrumental accompaniments are usually covered by an organ, though I have heard of orchestral pieces too.

May the Lord preserve and guide you during your inquiry into Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 12:37:02 AM »

From what I've heard, traditional chants based on the Liturgy/Use they are performing.  So Gregorian chants, Anglican chants, Gallican chants, etc.  Instrumental accompaniments are usually covered by an organ, though I have heard of orchestral pieces too.

May the Lord preserve and guide you during your inquiry into Orthodoxy.

That's spot on.
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2008, 01:37:03 AM »

Hey, I am a RC, who is curious what sort of music is used at the Western Rite Orthodox churches? Does it have any instrumental accompanyment? Also, this is unrelated but could ya'll pray for me as I consider a conversion to Orthodoxy, that I will make the choice to follow the truth.

i.e. Orthodoxy angel

If you go to the site for Holy Incarnation, it has stuff on music:
http://www.members.cox.net/frnicholas/Hymnal.htm

I went last Sunday.  It was plainchant for the most part, some hymns, at some points accompanied by a violin.  Very much TLM, just in English.
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 11:46:53 PM »

I went last Sunday.  It was plainchant for the most part, some hymns, at some points accompanied by a violin.  Very much TLM, just in English.

Pardon, but a violin? It seems like a silly thing to be present in Orthodox worship even if it is Western Rite. I've seen violins in Catholic Churches but those came around with the post Vatican II antics. I'm ok with an organ for the most part (but in Western worship) as long as it is a nice old fashioned pipe organ but I think a violin is pretty strange. I don't think they were playin a fiddle in the worship in the ancient Western liturgies. I think things like this just turn the service into a type of show. Why not use an ancient form of Western liturgical music (such as Gregorian)?

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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 11:55:40 PM »

Have WR churches used work by post-schism composers, like Palestrina, Hildegard von Bingen, or Ockeghem?
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2010, 08:27:38 AM »

I went last Sunday.  It was plainchant for the most part, some hymns, at some points accompanied by a violin.  Very much TLM, just in English.

Pardon, but a violin? It seems like a silly thing to be present in Orthodox worship even if it is Western Rite. I've seen violins in Catholic Churches but those came around with the post Vatican II antics. I'm ok with an organ for the most part (but in Western worship) as long as it is a nice old fashioned pipe organ but I think a violin is pretty strange. I don't think they were playin a fiddle in the worship in the ancient Western liturgies. I think things like this just turn the service into a type of show. Why not use an ancient form of Western liturgical music (such as Gregorian)?



The violin (actually it's a viola) accompanies only on the hymns ( from St. Ambrose WR Hymnal)-because we currently do not have an organist.  We have an organ, and would love to find an organist, but we are very small and organists are in short supply, but we have not stopped looking.  No fiddle show going on-she plays the simple melody and maybe throws in a couple notes from the 4 part harmony.  The rest of the liturgy and offices are sung Acappella-Gregorian chant.

As for other composers-I don't know much about Hildegard von Bingen, or Ockeghem (I am sure once we get an organist if there is prelude of postlude music as in most Western churches I am sure it will be Bach,Handel,Telemann, Corelli,Couperin-the usual suspects;

Also, occasionally there is the the appropriate special hymn sung during the Eucharist by a soloist or duet, usually a Latin hymn--I've heard Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, Panis Angelicus (Franke's melody, I believe), Salve Regina on Marian feasts, the beautiful Aquinas hymn Tantum Ergo( Webbe melody, I believe)-all were sung during the Eucharist-no choir floor shows.
And I stress, this the congregation always sings an appropriate Eucharistic hymn first.

Our Priest has been adamant from the beginning that the congregation IS the choir-everyone sings-.. though we started out slow, after a couple of years we are at the point everyone, right down to the youngest child (2-3 years old) can sing the gregorian liturgy and vespers and matins (psalms)offices which we have before the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2010, 09:04:49 AM »

I'm ok with an organ for the most part (but in Western worship) as long as it is a nice old fashioned pipe organ but I think a violin is pretty strange.

What's the difference between organs and violins? I'd banish pretty much all instruments from Orthodox worship regardless of rite but if instruments are used I can't find any logical reason to banish the latter but accept the former.

Our Priest has been adamant from the beginning that the congregation IS the choir

Why? Due to lack of talented singers to build up a choir? Because of some more fundamental theological reason?
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 12:16:56 PM »

Why? Due to lack of talented singers to build up a choir? Because of some more fundamental theological reason?

