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Author Topic: Latin Catholics Vs. Eastern Catholics  (Read 18908 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 07, 2008, 01:10:49 PM »

MODERATION: This topic has been split off from this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html



On the other side, E&W appears to have retired from the fray - not a post in EC in a week - curious, it's almost as if he had satisfied an agenda and achieved a goal.
Many years,

Neil
Wow. I didn't know I was becoming so popular that I was being discussed on other forums!!! LOL. Neil, my only goal was to point out a clear contradiction in faith between the Latin Church and some Eastern Catholics. The reason I felt this necessary and important is because the Church cannot continue professing two different faiths. The issue should be resolved. The body of Christ does not speak with a forked tongue.
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 04:29:07 PM »

Dear Papist,

The reason I felt this necessary and important is because the Church cannot continue professing two different faiths. The issue should be resolved.

It seems to me you're exaggerating the situation. I would say that Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics already profess the same faith, but we ought to also profess the same creed. In the fact, in 2003 the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation recommended "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 04:36:12 PM »

Dear Papist,

It seems to me you're exaggerating the situation. I would say that Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics already profess the same faith, but we ought to also profess the same creed. In the fact, in 2003 the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation recommended "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

God bless,
Peter.
The problem is that SOME, not all, Eastern Churches reject the concept of the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility etc. Perhaps they would word the problem by stating that the Latin Church espouses these dogmas. But either way, we are professing differing faiths.
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 09:48:11 PM »

The problem is that SOME, not all, Eastern Churches reject the concept of the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility etc. Perhaps they would word the problem by stating that the Latin Church espouses these dogmas. But either way, we are professing differing faiths.

You don't seem to have your facts right.

The Eastern Catholic Churches do accept the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility -- or more precisely, they accept what has been dogmatically defined concerning each of these things.

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Other statements/ideas on the subject -- e.g. that purgatory is a place of punishment, that someone can "skip" purgatory completely vis-à-vis a plenary indulgence, even the term "purgatory" itself -- are not necessary dogma. (Personally, I see the problem as being just the opposite of what you said; namely, Latins telling ECs that because they don't believe this or that idea, they are not "really Catholic".) 

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 11:30:31 PM »

I am curious, which of the two is a accurate English translation of the original Greek, the post VatII text/wording "in fulfillment of the scriptures vs pre VatII "according to the scriptures"  ?

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 11:33:19 PM »

I am curious, which of the two is a accurate English translation of the original Greek, the post VatII text/wording "in fulfillment of the scriptures vs pre VatII "according to the scriptures"  ?

According to the scriptures is more accurate.  In Greek it is "kata", the same is also used to say the Gospel according to St. x. 
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2008, 11:57:38 PM »

It figures...oh well they will blame the mistranslation on the 6th grader who did the latin/english translations of the 69/02 missals...
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2008, 12:16:01 AM »

If memory serves "secundum" is the word used in the Latin creed, which would be identical in meaning and usage to the Greek "kata" - according to.  Do you know what the version used is in the UK and commonwealth nations?  I think they have a much better English translation than is used in the US. 
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2008, 12:50:16 AM »

I guess the same 6th grader did the translation for the CCC...

yes secundum is correct...

PJ is correct, they (EC & RC) need to profess the same Creed...

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 07:48:41 AM »

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Other statements/ideas on the subject -- e.g. that purgatory is a place of punishment, that someone can "skip" purgatory completely vis-à-vis a plenary indulgence, even the term "purgatory" itself -- are not necessary dogma. (Personally, I see the problem as being just the opposite of what you said; namely, Latins telling ECs that because they don't believe this or that idea, they are not "really Catholic".) 
*
And yet, concerning the fire of purgatory and the name "Purgatory" Pope Innocent IV (Council of Lyons (1274)) wrote:

"Forasmuch as (the Greeks) say that this place of purification is not indicated by their doctors by an appropriate and accurate word, we will, in accordance with the tradition and authority of the holy fathers, that henceforth it be called purgatorium, for in this temporary fire are cleansed not deadly capital sins, which must be remitted by penance, but those lesser venial sins which, if not removed in life, afflict men after death."
 
So there's the dilemma for our Catholic friends! Do you accept the papal teaching or do you reject it?  After all, the change of Purgatory from being both "a place and a state" was effected simply by Pope John  Paul II declaring in a couple of lunch-time audiences that it was only a state.  If all Catholics have now accepted his statement as truth then surely Pope Innocent's much more dogmatic and written statements ought to be accepted as truth also? 

Is it true that you accept the Magisterium or do you now deny it for newer teachings which appeal more? On what then is the Catholic faith based if papal teaching can be put aside? Was Peter (speaking through Innocent IV) mistaken? Was Peter misleading the Church in the 13th century?
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 09:55:01 AM »

On what then is the Catholic faith based if papal teaching can be put aside? Was Peter (speaking through Innocent IV) mistaken? Was Peter misleading the Church in the 13th century?

You really don't get it, do you? Popes are fallible, i.e. capable of making mistakes.

-Peter.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 12:32:12 PM »

Obviously. Roll Eyes

Question is, which mistaken Pope knew what he was talking about in regards to your Purgatory?  Or perhaps both were mistaken?  Or were they both correct?  How is one to know?  Flip a coin?  Or does truth in your church depend on the century and what is currently in vogue?
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2008, 01:50:40 PM »

Yes, Heracleides, we flip a coin. Isn't that an obvious corollary of the statement "The pope is fallible"? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2008, 02:23:22 PM »

Question is, which mistaken Pope knew what he was talking about in regards to your Purgatory?  Or perhaps both were mistaken?  Or were they both correct?  How is one to know?  Flip a coin?  Or does truth in your church depend on the century and what is currently in vogue?

The Councils of Florence and Trent spoke authoritatively on Purgatory.

From Trent's 25th session:
 
DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service).

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct25.html
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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2008, 02:34:06 PM »

How many Bishop's from the East were present at Florence & Trent ? How did they vote or what was their opinion ?

So Eastern Catholics accept the current English version of the Nicene Creed ?
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2008, 02:40:44 PM »

How many Bishop's from the East were present at Florence & Trent ? How did they vote or what was their opinion ?

Are you referring to Eastern Catholic bishops?

How many Western bishops were present at Nicaea or Constantinople?

Well, you probably already know how the EO bishops voted at Florence.  Smiley

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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2008, 02:45:42 PM »

Also, considering how little those two councils defined about Purgatory, PJ's statement bears repeating:

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Other statements/ideas on the subject -- e.g. that purgatory is a place of punishment, that someone can "skip" purgatory completely vis-à-vis a plenary indulgence, even the term "purgatory" itself -- are not necessary dogma.

As my quote from Trent shows, the Council Fathers ordered that any theologoumenon outside the basic de fide teaching not be widely disseminated.

In other words, the EC's aren't exactly required to believe in the particulars of Purgatory as described by Dante.
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2008, 03:53:03 PM »

You really don't get it, do you? Popes are fallible, i.e. capable of making mistakes.

So, do you think that Pope John Paul's teaching that Purgatory is not a place is most likely a mistake on his part.  After all he contradicts many of his predecessors' statements on the matter. 

Why do you think that his rather informal teaching on this (at a lunch-time audience) has been so quickly and even enthusiastically adopted by Catholics?  And, will it be corrected by a Pope in the future?
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2008, 04:11:19 PM »

Also, considering how little those two councils defined about Purgatory, PJ's statement bears repeating:

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Other statements/ideas on the subject -- e.g. that purgatory is a place of punishment, that someone can "skip" purgatory completely vis-à-vis a plenary indulgence, even the term "purgatory" itself -- are not necessary dogma.
*
The trouble with Dragani's minimalistic approach is that it eviscerates the papal teachings on Purgatory.  It would enable people to deny that punishment is being made for sin.  It would enable them to deny that venial sin is forgiven in Purgatory.  It would enable them to deny that there is suffering in purgatory.  It would enable them to deny that there is temporal fire in Purgatory.  It would enable them to deny the doctrine of indulgences for those in Purgatory.

In other words Dragani's simplistic claims just won't stand up to historical scrutiny and they do not agree with consistent papal teaching.  Is he wiser then the many Popes who have taught on Purgatory?  Is he such an authority that he is able to negate what the Popes have taught their flock?

His reply would probably be that what the Popes taught was not ex cathedra (as if his own writings are??!  Shocked )

But I think that Catholics have gone overboard on insisting that Petrine teaching is obligatory only when it lines up with the narrow definition of an ex cathedra statement. Catholics need to agree with the Pope's teachings even when he does not speak ex cathedra:

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”
~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2008, 04:33:35 PM »

Hello,

You really don't get it, do you? Popes are fallible, i.e. capable of making mistakes.

