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Poll
Question: Vote only if you are an Orthodox Christian! Notwithstanding your jurisdiction's policy, in your view, how should RC converts be received into the EO Church?
By statement of faith, because the RC convert has already been baptized and chrismated - 11 (25%)
By chrismation, because the convert is already a baptized Christian. The graces flowing from that baptism will increase following the convert's entry into the Church, however. - 10 (22.7%)
By chrismation, because the convert had an empty shell of a "baptism" which will now be turned into a real sacramental baptism via oikonomia. - 2 (4.5%)
By baptism, because the convert has never been baptized period. There are no sacraments outside the EO Church, and all converts should be baptized to emphasize that. - 13 (29.5%)
Other/no opinion - 8 (18.2%)
Total Voters: 44

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lubeltri
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« on: January 09, 2008, 12:44:56 PM »

I am curious to see the different opinions from EO here about this.
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 12:58:55 PM »

You may want to indicate that only EO should vote, if that is your intent.
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 01:31:57 PM »

I am OK with a poll.

I don't believe the commentary in the questions is appropriate or necessary.  Smiley

A strict "Baptism", "Chrismation", "Profession of Faith" etc. offering of selections would be sufficient, the responders could add their own commentary or reasoning in a post.

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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 01:46:53 PM »

baptism of course. why cheat yourself? Go all the way! Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 02:28:14 PM »

I am OK with a poll.

I don't believe the commentary in the questions is appropriate or necessary.  Smiley

A strict "Baptism", "Chrismation", "Profession of Faith" etc. offering of selections would be sufficient, the responders could add their own commentary or reasoning in a post.

Well, chrismation is trickier because of the empty shell/oikonomia approach. Other EO might accept non-EO baptism as-is and still require chrismation.


-----

Yes, Father Chris. This poll is only for EO.

Edited the poll to reflect this.

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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 06:17:18 PM »

Baptize!  If you're gonna do it, do it RIGHT!

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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 06:19:09 PM »

Baptize!  I was cheated on that one (although I was obedient and accepted just chrismation).
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 07:37:06 PM »

I am curious to see the different opinions from EO here about this.
*
Because there have been and still are variations on this over many centuries it is to be expected that people will have varying ideas about it.

But, when push comes to shove, the answer to your question is very simple - Catholic converts must be received as the local bishop decides.

In my own case, I must abide by the 1000 year tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church which has received Roman Catholics by either Confession or Chrismation.  I believe that it would be sinfully wilful for a Russian priest to step outside that tradition, except if he has sought and received the blessing of his bishop.

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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 07:56:13 PM »

Statement of faith.  Baptism in any Christian church should count, as long as it is done with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  And Roman confirmation is equivalent to Orthodox chrismation - it is administered by bishops or priests using Holy Chrism.  Protestant confirmation is another matter.
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 09:20:07 PM »

How should Catholics be received, well, in the manner the bishop instructs!
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 09:26:09 PM »

How should Catholics be received, well, in the manner the bishop instructs!

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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 12:19:00 AM »

Hey, if Nestorians can enter just through a statement of faith, and they are ARCH heretics, why not the Catholics as well.   Wink Grin 

I am TOTALLY joking about the heretics bit.  I hope that got across. 

Really though, we should think about this idea.  Seriously, if Nestorians were OK to enter through confession of faith, and they are considered archheretics, then why not just schizmed christian brothers? 

Just a thought. 
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 01:01:23 AM »

Statement of faith. But it's ultimately the bishop's call.
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 01:08:39 AM »

The second option seemed closest to my thoughts.  Although "other" probably would have been better.

If convert has been baptized "In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" than no baptism is really necessary.  Chrismation and a statement of faith (Do you reject the Filioque?  I do. (or something like that)etc) is what I went through when becoming Orthodox.

But, as said before, bishop's call.
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 06:28:40 AM »

If convert has been baptized "In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" than no baptism is really necessary.
*
On the whole the Orthodox adhere to the theology of Saint Cyprian of Carthage who taught us that there are no Mysteries (and that includes Baptism) outside the Church of Christ.

Irish Melkite wrote an excellent post on this, contrasting the (Orthodox) Cyprianic theology of the Mysteries with the (Roman Catholic) Augustinian theology.

If you jump over to this thread, it is message No. 18

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13357.msg185268.html#msg185268
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 10:54:07 AM »

*
On the whole the Orthodox adhere to the theology of Saint Cyprian of Carthage who taught us that there are no Mysteries (and that includes Baptism) outside the Church of Christ.