Because church isn't a concert hall.

We're supposed to go and pray together, not listen to the professionals perform.
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 01:05:12 PM »

I went last Sunday.  It was plainchant for the most part, some hymns, at some points accompanied by a violin.  Very much TLM, just in English.

Pardon, but a violin? It seems like a silly thing to be present in Orthodox worship even if it is Western Rite. I've seen violins in Catholic Churches but those came around with the post Vatican II antics. I'm ok with an organ for the most part (but in Western worship) as long as it is a nice old fashioned pipe organ but I think a violin is pretty strange. I don't think they were playin a fiddle in the worship in the ancient Western liturgies. I think things like this just turn the service into a type of show. Why not use an ancient form of Western liturgical music (such as Gregorian)?




What's the difference between organs and violins? I'd banish pretty much all instruments from Orthodox worship regardless of rite but if instruments are used I can't find any logical reason to banish the latter but accept the former.

While it does not affect my decision to journey into Orthodoxy in any way, I will never understand the aversion to instrumentation.  Don't get me wrong, I would never argue for "rock band" accompaniments or showy solos or things of that nature, and I do love the sound of a cappella Byzantine chant.  At the same time, it seems somewhat jarring to have a complete ban on instrumentation whilst singing Psalms that mention lyres, cymbals, horns, and other instruments.  The fact that these instruments have changed over the past three thousand years does not change the inherent nature of such music, i.e. stringed instruments produce sound due to the vibrations of strings (whether plucked or drawn) and different tones based on the thickness and tension of the different strings, horns still produce noise based on the air vibrating against the reed and tones based on the opening and closing of passages to change the air flow (or in the case of the flute noise is produced by the air rushing past the opening), and drums and cymbals still produce sharp staccato sounds due to being struck.

When reading through the Fathers and certain disparaging remarks made about instruments, the problem always seems to me to not be the types of instruments used, but the way in which the instruments were used (Except for St Augustine, who seemed to have a problem with music entirely, or enjoying anything).  Is the instrument being used for reverential worship, or to show off the talents of the person playing the instrument?  But one has the same problem even with the choir itself.  Does the church have the choir chanting to provide reverential worship, or to exult in the fact that they have the most skilled cantors in the diocese?

And just to clarify, I am not arguing that all churches have instruments, but sometimes the judgmental attitudes against churches that have decided to have instruments can be somewhat off-putting, whether Western Rite or Eastern. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2010, 02:17:14 PM »

Because church isn't a concert hall.

We're supposed to go and pray together, not listen to the professionals perform.

I've understanded that churches have been "concert halls" i.e. we've had choirs for a thousand years or so. If the Church has been doing something for so long it can't be all wrong. I can pray just fine even though the choir sings pretty much everything in the church I attend.

I will never understand the aversion to instrumentation.

I'm seeing it as a kind of unifying factor between all generations. Musical taste changes over times if we used instruments we probably had same kind of fights about what kind of music to use as Latin Catholics and Protestans are having. I've attended Finnish Lutheran mass accompanied with Metal music. I love Metal but hopefully I won't live to see the day we're having an Orthodox ( or "Orthodox ) equivalent.

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Don't get me wrong, I would never argue for "rock band" accompaniments

Why not? What's the difference between organs and rock bands? Of course even I would prefer organs over rock bands in churches but that's just my gut feeling. I've never heard any reasonable explanations why organs are superior to rock bands.

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At the same time, it seems somewhat jarring to have a complete ban on instrumentation whilst singing Psalms that mention lyres, cymbals, horns, and other instruments.

Say that to early Christians. Or to Jews for that matter.

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Except for St Augustine, who seemed to have a problem with music entirely, or enjoying anything

 Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 04:03:28 PM »

I'm ok with an organ for the most part (but in Western worship) as long as it is a nice old fashioned pipe organ but I think a violin is pretty strange.

What's the difference between organs and violins? I'd banish pretty much all instruments from Orthodox worship regardless of rite but if instruments are used I can't find any logical reason to banish the latter but accept the former.

Our Priest has been adamant from the beginning that the congregation IS the choir

Why? Due to lack of talented singers to build up a choir? Because of some more fundamental theological reason?


I think the wisdom in insisting we all sing and learn chant (including the notation)is that like the Eastern Rte, so much of what we need to learn about God, Salvation and Living in Christ is all right there in the liturgy; from that it moves to inspire our, our prayers and our lives, especially the rich psalm singing in the prayer offices...
He is not like a voice coach, expecting us to sing like a choir, but knows if we sing loud, soft, on key or a little off...the words sink in deeper and pay more attention when we sing them then if we just listen...that's just my theory...he's never really given us a point by point lecture on why...but I think that may come close.

