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Author Topic: New OC.net titles  (Read 18130 times) Average Rating: 0
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FrChris
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« on: January 02, 2008, 12:44:35 AM »

Forum members,

With great joy, I have the privilege to announce to all who read this message that, in response to requests to have OC.net posting titles beyond that of Archon, we have implemented a new and expanded system to keep up with our frequent posters!

LEVEL                    # POSTS NEEDED

Newbie                       0
Jr. Member                 25
Member                     100
Sr. Member               450
Elder                      1000
High Elder               1500
OC.net guru            2000
Archon                    2500
Protokentarchos -    3500
Merarches -             4500
Taxiarches -            5500
Hoplitarches -          6500
Stratopedarches -    8000
Protostrator -          9500
Protospatharios -     11000
Tourmarches -         12500
Hypatos -                14000
Strategos -              16000
Domestikos tou thematos - 18000
Domestikos ton Scholon -   20000
Megas Domestikos -          22500
Exarchos -                      26000

This new system has already taken effect, and already it has had an effect: several of our posters have titles beyond that of Archon!

Long live OC.net, as 2008 starts yet another record breaking year!
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 02:02:18 AM »

Now that this has been up for a while, I want to torture (I mean, faciltitate discussion  Wink ) among the OC.net readership by asking y'all these questions:

Where are these titles originally from?
What do they mean?
When were they used originally?
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 12:45:12 PM »

The "top" (i.e. highest posting level) one is pretty easy:

Exarchos (Greek): It's the Eastern Roman title for a provincial governor.  He acted on the Emperor's behalf in managing one of the outlying provinces.  When the armies were in his province, he directed their movements and assigned them missions.  Otherwise, he was the supreme ruler of the province (just below the Emperor).
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 05:10:31 AM »

Now that this has been up for a while, I want to torture (I mean, faciltitate discussion  Wink ) among the OC.net readership by asking y'all these questions:

Where are these titles originally from?
What do they mean?
When were they used originally?

I know most off the top of my head and most are incuded in the Strategikon, will provide references for the others.

Protokentarchos -    3500

Bascally a centurion.

Quote
Merarches -             4500

Commander of a cavalry division.

Quote
Taxiarches -            5500

Commander of an infantry division (wouldn't this be a lower rank than Meraches, at least after the time of Maurice? Not sure, just asking.)

Quote
Hoplitarches -          6500

Overall infantry commander.

Quote
Stratopedarches -    8000

Commander of logistics, traditional English equivalent would be a 'Major General'; not sure what position they held in the hierarchy of the Roman armies.

Quote
Protostrator -          9500

A master of the horses, or first horseman: overall calvary commander, later the overall commander of an army

Quote
Protospatharios -     11000

Senior officer in the Imperial Guard.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/LX/ByzantineAaristocracyAndBureaucracy.html

Quote
Tourmarches -         12500

Commander of a Tourma, or divison, higher officer than the Taxiarches, who commanded a smaller division; but should be a lesser tank than Hoplitarches, possibly the Stratopedarches, and certainly the Protostrator.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/LX/ByzantineAaristocracyAndBureaucracy.html

Quote
Hypatos -                14000

'the ruler of a Tyrrhenian city-state, usually translated into Latin as consul'

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/LX/ByzantineAaristocracyAndBureaucracy.html

Quote
Strategos -              16000

Overall commander of an army, eventually tantamount to Protostrator.

Quote
Domestikos tou thematos - 18000

A theater commander, there were two, one for Europe and one for Asia

Quote
Domestikos ton Scholon -   20000

Commander of the Scholae, the Emperor's personal mounted Guard (Constantine's replacement for the Praetorian Guard), generally regarded as highest ranking officer in the Military. I don't know if he technically outranked the 'Megas Domestikos', but certainly had more political and practical military authority. It was the one rank that often lead to the position of Emperor.

Quote
Megas Domestikos -          22500

Overall commander of the army.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Medieval/LX/ByzantineAaristocracyAndBureaucracy.html

(? He certainly didn't have authority over the Domestikos ton Scholon, the Emperor barely had that)

Quote
Exarchos -                      26000

Governor of a remore province.



I certainly wecome the extending of the ranking system, though I do question some of the rankings.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 12:23:15 PM »

Is the Strategikon available in English?
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 12:38:11 PM »

GiC,

ISTM that the Taxiarches-Toumarches-Merarches thing can be resolved by us (switching the names).