Irish Melkite wrote an excellent post on this, contrasting the (Orthodox) Cyprianic theology of the Mysteries with the (Roman Catholic) Augustinian theology.

If you jump over to this thread, it is message No. 18

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13357.msg185268.html#msg185268


Um...If that were true then there would be NO accepting of anyone back into the church.  So by virtue of the fact that people HAVE re-entered the church...your statement above is debunked. 

Sorry friend, but Augustinian theology won in this case.  If it hadn't, there would be no process of reconciliation.  Since there IS a process...it goes to prove Augustine right. 
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 11:01:49 AM »

Um...If that were true then there would be NO accepting of anyone back into the church.  So by virtue of the fact that people HAVE re-entered the church...your statement above is debunked. 

Sorry friend, but Augustinian theology won in this case.  If it hadn't, there would be no process of reconciliation.  Since there IS a process...it goes to prove Augustine right. 

The point is there is no sacraments per se outside the Church. If, on joining the Church, by profession of faith or chrismation, those mysteries are activated, fine, but this is an act of the Church.  They previously had no effect and were not sacraments per se (in their own right).

Augustine taught there were valid sacraments, but that they were illicit (i.e. had no grace). The difference is one of speculating on the status outside of the Church, but both Cyprian and Augustine would agree there is no grace imparted to the believer.
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 03:11:51 PM »

In my readings I don't remember Augustine every saying that there was no grace whatsoever outside the church.  In fact, I do remember him highly stressing that there is grace, but not necessarily "sacramental" and that's where I started loosing him.  He got into a lot of details on different kinds of grace and their efficacy. 

The HS exists outside the church.  So therefore grace exists outside the church. 

maybe we are talking about two different kinds of grace, or at least meaning 2 different things when saying the word...
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 04:34:18 PM »

I put statement of faith, as it's the tradition of the Russian church.  Abp +DMITRI chrismates RCs, though, so that's what's done at our parish unless he says differently.

I can sympathize with the "baptism only" voters, though, as the statement of faith method, while a wonderful example of taking what is good and proper already and bringing it to its fullness in the One Church, can be (and often is) grossly misunderstood as meaning that heterodox rites are definitely grace-filled in and of themselves. 
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 05:16:24 PM »


Augustine taught there were valid sacraments, but that they were illicit (i.e. had no grace). The difference is one of speculating on the status outside of the Church, but both Cyprian and Augustine would agree there is no grace imparted to the believer.
That's not technically what valid but illicit means in western thought. For a sacrament to be valid it must actually confer grace. Illicit simply means that it is done without the blessing of the Church.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2008, 03:09:22 PM »

That's not technically what valid but illicit means in western thought. For a sacrament to be valid it must actually confer grace. Illicit simply means that it is done without the blessing of the Church.

Right. Sacraments "work" ex opere operato. It is their efficacy which varies according to the circumstance and the individual soul.

A schismatic priest can consecrate a true Eucharist and a schismatic can receive that Eucharist, but it will have no efficacy for that person (assuming he is fully guilty of the sin of schism). EO sacraments can be efficacious for EO because individual EO are not personally guilty of the schism that has now existed for centuries. It might be a different story for a hardened sedevacantist, however, though objectively he is in the same state as an EO. The efficacy depends on the soul.

I don't think God is rushing around cutting off sacramental taps, so to speak. Everybody's getting the same pint of Guinness, but its black frothy goodness is better for some than for others.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2008, 03:32:25 PM »

^Post of the Month nominee!

Thank you OzGeorge!


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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2008, 03:54:17 PM »

That's not technically what valid but illicit means in western thought. For a sacrament to be valid it must actually confer grace. Illicit simply means that it is done without the blessing of the Church.

Yes, I meant that no grace was conferred on the soul; sorry for not being clear. Augustine did of course posit that there was a sacrament, only that it did not do the person any good if they were schismatic.
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2008, 03:55:12 PM »


The HS exists outside the church.  So therefore grace exists outside the church. 

maybe we are talking about two different kinds of grace, or at least meaning 2 different things when saying the word...

Yes, there is sacramental grace, which is only operative in the sacraments, and there is charismatic grace, which exists everywhere.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 06:52:14 PM »

Um...If that were true then there would be NO accepting of anyone back into the church.  So by virtue of the fact that people HAVE re-entered the church...your statement above is debunked. 