-Peter.

I think the term you are looking for is impeccable. Popes are not impeccable, that is they are able to sin and make mistakes in matters not pertaining to authoritatively teaching faith and morals.
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2008, 04:34:25 PM »

Hello,

So, do you think that Pope John Paul's teaching that Purgatory is not a place is most likely a mistake on his part.  After all he contradicts many of his predecessors' statements on the matter. 

How does Pope John Paul II's teaching contradict the dogmatic teaching of Purgatory?
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2008, 05:20:41 PM »

How does Pope John Paul II's teaching contradict the dogmatic teaching of Purgatory?
*
It depends how much faith you place in the ordinary magisterium of the Popes.  If you accept the exercise of the papal magisterium as stated in the teaching on the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (see previous message) then plainly John Paul's opinion that Purgatory is only a state and not a place contradicts quite a number of statements from the papal magisterium over many centuries.

On the other hand, if you confine dogma only to matters which have had an ex cathedra definition, then of course Pope John Paul was not contradicting any dogmatic teaching.  But of course this means that his own teaching on the matter is just as dubious and non-binding as any of the previous Popes.  He may be totally wrong that Purgatory is not a place and some future Pope will correct his error and return the Catholic Church to its former teaching.  At least that has both history and many papal pronouncements in its favour.

The bottom line is - is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church correct in what it says about the ordinary magisterium of the Pope?  Are Catholics really obliged to give it a "submission of mind and will"?
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2008, 10:04:49 PM »

His reply would probably be that what the Popes taught was not ex cathedra (as if his own writings are??!  Shocked )

That's an interesting prediction, Fr. Ambrose (even though I'm not really sure what you're basing it on). If that were Dragani's reply, I would consider it a complete non-sequitur (especially since we don't know how many ex cathedra statements there have been, or even whether there have been any). However, if you leave aside what he would probably say and focus on what he did say, you notice that he actually spoke about "necessary dogma", without any speculations about "ex cathedra statements" (much less any claims that his own writings are ex cathedra).
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2008, 10:08:21 PM »

But I think that Catholics have gone overboard on insisting that Petrine teaching is obligatory only when it lines up with the narrow definition of an ex cathedra statement.

Prepare yourself for a shock, Father, because in this instance I absolutely agree with you.

Not only is that a problem, but doubly a problem, involving both liberals ("spirit of Vatican II" types) and conservatives ("spirit of Vatican I" types). Specifically, liberals will argue "I don't have to accept such-and-such because it wasn't ex cathedra" whereas conservatives will argue "we do have to accept such-and-such, therefore it must have been ex cathedra". Both ideas are nonsense. (For example, Catholics are required to accept the teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on reserving priestly ordination to men alone, but only a few fringe-conservatives would claim that it was an ex cathedra statement.)

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Peter.
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 12:40:28 AM »

However, if you leave aside what he would probably say and focus on what he did say, you notice that he actually spoke about "necessary dogma", without any speculations about "ex cathedra statements"
*
But this is part of the whole confusion in Dragani's writings.   Where are the ex cathedra statements confirming that his personal choices in this matter are "necessary dogma"?  Who decided that what he calls "necessary dogma" is in fact so? 

He denies indulgences and other teachings as necessary dogma and this contradicts numerous statements when the Popes have exercised their ordinary magisterium on the matter.  He is all over the place and does not seem to have anything close to approaching what we might call the papal mindset.

Not only is dissenting from the teachings of the Popes but he appears quite unaware of the teaching of Vatican II on the Pope's exercise of his ordinary magisterium and that he is bound to give it "submission of mind and will."

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.” ~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2008, 01:29:36 AM »

Is the dogmatic constitution on the church an ex cathedra statement?
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2008, 09:45:20 AM »

Dear Father Ambrose,

Seems to me that you start off with nonsense ("Where are the ex cathedra statements confirming that his personal choices in this matter are 'necessary dogma'?" Where? I don't know where. Why should there be any? How do you know that any pope has ever made an ex cathedra statement, period?) but then proceed to sense after your first paragraph.

Not only is dissenting from the teachings of the Popes but he appears quite unaware of the teaching of Vatican II on the Pope's exercise of his ordinary magisterium and that he is bound to give it "submission of mind and will."

“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.” ~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25

This is, after all, what this is really about, right? Not purgatory or ECs or Dragani? If "judgments" is understood in the broadest way, this statement implies that a Catholic must agree with every statement the pope makes on faith and morals, right?

No, wait, that still wouldn't be the broadest way to understand it, because the statement says "judgments" without any qualification about "faith and morals". So the broadest understanding of the word "judgments" would lead to the conclusion, for example, that since Pope Benedict "judges" that Turkey should not be admitted to the European Union, Catholics are obliged to think so as well.

Right?
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2008, 12:52:33 PM »

Hello,

(For example, Catholics are required to accept the teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on reserving priestly ordination to men alone, but only a few fringe-conservatives would claim that it was an ex cathedra statement.)

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful. (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 4).


If that is not an ex-cathedra statement, it's as close as you can get without going over.  Tongue I don't want to derail the topic, so back to your regularly scheduled thread.  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2008, 12:55:10 PM »

Hello,

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful. (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 4).


If that is not an ex-cathedra statement, it's as close as you can get without going over.  Tongue I don't want to derail the topic, so back to your regularly scheduled thread.  Grin

Well, if it isn't ex-cathedra, it's still infallible because it only confirms the constant and ancient teaching of the Magisterium and the universal witness of Scripture.
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« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2008, 01:01:44 PM »

Hello,

*
It depends how much faith you place in the ordinary magisterium of the Popes.  If you accept the exercise of the papal magisterium as stated in the teaching on the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (see previous message) then plainly John Paul's opinion that Purgatory is only a state and not a place contradicts quite a number of statements from the papal magisterium over many centuries.

On the other hand, if you confine dogma only to matters which have had an ex cathedra definition, then of course Pope John Paul was not contradicting any dogmatic teaching.  But of course this means that his own teaching on the matter is just as dubious and non-binding as any of the previous Popes.  He may be totally wrong that Purgatory is not a place and some future Pope will correct his error and return the Catholic Church to its former teaching.  At least that has both history and many papal pronouncements in its favour.

The bottom line is - is the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church correct in what it says about the ordinary magisterium of the Pope?  Are Catholics really obliged to give it a "submission of mind and will"?

Nice try, but you need to understand what the document is saying. By the way, I recommend you read the whole of that paragraph that detail the Bishops role - for further conversations.

In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

So the first thing to notice is that it deals with matters of faith and morals. So if the Pope says - I think we should all eat Cheerios for breakfast - that doesn't deal with faith and morals.

Next, it mentions the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff - that is as his role as Pope. The new book by Pope Benedict - Jesus of Nazareth - doesn't fit that bill. But his two encyclicals - as does his Motu Proprio - do. Also, it says that we must learn of the Pope's mind and will and that they will be made known via character of documents, from repetition or from manner of speaking.

Third, it should be noted that while sincere respect must be shown towards that Pope's non-ex-cathedra teachings, they do not bind in the same way. I agree with PJ that we must not just bow to the letter, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of the Pontiff's mouth is infallible teaching and binding for always and forever.
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« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2008, 01:02:38 PM »

Hello,

Well, if it isn't ex-cathedra, it's still infallible because it only confirms the constant and ancient teaching of the Magisterium and the universal witness of Scripture.

Absolutely!
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« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2008, 04:22:05 PM »

I agree with PJ that we must not just bow to the letter, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes out of the Pontiff's mouth is infallible teaching and binding for always and forever.

Thanks, Athanasios. That means a lot, coming from you and given the ultra-montane statements you've made previously. (By the way, I really enjoyed the way you "put me in my place" with your You must have meant to say 'impeccable', but said 'infallible' by mistake. That was classic.)


Father Ambrose,

I've been thinking about your quote from Lumen Gentium and trying to figure out the best way to explain my thoughts on it. I'm not a theologian, but it seems to me:

1. By saying "the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to", the statement is indicating judgments of the type "all Catholics must do/believe such-and-such". If the pope judges X to be true, but does not judge it to be necessary for all Catholics to believe X, and then someone else comes along and says "The pope said X is true, so no one can be Catholic unless he/she believes X", then that statement would actually be going against the pope's judgment.

2. Perhaps more to the point, the second part of the statement is an elaboration on the first part "religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra". In particular, it indicates that the "judgments made by him" in question are only those made in the exercise of "the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff", not judgment made as a private theologian (as Athanasios pointed out).

Again, I'm no theologian. Hopefully someone else can explain this better than I can. (Neil, are you around?)

God bless,
Peter.

