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Author Topic: Latin Catholics Vs. Eastern Catholics  (Read 18822 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2008, 10:17:41 AM »

Laka, I find it very refreshing to hear from an Eastern Catholic who isn't completely Latinized.

Neil, I used to post on the byzcath forum, so you might be remembering me from there.
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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2008, 01:05:03 PM »

PJ,

I do remember you form Byzcath. I haven't posted there in a while, not much going on there.

It's easier not to be latinized if your a Melkite (sad, really).
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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2008, 02:19:21 PM »

Because of this, Eastern Catholics cannot accept the Western forumlation of Mary being free from sin (but in the East this is because she never sinned, not because she couldn't sin. She Could have),

We also believe she could have, but she chose not to. The Immaculate Conception didn't turn her into a robot, it in fact did the opposite: It freed her will so she could choose never to sin (can't be done with a fallen nature). She was, in effect, made to be like Eve before the Fall. She is the New Eve. While Eve chose to sin and fell, Mary chose not to sin and freely said "Fiat" to the Lord's will.

So, yes, she could have sinned.
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2008, 02:23:49 PM »

Purgatory is a Western theologumen. The East remembers her dead in a 40 days memorial and other prayers. We pray for our dead. These prayers are obviously efficaious. However, The Christian East stresses (and Orientale Lumen recognized) that theosis and deification takes places here and now, not only in the life to come. This is not the same as redemptive suffering and purgatory (which are Western).

We believe it takes place here too, of course. That's what penances and devotions are for. They reduce purgatory "time" precisely because they move us deeper in theosis while we are still living. The more theosis during your earthly life, the less purification needed at death.

So I agree with you that East and West have the same Catholic faith, just expressed in different language.
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2008, 02:52:09 PM »

We believe it takes place here too, of course. That's what penances and devotions are for. They reduce purgatory "time" precisely because they move us deeper in theosis while we are still living. The more theosis during your earthly life, the less purification needed at death.

So I agree with you that East and West have the same Catholic faith, just expressed in different language.

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2008, 02:59:05 PM »

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.

References for this claim, please?
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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2008, 03:24:11 PM »

References for this claim, please?

No references are needed. Why would man need purgatory if man becomes the image of God?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2008, 03:40:08 PM »

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2008, 03:46:58 PM »

Dear ialmisry (re: CAF),

I was told that I should kow tow a party line that I will not subscribe to, nor do I see it in the fine print of the rules that I have to buy legalism's take on this, or other things.  It's Mr. Keating's dime, but I'm not for sale.

You see now that make sense to me. What I have difficulty understanding is why a lot of Orthodox seem to prefer conversation with ultra-Latin, ultramontane, even anti-Orthodox, Catholics.

(To be fair, I've also never been able to understand why a lot of Catholics avoid Orthodox as one might avoid the Plague, preferring dialogue with Protestants.)

-Peter.
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2008, 03:48:24 PM »

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.

Your correct, but stating that one needs a purgatory bath implies that one hasn't achieved Theosis in this life.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2008, 03:56:03 PM »

Your correct, but stating that one needs a purgatory bath implies that one hasn't achieved Theosis in this life.

Well, quite simply, I believe that theosis doesn't suddenly stop when we die but continues after death.
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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2008, 04:00:15 PM »

Well, quite simply, I believe that theosis doesn't suddenly stop when we die but continues after death.
-Peter.

It does, But If our Saints have bin sanctified in this life why do they need purgatory? Is a continuing Theosis a byproduct of being tortured?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2008, 04:20:13 PM »

Is a continuing Theosis a byproduct of being tortured?

Huh?
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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2008, 04:24:01 PM »

No references are needed. Why would man need purgatory if man becomes the image of God?

Not everybody goes through Purgatory.

Read up on our teaching before you pontificate on it.
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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2008, 04:29:25 PM »

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

The question I have is are they gauranteed salvation once they enter purgatory?  Many easterners would say that hell is the cleansing place.  Not that there is a place in hell that is devoted to cleansing but that hell is equivalent to purgatory.  So they would not make a distinction between those who are damned and those who are in purgatory.
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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »

Not everybody goes through Purgatory.

Read up on our teaching before you pontificate on it.

I extend the same to you. Read up on Orthodoxy. What makes you think there is continued life after death for everyone?
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2008, 04:56:56 PM »

I extend the same to you. Read up on Orthodoxy. What makes you think there is continued life after death for everyone?

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.

You just have.
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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2008, 05:16:53 PM »

You just have.