Sorry friend, but Augustinian theology won in this case.  If it hadn't, there would be no process of reconciliation.  Since there IS a process...it goes to prove Augustine right. 
*
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I was a priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church for 25 years (until I was transferred to the Russian Church Abroad in 1996.)   My Serbian bishops instructed me to receive Roman Catholics by Baptism and that is what I always did, even two Catholic priests and one nun.
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2008, 09:53:21 PM »

Right. Sacraments "work" ex opere operato. It is their efficacy which varies according to the circumstance and the individual soul.

A schismatic priest can consecrate a true Eucharist and a schismatic can receive that Eucharist, .....

I don't think God is rushing around cutting off sacramental taps, so to speak.
Dear Lubeltri,

The teaching of the Church Fathers and the Tradition is that God does cut off the sacramental taps...

Here is a patristic viewpoint from Saint Basil the Great.  Notice the typical balance of the Church Fathers - while the principle of no Sacraments and no Apostolic Succession outside the Church is clearly enunciated, Saint Basil also states very clearly that for the sake of the good of the Church "economy" may be used if it is thought necessary in the case of Baptism.


Epistle to Amphilochius (of which the "First Canon" of Saint Basil is a shorter version) 

---- "It seemed best to the ancients-I refer to Cyprian and our own Firmilian-to subject all of these-Cathari, and Encratites, and Hydroparastatae-to one vote of condemnation, because the beginning of this separation arose through schism, and those who had broken away from the Church no longer had in them the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the imparting of it failed because of the severance of continuity.

"For those who separated first had ordination from the Fathers, and through the imposition of their hands possessed the spiritual gift; but those who had been cut off, becoming laymen, possessed the power neither of baptizing nor of ordaining, being able no longer to impart to others the grace of the Holy Spirit from which they themselves had fallen away. Therefore they commanded those who had been baptized by them, as baptized by laymen, to come to the Church and be purified by the true baptism of the Church.

"But since on the whole it has seemed best to some of those in Asia that, by economy for the sake of the many, their baptism be accepted, let it be accepted."

Notice the word economy used here by Saint Basil with reference to situations when baptism is not insisted upon. Saint Athanasius also uses the word economy with reference to the reception of heretics.
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2008, 10:49:54 PM »

You left out my favourite one, being baptized with the entrails of a bull. So I was forced to choose the boring 'other'. Grin

j/k, I choose the first one, of course. Wink
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2008, 11:04:30 PM »

You left out that they shouldn't convert at all angel
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2008, 11:29:53 PM »

So, Lubeltri, are you considering entering the True Church? Cool
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2008, 12:45:50 AM »

EO sacraments can be efficacious for EO because individual EO are not personally guilty of the schism that has now existed for centuries.

But look at someone like me, lubeltri.  I have studied the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism quite a bit.  Before I became Orthodox, for some time I considered joining the Latin Church and rejected the idea.  I consciously oppose the notion that the bishop of Rome is the leader of the Church.   I applaud the position taken by St. Mark of Ephesus at Florence.   Would you not have to say that, according to the Latin Church, I was being deliberately schismatic in this behaviour, and hence, according to your understanding of how sacraments work, that they would not be efficaciuous for me?
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2008, 07:40:48 PM »

*
Sorry Serb, but Saint Cyprian still reigns! 


I was a priest of the Serbian Orthodox Church for 25 years (until I was transferred to the Russian Church Abroad in 1996.)   My Serbian bishops instructed me to receive Roman Catholics by Baptism and that is what I always did, even two Catholic priests and one nun.

LOL!!  No offense my friend, but I am just not sure that Cyprian's thoughts truly reign, because we do have confession and repentance.  Cyprian had no room for either. 

Also in terms of serbian bishops...let's not even start on that one.  If you would like a more indepth clarification on that one PM me, i'd be MORE than happy to enlighten you. 
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2008, 09:33:40 PM »

LOL!!  No offense my friend, but I am just not sure that Cyprian's thoughts truly reign, because we do have confession and repentance.  Cyprian had no room for either.
*
No understand.  Saint Cyprian received back into the Church those who had departed into heresy.  That involved repentance and confession.
Quote
Also in terms of serbian bishops...let's not even start on that one.  If you would like a more indepth clarification on that one PM me, i'd be MORE than happy to enlighten you. 
*
Fair enough.  Use the PM system to write to me in private.  I'm curious.
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 12:05:51 PM »

*
No understand.  Saint Cyprian received back into the Church those who had departed into heresy.  That involved repentance and confession.*


Where?  I must have missed that text or paragraph...whatever it may be...
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 10:18:03 PM »