I think the Megas Domestikos at least on paper was higher than the Domestikos ton Scholon, but it was honorary at best in the mid to late Empire.
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 12:50:29 PM »

It seems that GiC's recommendation is to change the rankings to the following order (setting aside, for a moment, the question about the Megas Domestikos):

Protokentarchos -    3500
Taxiarches -             4500
Merarches -            5500
Tourmarches -          6500
Hoplitarches -    8000
Stratopedarches -          9500
Protostrator -     11000
Protospatharios -         12500
Hypatos -                14000
Strategos -              16000
Domestikos tou thematos - 18000
Domestikos ton Scholon -   20000
Megas Domestikos -          22500
Exarchos -                      26000
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2008, 01:18:31 PM »

Is the Strategikon available in English?

There's only one english translation available by George Dennis, fortunately it's a very good translation with good notes and a good introduction.

http://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199379954&sr=8-1
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2008, 01:41:12 PM »

Great, now I can learn how to take over the world using 6th century tactics.
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 03:23:26 PM »

Great, now I can learn how to take over the world using 6th century tactics.

I wrote a paper for a military tactics class once comparing the Strategikon to Hart, Fuller, and Guderian. It actually measures up quite well to the doctrine of mobility and mobile warfare once you sift through all the minor details of training, troop discipline, and logistics specific to mounted warfare from the era in which it was written.
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 03:31:47 PM »

I wrote a paper for a military tactics class once comparing the Strategikon to Hart, Fuller, and Guderian. It actually measures up quite well to the doctrine of mobility and mobile warfare once you sift through all the minor details of training, troop discipline, and logistics specific to mounted warfare from the era in which it was written.

Just where would you take a class on military tactics?
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 03:47:09 PM »

Just where would you take a class on military tactics?

http://www.amu.apus.edu/index.htm
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 03:48:57 PM »


So right in front of your computer screen....like everything else? Wink
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2008, 04:31:06 PM »

So right in front of your computer screen....like everything else? Wink

Pretty much. One of the harder classes I took though, I couldn't rely on lectures and ignore the reading like I usually do, so I had to read eight books on military tactics in a semester and write an essay for each one plus my final essay on the strategikon. But, all in all, I enjoyed it and probably learned more than I did over 3 years at Holy Cross.
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2008, 07:32:34 PM »

good stuff!  Big fan!  Way to bring in the new year! 

Until the real new year actually happens...cough cough... Wink Grin
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2008, 08:32:29 PM »

good stuff!  Big fan!  Way to bring in the new year! 

Until the real new year actually happens...cough cough... Wink Grin

Calm down there Serbski.  We know that you guys never know when the real New Year comes - it's on your calendars, but your Schlivo glasses prevent you from reading them! Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 12:34:39 PM »

I like that...shlivo glasses. 

p.s.  I'm bringing you a ton of stuff on the way back to Boston.  Hope you're ready! 
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 01:11:31 PM »

I like that...shlivo glasses. 

p.s.  I'm bringing you a ton of stuff on the way back to Boston.  Hope you're ready! 

Oh goodness.  At least give me a bit of warning. Wink
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 01:22:24 PM »

^^I think you just got that warning, Cleveland!   Smiley

Serbski: y'know, Birmingham isn't all that far away from NE Ohio, if you think about things globally, which I'm certain you're encouraged to do at Holy Cross.

Therefore, perhaps I could argue that it'd be required for you to come to B'ham to drop off shlivo here, as any other behavior would indicate you just aren't integrating the teachings of the seminary into your life....and that would be a terrible thing for the seminary to hear, wouldn't it, seminarian?  Wink
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2008, 12:48:24 PM »

How about I just ship it to you...lol.  I will PM you about it.  I owe you one anyway. 


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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2008, 01:03:39 PM »

^^Brate, whatever is sent to me will only be used to honor you and your family!

Take abundant care and drive carefully!
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2008, 12:28:09 PM »

Hello,

Does anyone know what the color scheme for the new titles will be?
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2008, 03:37:48 PM »

Hello,

Does anyone know what the color scheme for the new titles will be?

No Smiley  I'd be quite appreciative if you'd like to put one together though!

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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2008, 04:19:00 PM »

We might not have enough colors to handle that many Wink
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2008, 01:09:28 PM »

I was always a personal fan of indigo....just thought i'd let you know. 

Ask crayola...maybe they'l help you guys out...lol.   Wink
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2008, 02:33:59 PM »

We might not have enough colors to handle that many Wink

But if we use the few colors we have with a more tiered approach to the stars, then maybe we can manage.

i.e.
Newbie - 1 yellow star
Jr. Member - 1 blue star
Member - 1 purple star
Sr. Member - 1 red star
Elder - 2 yellow star
High Elder - 2 blue star
OC.net Guru - 2 purple star
Archon - 2 red star
etc.