Can you refer to one saint who has made such a claim?  Or even a current bishop.
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »

... I used to post on the byzcath forum, so you might be remembering me from there.
Gosh, you look just like Bruce Willis!  Shocked
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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2008, 05:48:53 PM »

Can you refer to one saint who has made such a claim?  Or even a current bishop.

I'll give you both Wink

His Eminence John Zizioulas Metropolitan of Pergamon.



Quote
The only one that is uncreated and has no beginning is God, The Holy Trinity. Everything else that has its beginning in time is created. Uncreated has it's ontological foundation in being, meaning He is Life, and the only Giver of Life. Everything else that is created has no ontological foundation in itself. But because everything was created out of unbeing (ex nihilo). Unbeing is always present in created as a threat. So everything that has its beginning might have an end, meaning it is finite (limited). Because all that is created, has no ontological foundation in being it must be in communion with someone who has/is, that is only God. With free will we can decide to be or not to be in communion with the uncreated. But death, or end, is something that goes together with creation ex nihilo.



 St Athanasius writes that:



Quote
Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ; and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore upon men who as animals, were essentially impermanent,He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked- namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in a limited degree, they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise.   
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2008, 05:57:02 PM »

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.
You just have.
I am surprised at this comment.

I suppose that since anything is possible with God, absolute and complete annihilation is not out of the question...but I have not encountered speculation on that possibility before. Perhaps I should pay more attention...  Undecided
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2008, 06:23:00 PM »

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.
I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2008, 07:10:53 PM »

Hello,

I wonder just how much of this debate is a result of ethnocentrism and cultural chauvinism?
My guess is that it is the majority....

I just read a good article on this by a Romanian Catholic Hieromonk. He stated that a major problem with East-West relations is a distrust and fear of foreign cultures.
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« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2008, 07:17:15 PM »

Hello,

I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.

As for deification, the process as we become more and more god-like - though we never complete the process since there is an infinite gap between God and man - could very well be. I don't see anything in Catholic theology to preclude such a process. There is nothing defined as to what Heaven will be like. We know we will see God as He is according to Saint John the Apostle, which Catholicism gives the name of the Beatific Vision to, but what the exact nature of this will be - we don't know nor has it been defined.

Purgatory is not the making of someone god-like - at least not in the sense of theosis or deification. Purgatory is a transitional state after death for those who have imperfections on their souls. Nothing impure can stand before God according to Saint John the Apostle, but most of us are not very pure when we die - but we haven't been evil enough to warrant going to hell for eternity. So we go through a purgative process to become pure - so that we can stand before God.
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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2008, 09:08:09 PM »

I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.

Theosis is the actualization of the image of God, the dynamic of living out the likeness of God by acquiring His energies.  Since His energies do not contain His essence, the dynamic is never ending.
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2008, 11:54:13 PM »

Gosh, you look just like Bruce Willis!  Shocked

Why thank you! I wish I had a beard like yours.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

Some people describe Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics by saying "We mean the same thing, we just say it differently." I think that's an over-generalization.

Obviously, there are some times when we mean the same thing but say it differently; but there are other times when we disagree about something but are willing to be in full communion with each other anyways. (E.g. ECs saying "7 ecumenical councils" vs. Latin Catholics saying "21 ecumenical councils". See also my post this morning about  Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception.)

My $0.02.
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« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2008, 12:11:58 AM »

Hello Athanasios,
As for deification, the process as we become more and more god-like - though we never complete the process since there is an infinite gap between God and man - could very well be. I don't see anything in Catholic theology to preclude such a process...
Well, that's a relief!

Well, not really  Wink , I can understand what you mean though. My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways. Anthony Dragani (on the EWTN website) is one who famously confuses the two separate ideas into one doctrine with two tails, or two heads...or whatever.

Therefore I see no reason why a Roman Catholic could not accept the doctrine of Divinization, as separate and distinct from the doctrine of Purgatory.

As for the other details of your post, I acknowledge that you posted them and understand them while I disagree. That's OK, I am not in the mood to go into it, you have a set of beliefs and I do too, that's enough for me right now. I just wanted to touch upon this one point above.

In Christ,
Michael
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« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2008, 12:36:30 AM »


Some people describe Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics by saying "We mean the same thing, we just say it differently." I think that's an over-generalization.

Obviously, there are some times when we mean the same thing but say it differently; but there are other times when we disagree about something but are willing to be in full communion with each other anyways. (E.g. ECs saying "7 ecumenical councils" vs. Latin Catholics saying "21 ecumenical councils". See also my post this morning about  Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception.)