I chose not to vote in this because I don't think that my opinion matters one bit. Whatever the bishop decides is the right thing.  This isn't a matter of speculation for lay people or even priests, really.  In my diocese of the OCA, Catholics are received through chrismation, and the reasoning given is the "empty shell."  Officially, the practice for everyone except Catholics is to baptize them, but I know of parishes that chrismate some Protestants for whatever reason.  I was Episcopalian before becoming Orthodox and I was received through baptism and chrismation. 
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 10:23:18 PM »

Where?  I must have missed that text or paragraph...whatever it may be...
*
It's more than a text or a paragraph.  Saint Cyprian wrote a whole book called "De Lapsis" (Concerning the Lapsed) and it is about receiving back into the Church those who had fallen away under fear of persecution.
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2008, 10:09:21 AM »

Correct.  I have definitely read the text.  Maybe it was a poor translation, or maybe I totally missed it, but I didn't find what you were referencing to earlier: 
*
No understand.  Saint Cyprian received back into the Church those who had departed into heresy.  That involved repentance and confession.*


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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2008, 12:42:30 PM »

But look at someone like me, lubeltri.  I have studied the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism quite a bit.  Before I became Orthodox, for some time I considered joining the Latin Church and rejected the idea.  I consciously oppose the notion that the bishop of Rome is the leader of the Church.   I applaud the position taken by St. Mark of Ephesus at Florence.   Would you not have to say that, according to the Latin Church, I was being deliberately schismatic in this behaviour, and hence, according to your understanding of how sacraments work, that they would not be efficaciuous for me?


I do not know the answer to that, Pravo. Because EO today are not personally guilty of the schism of long ago does not mean they are not personally guilty of a schismatic spirit today. I think the anti-Catholicism found in some EO circles is sinful. Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

However, I do not have a window into men's souls and cannot judge them. I don't know your state or how efficacious the sacraments will be to you. You are in schism, of course---all we can say is that the sacraments can be efficacious to you, depending on the state of your soul (which is something nobody can judge).
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2008, 12:44:30 PM »

So, Lubeltri, are you considering entering the True Church? Cool

The only way that is possible is if I step out the door and walk back in!  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2008, 12:48:05 PM »

My "Other" vote means...it's solely the bishop's call, and even that possibly by individual case or general rule, again, at his call.
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2008, 01:13:05 PM »

Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

It is not anti-Catholic to know and believe that Holy Orthdoxy is the one, true, Church of Jesus Christ. How can an Orthodox Catholic believer be anti-Catholic when the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church?
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« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2008, 01:18:16 PM »

It is not anti-Catholic to know and believe that Holy Orthdoxy is the one, true, Church of Jesus Christ. How can an Orthodox Catholic believer be anti-Catholic when the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church?
I think lubeltri is a Branch Theorist. You know: "Two Lungs" and all that....
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« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2008, 03:12:27 PM »

It is not anti-Catholic to know and believe that Holy Orthdoxy is the one, true, Church of Jesus Christ. How can an Orthodox Catholic believer be anti-Catholic when the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church?

I do not equate anti-Catholicism with believing that only EO is the One True ChurchTM. That's an error, but it isn't necesarily anti-Catholic (meaning anti-RC). Anti-Catholicism goes beyond that. You don't need me to give examples of it.
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« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2008, 03:13:47 PM »

I do not equate anti-Catholicism with believing that only EO is the One True ChurchTM. That's an error, but it isn't necesarily anti-Catholic (meaning anti-RC). Anti-Catholicism goes beyond that. You don't need me to give examples of it.

Sorry, you lost me.  Undecided
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« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2008, 03:16:38 PM »

I think lubeltri is a Branch Theorist. You know: "Two Lungs" and all that....

I'm not, actually. IMO, the Two Lungs refer to the Eastern and Western traditions. I believe the ECs well represent the Eastern lung. The Eastern Churches in schism from Rome are also bearers of the Eastern tradition, though less fully than the ECs.
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« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2008, 03:20:48 PM »

Sorry, you lost me.  Undecided

In other words, when I wrote of anti-Catholicism, I wasn't referring to all EO who believe in EO exclusivity as the Church. That doesn't make an EO an anti-Catholic. The anti-Catholic strains in contemporary EO go beyond that, making hostility to the West or the Catholic Church almost part of their identity.
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« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2008, 03:40:54 PM »

In other words, when I wrote of anti-Catholicism, I wasn't referring to all EO who believe in EO exclusivity as the Church. That doesn't make an EO an anti-Catholic. The anti-Catholic strains in contemporary EO go beyond that, making hostility to the West or the Catholic Church almost part of their identity.
Well, I have seen the uncharitable polemics swing both ways. Each side is zealous for their Church. People can sling mud all day long--heck, many protestants are "anti" anything RC or Orthodox. We can disagree, but we should not hurl insults.

