Author Topic: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues  (Read 4019 times)

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Offline _Seraphim_

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A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« on: December 31, 2007, 05:53:56 PM »
I was curious if anyone here has read this book:

Cosmic Grace, Humble Prayer:
The Ecological Vision of the Green Patriarch Bartholomew I


Here is Amazon’s description:
http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Grace-Humble-Prayer-Bartholomew/dp/0802821693/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199136883&sr=1-1

Is it just me, or does the Pope’s recent statements (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13881.0.html) about the environmental crisis (or the lack thereof) seem to go completely against the grain of Patriarch Bartholomew’s words in this book?  I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m just curious what others have to say about this (especially JoeS, the “Global Warming Enthusiast”  ;)).
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Offline JoeS

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 06:09:50 PM »
I was curious if anyone here has read this book:

Cosmic Grace, Humble Prayer:
The Ecological Vision of the Green Patriarch Bartholomew I


Here is Amazon’s description:
http://www.amazon.com/Cosmic-Grace-Humble-Prayer-Bartholomew/dp/0802821693/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199136883&sr=1-1

Is it just me, or does the Pope’s recent statements (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13881.0.html) about the environmental crisis (or the lack thereof) seem to go completely against the grain of Patriarch Bartholomew’s words in this book?  I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m just curious what others have to say about this (especially JoeS, the “Global Warming Enthusiast”  ;)).


Some folks need to study the major causes of climate change.

I stick by my words that man's influence on the environment is minimal at best. The major contributers to carbon in the air are the oceans and volcanic activity.

And I will restate that even though we only contribute upwards of 5% of any world climate changes we still should be good stewards of our surroundings. After all didnt God give us all that we have here?  No one is for dirty water, polluted streams, and the like.  We here in the U.S. have done a heck of a lot to improve our rivers, lakes, pesticides, plastic recycling, metals recycling etc etc and we can be proud of this.  We can and shouldnt sit on our laurels but continue to improve our little contributions to the environment.  But you cant cork volcanoes, you cant put plastic covers over oceans and the earth in spite of our worries will continue to go through cycles of warm and cold periods like it or not. 

Were there giant fossil fuel plants, major deforestation and SUV's before the land bridge across the Aleutian Islands lost it's ice shelf?   What caused that 10,000 years ago?  Something to ponder.

« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:12:10 PM by JoeS »

Offline observer

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 06:51:23 PM »
We need global warming even it's a fraud, co's we need global government.  Incidently there's been NO warming since 2001. Some suggest it's got colder.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 07:10:06 PM »
We need global warming even it's a fraud, co's we need global government. 

Well, I think that's really the issue.  The global warming extremists are such that want to create a world government built upon principles of neo-Marxism, ruled by leftist cultural elites who wish to foster a degradation of liberty and self-determination because they know what's best for us.  Without such alarmist issues in their arsenal, their calls for global government to "fix" it will fail.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 07:32:05 PM »
Without such alarmist issues in their arsenal, their calls for global government to "fix" it will fail.

Interesting observation.  I hadn't considered that.

This may be getting slightly too off-topic, but is there anything in Orthodox literature/tradition that speaks specifically of the anti-christ and one-world-government?  Is it correct to assume that it will be none other than the antichrist himself who initiates the first global government since the Tower of Babel?

Thank you all for your insight in this matter.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2007, 07:41:47 PM »
Interesting observation.  I hadn't considered that.

This may be getting slightly too off-topic, but is there anything in Orthodox literature/tradition that speaks specifically of the anti-christ and one-world-government?  Is it correct to assume that it will be none other than the antichrist himself who initiates the first global government since the Tower of Babel?

I don't know about what the Orthodox position is regarding one world government and the anti-christ.  Of course, a lot of this recent interest has to do with a milleniast interpretation of the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian as well as the Old Testament Prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel et al. which was made popular in the "Left Behind" series.

My main reason for opposition is because I believe in liberty and self-determination as sacrosanct and the global warming scare and the solutions proposed by those alarmists are direct threats to those fundamental rights.  Just mho.
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Offline Simayan

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2007, 07:47:06 PM »
Global rule is a very fussy term regarding the Anti-Christ, seeing as many Church services refer to the Roman Empire as ruling the entire world.

But as for this topic, I agree completely with Scamandrius. The last thing I want is some bureaucracy-laden focus group in Switzerland commanding how long I am allowed to drive my car before the UN-police come and firebomb my house for raping the planet.

A question about the EP, however. I haven't read much of his writing, but is he stating that humans are causing climate change, or that we should work to protect the environment?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 07:47:25 PM by Simayan »
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2007, 08:06:39 PM »
Here is some info to chew on...Wildland Fire Stats U.S.A, add those outside of the US

Do you think this affects the weather & climate ?


