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Author Topic: Debates on Evolution, Rudeness, and Polite Behavior  (Read 1590 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ebor
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« on: December 30, 2007, 04:53:12 PM »

Why are you so concerned if I appear rude,

Because the words on the computer screen are *all* that come through from other people.  There is no tone, no body-language, no expression that can make differences in how the words are percieved. Emoticons can be used to indicate roughly that someone is joking or sad or happy or other states.  But that is not the same thing as what can be gotten and understood when speaking with others face-to-face.   

Also, is it correct that English is not your first language?  That is the impression that I get when reading your posts.  As a non-native speaker/writer it is possible that you do not know some of the ways that English should or should not be used in discourse. People have tried to tell you that some of your posting habits come across as rude.  In English the use of the ! adds strong emphasis and in written sentences directed at another person it can make a question into a command and an declarative sentence into an order or insult.   I am not trying to be harsh, here and apologize if it seems that way.  I am trying to find ways to improve communications; that is one thing that helps in understanding others and getting ones own point across.  Do you want people here to read your posts? Do you want them to read and understand your point of view? 

Also, on the principle of "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"  Do you, Christodoulos, like it when people are rude to you in person?  Do you like to have people make commands or demands of you and they are persons that you do not know?  Are there ways of speaking or writing in your native language (Russian perhaps?) that would be counted as offensive and rude in dealing with other people, things that courteous people would not say?  Imagine a stranger demanding personal information from you that they have no cause to know.  How would you feel about that?

Finally, if one wants to get an idea across to others, the way it is said or written can affect that.  People are less likely to want to read or listen to someone who is purposely being rude to them.  Do you want people to pay attention to your posts, to your lines of thought?  If so, courtesy can help in that.  Or as an old folk saying goes "You catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar."

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I think some of your posts are more rude than mine ( only think about anti-semitism,......)

Differing opinions or ideas are not the same as being rude.  Iirc, Nektarios was writing of *his own* experiences. They are what he saw and heard.

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and why should it be unusual to ask you of your juristiction, when you call me and Vladyka Mark "Branch theorists" why should I not know yours ?

But you did not ask. The way you wrote it was a demand for the information, abrupt and emphatic with the !.  Granted learning the subtleties of a foreign language can be difficult.  People trying to explain to you how the post was rude were trying to be helpful to you in the use of English.  You seemed, pardon me, to take offense at the correction.

I apologize for anything in this post that might upset or offend you.  If you will please point out any specific places where you think I am being rude I will apologize and attempt to correct the sentences.

With respect,

Ebor
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:13:12 AM by FrChris » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 05:11:02 PM »

It is hard to read - but when you think about Blessed Seraphim this way - ok you are a modern biologist !

That is, I think, an ad hominem addressed to Heorhij.

He and other "modern biologists" are knowledgeable in their field.  When they speak or write of that they are the experts.  Fr. Seraphim Rose was not.  

As far as I know, Serephim Rose did not have any kind of serious education in a scientific field.  He had an advanced degree in Oriental Languages and studied philosophy.  He was intelligent but lacked the training and education to claim authority in Biology or Geology or Paleontology or other scientific areas of knowledge.  Yet he wrote and is taken by some to be an expert.  Those who truely do know a subject can tell when someone does not understand or is misunderstanding things.

To be clear: a person claiming authority needs to demonstrate that they really know what they're talking about;  I would accept Einstein's or Richard Feynman's words and ideas on such thing as physics or mathematics.  But they would have to show that they knew what they were talking about before being accepted as an authority on, for example, growing orchids or raising cattle or literature.  Anyone can say/write things; but that doesn't make them a reliable source of information.  

Ebor
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 05:46:08 PM »

Because the words on the computer screen are *all* that come through from other people.  There is no tone, no body-language, no expression that can make differences in how the words are percieved. Emoticons can be used to indicate roughly that someone is joking or sad or happy or other states.  But that is not the same thing as what can be gotten and understood when speaking with others face-to-face.   

Also, is it correct that English is not your first language?  That is the impression that I get when reading your posts.  As a non-native speaker/writer it is possible that you do not know some of the ways that English should or should not be used in discourse. People have tried to tell you that some of your posting habits come across as rude.  In English the use of the ! adds strong emphasis and in written sentences directed at another person it can make a question into a command and an declarative sentence into an order or insult.   I am not trying to be harsh, here and apologize if it seems that way.  I am trying to find ways to improve communications; that is one thing that helps in understanding others and getting ones own point across.  Do you want people here to read your posts? Do you want them to read and understand your point of view? 