Personally, I see doctrinal innovation (I know you call it development) that has crept into the RC Church over the centuries. So for me, the Catholic Church has much truth...the protestants have some truth...and Holy Orthodoxy has the fulness of truth. And the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is that Church which retains the fulness of truth.

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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2008, 12:01:35 AM »

I do not know the answer to that, Pravo. Because EO today are not personally guilty of the schism of long ago does not mean they are not personally guilty of a schismatic spirit today. I think the anti-Catholicism found in some EO circles is sinful. Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

However, I do not have a window into men's souls and cannot judge them. I don't know your state or how efficacious the sacraments will be to you. You are in schism, of course---all we can say is that the sacraments can be efficacious to you, depending on the state of your soul (which is something nobody can judge).

I think you'll have to admit that, from your point of view, though you do not know the state of my soul, I may effectively be without sacraments.  I don't hate the Catholic Church, but I strongly deny the claim of the Pope to universal jurisdiction, plus I believe all the other things I've already mentioned before.  Surely this must be the essence of schismatic behaviour from the Catholic standpoint.    Moreover, you have already stated here that you think that there may well be quite a number of Orthodox with a "schismatic spirit" out there today.  So this means that you  believe that there are EO people who effectively have no sacraments at all.  In the end, how is this in any way different from the belief current among a significant number of Orthodox that the Latin Church has no sacramental grace?  You have claimed to find this a "hard saying" that was one of the reasons why you chose Rome over Orthodoxy, and yet here you are espousing what is essentially the same belief yourself, albeit in a different guise.
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2008, 12:13:01 AM »

The anti-Catholic strains in contemporary EO go beyond that, making hostility to the West or the Catholic Church almost part of their identity.

This is your opinion.  It is true of some Orthodox, but it is not true of all of them.   I have personally found myself going days or even weeks at a time without thinking of the Catholic Church in any way, be it negative or positive.   At times, I find myself thinking very negative things about Catholicism because of (what I see as) the erroneous and innovative ecclesiology its members sometimes push on the Orthodox these days, while not accepting that there might be a different way of looking at the nature of the Church, a way that even some of its adherents still partly espouse themselves.  At other times, I find myself appreciating the friendships I've had with Catholic people over the years, and being grateful for what they taught me, and appreciating elements in western tradition. 

Ironically, however, aren't you at least in part defining your belief in Catholicism through your opposition to Orthodox stances on ecclesiology?  How is this different from certain Orthodox definining themselves in oppostion to Catholic teaching?
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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2008, 12:29:30 AM »

I'm not, actually. IMO, the Two Lungs refer to the Eastern and Western traditions. I believe the ECs well represent the Eastern lung. The Eastern Churches in schism from Rome are also bearers of the Eastern tradition, though less fully than the ECs.
Now you've really lost me.
So when you say:
Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.
So this "One Church" you believe gets attacked by "anti-Catholic" rhetoric is the Church under the current Pope? In other words, "those who are anti-Catholic are anti-Catholic......"   Well duh!
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2008, 01:00:19 AM »

I do not know the answer to that, Pravo. Because EO today are not personally guilty of the schism of long ago does not mean they are not personally guilty of a schismatic spirit today. I think the anti-Catholicism found in some EO circles is sinful. Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

However, I do not have a window into men's souls and cannot judge them. I don't know your state or how efficacious the sacraments will be to you. You are in schism, of course---all we can say is that the sacraments can be efficacious to you, depending on the state of your soul (which is something nobody can judge).
Lubeltri,

I don't understand why any Catholic would be angry over the Orthodox doubts as to the validity of your sacraments.  The majority of Orthodox would say that there can be no episcopate outside the Church and without an episcopate there can be no sacraments.  This is the teaching of the Fathers whom we both share from the first millennium.

Now if Catholics get upset at the Orthodox doubts, and even denial, of Catholic Sacraments, the Catholics need to turn the spotlight back on themselves.  The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.

Why is it acceptable for you to state that so unequivocally and yet be unwilling to accept that other Churches may have made similar determinations about Roman Catholic sacraments?
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2008, 01:18:49 PM »

This is your opinion.  It is true of some Orthodox, but it is not true of all of them.   