P.S. By the way, Father, if your intention was to convince me that I ought to leave the Catholic Church and become Orthodox, then I'd say you came closer than anyone else has recently.  Wink
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2008, 03:01:08 PM »

A lot of people involved I think won't see a difference from a divorced from a "anullled" couple.  I am sure the children won't.

Thats true, children don't understand so then it could be said all those who do not understand are also children.

Quote
Some say that the anullment process IS "healing."  I hope it is, but how mystifies me.
I can see how the process might make one reflect.

By the pursuit of virtues.

Quote
The review and then suspension was over the final comment:

 "And I haven't. Now we can talk Catholic to Latin."

Seems you proclaimed yourself to be something. Doesn't this insinuate Latin’s are not Catholic? Do you miss the lack of Charity in that?

Quote
I try to be 100% Catholic, but I won't bend my knee to Rome until he confesses the Orthdox Faith.

Then bend it to Jesus.

Quote
I don't use Roman because 1) the so called Byzantines (I term I NEVER use) were the Romans, 2) my ex-wife is Romanian, and although she is not Orthodox (she was told never to come back) many of the Romanians thoroughly are, and they are also 100% Roman (I refer to the Romans to my sons as "your ancestors" stramosii vostri).

I trust I don't have to explain papist (though in my protestant days, that was on the table).

Speaks volumes and by the way you used the term of Roman which in the same breath you claimed you never do.

Quote
I've gotten several kind PMs stating that they are embracing Orthodoxy in part because of my posts.

Proselytization abounds. Reconciliation is the only way to go.

Quote
Not to proselytise, but that Orthodoxy's message and image gets out: the Holy Spirit must take full responsibility if that gets out of hand.

Not to? but aren't you?

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CAF presents a more dire need of education.

From who?

Quote
I talk too much already.

Well in your post there are fingers pointed about pride and hypocracy and you know what they say about pointing a finger.

Quote
I have not shyed away from calling it as I see it.  And I can tell many don't like that type of bare knuckled scrutiny of it.

Ah good, license to be honest.




Peace.
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2008, 05:31:43 PM »

Thats true, children don't understand so then it could be said all those who do not understand are also children.

Matthew 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

The Romanians have a saying "The insane, the drunk and children say the truth."

Funny, the tribunals and their canon law point out that children of such an "invalid" marriage are "legitimate."  How so?  A counterfeit bill is never worth anything in reality.  A store front preacher can never confer holy orders.  Yet we are told that an invalid marriage produces legitimate children.  How?  It never was a marriage, hence all the years the couple lived in fornication (and that of course, is what it is, according to the principles of the tribunal).

If it was valid enough to produce legitimage issue, it is valid enough as a marriage that no man should put asunder.

Btw, on the original forum an ADULT child of a dissolution states what her parents dissolution resulted in: she sees no reason to get into marriage when her parents after 26 years was judged a lie.

Quote
By the pursuit of virtues.

As I said, hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue.  If that qualifies....

Quote
Seems you proclaimed yourself to be something. Doesn't this insinuate Latin’s are not Catholic? Do you miss the lack of Charity in that?


No, I proclaimed something for my Church: the One, Holy, CATHOLIC and Apostolic one.

I don't insinuate: I come right out and say that ultramontanist and legalist strands that produce the Latin marriage tribunals are not what was believed everywhere, at all times, by everyone, and hence not Catholic.

I'd have to leap frog over the charity in labeling Orthodox non-Catholics, lumped with the Protestants, Jews, Muslims and Atheists first.

I was told that I should kow tow a party line that I will not subscribe to, nor do I see it in the fine print of the rules that I have to buy legalism's take on this, or other things.  It's Mr. Keating's dime, but I'm not for sale.

Quote
Then bend it to Jesus.

Seven times a day, facing East.

Speaks volumes and by the way you used the term of Roman which in the same breath you claimed you never do.

Quote
Proselytization abounds. Reconciliation is the only way to go.

That road is not paved in denial.

Quote
Not to? but aren't you?


1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear.

It's hard to be humble when you belong to the Orthodox.  I fear I will not do her justice.

The posts stated that Orthodox had departed from the Faith of the Fathers, and offered sanctimony as proof.

Quote
From who?


Those who know what they are talking about.

Quote
Well in your post there are fingers pointed about pride and hypocracy and you know what they say about pointing a finger.

You forgot sanctimony.

Why ultramontanists and legalists take such pride in anullments baffles me, especially given the current practice.

Quote
Ah good, license to be honest.

'tis the season....




Peace.

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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2008, 05:37:18 PM »

wow. That was an emotionally Charged post.  Maybe try and see where we are coming from. In our view there was a time when, for the most part, there were no Eastern Catholic Churches and yet the Catholic Church still remained Catholic and still taught the faith through Councils. Because these Councils are true dogmatic Councils, ALL Catholics should be reuquired to assent to the teachings contained therein. The truth is singular and not subjective. What is true for one Catholic Church should be ture for another.
We traditional Catholics, however, have no problem with our Eastern Catholic bretheren. What do have a problem with is those Particular Eastern Catholics who profess the Eastern Orthodox faith rather than the Catholic faith. We understand that the body of Christ cannot profess the faith of two different religions.

That's an issue between you and your brothers in the East.

The terms of some the unions make reference to a number of the issues you raise.  Of course, once they signed, that didn't mean that what they were promised would be implimented (like married clergy).

Interesting how you are "traditionalist," whereas the Eastern Catholic apparently are not.
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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2008, 06:45:05 PM »


Interesting how you are "traditionalist," whereas the Eastern Catholic apparently are not.
It is, isn't it?
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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2008, 11:26:51 PM »

Interesting how you are "traditionalist," whereas the Eastern Catholic apparently are not.

Well of course. The Eastern Catholic doesn't follow the tradition of inserting the filioque into the creed. (I'm being sarcastic, obviously.)
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2008, 01:13:45 AM »

I wonder just how much of this debate is a result of ethnocentrism and cultural chauvinism?
My guess is that it is the majority....
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2008, 03:13:57 AM »

Quote
The problem is that SOME, not all, Eastern Churches reject the concept of the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility etc. Perhaps they would word the problem by stating that the Latin Church espouses these dogmas. But either way, we are professing differing faiths.

This is pretty accurate, but needs a lot of qualification. Theologumen would be an appropriate word. Also, please recognize that often the Theology and Spirituality of the Melkite Catholics is referred to as the Melkite Faith. This is confusing to members of the Church of Rome because they think if faith in terms of Latin Theology (which is patently wrong because being Catholic doesn't mean being a member of the Church of Rome). The idea that Melkites (or Eastern Catholics) must accept into thier Theology "developments" forumlated in Latin terms will never work because it makes Eastern Catholics Latin Catholics with Icons.

What can be said is that since the Church does not teach anything new, Eastern Catholics see what the General Synods say and assent to those ideas (which are already there or course) which are orthodox. Because of this, Eastern Catholics cannot accept the Western forumlation of Mary being free from sin (but in the East this is because she never sinned, not because she couldn't sin. She Could have), The role of the Pope of Rome (His Holiness is not over the Patriarch or other Bishops, the Papacy and Synodality are inseperable). The reality is that we have the SAME faith, but express it differently. This should be obvious when you consider that we have different Liturgies, but we make up the One Church.   


Quote
You don't seem to have your facts right.

The Eastern Catholic Churches do accept the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility -- or more precisely, they accept what has been dogmatically defined concerning each of these things.

The Eastern Churches do not accept the Latin Formulations of the filioque. In fact, the MOST that can be admited is an energetic procession. The emphasis of the Latin theologumen belongs in the West.

Regarding the Immaculate conception, we are all immaculately concieved because we are all born without a stain of sin. Why? There is no stain in Eastern Theology. In fact, the Most Holy Theotokos Mary is a model for humanity and the first Christian. She could have sinned but did not.

Regarding Papal Infallibility, Synodality and the Papacy are inseperable. The Patriarchal Ministry is equal to the Peterine ministry in Eastern Ecclesiology. No Bishop is over another. Not in heirarchy or jurisdiction. 

Quote
Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

Other statements/ideas on the subject -- e.g. that purgatory is a place of punishment, that someone can "skip" purgatory completely vis-à-vis a plenary indulgence, even the term "purgatory" itself -- are not necessary dogma. (Personally, I see the problem as being just the opposite of what you said; namely, Latins telling ECs that because they don't believe this or that idea, they are not "really Catholic".) 

God bless,
Peter.

