Author Topic: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"  (Read 3705 times)

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Offline prodromas

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"Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« on: January 08, 2008, 01:50:20 AM »
I was just curious when the Eastern church started to refer to itself as Orthodox and how the Non-Chaledonians referred to themselves as Oriental Orthodox and when the Western church referred to itself as Roman Catholic?
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 02:09:55 AM »
A lot of this is based around the English language.  For example, in Italian, the Roman Catholic Church is merely the Chiesa cattolica.  To distinguish the two communions with the words Oriental and Eastern would be impossible since Orientale is used for both.  I believe the term Roman Catholic was formulated to differentiate "English Catholics" from those in communion with Rome in english speaking regions.  As far as EO and OO go, I truly have no idea.
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 11:29:07 AM »
Hello,

The term Roman Catholic was originally used by Anglicans as a pejorative term and to bolster their claims of catholicity of their Anglican "Catholic" Church. This is only found in the English language and has evolved in the hundreds of years since its inception from a slur to an authentic descriptor (though still one only found in English).
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 12:03:24 PM »
I was just curious when the Eastern church started to refer to itself as Orthodox and how the Non-Chaledonians referred to themselves as Oriental Orthodox and when the Western church referred to itself as Roman Catholic?

From what I can understand, the term "Orthodox" was used from the earliest times throughout the Christian world by those Christians who wished to distinguish themselves from various heretical groups, or just as a means of identification.  It was only later in the West (though I don't know at what point exactly) that the term "Catholic" came to be used instead.  IIRC, the Oriental Orthodox use this designation just as a kind of convenience, just like the Eastern Orthodox do, in order to make identification easier for outsiders.  Both the OO and the EO consider themselves to be simply "Orthodox".  Of course, the Roman Church also considers herself to be the Orthodox Church, but stresses its belief in its catholic component instead.  (And, I might add, its own particular understanding of the term, ie "universal.")

"Byzantine" Greeks actually considered themselves to be Romans, of course.  Orthodox people in various parts of the Mediterranean basin still refer to themselves as "Roman Orthodox" today.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 12:09:04 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 12:05:56 PM »
The term Roman Catholic was originally used by Anglicans as a pejorative term and to bolster their claims of catholicity of their Anglican "Catholic" Church. This is only found in the English language and has evolved in the hundreds of years since its inception from a slur to an authentic descriptor (though still one only found in English).

I think you are right.  However, the term "Roman Catholic" is also used in French in Canada.  I presume that this is an anglicism.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 12:10:34 PM »
Hello,

The term Roman Catholic was originally used by Anglicans as a pejorative term and to bolster their claims of catholicity of their Anglican "Catholic" Church. This is only found in the English language and has evolved in the hundreds of years since its inception from a slur to an authentic descriptor (though still one only found in English).

Actually, it exists in Arabic: ruum katholiik (katholiik means only Latin, it doesn't have any connotation of being universal in Arabic).

The use of the term Orthodox among the OO dates from the schisms with the submission of part of them to Rome.  Ironically, EO was (and is) referred to as ruum.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 12:12:57 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 12:19:58 PM »
Actually, it exists in Arabic: ruum katholiik (katholiik means only Latin, it doesn't have any connotation of being universal in Arabic).

Interesting.  It seems that this represents an entirely different evolution of the term "Roman Catholic" compared to the one that we are used to in English!

Quote
The use of the term Orthodox among the OO dates from the schisms with the submission of part of them to Rome. 

Well, it might have been emphasized more after this, but I don't think I agree with you insofar as your statement implies that they only began to call themselves "Orthodox" at this point. 

Quote
Ironically, EO was (and is) referred to as ruum.

This is just what I was referring to in one of my posts.  It's essentially used as an identification with the "Byzantine" (ie Roman) empire.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 01:00:52 PM »
From what I can understand, the term "Orthodox" was used from the earliest times throughout the Christian world by those Christians who wished to distinguish themselves from various heretical groups, or just as a means of identification.  It was only later in the West (though I don't know at what point exactly) that the term "Catholic" came to be used instead.  IIRC, the Oriental Orthodox use this designation just as a kind of convenience, just like the Eastern Orthodox do, in order to make identification easier for outsiders.  Both the OO and the EO consider themselves to be simply "Orthodox".  Of course, the Roman Church also considers herself to be the Orthodox Church, but stresses its belief in its catholic component instead.  (And, I might add, its own particular understanding of the term, ie "universal.")