Also, on the principle of "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"  Do you, Christodoulos, like it when people are rude to you in person?  Do you like to have people make commands or demands of you and they are persons that you do not know?  Are there ways of speaking or writing in your native language (Russian perhaps?) that would be counted as offensive and rude in dealing with other people, things that courteous people would not say?  Imagine a stranger demanding personal information from you that they have no cause to know.  How would you feel about that?

Finally, if one wants to get an idea across to others, the way it is said or written can affect that.  People are less likely to want to read or listen to someone who is purposely being rude to them.  Do you want people to pay attention to your posts, to your lines of thought?  If so, courtesy can help in that.  Or as an old folk saying goes "You catch more flies with honey then you do with vinegar."

Differing opinions or ideas are not the same as being rude.  Iirc, Nektarios was writing of *his own* experiences. They are what he saw and heard.

But you did not ask. The way you wrote it was a demand for the information, abrupt and emphatic with the !.  Granted learning the subtleties of a foreign language can be difficult.  People trying to explain to you how the post was rude were trying to be helpful to you in the use of English.  You seemed, pardon me, to take offense at the correction.

I apologize for anything in this post that might upset or offend you.  If you will please point out any specific places where you think I am being rude I will apologize and attempt to correct the sentences.

With respect,

Ebor

God bless !

Such nonsense - you will find other more rude posts ( even with blasphemy) and no one has any problem with. It's not a language problem- it is only an excuse.

In CHRIST

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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2007, 08:26:21 PM »

God bless !

Such nonsense - you will find other more rude posts ( even with blasphemy) and no one has any problem with. It's not a language problem- it is only an excuse.

In CHRIST


If you have seen so many rude posts, some even with blasphemy, as you claim, why have you not reported even one of them to the moderators?  We moderators are here for your benefit, as well, so please don't feel that you have to meet the rudeness with your own means.
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2007, 09:19:20 PM »

God bless !

Such nonsense - you will find other more rude posts ( even with blasphemy) and no one has any problem with. It's not a language problem- it is only an excuse.

In CHRIST

Christodoulos,

I have no idea what your native language is, but in English, if we respond to a thoughtful and charitable post such as Ebor's with an expression of "such nonsense", it is considered extremely rude.

Your English is very good and you seem to use the language confidently. However, your posts are, for the most part, extremely abrasive. By your own admission, this blunt style of communication is not a *lack of language skills*. That being the case, could it be a lack of charity for your opponent? Shocked

I have noticed that in some language cultures, people tend to speak without tact or sensitivity and that's fine - within that culture. To quote an old adage; "When in Rome do as the Romans". However, this is an English-speaking forum and English is the language of diplomacy. Grin

As a matter of interest, do you ever read your own posts and try to critically examine them from the point of view of the English-speaking recipient? If you do so, it might be that you will notice that when you are anxious to make a point, you forget to soften the blows.

I hope that my comments are helpful to you.

God be with you.

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2007, 09:38:49 PM »

Christodoulos,

I have no idea what your native language is, but in English, if we respond to a thoughtful and charitable post such as Ebor's with an expression of "such nonsense", it is considered extremely rude.

Your English is very good and you seem to use the language confidently. However, your posts are, for the most part, extremely abrasive. By your own admission, this blunt style of communication is not a *lack of language skills*. That being the case, could it be a lack of charity for your opponent? Shocked

I have noticed that in some language cultures, people tend to speak without tact or sensitivity and that's fine - within that culture. To quote an old adage; "When in Rome do as the Romans". However, this is an English-speaking forum and English is the language of diplomacy. Grin

As a matter of interest, do you ever read your own posts and try to critically examine them from the point of view of the English-speaking recipient? If you do so, it might be that you will notice that when you are anxious to make a point, you forget to soften the blows.

I hope that my comments are helpful to you.

God be with you.

God bless !