Faith comes through the Word...no better way hear and to really absorb those words than to sing them and know them by heart.

I think the small bit of viola accompaniment helps to keep us on tune with the hymns...we could do it without it, but being a small group, especially with a new hymnal and hymns that are not always familiar...the little bit of help it gives does not hurt.
We often sing without it...as she is not always available-and as we grow we may be able to do all Acapella...but most of us are converts from churches with a rich hymnody tradition-4 part harmony/Bach chorales and such...don't expect you approve of those either....I happen to love both Eastern Rite and Western Rite and find that they enrich each other and I appreciate each one a bit more by what I learn from the other.
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 05:28:48 PM »

re Alpo, rock bands versus organs-

I would say that the reason to exclude "rock bands" is because most forms of rock are inherently about the musical styling.  Those forms of rock which aren't (which I enjoy in my non-church time) tend to not be very conducive to devotion.  I love punk rock, but not during my liturgy, and I know most people don't have the same affection for that particular musical genre.  Much the same as I can't stand banal, saccharine CCM praise and worship standards loved by the generation before me (or even ones from my own generation).  I should also say that I don't necessarily see the presence of a guitar, bass, and drum as a "rock band".

And on that note:
Quote
I'm seeing it as a kind of unifying factor between all generations. Musical taste changes over times if we used instruments we probably had same kind of fights about what kind of music to use as Latin Catholics and Protestans are having. I've attended Finnish Lutheran mass accompanied with Metal music. I love Metal but hopefully I won't live to see the day we're having an Orthodox ( or "Orthodox ) equivalent.

I guess my problem is that I don't really see where the musical instrument itself has any influence on "taste" if it is merely being used to accompany a song already done in traditional style.  Using an organ or piano for drone note/melody reinforcement is completely different than using the organ or piano to "jazz up" a much beloved hymn.  Even without instruments one could change the traditional setting just enough to suit the "taste" of the current generation, say by putting a little doo-wop on "Gladsome Light", or perhaps some Beatles harmonies on "Bless My Soul".  This isn't done, out of reverence, which should be the same guiding principle if and when a musical instrument is used.


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At the same time, it seems somewhat jarring to have a complete ban on instrumentation whilst singing Psalms that mention lyres, cymbals, horns, and other instruments.

Say that to early Christians. Or to Jews for that matter.

It would seem to me that the presence of Fathers complaining about instruments in liturgy throughout Christian history would imply the presence of instruments in liturgy throughout history.  It really seems to have been a matter of taste to the local priest and his bishop, perhaps in conjunction with the people of the parish.  One could also argue the impracticality of lugging instruments about during the Martyrdom era caused the use of instruments to die out.

As for the Jews, the first and second Temple had orchestral sections, a fact attested to not only by the biblical texts, but also the Jewish Talmud.  They also had a cappella music.

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter much to me, I'm debating more on the principle of trying to understand than with any real bone to pick here.
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 02:08:47 AM »

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Much the same as I can't stand banal, saccharine CCM praise and worship standards loved by the generation before me (or even ones from my own generation).

I don't like it either but that's not proper reason exclude it from worship.

Quote
I guess my problem is that I don't really see where the musical instrument itself has any influence on "taste" if it is merely being used to accompany a song already done in traditional style.

I can assure you that it surely has. At least for me it has since I rather it. And I know many Pentecostals who don't. It's all about taste and that's why non-Orthodox Western Christians started to use them in the first place. And if I recall correctly even them started to accompany hymns with organs as late as in 17th century. Before that they were used pretty much like church bells i.e. before and after the mass and during offertory but not to accompany hymns.


Quote
Using an organ or piano for drone note/melody reinforcement is completely different than using the organ or piano to "jazz up" a much beloved hymn.

Then why to use it at all.  Huh

Quote
Even without instruments one could change the traditional setting just enough to suit the "taste" of the current generation, say by putting a little doo-wop on "Gladsome Light", or perhaps some Beatles harmonies on "Bless My Soul".

Nobody disagrees with that.

Quote
It would seem to me that the presence of Fathers complaining about instruments in liturgy throughout Christian history would imply the presence of instruments in liturgy throughout history.

And Fathers complaints about female priesthood and Arianisms implys that early Church was Arian and had female priests?