Purgatory is a Western theologumen. The East remembers her dead in a 40 days memorial and other prayers. We pray for our dead. These prayers are obviously efficaious. However, The Christian East stresses (and Orientale Lumen recognized) that theosis and deification takes places here and now, not only in the life to come. This is not the same as redemptive suffering and purgatory (which are Western).
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2008, 04:20:27 AM »


Forgive me for my blunt assessment, but your post is pretty much aligned with the "have their cake and eat it too" attitude expressed by the Melkite Church.  It reminds me very much of the recent Melkite proposal to enter into communion with the Antiochian Orthodox and to remain in communion with Rome through the contention of the Melkite Patriarch that "he believes everything that Orthodoxy teaches" and that he upholds union with Rome "based on the common faith upheld by the undivided Church through the first millenium".  (I apologise for my paraphrase, but IIRC, this was the essence of the Patriarch's argument.) This proposal was rejected by Rome and the Orthodox alike, neither side being in agreement with the unique POV offered by the Melkites.  In this sense, your post is also the "poster boy", so to speak, for those who argue in this thread that there are many in the Eastern Catholic communion who see no need to adhere to beliefs central to being in communion with Rome, the most prominent being that of submitting to the authority of Rome.  Your post provides all the evidence they need to support their contention.  Moreover, it illuminates quite well how the Melkites are "ringleaders" for those Eastern Catholics who believe that they have no need to submit to the authority of Rome.

Please don't misunderstand me.  In many ways, I appreciate the sincere and strong ways since the early years of Vatican II that the Melkites have stood independently and strongly for Orthodox doctrine.  They are, I think, unique among the Eastern Catholic Churches in this respect.  In a strange way, the Orthodox owe the Melkites a debt of gratitude for the strong influence they exerted at the second Vatican council, in terms of insisting that conciliarity amongst bishops become more strongly asserted and in affirming the correctness and venerability of other Orthodox beliefs.  However, Melkites who believe that they are not "under' the Pope, but simply "in communion" with him, are in grave error.  It is a matter of some debate regarding just how much doctrines  promulgated since the end of the first millenium in the West must be adhered to by Eastern Catholics, but a wholesale rejection of these doctrines must also be seen as being erroneous and part and parcel of the "have your cake and eat it too" syndrome.
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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2008, 04:42:49 AM »

Regarding the Immaculate conception, we are all immaculately concieved because we are all born without a stain of sin. Why? There is no stain in Eastern Theology. In fact, the Most Holy Theotokos Mary is a model for humanity and the first Christian. She could have sinned but did not.

I think the Orthodox position tends to differ somewhat from this POV.  It's true that Orthodoxy would lean toward saying that we are born without responsibility for the sin of Adam.   However, we still suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, because of the solidarity of the one human nature.  Also, many Holy Fathers affirm that the Holy Theotokos never sinned, but there appear to be a few dissenting opinions, prominent among them being St. John Chrysostom, who seems to claim that she may have been just a little bit prideful.  Of course, I'm not disputing in any way that she was the holiest person who ever lived, next to Our Lord Himself!  And you're quite right in saying that she is a model for humanity, and the glory of humanity, which is why we say in amazement and awe that she is "more honourable than the cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim"!
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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2008, 04:44:32 AM »

Again, I'm no theologian. Hopefully someone else can explain this better than I can. (Neil, are you around?)

Peter,

I'm guessing that we may be acquainted from elsewhere, but I am at a loss as to whom you might be or under what other nick I might know you. But, regardless, thanks for the compliment (LOL - I guess), however, I am no theologian, by any stretch of anyone's imagination. If they stop and think about it, those who have read my stuff over the years will realize that they likely can't recollect seeing me participate in much that would be considered theological or apologetic debate. It's not my thing.

I'll fiercely defend the right of any EC/EO or OC/OO to believe and charitably/civilly express their beliefs and their agreement or disagreement with their opposite number, but I'm here primarily to celebrate, share, and educate my brethren, and those who honestly inquire, about the beauty of our spirituality, praxis, and ecclesio-cultural identities - even our pirohi or fatayah  Grin . That's what I do and I try my best to do it well. Sound like a cop-out? It's not intended to be; hopefully God doesn't find it such.

Many years,

Neil

PS - to Bob's point, I don't think Laka or I would disagree entirely with what he's posted. Ours is a conflicted Church but we cannot and will not stand around, wringing our hands, and waiting for the moment at which the Holy Spirit decides to illumne all concerned and bring a millenium or more of separation to an end. So, we celebrate every aspect of the religious beliefs that we share either with both Rome and Constantinople or with only one of them. I can't ask that anyone fully understand; I'm not sure we always do. It's not beyond imagining that, when the Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue Commission meets, and our Church name is mentioned, those on both sides look across the table and say - simultaneously - "what is with those Melkites?" - to which the simultaneous replies from both parties are shrugged shoulders and mumbled "who knows"  Huh
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« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2008, 05:27:18 AM »

Quote
However, we still suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, because of the solidarity of the one human nature.

It's hard to convey any real sense of humor online, but the "we are all immacualtely conceived" is  actually a witty, comical remark. Sorry for the confusion here. I suppose my explanation makes it even less comical...

The effect of Adam's sin is death. We all die, therefore we all suffer the effects of Adam's sin (not concupisence).

I don't really see anything in your posts to disagree with.

I am proud to be Melkite. It is an impossible life. We are not accepted by the West as Catholic and We are puzzling to the Orthodox for epousing what we espouse, but remaining in communion with Rome.  Huh

IrishMelkite explained it perfectly. I don't try yo understand it myself.

Honestly, Pravoslavbob, there probably little to nothing with essentially disagree on. Please don't be offended by the insignificant assumption of this sinner, though.
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« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2008, 06:34:13 AM »

Peter,

I'm guessing that we may be acquainted from elsewhere, but I am at a loss as to whom you might be or under what other nick I might know you. But, regardless, thanks for the compliment (LOL - I guess), however, I am no theologian, by any stretch of anyone's imagination. If they stop and think about it, those who have read my stuff over the years will realize that they likely can't recollect seeing me participate in much that would be considered theological or apologetic debate. It's not my thing.

I'll fiercely defend the right of any EC/EO or OC/OO to believe and charitably/civilly express their beliefs and their agreement or disagreement with their opposite number, but I'm here primarily to celebrate, share, and educate my brethren, and those who honestly inquire, about the beauty of our spirituality, praxis, and ecclesio-cultural identities - even our pirohi or fatayah  Grin . That's what I do and I try my best to do it well. Sound like a cop-out? It's not intended to be; hopefully God doesn't find it such.

Many years,

Neil

PS - to Bob's point, I don't think Laka or I would disagree entirely with what he's posted. Ours is a conflicted Church but we cannot and will not stand around, wringing our hands, and waiting for the moment at which the Holy Spirit decides to illumne all concerned and bring a millenium or more of separation to an end. So, we celebrate every aspect of the religious beliefs that we share either with both Rome and Constantinople or with only one of them. I can't ask that anyone fully understand; I'm not sure we always do. It's not beyond imagining that, when the Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue Commission meets, and our Church name is mentioned, those on both sides look across the table and say - simultaneously - "what is with those Melkites?" - to which the simultaneous replies from both parties are shrugged shoulders and mumbled "who knows"  Huh


Yes, there is somewhat an attitude in Antioch towards both Old and New Rome: a pox on both your houses.  Don't drag us into your squabbles.
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« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2008, 09:54:06 AM »

The thing about RC dogmas is that they're written in ways that are so terribly suggestive.

For example:

- (the Immaculate Conception) "[bgcolor=#FFFFFF]The most Blessed Virgin Mary ... was preserved free from all stain of original sin.[/bgcolor]" Does that mean that everyone else has a stain of original sin? (BTW, LakaYaRabb, I did like your line about "we are all immaculately conceived".)

- (Unam Sactum) "[bgcolor=#FFFFFF]It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.[/bgcolor]" Does that imply that anyone who says 'I'm not subject to the Roman Pontiff' automatically goes to hell?

- (Papal Infallibility) "[bgcolor=#FFFFFF]When the Roman Pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.[/bgcolor]" Does that mean that the pope can exercise 'his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians' whenever he wants?

And so on.
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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2008, 10:17:41 AM »

Laka, I find it very refreshing to hear from an Eastern Catholic who isn't completely Latinized.

Neil, I used to post on the byzcath forum, so you might be remembering me from there.
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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2008, 01:05:03 PM »

PJ,

I do remember you form Byzcath. I haven't posted there in a while, not much going on there.

It's easier not to be latinized if your a Melkite (sad, really).
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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2008, 02:19:21 PM »

Because of this, Eastern Catholics cannot accept the Western forumlation of Mary being free from sin (but in the East this is because she never sinned, not because she couldn't sin. She Could have),

We also believe she could have, but she chose not to. The Immaculate Conception didn't turn her into a robot, it in fact did the opposite: It freed her will so she could choose never to sin (can't be done with a fallen nature). She was, in effect, made to be like Eve before the Fall. She is the New Eve. While Eve chose to sin and fell, Mary chose not to sin and freely said "Fiat" to the Lord's will.