I still think it was nonsense - because even when my posts are "rude" so are others and I can not see that anyone has a problem with such posts. To call a great blessed (holy) Father of our times stupid idiot ( or holy cow) is more than rude ( perhaps only for me ), or to answer my posts with accusing of athonite monks to be anti-semits ( when I was writing of the Holy Fathers and Holy Synods) and neurotics with conspiracy theories and call others- even the whole rocor branch theorists ( which is a condemned heresy), or to strikethrough the word God and refuse a blessing or to ask who gave me the authority to pray for a blessing and to blame me because I made a mistake in spelling and orthography ( do you think that's charity ) to say I should perhaps choose buddha or Rastafarian's... is not rude ? I could go on with such ....or should I tell what was said about some miracles of our Most Holy Theotokos ?

So judge all with the same measure !

In CHRIST

It is not because my posts are rude - it is because many (modernists ) people ( not all) feel attacked by my "traditionalism" !
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 09:50:17 PM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2007, 10:10:17 PM »

To call a great blessed (holy) Father of our times stupid idiot ( or holy cow) is more than rude ( perhaps only for me )

Whether Seraphim Rose is a father of our times is hardly a unanimous opinion within the Orthodox Church.  The fact of the matter is that he died outside of the communion of the vast majority of other local churches.  He had nothing but scathing remarks for those who disagreed with his every little opinion, and many of our bishops and theologians simply don't agree with many of his conclusions.  To disagree with you that he is a "holy father" is not a matter of being rude or not - it is a difference of opinion.   

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or to answer my posts with accusing of athonite monks to be anti-semits ( when I was writing of the Holy Fathers and Holy Synods) and neurotics with conspiracy theories

That was my personal experience from my own travels to Mt. Athos and meeting many of the spiritual children of some of the Elders whom you cited (both lay and monastic).  Again this isn't meant to be rude, rather it was an explanation of what I am always cautious of statements coming from "elders".  Even the New Testament epistles warn us to always be vigilant.   

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and call others- even the whole rocor branch theorists ( which is a condemned heresy)

I believe the condemnation to be hypocritical when some elements within the ROCOR have practiced a branch theory among traditionalists of sorts.  Again this is not being rude, it is simply disagreeing with a position that you have taken.

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, or to strikethrough the word God

I find it ironic to invoke the Divine before every post and then be uncharitable in that very post.  I believe that is why several people have made comments on that.   

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and refuse a blessing or to ask who gave me the authority to pray for a blessing

That is not rude.  You may not have noticed that you are the only poster who starts every post in that manner.  Not even our two frequently posting post in that manner.  Hence, it is unusual and invites questions.

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and to blame me because I made a mistake in spelling and orthography ( do you think that's charity)

I questioned your orthography to clarify meaning, as I thought you had posted something you did not in fact mean.  And I made one comment about your spelling weeks ago.  I honestly had no idea it would have caused this much psychological anguish.

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to say I should perhaps choose buddha or Rastafarian's... is not rude ?

It is a commentary on the fact that Christ should be bring you peace and calm.  Instead agitation is very apparent. 

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I could go on with such ....or should I tell what was said about some miracles of our Most Holy Theotokos ?

To question and ask for reliable sources is not rude. 

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It is not because my posts are rude - it is because many (modernists ) people ( not all) feel attacked by my "traditionalism" !

I don't feel attacked in the least by your viewpoints.  But, I do enjoy discussing them.  To disagree with you or to ask for sources etc. is not being rude - it is simply having a discussion.  The Orthodox Church is a large and diverse communion and there is a great deal of room for differences of opinion. 
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2007, 10:37:42 PM »

God bless !

Quote
Whether Seraphim Rose is a father of our times is hardly a unanimous opinion within the Orthodox Church.  The fact of the matter is that he died outside of the communion of the vast majority of other local churches.  He had nothing but scathing remarks for those who disagreed with his every little opinion, and many of our bishops and theologians simply don't agree with many of his conclusions.  To disagree with you that he is a "holy father" is not a matter of being rude or not - it is a difference of opinion.


He is highly venerated throughout the orthodox world - sorry but to have another opinion and to call someone stupid idiot ( when we know that he is loved by many orthodox christians - how rude it must be for them ) and holy cow - there is a great difference.

Quote
That was my personal experience from my own travels to Mt. Athos and meeting many of the spiritual children of some of the Elders whom you cited (both lay and monastic).  Again this isn't meant to be rude, rather it was an explanation of what I am always cautious of statements coming from "elders".  Even the New Testament epistles warn us to always be vigilant.
   

Your "personal experience" is meaningless - what kind of argumentation ? Tell me please the names of these spiritual children so that I know. You could also have used the last sentence before.