Leave the green stars for mods.
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2008, 12:10:07 AM »

I liked having a lot of starts with more posts.  Just my 2 cents. 
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2008, 11:39:04 AM »

Exarchos -                      26000

That's a lot of posts!  Shocked
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2008, 08:00:38 PM »

We are obviously shooting for the long term here.  lol. 

But I agree...that's a lot.  At this pace i'll hit that in 20 years or so.  give or take.   Wink
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2008, 01:03:20 PM »

Hello,

But if we use the few colors we have with a more tiered approach to the stars, then maybe we can manage.

i.e.
Newbie - 1 yellow star
Jr. Member - 1 blue star
Member - 1 purple star
Sr. Member - 1 red star
Elder - 2 yellow star
High Elder - 2 blue star
OC.net Guru - 2 purple star
Archon - 2 red star
etc.

Leave the green stars for mods.

I like that idea - especially since if one attains the rank of Exarchos they'll have an unwieldly 22 stars!!!!

For the colors, I'm still thinking of good colors for the different levels, but on the tiered star for each tier

level 1 - bronze star
level 2 - silver star
level 3 - gold star

i.e.
Newbie - 1 bronze star
Jr. Member - 1 silver star
Member - 1 gold star
Sr. Member - 2 bronze stars
Elder - 2 silver stars
High Elder - 2 gold stars
OC.net Guru - 3 bronze stars
Archon - 3 silver stars
etc.


Megas Domestikos will have 7 gold stars and for the Exarchos (so that the top posting person(s) won't be demoted to a bronze level, unless you add two more levels above it) there should be something extra special. Maybe diamonds instead of stars or some sort of animated coloring (if that is possible). Either way, we have several years to contemplate how to reward such a dedicated poster.

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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 01:15:48 PM »

We are obviously shooting for the long term here.  lol. 

But I agree...that's a lot.  At this pace i'll hit that in 20 years or so.  give or take.   Wink

Or you can just broaden your participation in all the wonderful threads that OC.net has to offer, and hit that number in 3 years of intense posting.  That's only 22 or 23 posts per day for 3 years... you can do it!
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 01:19:26 PM »

Hmm...I personally have troubles differentiating bronze from gold on computer screens, and the procedure outlined by Cleveland offers more color variations prior to needing to increase the number of stars, thereby forestalling the introduction of new symbols besides stars.

Good idea, though! Maybe laurel crowns would be after stars...or, maybe the Eschaton will occur prior to that point, too!
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 01:48:28 PM »

We can add different icons if someone wanted to come up with new ones Wink

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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 02:44:07 PM »

We can add different icons if someone wanted to come up with new ones Wink

Robert

Maybe have different colored smilies for the lowest levels, and move to stars for Archon and above, and shields for the mod team.
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 03:17:46 PM »

We can add different icons if someone wanted to come up with new ones Wink

Robert

We could always use military insignia to go along with the new titles...though sticking with the byzantine theme I'm entire sure of how concise and developed these things were at the time. Perhaps I'll try to do some research if I have time later.
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 03:40:09 PM »

It seems that GiC's recommendation is to change the rankings to the following order (setting aside, for a moment, the question about the Megas Domestikos):

Protokentarchos -    3500
Taxiarches -             4500
Merarches -            5500
Tourmarches -          6500
Hoplitarches -    8000
Stratopedarches -          9500
Protostrator -     11000
Protospatharios -         12500
Hypatos -                14000
Strategos -              16000
Domestikos tou thematos - 18000
Domestikos ton Scholon -   20000
Megas Domestikos -          22500
Exarchos -                      26000

I just want to bring this back up and ask - should we re-shuffle the titles to this order from the current order?
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 11:48:03 PM »

Hello,

Hmm...I personally have troubles differentiating bronze from gold on computer screens, and the procedure outlined by Cleveland offers more color variations prior to needing to increase the number of stars, thereby forestalling the introduction of new symbols besides stars.

Good idea, though! Maybe laurel crowns would be after stars...or, maybe the Eschaton will occur prior to that point, too!

Looking at some of the comments, can there be custom created icons for the stars??? If that were the case, going from bronze to gold would be easy - dull bronze and shimmering gold.

Or multiple non-metallic colors as cleveland suggested. I would only caution to avoid bright light colors - like yellow (it would be o.k. on stars I think) and lime green! Those are very hard to see on a computer screen - for me at least. For instance, at my current level of High Elder, my name is in a lime green - and I can't focus to read my own name. How will others now its me (which may be good camouflage in some instances Tongue).