So, yes, she could have sinned.
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2008, 02:23:49 PM »

Purgatory is a Western theologumen. The East remembers her dead in a 40 days memorial and other prayers. We pray for our dead. These prayers are obviously efficaious. However, The Christian East stresses (and Orientale Lumen recognized) that theosis and deification takes places here and now, not only in the life to come. This is not the same as redemptive suffering and purgatory (which are Western).

We believe it takes place here too, of course. That's what penances and devotions are for. They reduce purgatory "time" precisely because they move us deeper in theosis while we are still living. The more theosis during your earthly life, the less purification needed at death.

So I agree with you that East and West have the same Catholic faith, just expressed in different language.
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2008, 02:52:09 PM »

We believe it takes place here too, of course. That's what penances and devotions are for. They reduce purgatory "time" precisely because they move us deeper in theosis while we are still living. The more theosis during your earthly life, the less purification needed at death.

So I agree with you that East and West have the same Catholic faith, just expressed in different language.

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.
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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2008, 02:59:05 PM »

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.

References for this claim, please?
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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2008, 03:24:11 PM »

References for this claim, please?

No references are needed. Why would man need purgatory if man becomes the image of God?
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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2008, 03:40:08 PM »

Not so. First, one must make it to the next life. Theosis is becoming the Image of Christ in this life. What Catholic's profess is that no man can attain Theosis in this life.

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2008, 03:46:58 PM »

Dear ialmisry (re: CAF),

I was told that I should kow tow a party line that I will not subscribe to, nor do I see it in the fine print of the rules that I have to buy legalism's take on this, or other things.  It's Mr. Keating's dime, but I'm not for sale.

You see now that make sense to me. What I have difficulty understanding is why a lot of Orthodox seem to prefer conversation with ultra-Latin, ultramontane, even anti-Orthodox, Catholics.

(To be fair, I've also never been able to understand why a lot of Catholics avoid Orthodox as one might avoid the Plague, preferring dialogue with Protestants.)

-Peter.
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« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2008, 03:48:24 PM »

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.

Your correct, but stating that one needs a purgatory bath implies that one hasn't achieved Theosis in this life.
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« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2008, 03:56:03 PM »

Your correct, but stating that one needs a purgatory bath implies that one hasn't achieved Theosis in this life.

Well, quite simply, I believe that theosis doesn't suddenly stop when we die but continues after death.
-Peter.
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« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2008, 04:00:15 PM »

Well, quite simply, I believe that theosis doesn't suddenly stop when we die but continues after death.
-Peter.

It does, But If our Saints have bin sanctified in this life why do they need purgatory? Is a continuing Theosis a byproduct of being tortured?
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2008, 04:20:13 PM »

Is a continuing Theosis a byproduct of being tortured?

Huh?
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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2008, 04:24:01 PM »

No references are needed. Why would man need purgatory if man becomes the image of God?

Not everybody goes through Purgatory.

Read up on our teaching before you pontificate on it.
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« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2008, 04:29:25 PM »

Consider, for example, purgatory (which was covered on this board not long ago). As Anthony Dragani puts it (East to West): "In the Catholic understanding, only two points are necessary dogma concerning "purgatory": 1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state."

The question I have is are they gauranteed salvation once they enter purgatory?  Many easterners would say that hell is the cleansing place.  Not that there is a place in hell that is devoted to cleansing but that hell is equivalent to purgatory.  So they would not make a distinction between those who are damned and those who are in purgatory.
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« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »

Not everybody goes through Purgatory.

Read up on our teaching before you pontificate on it.

I extend the same to you. Read up on Orthodoxy. What makes you think there is continued life after death for everyone?
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« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2008, 04:56:56 PM »

I extend the same to you. Read up on Orthodoxy. What makes you think there is continued life after death for everyone?

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.
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« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.

You just have.
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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2008, 05:16:53 PM »

You just have.

Can you refer to one saint who has made such a claim?  Or even a current bishop.
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »

... I used to post on the byzcath forum, so you might be remembering me from there.
Gosh, you look just like Bruce Willis!  Shocked
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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2008, 05:48:53 PM »

Can you refer to one saint who has made such a claim?  Or even a current bishop.

I'll give you both Wink

His Eminence John Zizioulas Metropolitan of Pergamon.



Quote
The only one that is uncreated and has no beginning is God, The Holy Trinity. Everything else that has its beginning in time is created. Uncreated has it's ontological foundation in being, meaning He is Life, and the only Giver of Life. Everything else that is created has no ontological foundation in itself. But because everything was created out of unbeing (ex nihilo). Unbeing is always present in created as a threat. So everything that has its beginning might have an end, meaning it is finite (limited). Because all that is created, has no ontological foundation in being it must be in communion with someone who has/is, that is only God. With free will we can decide to be or not to be in communion with the uncreated. But death, or end, is something that goes together with creation ex nihilo.



 St Athanasius writes that:



Quote
Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ; and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore upon men who as animals, were essentially impermanent,He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked- namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in a limited degree, they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise.   
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2008, 05:57:02 PM »

I really don't see the point of this question?  I have never heard of an EO Christian saying that any human will cease to exist.
You just have.
I am surprised at this comment.

I suppose that since anything is possible with God, absolute and complete annihilation is not out of the question...but I have not encountered speculation on that possibility before. Perhaps I should pay more attention...  Undecided
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2008, 06:23:00 PM »

Theosis is an on-going process. Saying that theosis isn't completed in this life doesn't imply that theosis doesn't take place in this life.
I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2008, 07:10:53 PM »

Hello,

I wonder just how much of this debate is a result of ethnocentrism and cultural chauvinism?
My guess is that it is the majority....

I just read a good article on this by a Romanian Catholic Hieromonk. He stated that a major problem with East-West relations is a distrust and fear of foreign cultures.
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« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2008, 07:17:15 PM »

Hello,

I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.

As for deification, the process as we become more and more god-like - though we never complete the process since there is an infinite gap between God and man - could very well be. I don't see anything in Catholic theology to preclude such a process. There is nothing defined as to what Heaven will be like. We know we will see God as He is according to Saint John the Apostle, which Catholicism gives the name of the Beatific Vision to, but what the exact nature of this will be - we don't know nor has it been defined.

Purgatory is not the making of someone god-like - at least not in the sense of theosis or deification. Purgatory is a transitional state after death for those who have imperfections on their souls. Nothing impure can stand before God according to Saint John the Apostle, but most of us are not very pure when we die - but we haven't been evil enough to warrant going to hell for eternity. So we go through a purgative process to become pure - so that we can stand before God.
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« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2008, 09:08:09 PM »

I agree with this, for sure.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

My understanding is that Theosis is a -NEVER- ending process, simply because we can never BE God, there is a rather infinite gap between us as creatures, and the Divine. Our striving is never completed, nor completely satisfied.

Purgatory is a different idea entirely, some may never need it (according to RC theology), the pearly gates swing wide open for them.

Some need a lot of it  Sad But when they have completed the rehab, or whatever it may be... (for the purgation of sins...) they are qualified for salvation, put another way they graduate.  Dante made an interesting image of souls escorted on boats to Purgatory singing! This is because they knew they were saved. Pretty swell deal.

With the concept of Theosis there is no graduation, no finish...it's eternal, at least for those who have not dropped out. And it begins now...this very minute, if one would care to try.

Theosis is the actualization of the image of God, the dynamic of living out the likeness of God by acquiring His energies.  Since His energies do not contain His essence, the dynamic is never ending.
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« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2008, 11:54:13 PM »

Gosh, you look just like Bruce Willis!  Shocked

Why thank you! I wish I had a beard like yours.

There is a major conceptual difference between the Purgatory idea and the Divinization idea.

I don't think it is worthwhile to try to conflate them. Some people try to make them seem like two different ways to describe the same thing, but that is far too simplistic.

Some people describe Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics by saying "We mean the same thing, we just say it differently." I think that's an over-generalization.

Obviously, there are some times when we mean the same thing but say it differently; but there are other times when we disagree about something but are willing to be in full communion with each other anyways. (E.g. ECs saying "7 ecumenical councils" vs. Latin Catholics saying "21 ecumenical councils". See also my post this morning about  Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception.)

My $0.02.
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« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2008, 12:11:58 AM »

Hello Athanasios,
As for deification, the process as we become more and more god-like - though we never complete the process since there is an infinite gap between God and man - could very well be. I don't see anything in Catholic theology to preclude such a process...
Well, that's a relief!

Well, not really  Wink , I can understand what you mean though. My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways. Anthony Dragani (on the EWTN website) is one who famously confuses the two separate ideas into one doctrine with two tails, or two heads...or whatever.