"Byzantine" Greeks actually considered themselves to be Romans, of course.  Orthodox people in various parts of the Mediterranean basin still refer to themselves as "Roman Orthodox" today.

From Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome by Cyril Mango:
Quote
'It is Our Will, proclaims an imperial enactment of the year 380 that was later placed at the head of Justinian's Code,
that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practise that religion which the divine Peter the apostle transmitted to the Romans...We shall believe in the single Diety of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit under the guise of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. We command that those persons who follow this law shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians (emphasis added). The rest whom we adjudge demented and insane [dementes vesanoque], shall sustain the infamy attached to heretical dogmas... Cod.Theod., xvi. 1. 2.; Cod.Just., i. 1.1.

Later mango goes on to explain that originally 'orthodoxy' (note small 'o') meant right belief against the Arian heresy but later "Orthodoxy" meant the Catholic Church untainted by monophysitism, Arianism, monotheletism, or iconoclasm. The terms Orthodox and Catholic becoming synonymous.
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 03:46:53 PM »
Hello,

I think you are right.  However, the term "Roman Catholic" is also used in French in Canada.  I presume that this is an anglicism.

Makes sense as Canada has been a commonwealth of England for centuries (are they still officially so?) - despite Quebec. :P
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 03:47:54 PM »
Hello,

Actually, it exists in Arabic: ruum katholiik (katholiik means only Latin, it doesn't have any connotation of being universal in Arabic).

It's all Arabic to me. ;D
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 12:54:30 AM »
From Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome by Cyril Mango:
Later mango goes on to explain that originally 'orthodoxy' (note small 'o') meant right belief against the Arian heresy but later "Orthodoxy" meant the Catholic Church untainted by monophysitism, Arianism, monotheletism, or iconoclasm. The terms Orthodox and Catholic becoming synonymous.

Yes, even if you were Monophysitie, Arian, monothelete or iconoclast, you claimed to be Orthodox and Catholic.

Well, it might have been emphasized more after this, but I don't think I agree with you insofar as your statement implies that they only began to call themselves "Orthodox" at this point. 

No, they were calling themselves (rightly so) that and "Catholic" from the beginning.  The use of Orthodox in contradiction to "kathuuliik" only dates from that time, as the submtters were also Coptic, Syrian and Armenian.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 12:58:15 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline EmperorConstantine

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 12:51:19 AM »
Hello,

The term Roman Catholic was originally used by Anglicans as a pejorative term and to bolster their claims of catholicity of their Anglican "Catholic" Church. This is only found in the English language and has evolved in the hundreds of years since its inception from a slur to an authentic descriptor (though still one only found in English).
I believe that the case was similar for Martin Luther and his crowd.

Luther believe that he was still "Catholic" however the one's under the pope also claimed to be "Catholic".  Thus, the Roman adjective was added.  I asked a number of Lutherans about this and a topic similar to it.  Most said they prefer to be called "Evangelical Catholic".

Offline Athanasios

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 07:02:47 PM »
Hello,

I believe that the case was similar for Martin Luther and his crowd.

Luther believe that he was still "Catholic" however the one's under the pope also claimed to be "Catholic".  Thus, the Roman adjective was added.  I asked a number of Lutherans about this and a topic similar to it.  Most said they prefer to be called "Evangelical Catholic".

Seeing how Luther spoke German and not English, is there a German word for Roman Catholic?
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Offline EmperorConstantine

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2008, 10:46:29 PM »
Hello,

Seeing how Luther spoke German and not English, is there a German word for Roman Catholic?
The German word for Catholic is "Katholich" so I believe that Roman Catholic in German would be something like "Romisch-katholish" with an umlaut over the o in Romisch.

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Re: "Eastern" "Roman" and "Oriental"
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2008, 04:47:30 AM »
Yes, in Arabic we distinguish the Orthodox by calling the OO's Orthodox and the EO's Roman Orthodox (ruum orsodox)

I think the difference between "oriental" and "eastern" came as a convenience at some WCC meeting.  The name Oriental Orthodox is something that came out of the mid-20th Century.  We always have called ourselves "Eastern Orthodox" to be distinguished from the "relatively Western" Greeks and Romans.
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