Quote
I believe the condemnation to be hypocritical when some elements within the ROCOR have practiced a branch theory among traditionalists of sorts.  Again this is not being rude, it is simply disagreeing with a position that you have taken
.

It was rude- you called me and especially my Bishop and the rocor- Vladyka Mark - branch theorists- HERETICS ( and by the way you made a joke of the language switch into french - sorry but it was german THEORIE )
And by the way it is incorrect - but I have told you. In accusing me not to know the basic priniples of orthodox Ecclesiology - I think you do not know the Ecclesiology of the Cyprianites or other churches!

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I find it ironic to invoke the Divine before every post and then be uncharitable in that very post.  I believe that is why several people have made comments on that.
 

You strokethrough the word God and refuse a blessing Huh You could "ask" in an other way ! You only tried to provoke me and even went so far to stroke God.

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That is not rude.  You may not have noticed that you are the only poster who starts every post in that manner.  Not even our two frequently posting post in that manner.  Hence, it is unusual and invites questions.


It is rude - you only try to make excuses. We shoúld always ask for God's blessing and why others do not post in that manner - hmm when people do not pray or fast - should I also stop only because they do not ?

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I questioned your orthography to clarify meaning, as I thought you had posted something you did not in fact mean.  And I made one comment about your spelling weeks ago.  I honestly had no idea it would have caused this much psychological anguish.

No, no you blamed me for my mistakes and made jokes - Not that there is any wrong with that !

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It is a commentary on the fact that Christ should be bring you peace and calm.  Instead agitation is very apparent.
 

Oh it is not rude to say I should choose Buddha or anyone else - what excuse will you offer here?

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To question and ask for reliable sources is not rude.
 

It was not a question of sources it was blasphemy !

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I don't feel attacked in the least by your viewpoints.  But, I do enjoy discussing them.  To disagree with you or to ask for sources etc. is not being rude - it is simply having a discussion.  The Orthodox Church is a large and diverse communion and there is a great deal of room for differences of opinion.
 

There is no problem with disagreeing, but with accusing ( to call others superficial and be more concerned on spelling mistakes than on the content) and blaming and making jokes and than try to make excuses and ask for more charity - for me that is hypocrisy.



IN CHRIST
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 10:41:41 PM by Christodoulos » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2007, 11:05:38 PM »

Dear Christodoulous,

Let me just say that if you ask 9999 out of 10000 of my fellow Ukrainains who confess the Orthodox faith, who is Fr. Seraphim Rose, they will stare at you with their jaw down to their chest. On the other hand, if you ask them, who is Fr. Paisiy Velychkovs'ky, they will definitely know. When you ask them, who is Fr. Vasyl' Lypkivs'ky, probably half of them will know (or maybe even more than that). If you ask them, who is Fr. Alexander Men', definitely 98-99% of them will not just know, but say that that's the most eloquent and admirable and reverent and interesting of all Orthodox clerics who ever preached and wrote. Now ask 9999 American Orthodox, who is Velychkovs'ky or Lypkivs'ky or even Men'....

I am not in any way against the life "podvig" (spiritual achievement) of Fr. Seraphim Rose. And I really regret that I called him idiot, because that was too harsh and he does not deserve it. But I am sure that his figure is enormously, outrageously inflated in the West, and especially - and originally - in the USA, simply because he was a contemporary American and Westerner.

Really, really, really, please, learn some biology, some science... If you do, then you won't argue with the notion that water molecules consist of atoms of hydrogen and oxygen in the ratio 2:1, bonded by polar covalent bonds (see physics and chemistry textbooks for details), or with the notion that biological species (including Homo sapiens) emerge as a result of evolution (see biology textbooks for details). You certainly are free not to, granted...

Best wishes to you, brother.

George
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2007, 11:19:10 PM »

Dear Christodoulous,

Let me just say that if you ask 9999 out of 10000 of my fellow Ukrainains who confess the Orthodox faith, who is Fr. Seraphim Rose, they will stare at you with their jaw down to their chest. On the other hand, if you ask them, who is Fr. Paisiy Velychkovs'ky, they will definitely know. When you ask them, who is Fr. Vasyl' Lypkivs'ky, probably half of them will know (or maybe even more than that). If you ask them, who is Fr. Alexander Men', definitely 98-99% of them will not just know, but say that that's the most eloquent and admirable and reverent and interesting of all Orthodox clerics who ever preached and wrote. Now ask 9999 American Orthodox, who is Velychkovs'ky or Lypkivs'ky or even Men'....