My $0.02.
-Peter.
I see your point as far as the Roman Communion is concerned.

I think sometimes it may even conceivable for Roman Catholics and Orthodox to have a common belief and express it differently, I am pretty sure, but I can't think of any good examples to illustrate the point.

Certainly I reject the "Purgatory is Theosis" theory.

The problem is...if we continually express doctrines differently, how can we ever be sure they really are the same? Sooner or later we will have to find a common language for them, or presume that they are not actually the same after all.

Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...). The problem for me is, he chooses to affirm the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as a Gold Standard all Catholics (and presumably Orthodox) must accept. I would much rather he picked the Orthodox understanding!  Grin We'd get along much better.  Roll Eyes

Michael
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« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2008, 02:15:05 AM »


I think sometimes it may even conceivable for Roman Catholics and Orthodox to have a common belief and express it differently, I am pretty sure, but I can't think of any good examples to illustrate the point.

Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Octave of Christmas/Annunciation of the Holy Theotokos.

Apostles Creed/Nicene Creed. 

Masses for the Dead/Commemoration in DL.
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« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2008, 12:24:53 PM »

My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways. Anthony Dragani (on the EWTN website) is one who famously confuses the two separate ideas into one doctrine with two tails, or two heads...or whatever.

Hesychios (Michael),

Thanks for your various thoughts.

I have been giving this matter much thought but haven't come up with very much to say.

In my own life, Dragani helped me to realize that latinization (especially coerced latinization) of EC Churches is not just a problem with respect to liturgy, but also with respect to theology.

But looking at his writing, I do have to admit that some of his statements are problematic. For example, the last paragraph of the "Purgatory" section says:

Quote from:  Anthony Dragani
Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point.

which I think is misleading at best.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2008, 03:44:46 PM »

Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...).

Absolutely! It's bad enough that Catholics don't all say the same Creed; it would be worse if we didn't proclaim the same Faith.

But I believe that we Catholics do all adhere to the same Faith, notwithstanding our disagreements. To go back to one of the examples I gave yesterday (Papal Infallibility):

Does that mean that the pope can exercise 'his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians' whenever he wants?

Some have certainly thought so. Even Cardinal Newman said that whether or not a papal statement was ex cathedra was "mainly a matter of intention" -- pretty much ruling out the possibility of a pope thinking he was making an ex cathedra statement when he wasn't.

I, for one, believe that Cardinal Newman's statement was incorrect, but I don't believe it was heresy. In other words, I believe that Cardinal Newman and I both proclaim the same Faith, despite our disagreement.

That's all for now.
God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2008, 04:29:31 PM »



Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...). The problem for me is, he chooses to affirm the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as a Gold Standard all Catholics (and presumably Orthodox) must accept. I would much rather he picked the Orthodox understanding!  Grin We'd get along much better.  Roll Eyes

Michael
Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard. I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.
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« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2008, 09:24:13 PM »

And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard. I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.

Papist,

I give you an A+ for honesty.

-Peter.

P.S. This seems like kind of a historic moment. Not on the order of Martin Luther calling James "an epistle of straw", of course, but historic nevertheless.
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« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2008, 10:53:54 AM »

Hello,

My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways.

I agree. There are many things that are the same thing expressed in differing ways - but Purgatory and Theosis are not the same thing. I would venture a guess (though I haven't given it too much thought) that the corresponding viewpoint of Theosis is the Beatific Vision.


Therefore I see no reason why a Roman Catholic could not accept the doctrine of Divinization, as separate and distinct from the doctrine of Purgatory.

I don't either.
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« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2008, 10:54:52 AM »

Hello,

I have a question about terms.

Are Theosis, Deification, and Divinization different terms for the same thing?
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« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2008, 05:07:24 PM »

Hello,

I have a question about terms.

Are Theosis, Deification, and Divinization different terms for the same thing?
From what little I understand about them I beleive they are.
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« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2008, 11:43:55 PM »

Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard.
I didn't state that you are popular  Roll Eyes, well, nobody hates you.  Grin

I respect you for the strong stand you take, supporting your beliefs as you do. I also can agree that their is only one Truth. Many Orthodox feel just as strongly that we proclaim different Faiths (and for essentially the same reasons you might give).

I just don't agree with your choices...had you been Orthodox like your ancestors, I think we would get along great.
I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.
This is where I think you have spun out of orbit.