Year-to-date statistics
2007 (1/1/07 - 12/28/07) Fires: 85,583 Acres: 9,318,710
2006 (1/1/06 - 12/28/06)  Fires: 96,326 Acres: 9,871,863
2005 (1/1/05 - 12/28/05) Fires: 66,020 Acres: 8,681,252
2004 (1/1/04 - 12/28/04) Fires: 65,878 Acres: 8,094,531
2003 (1/1/03 - 12/28/03) Fires: 63,269 Acres: 3,959,223
2002 (1/1/02 - 12/28/02)  Fires: 73,423 Acres: 7,182,979
2001 (1/1/01 - 12/28/01) Fires: 83,996 Acres: 3,570,225
2000 (1/1/00 - 12/28/00) Fires: 92,250 Acres: 7,393,493
5-year average 
2003 - 2007 Fires: 75,415 Acres: 7,985,116
10-year average 
1997- 2006 Fires: 78,482 Acres: 7,904,524
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2007, 11:38:10 PM »
A question about the EP, however. I haven't read much of his writing, but is he stating that humans are causing climate change, or that we should work to protect the environment?

I've never heard or read him take the stance that humans are causing climate change; the only two points I've heard/read him make are (a) humans do damage to the environment, and (b) we are to be guardians of the planet.
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 07:18:35 AM »
I must be becoming jaded but I agree with this atheist's take on bishops on the ecological bandwagon... :-[


From the mouths of babes and atheists...

"Mankind is more than the janitor of planet Earth," writes Brendan O'Neill.  "I am avowedly atheist. But listening to the bishops' drab, eco-pious Christmas sermons, I couldn't help thinking: 'Bring back  God!'"

Read on...
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4217/

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 09:04:16 AM »
I must be becoming jaded but I agree with this atheist's take on bishops on the ecological bandwagon... :-[


From the mouths of babes and atheists...

"Mankind is more than the janitor of planet Earth," writes Brendan O'Neill.  "I am avowedly atheist. But listening to the bishops' drab, eco-pious Christmas sermons, I couldn't help thinking: 'Bring back  God!'"

Read on...
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/4217/ 

I don't know how much of a bandwagon cling it is RE: the Ecumenical Patriarch; he's been talking about ecology since his enthronement back in 1993.  Hence the sometimes-used nickname of "the Green Patriarch."
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Offline JoeS

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »
Here is some info to chew on...Wildland Fire Stats U.S.A, add those outside of the US

Do you think this affects the weather & climate ?


Year-to-date statistics
2007 (1/1/07 - 12/28/07) Fires: 85,583 Acres: 9,318,710
2006 (1/1/06 - 12/28/06)  Fires: 96,326 Acres: 9,871,863
2005 (1/1/05 - 12/28/05) Fires: 66,020 Acres: 8,681,252
2004 (1/1/04 - 12/28/04) Fires: 65,878 Acres: 8,094,531
2003 (1/1/03 - 12/28/03) Fires: 63,269 Acres: 3,959,223
2002 (1/1/02 - 12/28/02)  Fires: 73,423 Acres: 7,182,979
2001 (1/1/01 - 12/28/01) Fires: 83,996 Acres: 3,570,225
2000 (1/1/00 - 12/28/00) Fires: 92,250 Acres: 7,393,493
5-year average 
2003 - 2007 Fires: 75,415 Acres: 7,985,116
10-year average 
1997- 2006 Fires: 78,482 Acres: 7,904,524


Clear cutting is not allowed in many states, states that have large forests. It is a proven fact that the clear cutting down of dead trees and clearing debris can prevent extensive forest fires.  Does you study also say how many fires are started each year by nature (lightning)?  The Earth has the marvelous way of cleaning up the air after a forest fire or fires.   The smoke only stays in the air until the rain washes it down to earth.

Forest fires dont even come close to the carbons emitted from all the volcanoes that erupt each and every year. 


Offline Fr. George

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2008, 04:07:27 PM »
Clear cutting is not allowed in many states, states that have large forests. It is a proven fact that the clear cutting down of dead trees and clearing debris can prevent extensive forest fires.  Does you study also say how many fires are started each year by nature (lightning)?  The Earth has the marvelous way of cleaning up the air after a forest fire or fires.   The smoke only stays in the air until the rain washes it down to earth.

Clear cutting and debris removal also can accomplish what the forest fire does: removal of decomp material, which emits CO2 into the atmosphere.

Forest fires dont even come close to the carbons emitted from all the volcanoes that erupt each and every year.