Therefore I see no reason why a Roman Catholic could not accept the doctrine of Divinization, as separate and distinct from the doctrine of Purgatory.

As for the other details of your post, I acknowledge that you posted them and understand them while I disagree. That's OK, I am not in the mood to go into it, you have a set of beliefs and I do too, that's enough for me right now. I just wanted to touch upon this one point above.

In Christ,
Michael
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« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2008, 12:36:30 AM »


Some people describe Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics by saying "We mean the same thing, we just say it differently." I think that's an over-generalization.

Obviously, there are some times when we mean the same thing but say it differently; but there are other times when we disagree about something but are willing to be in full communion with each other anyways. (E.g. ECs saying "7 ecumenical councils" vs. Latin Catholics saying "21 ecumenical councils". See also my post this morning about  Papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception.)

My $0.02.
-Peter.
I see your point as far as the Roman Communion is concerned.

I think sometimes it may even conceivable for Roman Catholics and Orthodox to have a common belief and express it differently, I am pretty sure, but I can't think of any good examples to illustrate the point.

Certainly I reject the "Purgatory is Theosis" theory.

The problem is...if we continually express doctrines differently, how can we ever be sure they really are the same? Sooner or later we will have to find a common language for them, or presume that they are not actually the same after all.

Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...). The problem for me is, he chooses to affirm the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as a Gold Standard all Catholics (and presumably Orthodox) must accept. I would much rather he picked the Orthodox understanding!  Grin We'd get along much better.  Roll Eyes

Michael
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« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2008, 02:15:05 AM »


I think sometimes it may even conceivable for Roman Catholics and Orthodox to have a common belief and express it differently, I am pretty sure, but I can't think of any good examples to illustrate the point.

Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Octave of Christmas/Annunciation of the Holy Theotokos.

Apostles Creed/Nicene Creed. 

Masses for the Dead/Commemoration in DL.
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« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2008, 12:24:53 PM »

My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways. Anthony Dragani (on the EWTN website) is one who famously confuses the two separate ideas into one doctrine with two tails, or two heads...or whatever.

Hesychios (Michael),

Thanks for your various thoughts.

I have been giving this matter much thought but haven't come up with very much to say.

In my own life, Dragani helped me to realize that latinization (especially coerced latinization) of EC Churches is not just a problem with respect to liturgy, but also with respect to theology.

But looking at his writing, I do have to admit that some of his statements are problematic. For example, the last paragraph of the "Purgatory" section says:

Quote from:  Anthony Dragani
Although we do not use the same words, Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and Latin Catholics do essentially believe the same thing on this important point.

which I think is misleading at best.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2008, 03:44:46 PM »

Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...).

Absolutely! It's bad enough that Catholics don't all say the same Creed; it would be worse if we didn't proclaim the same Faith.

But I believe that we Catholics do all adhere to the same Faith, notwithstanding our disagreements. To go back to one of the examples I gave yesterday (Papal Infallibility):

Does that mean that the pope can exercise 'his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians' whenever he wants?

Some have certainly thought so. Even Cardinal Newman said that whether or not a papal statement was ex cathedra was "mainly a matter of intention" -- pretty much ruling out the possibility of a pope thinking he was making an ex cathedra statement when he wasn't.

I, for one, believe that Cardinal Newman's statement was incorrect, but I don't believe it was heresy. In other words, I believe that Cardinal Newman and I both proclaim the same Faith, despite our disagreement.

That's all for now.
God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2008, 04:29:31 PM »



Which is why (as much as he annoys me) Papist makes a good point here. Sometimes his arguments make sense to an Orthodox Christian, when he states that there can be only one Truth and a church should proclaim one Faith, not two (or three...). The problem for me is, he chooses to affirm the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as a Gold Standard all Catholics (and presumably Orthodox) must accept. I would much rather he picked the Orthodox understanding!  Grin We'd get along much better.  Roll Eyes

Michael
Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard. I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.
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« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2008, 09:24:13 PM »

And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard. I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.

Papist,

I give you an A+ for honesty.

-Peter.

P.S. This seems like kind of a historic moment. Not on the order of Martin Luther calling James "an epistle of straw", of course, but historic nevertheless.
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« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2008, 10:53:54 AM »

Hello,

My point would be that they are not the same thing, although I have encountered many wishful thinkers who would try to make out that in fact Purgatory and Theosis ARE the same thing expressed in different ways.

I agree. There are many things that are the same thing expressed in differing ways - but Purgatory and Theosis are not the same thing. I would venture a guess (though I haven't given it too much thought) that the corresponding viewpoint of Theosis is the Beatific Vision.


Therefore I see no reason why a Roman Catholic could not accept the doctrine of Divinization, as separate and distinct from the doctrine of Purgatory.

I don't either.
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« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2008, 10:54:52 AM »

Hello,

I have a question about terms.

Are Theosis, Deification, and Divinization different terms for the same thing?
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« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2008, 05:07:24 PM »

Hello,

I have a question about terms.

Are Theosis, Deification, and Divinization different terms for the same thing?
From what little I understand about them I beleive they are.
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« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2008, 11:43:55 PM »

Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink And you are correct. I do see the Latin Catholic set of beliefs as the Gold standard.
I didn't state that you are popular  Roll Eyes, well, nobody hates you.  Grin

I respect you for the strong stand you take, supporting your beliefs as you do. I also can agree that their is only one Truth. Many Orthodox feel just as strongly that we proclaim different Faiths (and for essentially the same reasons you might give).

I just don't agree with your choices...had you been Orthodox like your ancestors, I think we would get along great.
I cannot help but do so since at one time when the Catholic Church was little more than the Latin Church herself and she still taught with Christ's authority at that time.
This is where I think you have spun out of orbit.

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

The parts of your Communion which exhibit strong traces of it's former Orthodoxy are mostly clustered in the Byzantine-rite Particular churches and to some extent in the other Eastern Catholic Particular churches, but are a distinct minority even there. There is some trace in the Latin church, perhaps more in evidence in the monastic traditions to some extent...Cassian's children and Carmel's children...but it has been mostly suppressed over time.

-A- Your idea is apparently that, because the church should think with one mind and speak with one voice, the Ultramontanist theory and Latin constructs should prevail everywhere. I suppose then, when you see Orthodox theology stubbornly present among the Eastern Catholics you would like to see it go away, suppressed somehow perhaps. I imagine it can seem like the camel's nose under the tent!

Your actions on the internet have clearly shown a strong desire to discredit and silence the traditional Faith of the Eastern Catholics.

-B- My idea is that...because the church should think with one mind and speak with one voice, the Orthodox theology should prevail everywhere. When I see Orthodox thinking flourishing in certain corners of the Roman Catholic Communion I am encouraged. I really hope that it IS the camel's nose under the tent, because the best way for us to restore communion and be ONE again is to come to a common understanding. In other words, I want to see the Roman Catholic Communion open up to it's own ancient Orthodox roots, and that is not going to happen if every time a Roman Catholic happens to come to an Orthodox understanding of his Faith, he leaves it for Holy Orthodoxy.

He needs to bloom where he is planted, his Orthodoxy should...ideally...flourish and grow right there...and it should spread, putting in deep roots among the people, and the bishops and Cardinals of your church. That might be bad news according to your understanding, but it would be the restoration of Holy Truth to me.

The Roman Communion has already recognized the Orthodox Catholic theology as valid, this is a great first step, a necessary acknowledgment of Orthodox Truth and a huge concession. Rome only continues to ask that Orthodox submit to the Ultramontanist theory of church governance. (It is this last point that is being discussed in high level dialog these days, a major barrier from the Orthodox point of view to be sure, but not the only one.)

I want to encourage the Orthodox mind among Catholics, I want to see it grow. Many Orthodox do not agree with my position, and I respect their point of view as well, because they do not want to see Orthodox people trapped under the Ultramontanist Papacy. They would prefer to see them come out into the fresh air and the light of day.

But as I see it the schism will never end if all we do is take individuals from each others churches indefinitely. This horrible schism will move around on the map, but it will never go away.

Michael
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« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2008, 06:06:43 AM »

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did

Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.

I like your perspective on unity though but it can't happen by expecting the Latin Church to throw out the baby with the legalism.

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« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2008, 06:36:02 AM »

The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.
I thought holding orthodox doctrine was essential to being Orthodox.....
It seems "Orthodox" means everything, anything and nothing these days....
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« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2008, 09:38:34 AM »

Hello,

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

I couldn't disagree with this more (but you probably already knew that Wink).
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« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2008, 09:52:17 AM »

Hello Joab,  Grin
Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.
Thank you for your opinion, but the teaching office of the church resides in the church.