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As for the Jews, the first and second Temple had orchestral section

And traditional synagogues don't have them even today.
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 09:52:59 AM »

Then why to use it at all.  Huh

To keep tune, especially where the congregation is the choir, like in the small WR parish I've been to. My small Eastern parish uses a tuning fork and the choir director sings out the melody, but that works because we have a slightly larger choir. From my limited experience, classical strings and organs just fit in the WR in ways that they may not in an Eastern rite parish without being passionate indulgence. Done correctly, aspect of WR worship can easily be an example of Orthodox enculturation of rite rather than something to take away. Speaking more broadly, if the Church took away everything foreign to its own culture as it evangelized different territories, Her depository of traditions would be nearly empty.
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2010, 02:08:04 PM »

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Much the same as I can't stand banal, saccharine CCM praise and worship standards loved by the generation before me (or even ones from my own generation).

I don't like it either but that's not proper reason exclude it from worship.

That's true. The best theological reason to exclude the genre is its tendency towards sentimentality. I suppose you could pair the theologically-meaty hymns with the "style", but that's a bit like a death metal band playing a love song. It just doesn't work.

My wife listens to a lot of the sentimental CCM stuff. Every once and I while I will find one touching and reverently done. I think there might have been a song by Third Day that I thought was appropriately approached, but those are the exception. Today most of those songs are so romantically charged that they are borderline erotic (and not in the Greek sense of eros).

I honestly expect a lot of these musicians to beckon the Lord to stick His tongue down their throat and make out with them. You know, the whole "Run Your holy hands through my hair, Whisper softly in my ear with Your still small voice" type thing. Blech.
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2010, 03:28:18 PM »

Quote
Then why to use it at all.   Huh

Quote
I don't like it either but that's not proper reason exclude it from worship.



The posts by Rowan and Alveus hit most of what would be my reply, so I'll just second those, with the addition as regards CCM praise and worship: the best argument against is the thrust of the arguments both you and I have used and one point in which we seem to be in total agreement, that is the traditional style provides a continuous and harmonious worship with the early Church that leaves taste and style out of the equation.  I was merely using CCM as an example, and what I see as a good example, given the wildly changing musical tastes of the past century.  The type of CCM that churches played when I was still attending those types of churches were geared specifically toward the Baby Boomer crowd, leaving both the older generations (my grandparents and great grandparents) and the younger generations (myself and my siblings) out of the loop, so to speak.  Even the "standards" of Protestant hymnography had to do with the specific taste of previous generations, with the Baptist hymnal I grew up with composed of differing styles from Martin Luther's reformed music hall tunes to near barbershop, with the musical selection being based off of whatever the pastor had grown up singing (a lot of Old Rugged Cross, Just As I Am, and And He Walks With Me has gone into these poor ears of mine).

Quote
And Fathers complaints about female priesthood and Arianisms implys that early Church was Arian and had female priests?

No.  The Fathers don't complain about Arianism until the time of Arius.  They don't complain about priestesses until the late 4th and early 5th century.  A better question perhaps would have been "And the Fathers' complaints about Gnosticism would imply that the early Church was Gnostic?"

To which my response would have been "Well played."
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2010, 04:33:32 PM »

You know, this thread illustrates one of the reasons I would be reluctant to be part of a Western Rite parish. The one time I was at one, they used The Hymnal 1940. Now I see that this St. Ambrose thing is heavily byzantinized, and now we're getting the Eastern "no instruments" line. That's not part of Western rites -- modern Western rites, which are the only really legitimate ones.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2010, 04:46:25 PM »

You know, this thread illustrates one of the reasons I would be reluctant to be part of a Western Rite parish. The one time I was at one, they used The Hymnal 1940. Now I see that this St. Ambrose thing is heavily byzantinized, and now we're getting the Eastern "no instruments" line. That's not part of Western rites -- modern Western rites, which are the only really legitimate ones.


Could you expound upon that a little, please?  Specifically the last bit?
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2010, 05:14:25 PM »

You know, this thread illustrates one of the reasons I would be reluctant to be part of a Western Rite parish. The one time I was at one, they used The Hymnal 1940. Now I see that this St. Ambrose thing is heavily byzantinized, and now we're getting the Eastern "no instruments" line. That's not part of Western rites -- modern Western rites, which are the only really legitimate ones.