Another possibility - with the theme of a tiered system - is assign a standard color for each tier and then add stars to a maximum and then change color and start with one star again.

i.e.
Newbie - 1 red star
Jr. Member - 2 red star
Member - 3 red star
Sr. Member - 4 red star
Elder - 5 red star
High Elder - 1 orange star
OC.net Guru - 2 orange star
Archon - 3 orange star
etc.

With a color scheme that goes up the EM scale (that's the science nerd in me coming out Cheesy):
red
orange
yellow
green
blue
purple

This many colors would be enough for 30 titles.


Whatever happens with the stars, I don't think it would be wise to continue with the current practice of assigning a new whole star for each level because - as I computed earlier - that would be a cumbersome 22 stars for the highest level! YIKES!!!
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2008, 11:51:55 PM »

Hello,

and shields for the mod team.

I think that is a splendid idea.
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2008, 01:17:29 PM »

We've readjusted the order of the titles as per GiC's suggestion:

Protokentarchos -    3500
Taxiarches -             4500
Merarches -            5500
Tourmarches -          6500
Hoplitarches -    8000
Stratopedarches -          9500
Protostrator -     11000
Protospatharios -         12500
Hypatos -                14000
Strategos -              16000
Domestikos tou thematos - 18000
Domestikos ton Scholon -   20000
Megas Domestikos -          22500
Exarchos -                      26000
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2008, 12:11:17 PM »

May  I ask why military & not civil ranks?
Anyway, if the case is not closed, my contribution:
1-Byzantine Army Ranks (6th-15th Century AD)
-Commander in Chief  of the Byzantine armed forces was the Emperor. When the Emperor was CiC of the armed forces on campaign, he was called Protostrator/Head of the Army.
-Second in command in the Army was the Strategos/General, of the Thema Anatolikon * (something like the Chief of Staff).
-Supreme Commander of the armed forces (Army & Navy) on campaign was the Megas Domesticos/Grand Domesticus  (if the Emperor was absent). If the Emperor was in charge of the campaign then Grand Domesticus was his lieutenant.
-Supreme Commander of the land forces on campaign was the Domesticos/Domesticus  (if the Emperor was absent). If the Emperor was in charge of the campaign then Domesticus was his Chief staff officer.
-Strategos/General was the military commander of the Thema (equivalent to the modern lieutenant general). This was the title of the Dukas/Duke , the civil administrator of the Thema, in war times. He was in charge of a force of 9,000 men. Generals carried a silver baton called matzuka
-Hypostrategos  was the Strategos' Executive Officer.
-Stratelates (either Merarches or Turmarches, division commander) was the military commander of the Turma (infantry) or Moira (Cavalry). Equivalent to the modern rank of major general.
-Chief of Infantry was the Magistros tou Pezikou, from the roman magister peditum, master of foot .
-Chief of Cavalry was the Magistros tou Ippikou, from the roman magister equitum, master of horse .
-Megas Hetairiarches/Grand Commander of the Companion troops, was the commander of the mercenary forces.
-The Drungarios (the rank sometimes appears as Drungares or Moirarches or Phalangarches-commander of a phalanx) was a rank equivalent to colonel.
-Viglator was the CO of the garrison troops in the capital.
-Akolouthos (lit. attendant) was the CO of the Varangian Guard.
-Tagmatarches (early rank: Tribunos, from the roman Tribunus. 8th-10th century AD: Tagmatarches. 12th-13th century: Taxiarches. 14th century: Komes ton Tagmaton/Count of the Battalions. Palaeologean period: Tagmatarches) , was the CO of the Tagma , the basic Byzantine unit to conduct war (battalion).
-Mensor or Mensurator was the surveyor in charge of the troop encampment.
-Anticensor was the officer in charge of the enginners.
-Sacellarios was the army paymaster (from the latin sacellium: The Imperial Mint)
-Cleisouriarches was the officer in charge of the troops guarding the mountain passes (from the Greek Cleisoura, mountain pass)
-Komes tes Kohortes/Count of Cohort was any Staff Officer.
-Komes/Count was the CO of a unit equivalent to 300 men (Kometeia/County). Note that the County was a military unit & not a district or province.
-Kentarchos/Centurion was the CO of 100 men (from the roman centurio). This rank appears also as Ekatontarchos , the Greek translation of Centurio.
-Dekarchos was the commander of 10 men.
-Pentarchos was the commander of 5 men.
-Ouragos , the rear-rank soldier.
-Stratiotes/soldier was the common soldier.
-Spatharios (lit. sword bearer) was the heavy armed soldier of an elite tagma or kometeia.
-Hetaeros/Companion was the mercenary soldier.
-Tetimemenos Kyres was the noble Knight (lit. noble lord).
Within the various rank groups (field, superior, general officers), it was common to address rank officers as Archon/Archontes in plural (ruler). To distinguish a civil from a military archon, a military officer would be addressed Archon apo Spathiou (Ruler of the Sword). People used to call the military archontes, "kephalades" (bullheaded, a depreciative remark). In the 10th century AD, the Strategos of the Theme of Lombardy was called Katepano, while the Strategos of occupied Bulgaria, Pronoetes.
The Historian Genessios , in 873 gives us an interesting episode, when describing the last moments before the soldiers of the Armeniakon (Armenian) & Chersianon or Chersonos (Cherson in the Crimea) Thema, attack the Persians:
"This is about a quarrel among the archontes [meaning the generals], which of the two armies is more gallant; and then the soldiers of the Armeniakon, the aristocrats of our army, said: "Gallantry is not measured in speechies; let us both rush headlong to the enemy and then we'll see who is the most valiant". The two generals asked the gathered troops: "Men, are you ready to compete with each other, and attack the enemy, so Help us God?" And they answered: "Yes, in the name of our Emperor". And with the thrilling cry "Stavros Nenikeken" [The Cross is the winner], they assaulted the enemy lines"