Holy Orthodoxy has real bishops and they teach the Faith once received through the body of Apostles. The Holy Magisterium subsists in the Holy Orthodox church, to imply otherwise is disingenuous. Once separated from Holy Orthodoxy, the Western church has steadily introduced a complex of ideas that cannot have come through the Apostles.

The very claim that the teaching function of the church is monopolized in some way by a group of bishops that corporately assent to error makes no sense.

Your brother in Christ,
Michael
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« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2008, 09:54:28 AM »

Hello,

I couldn't disagree with this more (but you probably already knew that Wink).
I would expect nothing less from you, my friend  Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2008, 10:02:48 AM »

Incorrect perspective Michael. The Latin Church remains Orthodox because it retains the Magisterium which is essential to being orthodox.

You're getting things completely backwards.  Assuming, solely for the sake of argument, that the Latin Church remains orthodox and retains the Magisterium, it retains it because it is orthodox.  It is not orthodox because it retains it.  The authority to teach follows the safeguarding of true doctrine, not the other way around.  The order you described is a blank check for the Latin Church to define whatever it wants as correct doctrine, a situation that is quite real.
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« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2008, 12:03:31 PM »

Goodness I am getting more and more popular. Especially with you. I annoyed you as East and West over at Catholic Answers and now here as Papist.  Wink

I didn't state that you are popular  Roll Eyes, well, nobody hates you.  Grin

I tend to agree with Papist's observation: it seems that the most "popular" Catholics posters are the ones who makes the most ultra-montane assertions. (Witness, for example, the "popularity" that Credo.InDeum and Athanasios have been enjoying at the St. John Chrysostom: Supporter of modern (Vatican I) Papal Primacy? thread.)

The early Latin church was Orthodox, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.

I would say rather that we can discuss to infinity whether that's true or not.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2008, 12:54:10 PM »

Hello,

I tend to agree with Papist's observation: it seems that the most "popular" Catholics posters are the ones who makes the most ultra-montane assertions. (Witness, for example, the "popularity" that Credo.InDeum and Athanasios have been enjoying at the St. John Chrysostom: Supporter of modern (Vatican I) Papal Primacy? thread.)

I didn't know I was vying in a popularity contest. They do love me, they really really love me.  Grin
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« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2008, 01:21:13 PM »

I didn't state that you are popular  Roll Eyes, well, nobody hates you.  Grin

I respect you for the strong stand you take, supporting your beliefs as you do. I also can agree that their is only one Truth. Many Orthodox feel just as strongly that we proclaim different Faiths (and for essentially the same reasons you might give).

I just don't agree with your choices...had you been Orthodox like your ancestors, I think we would get along great.  This is where I think you have spun out of orbit.
I don't agree with your choices.. had you been Catholic like your ancestors, I think we would get along great. This is where I think you have spun out of Orbit.
The early Latin church was Catholic, the modern one is not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.
The parts of your Communion which exhibit strong traces of it's former Orthodoxy are mostly clustered in the Byzantine-rite Particular churches and to some extent in the other Eastern Catholic Particular churches, but are a distinct minority even there. There is some trace in the Latin church, perhaps more in evidence in the monastic traditions to some extent...Cassian's children and Carmel's children...but it has been mostly suppressed over time.
The early Eastern Churchs in communion with the partriarchs of constantinople, jerusalem, antioch, etc. were Catholic, the modern ones are not. We can discuss to infinity how that might have happened but the fact remains that it did.
The parts of your Commuion which exibit strong traces of its former Catholicity are prevelant through out your Church. These include the sacraments, Apostolicity, and a true divine liturgy. Also, we can look at the Eastern Orthodox council of Jerusalem that occured after the protestant reformation that defines dogma in extremely Catholic terms. Unfortunately, this orthodox and Catholic leaning has been lost in the modern Eastern Orthodox Church due to a strong ani-Catholicism.
Unfortunately innovations such as the essence energies distinction, the hesychast movement, relegating to the bishop of Rome a primacy of nothing, and the rejection of our God given reason when dealing with theology have moved Eastern Orthodoxy further and further away from the true faith. It is extremely unfortunate that some Catholic Churches of the East are being dragged down into this. We need to stop trying to capitulate to the errors of Eastern Orthodoxy and profess a unified faith, the true faith, the Catholic faith for only truth will bring unity.
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« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2008, 01:51:58 PM »

I heard the line out of Vegas is Latin Catholics by 6 1/2 over Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2008, 01:53:21 PM »

I don't agree with your choices.. had you been Catholic like your ancestors, I think we would get along great. We can discuss to infinity how that Unfortunately innovations such as the essence energies distinction, the hesychast movement, relegating to the bishop of Rome a primacy of nothing, and the rejection of our God given reason when dealing with theology have moved Eastern Orthodoxy further and further away from the true faith. It is extremely unfortunate that some Catholic Churches of the East are being dragged down into this. We need to stop trying to capitulate to the errors of Eastern Orthodoxy and profess a unified faith, the true faith, the Catholic faith for only truth will bring unity.

YAWN.
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« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2008, 03:00:50 PM »

YAWN.
If you are sleepy, perhaps you should take a nap.
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« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2008, 04:07:30 PM »

Unfortunately innovations such as the essence energies distinction, the hesychast movement, relegating to the bishop of Rome a primacy of nothing, and the rejection of our God given reason when dealing with theology have moved Eastern Orthodoxy further and further away from the true faith.

Take the debate to another thread.

We need to stop trying to capitulate to the errors of Eastern Orthodoxy and profess a unified faith, the true faith, the Catholic faith for only truth will bring unity. 

LOL.  The "errors of Eastern Orthodoxy?"  Obviously your own bishops consider your church to be the one in error, when they try to define the filioque differently than their predecessors did, and even omit it; when they now accept Palamism after erroneously rejecting it at first.

How did your bishops accept the strange teachings of the outcast Balsamon against the right-thinking Palamas when the disagreement broke out?  Oh, but then they changed their mind, so obviously they found their initial understanding to be in error.  How have your bishops changed the primacy of Rome from it's original beauty to the monster that it has become?  How have they mutated the understanding of the early Church (which was united in communion and understanding) into the non-apostolic see of today?
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« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2008, 09:47:31 PM »

Unfortunately innovations such as the essence energies distinction, the hesychast movement....

You should know better than to bring up Palamism again (without doing more research) when you have already had to eat your words once before on this forum concerning the issue.  What Cleveland says concerning Palamism is true.  (See the preface by Jaroslav Pelikan in GregoryPalamas: the Triads, New York:Paulist Press, 1983 , for more evidence on the growing acceptance of Palamism in the West.)  What's more, Eastern Catholics are now allowed to celebrate St. Greogry Palamas, and some do. 

Here's a little something for you to look at as a beginning when it comes to the Orthodox understanding of the Roman primacy (which is far from an "ïnnovation", as history reveals).

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14289.0.html
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« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2008, 10:00:06 PM »

Obviously your own bishops consider your church to be the one in error, when they try to define the filioque differently than their predecessors did, and even omit it;

I assume you're referring to the recommendation by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation (2003) "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

I most certainly support that recommendation, but I don't agree that it amounts to an admission that the Catholic Church is "in error". Rather, I would say that the Catholic members of the Consultation are "rediscovering" (for lack of a better word) the policy of Pope Leo III:

Quote
While Leo III affirmed the orthodoxy of the term Filioque , and approved its use in catechesis and personal professions of faith, he explicitly disapproved its inclusion in the text of the Creed of 381, since the Fathers of that Council - who were, he observes, no less inspired by the Holy Spirit than the bishops who had gathered at Aachen - had chosen not to include it.

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« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2008, 10:17:07 PM »

I assume you're referring to the recommendation by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation (2003) "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

I most certainly support that recommendation, but I don't agree that it amounts to an admission that the Catholic Church is "in error". Rather, I would say that the Catholic members of the Consultation are "rediscovering" (for lack of a better word) the policy of Pope Leo III. 

Well, that, and the fact that the Pope has in fact not said the filioque himself when in the room with the Orthodox.

Look, you might think it's all well and good to say that sometimes we can include it, and sometimes we don't have to, but that misses the mindset of the entire Eastern Church, as well as that of the Ecumenical Councils which collected and affirmed the Creed - the only things to be added are those which are necessary to the faith that can not be omitted; this is why the Synods directed that the Creed not be changed after the Second Ecumenical Council.
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« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2008, 10:24:35 PM »

I assume you're referring to the recommendation by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation (2003) "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

I most certainly support that recommendation, but I don't agree that it amounts to an admission that the Catholic Church is "in error". Rather, I would say that the Catholic members of the Consultation are "rediscovering" (for lack of a better word) the policy of Pope Leo III:

God bless,
Peter.