Ironically, however, aren't you at least in part defining your belief in Catholicism through your opposition to Orthodox stances on ecclesiology?  How is this different from certain Orthodox definining themselves in oppostion to Catholic teaching?

I never wrote it was true of all Orthodox. Try to read my words more carefully. But I do believe it is a serious problem in some EO circles.

I have not based my belief in Catholicism on deficiencies in Orthodoxy, even partially. I don't have any hostility to Orthodoxy. I have no bone to pick. I was even part of the OCF at my university. To be honest, I am still surprised I did not end up EO, considering my interests and experiences growing up.
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2008, 01:22:28 PM »

So when you say:So this "One Church" you believe gets attacked by "anti-Catholic" rhetoric is the Church under the current Pope? In other words, "those who are anti-Catholic are anti-Catholic......"   Well duh!

Being a non-Catholic who disagrees with Catholic distinctives or even considers Catholicism without grace does not necessarily make you an anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is a separate phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-catholic
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »

Lubeltri,

I don't understand why any Catholic would be angry over the Orthodox doubts as to the validity of your sacraments.  The majority of Orthodox would say that there can be no episcopate outside the Church and without an episcopate there can be no sacraments.  This is the teaching of the Fathers whom we both share from the first millennium.

Now if Catholics get upset at the Orthodox doubts, and even denial, of Catholic Sacraments, the Catholics need to turn the spotlight back on themselves.  The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.

Why is it acceptable for you to state that so unequivocally and yet be unwilling to accept that other Churches may have made similar determinations about Roman Catholic sacraments?

We do not dispute Anglican baptism. That is a HUGE difference from your point of view.

You see, to us, if you don't accept that we have been baptized, you effectively don't accept that we are Christians. I'm not angry about it, though (as I have said before) I consider it seriously erroneous.
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2008, 01:45:19 PM »

Being a non-Catholic who disagrees with Catholic distinctives or even considers Catholicism without grace does not necessarily make you an anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is a separate phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-catholic
Ah, the Gospel according to wiki.....
Doesn't the Orthodox Church "discriminate" against Catholics by excluding them from Communion? Doesn't that make us "anti-Catholic" according to this definition?
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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2008, 02:19:08 PM »

Ah, the Gospel according to wiki.....
Doesn't the Orthodox Church "discriminate" against Catholics by excluding them from Communion? Doesn't that make us "anti-Catholic" according to this definition?

No.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2008, 03:56:36 PM »

The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.


Yes, in Apostolicae Curae and there were advisors to the then pope who did not support this.  I'll have to look on the shelves for the book I have that that.  It has some interesting things.
 
And the Anglicans answered in Saepius Officio. (need I say that the Archbishops of Canterbury and York did not umm  agree with the Bishop of Rome?  Meaning no offense.)

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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2008, 04:17:58 PM »

Each circumstance should be evaluated separately.  For many, Chrismation would be appropriate but others Baptism. 
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« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2008, 01:15:47 AM »

Try to read my words more carefully.

Try to use a less patronising tone.  I read them carefully enough.  It's pretty clear from the wording that you believe it to be a prevalent "problem."


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« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2008, 06:27:36 PM »

Try to use a less patronising tone.  I read them carefully enough.  It's pretty clear from the wording that you believe it to be a prevalent "problem."


And it is! You don't need Catholics to tell you that. You'll find EO brethren who recognize it as a serious problem.

I know one EO who has told me that he didn't become EO to stay Protestant, but he feels that way often in some EO circles. I've seen my share of it. If you want to pretend it doesn't exist, feel free to. Queen Victoria did the same about lesbianism. Smiley

-

As for my patronizing tone, it was not meant to be. You accused me of painting all Orthodox with the anti-Catholic brush. I did no such thing. I hope I wasn't being too charitable in assuming you simply did not read my words carefully.
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« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2008, 07:46:21 PM »

And it is! You don't need Catholics to tell you that. You'll find EO brethren who recognize it as a serious problem.

I know one EO who has told me that he didn't become EO to stay Protestant, but he feels that way often in some EO circles.
I know that this is not the case in the parishes in my country where "ethnics" predominate, but I believe it can be that way in the US where in some parishes and missions everyone from the priest down comes from an Evangelical background.  The long term antidote to this is stronger contact with their mother Churches and exposure to the tradition.   In the short term an acquaintance with the local Russian parishes may help.
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