My comments about this, at least, come with the fine print: online Orthodoxy does not represent real life Orthodoxy. Like with pews (I don't care one way or the other), you're probably going to get a more traditional view going on a self-selecting message board, but the people actually making the decisions are more moderate. For instance, I don't see the strings and organs going away any time soon for the reason you said: these are legitimate aspects of the western liturgy.
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2010, 05:25:50 PM »

You know, this thread illustrates one of the reasons I would be reluctant to be part of a Western Rite parish. The one time I was at one, they used The Hymnal 1940. Now I see that this St. Ambrose thing is heavily byzantinized, and now we're getting the Eastern "no instruments" line. That's not part of Western rites -- modern Western rites, which are the only really legitimate ones.


Many have opinions about instruments, no instruments, hymnody, and a myriad of other things...but the praxis for the Western Rite is not set by opinions, especially ones that want to mix what is Traditional practice in Eastern Rite with the Western Rite to make it more "orthodox". 
As the Western Rite grows, those who are more "in tune" with western tradition will iron out some of the wrinkles-that kind of crept in as Western Rite parishes and mission churches needed to have a formalized version of things like missels, hymnbooks, special occaisional services like marriages, dedication of a new altar or church building, chrismations of adults, lectionary/liturgy materials for the Altar that clergy use, much not written out yet in black and white...and maybe some of it was done in a bit of a rush....things are becoming more organized as more clergy who have been immersed in Western tradition all their lives.  Vicar-General Fr Edward Hughes or the Antiochian Western Rite commision and his associates are continually working on these things...and they are committed to not end up with a "mixed" Rite and maybe correct some of those things that you mentioned like the St. Ambrose Hymnal-

The Hymnal, which I am quite familiar with-hymns/music have always inspired my personal prayer and practice outside of Liturgy and the translations of some hymns, or the particular tune selected was not the one associated with a particular hymn well known to most; musicians among us have also complained of some of the "unique" harmonies...I don't know the process which produced it, but it was put together to fill a need...but that doesn't mean it will be the Western Rite Orthodox hymnal for the next 1000 years...I know at our church, with permission of the Bishop, the priest uses the more familiar tunes, includes appropriate, well loved hymns (always with an eye to the theology it teaches) that were left out of the St. Ambrose hymnal in inserts in the weekly worship bulletin...my point is as more western orthodox clergy iron out these details...I think you can expect a Western Rite with a byzantine undertones...there is concern to try to keep things formalized and not let each parish and priest just do their own things....those committed to a true orthodox western rite work with their bishop before going of half-cocked (I hope)...and as  the Western Rite commission continues to refine things I think your fears are unfounded.

If it is part of the true western tradition...like organs and some instrumentation...it is not going to be thrown out because there are no instruments within eastern rites...you just have to trust those working to restore this new, but ancient rite and know they are do not want, in any form, a mixed bag, but a western rite that is true, authentic, and orthodox.


Just my two cents as a little church mouse...who is kind of watching this happen in "real time"; I love the Eastern rite, and have my personal peeves about western rite (but that is personal preference, which has no place in the worship of the whole Church), but I respect the knowledge, intentions and integrity of those now working in this area.[/i]

Anyone out there who knows more than I do about the Antiochian Western Rite, or if I have mispoken in error, I welcome any corrections and enlighenment.
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2010, 06:56:47 PM »

To keep tune, especially where the congregation is the choir, like in the small WR parish I've been to.

I'm not a musician so I don't know anything about keeping tunes. However I must wonder how the Church has managed to keep the tune for a thousand years or so without the instruments.

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From my limited experience, classical strings and organs just fit in the WR in ways that they may not in an Eastern rite parish without being passionate indulgence.

Huh? How so?

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Done correctly, aspect of WR worship can easily be an example of Orthodox enculturation of rite rather than something to take away. Speaking more broadly, if the Church took away everything foreign to its own culture as it evangelized different territories, Her depository of traditions would be nearly empty.

Nobody is demanding that the Church should take away every foreign influence. However there should some kind of reasonable and logical reason to change well over thousand years old tradition. I've yet to see it.

I suppose you could pair the theologically-meaty hymns with the "style", but that's a bit like a death metal band playing a love song. It just doesn't work.

It works just fine. I've loved organs and post-Schism WR liturgy since practically the first time I attended there and that got nothing to do with theological meatiness. That got quite much to do with style however.

the traditional style provides a continuous and harmonious worship with the early Church that leaves taste and style out of the equation.

And the traditional style is a cappella.  Wink

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No.  The Fathers don't complain about Arianism until the time of Arius.  They don't complain about priestesses until the late 4th and early 5th century.  A better question perhaps would have been "And the Fathers' complaints about Gnosticism would imply that the early Church was Gnostic?