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

The parts of your Communion which exhibit strong traces of it's former Orthodoxy are mostly clustered in the Byzantine-rite Particular churches and to some extent in the other Eastern Catholic Particular churches, but are a distinct minority even there. There is some trace in the Latin church, perhaps more in evidence in the monastic traditions to some extent...Cassian's children and Carmel's children...but it has been mostly suppressed over time.

-A- Your idea is apparently that, because the church should think with one mind and speak with one voice, the Ultramontanist theory and Latin constructs should prevail everywhere. I suppose then, when you see Orthodox theology stubbornly present among the Eastern Catholics you would like to see it go away, suppressed somehow perhaps. I imagine it can seem like the camel's nose under the tent!

Your actions on the internet have clearly shown a strong desire to discredit and silence the traditional Faith of the Eastern Catholics.

-B- My idea is that...because the church should think with one mind and speak with one voice, the Orthodox theology should prevail everywhere. When I see Orthodox thinking flourishing in certain corners of the Roman Catholic Communion I am encouraged. I really hope that it IS the camel's nose under the tent, because the best way for us to restore communion and be ONE again is to come to a common understanding. In other words, I want to see the Roman Catholic Communion open up to it's own ancient Orthodox roots, and that is not going to happen if every time a Roman Catholic happens to come to an Orthodox understanding of his Faith, he leaves it for Holy Orthodoxy.

He needs to bloom where he is planted, his Orthodoxy should...ideally...flourish and grow right there...and it should spread, putting in deep roots among the people, and the bishops and Cardinals of your church. That might be bad news according to your understanding, but it would be the restoration of Holy Truth to me.

The Roman Communion has already recognized the Orthodox Catholic theology as valid, this is a great first step, a necessary acknowledgment of Orthodox Truth and a huge concession. Rome only continues to ask that Orthodox submit to the Ultramontanist theory of church governance. (It is this last point that is being discussed in high level dialog these days, a major barrier from the Orthodox point of view to be sure, but not the only one.)

I want to encourage the Orthodox mind among Catholics, I want to see it grow. Many Orthodox do not agree with my position, and I respect their point of view as well, because they do not want to see Orthodox people trapped under the Ultramontanist Papacy. They would prefer to see them come out into the fresh air and the light of day.

But as I see it the schism will never end if all we do is take individuals from each others churches indefinitely. This horrible schism will move around on the map, but it will never go away.

Michael
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« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2008, 06:06:43 AM »

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did

Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.

I like your perspective on unity though but it can't happen by expecting the Latin Church to throw out the baby with the legalism.

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« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2008, 06:36:02 AM »

The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.
I thought holding orthodox doctrine was essential to being Orthodox.....
It seems "Orthodox" means everything, anything and nothing these days....
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« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2008, 09:38:34 AM »

Hello,

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

I couldn't disagree with this more (but you probably already knew that Wink).
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« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2008, 09:52:17 AM »

Hello Joab,  Grin
Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.
Thank you for your opinion, but the teaching office of the church resides in the church.

Holy Orthodoxy has real bishops and they teach the Faith once received through the body of Apostles. The Holy Magisterium subsists in the Holy Orthodox church, to imply otherwise is disingenuous. Once separated from Holy Orthodoxy, the Western church has steadily introduced a complex of ideas that cannot have come through the Apostles.

The very claim that the teaching function of the church is monopolized in some way by a group of bishops that corporately assent to error makes no sense.

Your brother in Christ,
Michael
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« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2008, 09:54:28 AM »

Hello,

I couldn't disagree with this more (but you probably already knew that Wink).
I would expect nothing less from you, my friend  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2008, 10:02:48 AM »

Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.

You're getting things completely backwards.  Assuming, solely for the sake of argument, that the Latin Church remains orthodox and retains the Magisterium, it retains it because it is orthodox.  It is not orthodox because it retains it.  The authority to teach follows the safeguarding of true doctrine, not the other way around.  The order you described is a blank check for the Latin Church to define whatever it wants as correct doctrine, a situation that is quite real.
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« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2008, 12:03:31 PM »

Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink

I didn't state that you are popular  Roll Eyes, well, nobody hates you.  Grin

I tend to agree with Papist's observation: it seems that the most "popular" Catholics posters are the ones who makes the most ultra-montane assertions. (Witness, for example, the "popularity" that Credo.InDeum and Athanasios have been enjoying at the St. John Chrysostom: Supporter of modern (Vatican I) Papal Primacy? thread.)

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

I would say rather that we can discuss to infinity whether that's true or not.

God bless,
Peter.
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