What you site is one example of the rehabilitation of the Creed "sans filioque" (excuse my mixture of French and Latin Wink) in the Western Chuch.  However, there was another quite long, somewhat convoluted article issued by a Vatican journal that seemed to basically state, IIRC, that "both the usage of the filioque and its non-usage are correct.  The Eastern Church was right to be somewhat disquited by its use, but its usage is still correct, because its usage doesn't mean what the Eastern Church was afraid it might mean."  I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but a pattern I detect in official and quasi-official proclamations from Vatican sources, whenever that source wants to supplant an earlier teaching is to say something like: "my goodness!  That teaching on such-and-such back in 1537 was so excellent.  However, we have something really excellent to say regarding this today, with a different emphasis that looks at another side of the issue..."  In this way, it seems that the Vatican can basically relegate earlier teachings to obscurity (or perhaps semi-obscurity)  if they wish, without denying that what was said was true.  

Cleveland may have something more to say on this issue, of course.  I don't remember the name of the Vatican journal where I saw the other thing on the filioque, unfortunately.

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« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2008, 10:39:08 PM »

Look, you might think it's all well and good to say that sometimes we can include it, and sometimes we don't have to, but that misses the mindset of the entire Eastern Church, as well as that of the Ecumenical Councils which collected and affirmed the Creed - the only things to be added are those which are necessary to the faith that can not be omitted; this is why the Synods directed that the Creed not be changed after the Second Ecumenical Council.

A very important point.  The apophatic approach is very important for the Orthodox as a means of avoiding over-definition.  A God who can be defined by human beings is not God at all. 
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« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2008, 11:40:28 PM »

What you site is one example of the rehabilitation of the Creed "sans filioque" (excuse my mixture of French and Latin Wink) in the Western Chuch.  However, there was another quite long, somewhat convoluted article issued by a Vatican journal that seemed to basically state, IIRC, that "both the usage of the filioque and its non-usage are correct.

Is it "The Filioque: What Is at Stake?" by Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J? If so, I can completely understand why Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics would take issue with that article. (Prior to reading that article, I had read Dulles' article about the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue on justification. I had found that to be a very reasonable and balanced take on ecumenical dialogue, so it was something of a shock to me to read what he has to say about the filioque!)

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Peter.
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« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2008, 11:54:15 PM »

Hello,

Look, you might think it's all well and good to say that sometimes we can include it, and sometimes we don't have to, but that misses the mindset of the entire Eastern Church, as well as that of the Ecumenical Councils which collected and affirmed the Creed - the only things to be added are those which are necessary to the faith that can not be omitted; this is why the Synods directed that the Creed not be changed after the Second Ecumenical Council.

Shouldn't we have a separate thread for the Creed and the Filioque?
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« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2008, 12:20:46 AM »

^For the moment, I will let this thread continue on these subjects, since they are of concern when addressing the relationship between Eastern and Latin Catholics as well as the relationship between Orthodox and Catholic Christians.  If it is deemed necessary to do so, a moderator may split the thread later on.
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« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2008, 02:33:48 AM »

Is it "The Filioque: What Is at Stake?" by Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J? If so, I can completely understand why Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics would take issue with that article. (Prior to reading that article, I had read Dulles' article about the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue on justification. I had found that to be a very reasonable and balanced take on ecumenical dialogue, so it was something of a shock to me to read what he has to say about the filioque!)

It looks like that might be the article all right, except that it looks even longer than I remember it to have been!
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« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2008, 04:55:44 AM »

You're getting things completely backwards.  Assuming, solely for the sake of argument, that the Latin Church remains orthodox and retains the Magisterium, it retains it because it is orthodox.  It is not orthodox because it retains it.  The authority to teach follows the safeguarding of true doctrine, not the other way around.  The order you described is a blank check for the Latin Church to define whatever it wants as correct doctrine, a situation that is quite real.

I would agree with that completely, except its not a blank check, its apostolic and ecclesiastical authority from Jesus which is why it remains stalward and persists regardless of who withdraws their conciliarity. A bright spot though is the door is always open for those who withdrew to return in obedience. The days of a possible bad pope are long gone. The layity who are more active than ever and modern communications wouldn't stand for it.

Sorry for being so blunt, please forgive me.

Peace.
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« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2008, 08:39:01 AM »

Oh my God... Here's a rap -
To all you papists,
I'm a Roman Catholic
I'm as orthodox as can be
more orthodox than the Holy Father in the Holy See
What I'm not, I try not to be,
A pain in the butt, it just ain't me.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. Orthodox... Roman Catholic... You've got almost everything right and I mean EVERYTHING! Say whatever you want about the Orthodox, their imperfections blah blah. At least they recognise the Pope as FIRST AMONG EQUALS and not as THE MAN ON THE STREET or THE ANTICHRIST. Take it easy people. Jesus said "peace be with you" and our Lord sure didn't mean taking the p*** out of people for no specific reason. Seriously, how low can you go? Remember, whats good for you isn't good for them so take a chill pill. We've got better things to do than argue about this. We'll still get to Heaven in the end. Its not the Pope who saves, its Jesus Christ. Peace out.
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« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2008, 10:03:58 AM »

Hello,

^For the moment, I will let this thread continue on these subjects, since they are of concern when addressing the relationship between Eastern and Latin Catholics as well as the relationship between Orthodox and Catholic Christians.  If it is deemed necessary to do so, a moderator may split the thread later on.


O.K.!
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« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2008, 06:48:35 PM »

I read elsewhere on a very popular zblog that the Pope was going to modify the Good Friday prayers in the '62 Missal... Tongue, I doubt if the Eastern Churches will ...
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« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2008, 06:51:58 PM »


...if standing with the Pope warrants me to be called an ultra-montanist - you can call me that any day...
That's fine, it's an appropriate descriptor.

That's how I shall know you.  Smiley

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« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2008, 06:12:55 AM »

MODERATION:
Can someone please excplain to me what this thread is about?
I thought it was about Eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics.
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« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2008, 03:15:45 AM »

I'm going to ask everyone posting here to make an effort to stay on topic.  I've just had to split this thread a second time, and this thread itself was split off from another one.  So please, let's try to keep the discussion focussed on differences between Latin and Eastern Catholics, with some reference to how this relates to the Orthodox.  If I have to split this thread again, I may well lock it.

Thank you.

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« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2008, 04:29:56 PM »

Well, quite simply, I believe that theosis doesn't suddenly stop when we die but continues after death.
-Peter.
Theosis is both achieved in this life, while it simultaneously stretches into eternity.  But -- of course -- Aquinas denies that the vision of God, i.e., what he mistakenly calls a vision of the divine essence, can be seen in this life (cf. Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q. 12, A. 11), and this is contrary to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, who hold that the uncreated light / energy of God can be seen by the Hesychast while in the wayfaring state.
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« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2008, 12:48:13 AM »

Theosis is both achieved in this life, while it simultaneously stretches into eternity.  But -- of course -- Aquinas denies that the vision of God, i.e., what he mistakenly calls a vision of the divine essence, can be seen in this life (cf. Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q. 12, A. 11), and this is contrary to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, who hold that the uncreated light / energy of God can be seen by the Hesychast while in the wayfaring state.

Do you have a definition of Theosis and the wayfaring state?

Why is Aquinas mistaken?

Peace.
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« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2008, 05:22:27 PM »

Theosis is both achieved in this life, while it simultaneously stretches into eternity.  But -- of course -- Aquinas denies that the vision of God, i.e., what he mistakenly calls a vision of the divine essence, can be seen in this life (cf. Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q. 12, A. 11), and this is contrary to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, who hold that the uncreated light / energy of God can be seen by the Hesychast while in the wayfaring state.
Yeah, they can see it by breathing funny, repeating the same prayer over and over again, and putting their bodies in a special position. Sounds more like a psychosomatic response than "seeing God".
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« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2008, 05:24:47 PM »

Yeah, they can see it by breathing funny, repeating the same prayer over and over again, and putting their bodies in a special position. Sounds more like a psychosomatic response than "seeing God".
You'll never know.
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« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2008, 12:39:29 AM »

You'll never know.

Sadly yes.
Without realizing it, he just keeps putting more coals on his head.
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« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2012, 12:01:31 PM »

Dear Papist,

It seems to me you're exaggerating the situation. I would say that Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics already profess the same faith, but we ought to also profess the same creed. In the fact, in 2003 the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation recommended "that the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use."

God bless,
Peter.
The problem is that SOME, not all, Eastern Churches reject the concept of the filioque, the Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility etc. Perhaps they would word the problem by stating that the Latin Church espouses these dogmas. But either way, we are professing differing faiths.

Parallel theologies in one religion......Is that unity?

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