Stratopedarches was not a rank, rather a specialty; he was the officer incharge of the camp or the barracks.
Protospatharios was also not a rank; he was the officer responsible for the Imperial Palace.
Merarches-Turmarches--> the same rank. One was for Infantry, the other for Cavalry.

Proposal for use of civil ranks:
1-Megas Logothetis
2-Magistros ton Officion/Magister Officiorum
3-Eparchos tes Poleos/Praefectus Urbi
4-Koeaestor/Quaestor
5-Koeaestor tou Ierou Palatiou/Quaestor Sacri Palatii
6-Komes ton Theion Thesavron/Comes Sacrarum Largitionum
7-Primikerios ton Notarion/Protasikrites (Imperial Secretary)
8-Protonotarios
9-Papias tou Megalou Palatiou
10-Katepano ton Vasilikon
11-Strator
12-Chartoularios ton Malanginon
13-Chartoularios ton Eso
14-Epeiktes

*Thema Anatolikon (of the Orient), including parts of Phrygia, Lycaonia, Isauria, Pamphylia and Pisidia

Source: Vlassios Feidas, "Byzantium: Life, Institutions, Society, Church, Education, Art", Athens 1991
(PS: I received an 8 in his class; US equivalent: A-, I guess) 
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2008, 12:45:54 PM »

May  I ask why military & not civil ranks?

They sound cooler.

Stratopedarches was not a rank, rather a specialty; he was the officer incharge of the camp or the barracks.
Protospatharios was also not a rank; he was the officer responsible for the Imperial Palace.
Merarches-Turmarches--> the same rank. One was for Infantry, the other for Cavalry. 

Doesn't matter - the titles for post counts are not ranks, either; the only ranks are "Moderator," "Global Moderator," and "Administrator."  But I appreciate your thoroughness.

Your suggestion for Civil titles will be taken into consideration.  Don't be surprised if you see them pop up later on in addition to the current list.
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2008, 04:44:25 PM »

Yah...maybe we can do the military rank as the primary thing (in bold) and then the civil rank which is equivalent in parenthesis or something.  that would be cool. 

Plus you know everyone likes more titles.  lol.   Wink Grin
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2008, 08:35:47 PM »

Yah...maybe we can do the military rank as the primary thing (in bold) and then the civil rank which is equivalent in parenthesis or something.  that would be cool. 

Plus you know everyone likes more titles.  lol.   Wink Grin 

We've got some more titles for you... but this is a family site Wink
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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2008, 09:42:13 AM »

We've got some more titles for you... but this is a family site Wink

Since I know you just said that to one-up me and to be the rapscallion that you are, I give you this response (almost like a dual challenge). 

If you have such creative names for me, why don't you PM me about them... Wink Wink Grin Grin

(considering you will just make them up on the spot now...maybe you shouldn't.... Tongue Tongue)
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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2008, 11:39:52 PM »

Taxiarches
Isn't this title specifically for ArchAngel Michael as he is the commander of all the angels and protector of Orthodox Christians?  I thought it translated to The Brigadier General?
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