To which my response would have been "Well played."

Bad examples perhaps but still you probably got my point. Fathers might argue about something even though there isn't any acute problem nearby.  If they are complaining about instruments that doesn't necessarily mean that there were instruments in the early liturgies of the Church. I've never seen any explicit mentions about instrumentally accompanied worship in the early Church. Which of course doesn't mean that there isn't any and I'd like to know if there is.

...and now we're getting the Eastern "no instruments" line.

Not Eastern but Catholic. However that's shame if Antiochians are Byzantising their WR. I'd rather see more latinizations.

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That's not part of Western rites -- modern Western rites, which are the only really legitimate ones.

What's the problem with liturgical archeology? Why post-Schism WR rites are the only really legitimate ones?
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2010, 10:16:02 PM »

Our Priest has been adamant from the beginning that the congregation IS the choir-everyone sings-.. though we started out slow, after a couple of years we are at the point everyone, right down to the youngest child (2-3 years old) can sing the gregorian liturgy and vespers and matins (psalms)offices which we have before the Divine Liturgy.

My priest is the same way with our Liturgy. It's not "the work of the people" if the people ain't workin'!  Wink

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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2010, 11:14:06 PM »

Have WR churches used work by post-schism composers, like Palestrina, Hildegard von Bingen, or Ockeghem?

I've definitely heard pieces by Bach within WR parishes, and many of the WR priests I know seem to be fans of Renaissance polyphony, although I've yet to hear it in worship.
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 09:15:34 AM »

Whenever there is a traditionalist presence in a forum or blog I can safely predict that there will be anti-choral, anti-instrumental, "all we need is chant" statements, east or west.
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 02:27:47 PM »

One of the things that drew me to E.O. is that there is no "professional" music ministry (at least in my experience) entwined with the Services. As a professional musician, I enjoy leaving my career at home & entering into Prayer "free of the distractions of the world." Although, I must sincerely confess a major fondness for Rachmanninov's choral "Vespers."
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 07:41:46 PM »

One of the things that drew me to E.O. is that there is no "professional" music ministry (at least in my experience) entwined with the Services. As a professional musician, I enjoy leaving my career at home & entering into Prayer "free of the distractions of the world." Although, I must sincerely confess a major fondness for Rachmanninov's choral "Vespers."
Wow, dude!  Ain't seen you here in a while. Grin  Good to see you back posting again.

Peace.
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 02:53:01 PM »

One of the things that drew me to E.O. is that there is no "professional" music ministry (at least in my experience) entwined with the Services. As a professional musician, I enjoy leaving my career at home & entering into Prayer "free of the distractions of the world." Although, I must sincerely confess a major fondness for Rachmanninov's choral "Vespers."
Wow, dude!  Ain't seen you here in a while. Grin  Good to see you back posting again.

Peace.
been a while.
the Eternal Chant continues...
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 03:47:25 PM »

I don't think I've ever had a chance to hear Western Rite Orthodox music as such. If it's related to other types of proper chant, then maybe I could enjoy it and pray with it. On the other hand, I have heard lots and lots of music of completely different types that I don't think belong in church. It's one of the things that led to my dissatisfaction with the church I used to attend.

I was raised as a Roman Rite Catholic. When I was a kid, at least they kept the 'folk Masses'  Sad separate from the ones with the old-fashioned music!  Cheesy Gradually, things changed. As I moved from city to city a few times, over the years, the music got worse and worse. Eventually, we were down to clap-along pop tunes from the CCM charts. Many of them were out-and-out Protestant tunes, with lyrics that, if our music advisor had been paying attention, should have been recognized for what they were! I couldn't take it anymore. I found it highly distracting from what I had hoped would be a good atmosphere for worship. I did feel bad about leaving a parish where I had quite a few friends. The people were nice, even if the music wasn't. But I couldn't pray in that church anymore.

So, one Sunday a very shy me gathered up all my gumption  Wink and walked into a Greek Orthodox Church across the road from my former parish. It was part of the way through Orthros, and the chanters were in fine form. Talk about a total difference! I was stunned, very happily so, and I've been going to the same church ever since.   Cheesy 

There were also other reasons that made me want to seek out the Orthodox Church, but I am not kidding when I say that music which was conducive to worship, was one of them.  angel
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« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2010, 03:18:17 PM »

Was just reading about organs, and apparently they were first introduced to Western Churches in the 7th Century. I would have figured it was much later...
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