This seems like an excellent point; do you have a reference that estimates the impact of yearly volcanic activity?  I'm very interested.
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Offline JoeS

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2008, 04:19:24 PM »
Clear cutting and debris removal also can accomplish what the forest fire does: removal of decomp material, which emits CO2 into the atmosphere.


I guess the greenies have a dilema dont they.

volcano
Long-term environmental effects

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-253598/volcano

« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 04:36:30 PM by JoeS »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2008, 04:33:42 PM »
I guess the greenies have a dilema dont they.

Facts (and common sense) have never stopped extremists from pressing forth with their radical agenda.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2008, 05:12:03 PM »
I guess the greenies have a dilema dont they.

volcano
Long-term environmental effects

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-253598/volcano 

Thanks for the link; I like the article.  It's a very interesting point, about the sulfur dioxide in the upper atmosphere.
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2008, 05:37:50 PM »
Global rule is a very fussy term regarding the Anti-Christ, seeing as many Church services refer to the Roman Empire as ruling the entire world.

Can you site a few instances?

A couple thoughts:

1) Could it be said that in light of modern technology allowing us to literally see the entire globe that a more proper wording of the text would be:
“the entire [known] world [of the Romans at that time]”?

2) Do the Oriental Orthodox also have this reference to Rome in their service texts as well?

The birth of the satellite has opened up for all humanity an opportunity to view the entire globe.  There’s no more question as to what the “known world” is.  Although the nations of the earth are not united, they are, for the first time since the Tower of Babel, completely and fully aware of where everyone else is.  We may not be fully united, but we are fully aware of each other.  All the cards are on the table.  The birth of the internet has allowed us to begin transcending the cultural borders of communication.  Everything is coming together… its only a matter of time for the next and final stage.  God be with us, strengthen us, and protect us in the trials that are to come.

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Offline Quinault

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2008, 05:52:42 PM »
Mt tribe has "allotments" for each enrolled tribal member. They harvest the timber and then use all the proceeds to run the (cough..corrupt...cough) tribal goverment.

I also live in the "evergreen state." I have heard more about the global crisis than I care to hear. And here the global warming crisis is LITERALLY blamed on people having children!

I really don't belive in the "global warming" crisis. BUT I do think that we need to be better caretakers of our enviroment. One of my FAVORITE books on the subject is; Pollution and the death of man by Francis (not Frank, not Franky...his daddy) Schaeffer.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 05:54:31 PM by Quinault »

Offline Quinault

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2008, 05:57:26 PM »
Here is an article, while not actually written here in the NW, it could have been.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1752235.ece

Quote
HAVING large families should be frowned upon as an environmental misdemeanour in the same way as frequent long-haul flights, driving a 4x4 car and failing to reuse plastic bags, according to a report to be published tomorrow by a green think tank.

The paper by the Optimum Population Trust (OPT) will say that if couples had two children instead of three they could cut their family’s carbon dioxide output by the equivalent of 620 return flights a year between London and New York
 

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2008, 06:05:43 PM »
Are we supposed to believe that climate is not subject to change? It ebbs and flows, it is cyclical.

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2008, 07:07:25 PM »
Here is an article, while not actually written here in the NW, it could have been.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1752235.ece


What a bunch of kooks!
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2008, 07:09:18 PM »
Here is an article, while not actually written here in the NW, it could have been.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1752235.ece


Let these crazies follow their own draconian philosophy. In a twenty years or so, when they have brought their movment to extinction due to having no children, we will no longer hear anymore about their environmental religion.  8)

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2008, 07:18:16 PM »
Let these crazies follow their own draconian philosophy. In a twenty years or so, when they have brought their movment to extinction due to having no children, we will no longer hear anymore about their environmental religion.  8)

Regardless of whether this particular group dies out or not, their idea will ultimately win due to economic forces.  The death of the family farm, urbanization and lowering of infant mortality rates will likely cause the average family size to dramatically shrink around the world. 

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2008, 08:00:24 PM »
Regardless of whether this particular group dies out or not, their idea will ultimately win due to economic forces.  The death of the family farm, urbanization and lowering of infant mortality rates will likely cause the average family size to dramatically shrink around the world. 

As long as it is never considered a crime to have a child or to have as many children as one desires. The Chinese used draconian financial incentives to insure each family would have one child. Many Chinese couples aborted any baby girls in order to have a boy. From what  I have read there is now shortage of women due to these measures.

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2008, 08:38:20 PM »
I stick by my words that man's influence on the environment is minimal at best. 

And you're welcome to your opinion, which is decidedly in the minority in the scientific community today.
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2008, 08:44:22 PM »
Well, I think that's really the issue.  The global warming extremists are such that want to create a world government built upon principles of neo-Marxism, ruled by leftist cultural elites who wish to foster a degradation of liberty and self-determination because they know what's best for us.  Without such alarmist issues in their arsenal, their calls for global government to "fix" it will fail.