I am not in any way against the life "podvig" (spiritual achievement) of Fr. Seraphim Rose. And I really regret that I called him idiot, because that was too harsh and he does not deserve it. But I am sure that his figure is enormously, outrageously inflated in the West, and especially - and originally - in the USA, simply because he was a contemporary American and Westerner.

Really, really, really, please, learn some biology, some science... If you do, then you won't argue with the notion that water molecules consist of atoms of hydrogen and oxygen in the ratio 2:1, bonded by polar covalent bonds (see physics and chemistry textbooks for details), or with the notion that biological species (including Homo sapiens) emerge as a result of evolution (see biology textbooks for details). You certainly are free not to, granted...

Best wishes to you, brother.

George

I forgot to mention Fr. Deacon Andrei Kuraev who lectured on evolution in Russia, Ukraine and other republics of the former USSR.
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2007, 11:20:21 PM »

Christ is born! Glorify Him!


He is highly venerated throughout the orthodox world - sorry but to have another opinion and to call someone stupid idiot ( when we know that he is loved by many orthodox christians - how rude it must be for them ) and holy cow - there is a great difference.

I must admit to not knowing that Fr Seraphim was quite so highly venerated throughout the Orthodox world, and if he is, that shouldn't stop anyone from disagreeing with his erroneous opinions on Evolutionary Biology.  

And it might be pedantic on my part, but the poster didn't call Fr Seraphim a stupid idiot - he called him an idiot, and that only in refererence to his comments on Evolotionary biology. How would you describe a person who speaks with such "authority" and yet in complete ignorance on matters that are outside their area of expertise?  Plus the poster has very graciously apologised for using the term "idiot".

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Your "personal experience" is meaningless -

Since when has Nektarios' "personal experience" become meaningless; especially as you are yourself referencing your "personal experience" within this forum to make the claims you do?

And from my "personal experience" within Orthodoxy, it is considered out of line for a person other than a priest or bishop to dispense blessings.

God be with us all.

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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2007, 12:08:36 AM »

God bless !
 

He is highly venerated throughout the orthodox world - sorry but to have another opinion and to call someone stupid idiot ( when we know that he is loved by many orthodox christians - how rude it must be for them ) and holy cow - there is a great difference.
   

Your "personal experience" is meaningless - what kind of argumentation ? Tell me please the names of these spiritual children so that I know. You could also have used the last sentence before.
.

It was rude- you called me and especially my Bishop and the rocor- Vladyka Mark - branch theorists- HERETICS ( and by the way you made a joke of the language switch into french - sorry but it was german THEORIE )
And by the way it is incorrect - but I have told you. In accusing me not to know the basic priniples of orthodox Ecclesiology - I think you do not know the Ecclesiology of the Cyprianites or other churches!
 

You strokethrough the word God and refuse a blessing Huh You could "ask" in an other way ! You only tried to provoke me and even went so far to stroke God.
 

It is rude - you only try to make excuses. We shoúld always ask for God's blessing and why others do not post in that manner - hmm when people do not pray or fast - should I also stop only because they do not ?

No, no you blamed me for my mistakes and made jokes - Not that there is any wrong with that !
 

Oh it is not rude to say I should choose Buddha or anyone else - what excuse will you offer here?
 

It was not a question of sources it was blasphemy !
 

There is no problem with disagreeing, but with accusing ( to call others superficial and be more concerned on spelling mistakes than on the content) and blaming and making jokes and than try to make excuses and ask for more charity - for me that is hypocrisy.



IN CHRIST


Christodolous, you have been repeatedly asked by moderators and forum members to take your personal disputes with members to the PM system or report offending messages to the moderators.  Please do so immediately. 
Veniamin, FFA Moderator
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2007, 12:17:44 AM »

This thread has been locked again due to the personal attacks going on yet again, pending moderatorial review.  Since we apparently have to spell it out, please do not try to circumvent the lock by starting new threads on the topic.
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« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:13:58 AM by FrChris » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 12:17:22 AM »

We'll be opening this thread---as well as the original thread---and I will again remind people:

An ad hominem attack is an attack against a person, and is not tolerated.
A debate is discussing information in a post, and is encouraged.

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:18:27 AM by FrChris » Logged

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