R-i-ght.  Those Russkies are trying to compromise our precious bodily fluids as well.  Do you know when the floridation of water was introduced?  1946.  Some coincidence, isn't it?  Just when the cold war was beginning.  We all know that water floridation is a plot by leftist extremists to compromise the purity of our drinking water, and hence that of our precious bodily fluids.  I know that this is true, because I saw a movie about it on T.V. once.   ::)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 09:21:28 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2008, 08:58:59 PM »
R-i-ght.  Those Russkies are trying to compromise our precious bodily fluids as well.  Do you know when the floridation of water was introduced?  1946.  Some coincidence, isn't it?  Just when the cold war was beginning.  We all know that water floridation is a plot by leftist extremists to compromise the purity of our drinking water, and hence that of our precious bodily fluids.  I know that this is true, because I saw a movie about it on T.V. once.
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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2008, 09:07:44 PM »
As long as it is never considered a crime to have a child or to have as many children as one desires. The Chinese used draconian financial incentives to insure each family would have one child. Many Chinese couples aborted any baby girls in order to have a boy. From what  I have read there is now shortage of women due to these measures.

The male to female ratio is way off in China because of selective abortions.  But, it is now illegal (with it's own set of draconian measures) to procure an abortion simply because the child is female and there are even restrictions now on who can obtain ultrasounds to try to prevent selective abortion. 

I agree that force should not be used.  Social conditions will create a far more effective way of bringing the birth rate in a nation to a more manageable level.  Still I question the ideal of / romanticized large family as the social conditions that at one time required a large family largely don't exist anymore in the developed world.  While the quoted article was very leftist and written in such a manner as to be offensive in making its point - I do still think it is a valid point that for people living in urban and developed societies, a large family is just as much of a luxury and drain on scare resources as things commonly perceived as luxuries. 


Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2008, 09:19:31 PM »
Clear cutting is not allowed in many states, states that have large forests. It is a proven fact that the clear cutting down of dead trees and clearing debris can prevent extensive forest fires. 

 Forest fires are actually necessary for the health and continuity of forest ecosystems.  Small clear cuts can be a good way to extract timber and be moderately helpful in certain parts of some forests, but large ones as employed in some sectors of the forestry industry are never a good thing.

Quote
Clear cutting and debris removal also can accomplish what the forest fire does: removal of decomp material, which emits CO2 into the atmosphere.

A clear cut will accomplish some, but not all, of what a fire does.  One thing that it does not do is create chemical changes in the soil that is necessary to help new growth sprout and grow; a forest fire does.  There are many other beneficial effects of forest fires.  One other one is that some evergreen trees cannot germinate unless there is intense heat present; these species, and indeed the entire forest ecosystem, is used to living with fire as a integral "partner" in the rejeuvenation of the forest.  Debris left by fires is very helpful in terms of providing fertiliser for new shrubs and habitat for animals.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 09:22:48 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2008, 09:20:47 PM »
This needs one of them sarcasm smileys.  Something like  ::)

Okay!  You got it.   ;)
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2008, 09:46:16 PM »
A clear cut will accomplish some, but not all, of what a fire does.  One thing that it does not do is create chemical changes in the soil that is necessary to help new growth sprout and grow; a forest fire does.  There are many other beneficial effects of forest fires.  One other one is that some evergreen trees cannot germinate unless there is intense heat present; these species, and indeed the entire forest ecosystem, is used to living with fire as a integral "partner" in the rejeuvenation of the forest.  Debris left by fires is very helpful in terms of providing fertiliser for new shrubs and habitat for animals. 

True.  IIRC, there are some species of tree that are more fire-resistant than others, which allows healthier trees to survive minor natural fires that dead and sick trees are not able to.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2008, 11:56:26 AM »
And you're welcome to your opinion, which is decidedly in the minority in the scientific community today.

Consensus of the majority does not determine scientific validity.  Otherwise, we would have been geocentrists up until only 100 years ago.  And with the rise of "skeptics" coming out in response to the alarmists' klaxon of late, I don't think the scientific community is heavily one way or the other, but close to split down the middle.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: A book by Patriarch Bartholomew on Ecological issues
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2008, 01:35:37 AM »
And with the rise of "skeptics" coming out in response to the alarmists' klaxon of late, I don't think the scientific community is heavily one way or the other, but close to split down the middle.

It is not primarily a political debate.  If you want, you can check out the "pope condems climate change prophets of doom" thread for my post dated today to see what I mean when I say this.


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